[coastie65]

I got ME3 on the SSD, but lost all my game play in the process. I didn't want to start all over although the game is fun. I had a lot of time invested in that thing. Oh well.

[LiveBrianD]

@waldojim
The problem here is that most people will NOT be running Windows 8 on a tablet! On a desktop or laptop, just rush the mouse up to the top right corner and click to close a program. Easy, right? Or, for instance, shutting down - who the hell thought that out in win8? And also, the UI makes a bit of sense on a tablet with a windows button on it. On a desktop or laptop, it makes no sense hitting that keyboard key to switch between, say, the home screen and an open app. Also, didn't YOU say that you DON'T TRUST THE CLOUD and don't use it? What if you don't always have an internet connection when you need to work? (ex. you have a laptop and you take it on public transportation and use it on the way to work) And if I want documents on all my devices, I can use windows live mesh or dropbox (which I already do for smaller files).

OK, I'll try win8 on the x120e soon enough. I have to warn you though, I tried the dev preview on that once it first came out, and reverted back to the disk image I'd taken of win7 earlier just a few hours later. (due to metro)

This post has been edited by LiveBrianD: 29 March 2012 - 02:44 PM

[compnovo]

coastie65, on 29 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

I got ME3 on the SSD, but lost all my game play in the process. I didn't want to start all over although the game is fun. I had a lot of time invested in that thing. Oh well.

I feel your pain.
When I installed Win7 64-bit I lost all my savegames for Batman: Arkum Asylum, and I was almost done. I don't know if I'll ever finish it now.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 29 March 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

@waldojim
The problem here is that most people will NOT be running Windows 8 on a tablet! On a desktop or laptop, just rush the mouse up to the top right corner and click to close a program. Easy, right? Or, for instance, shutting down - who the hell thought that out in win8? And also, the UI makes a bit of sense on a tablet with a windows button on it. On a desktop or laptop, it makes no sense hitting that keyboard key to switch between, say, the home screen and an open app. Also, didn't YOU say that you DON'T TRUST THE CLOUD and don't use it? What if you don't always have an internet connection when you need to work? (ex. you have a laptop and you take it on public transportation and use it on the way to work) And if I want documents on all my devices, I can use windows live mesh or dropbox (which I already do for smaller files).

OK, I'll try win8 on the x120e soon enough. I have to warn you though, I tried the dev preview on that once it first came out, and reverted back to the disk image I'd taken of win7 earlier just a few hours later. (due to metro)

I never said they would. The difference you aren't understanding, is that Microsoft is changing how we use our machines. Closing programs? WHY BOTHER?! YOU DON'T NEED TO. If you DO feel compelled to close it, then drag it real quick like, and move on. On top of this, You are less likely to close the WRONG program on accident.

Again, they are changing the way we think. There is absolutely no reason to turn off the average PC. Let it drop into an S3 sleep state. It uses next to no power, and resumes almost instantly. Use your PC like you would a MAC.

I never said I trusted the cloud. That does NOT change what they are trying to do. That also doesn't change the intended results, and how well those results can work out. Think about this from the perspective of the average user. Say someone in college! You have a laptop with ALL of your work, and someone steals it, or it doesn't sleep correctly and your battery dies. NOW WHAT? You have nothing. With the new MS way of doing things, you still have all your work, just log into another Windows 8 device, or your skydrive.

[LiveBrianD]

Hey, if you don't want to close programs in win7, you don't have to either. Plus, it's a whole lot easier to see what's open or not. Often, I have several windows open and a dozen or more browser tabs. That will be a mess in metro. In win7, it's not even a miniscule issue. How often have you closed the wrong program on accident?

Also, you also have to go through that unobvious charms bar and crap to put the PC in sleep. (unless you set the power button to do that) Personally, I don't want my PC drawing a few watts while not in use, and thus I shut it down and turn off the power strip if I'm not going to use it for more than a few hours.

If I were in college and someone stole my laptop with my work on it, since I use Dropbox, I can easily login to that from another machine, download the document, and continue working. (windows live skydrive can also be used on that, even on an XP machine) I don't need win8, with it's crippled tablet UI, to do that. Fyi, on machines XP and up you can login to skydrive from a web browser and open a document in word on the local machine, saving all the changes to skydrive as you work.

There's no excuse for crippling the entire OS for just a few features that you can get on previous versions just as easily, along with a much more logical UI. As I said, there's a reason why no other company has tried this before, not even Apple.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 29 March 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Hey, if you don't want to close programs in win7, you don't have to either. Plus, it's a whole lot easier to see what's open or not. Often, I have several windows open and a dozen or more browser tabs. That will be a mess in metro. In win7, it's not even a miniscule issue. How often have you closed the wrong program on accident?

Actually, you missed it entirely. With Windows 8, the mess is cleaned up. Instead of a task bar cluttered with a bunch of senseless icons, you get a full screen with your active application (plus side app if you desire) AND you get snapshots of the other apps, not a senseless icon. Much more useful. How often have I accidentally closed the wrong program? More than I want to admit to. And if you think about it, I would bet you have too.

Quote

Also, you also have to go through that unobvious charms bar and crap to put the PC in sleep. (unless you set the power button to do that) Personally, I don't want my PC drawing a few watts while not in use, and thus I shut it down and turn off the power strip if I'm not going to use it for more than a few hours.

Charms have become my friend. I can search for things like a mad-man now. It is insanely nice to have. I don't use charms to put my machine to sleep either, Windows does that on its own. Most people don't bother with that routine every time they walk away. Most just turn it off, then turn it back on when they return a few hours later. This is a waste. Just let it idle down, and eventually sleep. You are talking about $.5/yr on your electric bill - IF THAT.

Quote

If I were in college and someone stole my laptop with my work on it, since I use Dropbox, I can easily login to that from another machine, download the document, and continue working. (windows live skydrive can also be used on that, even on an XP machine) I don't need win8, with it's crippled tablet UI, to do that. Fyi, on machines XP and up you can login to skydrive from a web browser and open a document in word on the local machine, saving all the changes to skydrive as you work.

Is your work automatically synced, and ready to go? No. You have to take time to do that. Are your documents secured against theft? Nope. Once the thief has your XP machine, he can fire up a wonderful Linux disc, change your Windows password, and keep right on using your Windows machine - documents included.

Quote

There's no excuse for crippling the entire OS for just a few features that you can get on previous versions just as easily, along with a much more logical UI. As I said, there's a reason why no other company has tried this before, not even Apple.

The OS isn't crippled. No matter how you want to sensationalize it. It is faster, lighter, and more powerful than anything I have seen out of Microsoft in MANY years.

[mjd420nova]

After all is said and done, many more hours need to be spent in boosting the speeds of every part of a PC. Many more on board (locked -down) peripheral drivers and more machine cycles it takes for a device to respond if it is working properly. The BIOS size and speed are the bottom of the pile upon which you build and expand as dictated by drivers and interupt routines. I am very much impressed with the speed and readiness of the WIN7 platform. Under ten second loading and is there for any function. getting used to the "work tray" I call it, can be likened to some of the multiple tasks on the task bar. The i5 Intel with 4GB memory and a 500 GB drive Plain vanila. Bells and whistles galore. Over 1.3 GB video memory sold me. This thing is quick. I have actually reached the limits of my DSL line. They won't throttle me, they'll come looking with a garot.

[LiveBrianD]

Quote

Actually, you missed it entirely. With Windows 8, the mess is cleaned up. Instead of a task bar cluttered with a bunch of senseless icons, you get a full screen with your active application (plus side app if you desire) AND you get snapshots of the other apps, not a senseless icon. Much more useful. How often have I accidentally closed the wrong program? More than I want to admit to. And if you think about it, I would bet you have too.

The problem is that if I have a ton of stuff open, those huge icon previews waste a bunch of space. Want a preview of a window that's open in Vista or win7? Push Alt+Tab. (or Start+Tab, though in some ways I don't think that's as practical. I still use it a bit though.)

Quote

Charms have become my friend. I can search for things like a mad-man now. It is insanely nice to have. I don't use charms to put my machine to sleep either, Windows does that on its own. Most people don't bother with that routine every time they walk away. Most just turn it off, then turn it back on when they return a few hours later. This is a waste. Just let it idle down, and eventually sleep. You are talking about $.5/yr on your electric bill - IF THAT.

I don't see a huge advantage to the charms bar, though I guess it's not a bad idea either. The thing is, if they had integrated some of those metro features into the regular desktop UI, KEEPING the start menu, things would be better. Also, if Windows puts the machine to sleep on it's own, how much energy are you wasting in the meantime, waiting for it to do that? Or if you are using a laptop and need to put it away and take it somewhere? Are you going to keep wasting battery? I prefer to manually do that. It's easy enough anyway (at least in win7, not so in win8). Also, are you sure about 5 cents a year? In my area, electricity is on average 12 cents/KWh (certainly, it might be lower where you live). Let's say your PC sleeps after 15 minutes and uses 80 watts while idle and you do that twice a day. In that case, that's 7.3KWh wasted, which is actually more like 87.6 cents. That's not much, but still, you're putting extra load on the grid, extra pollution, and you're helping to wear out the fans and stuff in your PC just a little bit more. Granted, it's not that big of a deal, but why?

Quote

Is your work automatically synced, and ready to go? No. You have to take time to do that. Are your documents secured against theft? Nope. Once the thief has your XP machine, he can fire up a wonderful Linux disc, change your Windows password, and keep right on using your Windows machine - documents included.

Are my documents synced? Yep. As soon as I hit the save button in ms word, my documents get synced. Btw, for bookmarks, windows live mesh suffices (for IE anyway), otherwise you can use xmarks. Again, if you're so concerned about keeping sensitive documents on the hard drive, put them on skydrive and edit them in the browser, or use the 'open with word' button (which keeps the document on the remote server and saves it to that). OK, certainly, in XP, Vista, or win7 the thief has your documents. But as said, what about if you NEED the documents offline? If you need them offline, there's no protection, and things are just like previous versions of windows.

Quote

The OS isn't crippled. No matter how you want to sensationalize it. It is faster, lighter, and more powerful than anything I have seen out of Microsoft in MANY years.

I never said it was bloated or slow. From my experience, even in a VM, it's exactly the opposite. However, the UI is unintuitive in quite a few ways. It's designed first and foremost for tablets, which most people DON'T HAVE. Do you think most people are going to adopt well to the learning curve? What if I don't want something filling my entire 23" monitor? (and a VERY limited ability to run 2 apps at once doesn't really count) And what about the very unintuitive way to switch programs? (compared to previous versions) How are most people going to adopt to that. Heck, just this morning, I was helping one of my teachers burn a few files to a cd (in win7). As it is, she was a bit confused on how to do that. Put a completely different UI, with all sorts of unobvious stuff (charms bar, hot corners) in front of a person like that, and do you think they'll respond well to it?

Here's what I think they should do:
-keep the start menu in the desktop UI (and let you disable metro), and actually put an icon in there for it
-put a task switcher in metro that's like the current start menu or something like that, perhaps with 'auto-hide' enabled, like you can currently do (or have small icons at the bottom, and have them become much bigger thumbnails if you mouse over them)
-maybe integrate some metro features into the desktop UI (charms bar?)
-keep all the under-the-hood improvements (for instance, hibernating kernel upon shutdown, native usb 3.0, etc)
-disable metro by default unless you have a tablet
-get rid of most of the hot corners
-allow people to, say, use the mail client WITHOUT needing a microsoft account
-get rid of the ads and microsoft store content in the front of the music and video apps (maybe do it like the zune program - a tab with your library, and then another tab with the store in it)
-allow people to not auto-hide IE's controls if they want
-make it easier and more obvious how to multitask in metro

[waldojim]

mjd420nova, on 29 March 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

After all is said and done, many more hours need to be spent in boosting the speeds of every part of a PC. Many more on board (locked -down) peripheral drivers and more machine cycles it takes for a device to respond if it is working properly. The BIOS size and speed are the bottom of the pile upon which you build and expand as dictated by drivers and interupt routines. I am very much impressed with the speed and readiness of the WIN7 platform. Under ten second loading and is there for any function. getting used to the "work tray" I call it, can be likened to some of the multiple tasks on the task bar. The i5 Intel with 4GB memory and a 500 GB drive Plain vanila. Bells and whistles galore. Over 1.3 GB video memory sold me. This thing is quick. I have actually reached the limits of my DSL line. They won't throttle me, they'll come looking with a garot.

Time for FIOS?

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 29 March 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

The problem is that if I have a ton of stuff open, those huge icon previews waste a bunch of space. Want a preview of a window that's open in Vista or win7? Push Alt+Tab. (or Start+Tab, though in some ways I don't think that's as practical. I still use it a bit though.)

Until you actually use it the way it is meant to be used, you probably can't understand. I have completely switched my machine over to Windows 8, and actually use it every day. This has given me time to adjust and appreciate what they were going for.

Quote

I don't see a huge advantage to the charms bar, though I guess it's not a bad idea either. The thing is, if they had integrated some of those metro features into the regular desktop UI, KEEPING the start menu, things would be better. Also, if Windows puts the machine to sleep on it's own, how much energy are you wasting in the meantime, waiting for it to do that? Or if you are using a laptop and need to put it away and take it somewhere? Are you going to keep wasting battery? I prefer to manually do that. It's easy enough anyway (at least in win7, not so in win8). Also, are you sure about 5 cents a year? In my area, electricity is on average 12 cents/KWh (certainly, it might be lower where you live). Let's say your PC sleeps after 15 minutes and uses 80 watts while idle and you do that twice a day. In that case, that's 7.3KWh wasted, which is actually more like 87.6 cents. That's not much, but still, you're putting extra load on the grid, extra pollution, and you're helping to wear out the fans and stuff in your PC just a little bit more. Granted, it's not that big of a deal, but why?

The machine idles at 100watts for about 10 minutes, then goes to sleep. I would save more money on my electric bill reverting to stock clocks than turning off my machine. My laptop will sleep for an entire month. Forgive me if I don't worry about a 3% battery drop in a single day from it sleeping. I pay 7 cents/kwh here. And I am sorry if you are forced to conclude that 7 cents a month is too drastic an impact on your electric bill. Mine varies quite a bit as it is, and I don't notice 7 cents here or there. Also, I use 100% naturally derived renewable energy (solar / wind /etc), so I have absolutely no concern for pollution either. Then again, the pollution argument wouldn't work on me anyway. I use a pickup truck to travel to work every day, and I ride it like all hell broke loose. My tires show the obvious premature wear of cornering at 50+ and squealing tires around corners, and even lighting up tires through entire intersections. I ride my truck the way I handle everything in life: Hard and fast!

Quote

Are my documents synced? Yep. As soon as I hit the save button in ms word, my documents get synced. Btw, for bookmarks, windows live mesh suffices (for IE anyway), otherwise you can use xmarks. Again, if you're so concerned about keeping sensitive documents on the hard drive, put them on skydrive and edit them in the browser, or use the 'open with word' button (which keeps the document on the remote server and saves it to that). OK, certainly, in XP, Vista, or win7 the thief has your documents. But as said, what about if you NEED the documents offline? If you need them offline, there's no protection, and things are just like previous versions of windows.

There is a certain amount of offline caching, I am fairly certain of that, will test later with the laptop. But then again, how often do I find myself with no internet? Never.

Quote

I never said it was bloated or slow. From my experience, even in a VM, it's exactly the opposite. However, the UI is unintuitive in quite a few ways. It's designed first and foremost for tablets, which most people DON'T HAVE. Do you think most people are going to adopt well to the learning curve? What if I don't want something filling my entire 23" monitor? (and a VERY limited ability to run 2 apps at once doesn't really count) And what about the very unintuitive way to switch programs? (compared to previous versions) How are most people going to adopt to that. Heck, just this morning, I was helping one of my teachers burn a few files to a cd (in win7). As it is, she was a bit confused on how to do that. Put a completely different UI, with all sorts of unobvious stuff (charms bar, hot corners) in front of a person like that, and do you think they'll respond well to it?

In a virtual machine, you would have problems with the UI. In the real world, it is smooth as butter, and easy as sin. It was designed for ALL mobile devices. USE YOUR TRACKPAD ONCE, or the trackpoint. You have no idea the difference Windows will make when using them. What learning curve? It took a single video from MS showing the basics for me to completely grasp everything and move on. Un-intuitive task switching? Yep Alt+tab was intuitive, more so than move mouse to corner and select the pretty picture of the app you want. Much less intuitive than "which icon was that again? I have four of them that all look alike!"

Sorry, you entered into this with a preconcived notion, and are not interested in seeing something new or out of the norm. I would have expected this if you were Coasties age (no offense Coastie ) But from a young punk, this makes me think you are just afraid of learning something new.

Quote

Here's what I think they should do:
-keep the start menu in the desktop UI (and let you disable metro), and actually put an icon in there for it
-put a task switcher in metro that's like the current start menu or something like that, perhaps with 'auto-hide' enabled, like you can currently do (or have small icons at the bottom, and have them become much bigger thumbnails if you mouse over them)
-maybe integrate some metro features into the desktop UI (charms bar?)
-keep all the under-the-hood improvements (for instance, hibernating kernel upon shutdown, native usb 3.0, etc)
-disable metro by default unless you have a tablet
-get rid of most of the hot corners
-allow people to, say, use the mail client WITHOUT needing a microsoft account
-get rid of the ads and microsoft store content in the front of the music and video apps (maybe do it like the zune program - a tab with your library, and then another tab with the store in it)
-allow people to not auto-hide IE's controls if they want
-make it easier and more obvious how to multitask in metro

1. No. Leave it as it is, as people need to learn to move on and let go. Otherwise we will end up with stuff that is 20 years old again and never changing - Like all the Windows 3.11 elements still chilling in XP.
2. Again, no. The point of the desktop was only to give you a means to run older applications. Give people everything there, and they won't bother using windows the way it was intended.
3. What did you think they intended? To go back to the old kernel?
4. AH HELL NAW. Don't fark with the current task switcher. It is freaking gorgeous and makes life NICE.
5. Again, NO. WHY? Because the corners are what make the CLEAN, NAKED UI work.
6. If you really want this, I am sure there will be apps for that.
7. Not likely to happen, though I don't think advertising has a place in the desktop.
8. Leave the new tools alone.
9. There is nothing to make easier or more obvious... unless the user is obtuse and makes a concentrated effort to not see how it works.

[LiveBrianD]

Quote

Until you actually use it the way it is meant to be used, you probably can't understand. I have completely switched my machine over to Windows 8, and actually use it every day. This has given me time to adjust and appreciate what they were going for.

Except that just doesn't fit the way I like to use my computer. Why should I have to change my ways when the old way worked better?

Quote

The machine idles at 100watts for about 10 minutes, then goes to sleep. I would save more money on my electric bill reverting to stock clocks than turning off my machine. My laptop will sleep for an entire month. Forgive me if I don't worry about a 3% battery drop in a single day from it sleeping. I pay 7 cents/kwh here. And I am sorry if you are forced to conclude that 7 cents a month is too drastic an impact on your electric bill. Mine varies quite a bit as it is, and I don't notice 7 cents here or there. Also, I use 100% naturally derived renewable energy (solar / wind /etc), so I have absolutely no concern for pollution either. Then again, the pollution argument wouldn't work on me anyway. I use a pickup truck to travel to work every day, and I ride it like all hell broke loose. My tires show the obvious premature wear of cornering at 50+ and squealing tires around corners, and even lighting up tires through entire intersections. I ride my truck the way I handle everything in life: Hard and fast! public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Hmm... in my case, I have the monitor turn off after 5 minutes (on the laptop it also dims after 2), and sleep after 30 (on the laptop I think it sleeps after 15 when on battery). I still don't see why I shouldn't be able to easily make the machine sleep or turn off. Just today, I brought my laptop to school and used it a bit during lunch. When I was done, I put it in sleep and shoved it in my backpack. In win8, if I'm supposed to wait for the machine to sleep on it's own, how will this work? Is it supposed to just keep running for a little while in there, wasting battery and getting really hot? Btw oddly enough, my laptop only sleeps for about 4 or 5 days before running out of battery. The battery was 56Wh, now about 48Wh, and uses 8W while idle and up to 17W when under full load according to batterybar. (I undervolted it a little.)

Quote

There is a certain amount of offline caching, I am fairly certain of that, will test later with the laptop. But then again, how often do I find myself with no internet? Never.

Still, the internet can go down. Maybe you need to go on a trip and work on stuff, or as I said you use public transportation and may need to use it there, and you aren't online. Caching just isn't as good as having the regular file on the laptop, perhaps along with online synchronization, like dropbox. And remember, YOU said you didn't trust the cloud, yet here you're praising it. Hypocrite...

Quote

In a virtual machine, you would have problems with the UI. In the real world, it is smooth as butter, and easy as sin. It was designed for ALL mobile devices. USE YOUR TRACKPAD ONCE, or the trackpoint. You have no idea the difference Windows will make when using them. What learning curve? It took a single video from MS showing the basics for me to completely grasp everything and move on. Un-intuitive task switching? Yep Alt+tab was intuitive, more so than move mouse to corner and select the pretty picture of the app you want. Much less intuitive than "which icon was that again? I have four of them that all look alike!"

Sorry, you entered into this with a preconcived notion, and are not interested in seeing something new or out of the norm. I would have expected this if you were Coasties age (no offense Coastie public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif ) But from a young punk, this makes me think you are just afraid of learning something new.

As I said, NOT everyone has a tablet, and NOT everyone has a laptop. (and when I'm on my laptop, I often plug in a regular mouse, though when I take it places I usually don't bother with that) And sure, while alt+tab might seem as intuitive, it's been used since Windows 95 and a LOT of people know about it. Linux distros also typically have it. OS X has something pretty similar (command+tab I think). And also, doing a full shutdown and turning off my PC's power strip also means that if I get a power surge, there's a much lower chance that the PC was (effectively) plugged in when it happened. And no, icons do not look alike at all in my opinion.

I'll admit, even in a virtual machine, performance is pretty good compared to win7. Yes, I know most people don't use VMs (or even know what one is), but for the few that do, it is a bit of a pain. Running OSes like ubuntu, XP, or w7 in VMs, I don't have that issue at all. (For instance, I use VMs when referencing stuff in XP for tech support purposes.)

I think it might be cool if they had metro tiles, like sidebar gadgets, on the desktop, and you got actual windows, perhaps with some metro theming, when you clicked on them. (for instance, the Zune app has some of that) That would be the best of both worlds. And, perhaps they could have a button there that you click to get a metro screen with all your installed programs (that just takes over the desktop itself, not the taskbar), to make it easy to launch stuff, perhaps with status updates and such on the tiles like metro has. As I said, this isn't necessarily change for the better. There are good ways they can implement metro ideas, they just chose not to use them. Perhaps I'll make some mockups of what I mean and post them.

Quote

1. No. Leave it as it is, as people need to learn to move on and let go. Otherwise we will end up with stuff that is 20 years old again and never changing - Like all the Windows 3.11 elements still chilling in XP.
2. Again, no. The point of the desktop was only to give you a means to run older applications. Give people everything there, and they won't bother using windows the way it was intended.
3. What did you think they intended? To go back to the old kernel?
4. AH HELL NAW. Don't fark with the current task switcher. It is freaking gorgeous and makes life NICE.
5. Again, NO. WHY? Because the corners are what make the CLEAN, NAKED UI work.
6. If you really want this, I am sure there will be apps for that.
7. Not likely to happen, though I don't think advertising has a place in the desktop.
8. Leave the new tools alone.
9. There is nothing to make easier or more obvious... unless the user is obtuse and makes a concentrated effort to not see how it works.

1. The start menu works beautifully, why get rid of it? That's SURE to get rid of productivity with a lot of people. Metro is just stupid in a lot of cases. Gee, if it isn't broken, why not break it?
2. Why should people be forced to use metro when it is unintuitive and stupid?
3. No... I think that they should keep the current kernel and stuff, but just offer a more intuitive task switcher in metro.
4. ditto
5. How are most people supposed to figure that out?
7. Yep... in a paid product, ads are unacceptable. I feel it should be one OR the other, NOT both. Just like tivo - you pay plenty for the actual device, AND you pay a subscription fee, AND there is an ad on the homescreen. wtf? I don't think the Zune app has that either.
8. Why? Hiding the controls is silly. In other OSes (Win7, linux, etc), do you constantly use your browser in fullscreen mode? I know I don't, and there's a reason for it.
9. It's still harder than it has to be. The point here is not to make things as hard as you possibly can while still having (most) people understand it.

(I'm assuming you didn't respond to the 4th one there... maybe I should've numbered those so responses wouldn't be so confusing.)



"I would have expected this if you were Coasties age (no offense Coastie ) But from a young punk, this makes me think you are just afraid of learning something new."
Young punk?

This post has been edited by LiveBrianD: 29 March 2012 - 06:24 PM

[LiveBrianD]

How about something like this?
http://img715.images...pappsmockup.png

Yes, I know the top-right window controls look ugly there, what I really mean is for them to be plain like the ones in the Zune program, but you get the point.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 29 March 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Except that just doesn't fit the way I like to use my computer. Why should I have to change my ways when the old way worked better?

Hmm... in my case, I have the monitor turn off after 5 minutes (on the laptop it also dims after 2), and sleep after 30 (on the laptop I think it sleeps after 15 when on battery). I still don't see why I shouldn't be able to easily make the machine sleep or turn off. Just today, I brought my laptop to school and used it a bit during lunch. When I was done, I put it in sleep and shoved it in my backpack. In win8, if I'm supposed to wait for the machine to sleep on it's own, how will this work? Is it supposed to just keep running for a little while in there, wasting battery and getting really hot? Btw oddly enough, my laptop only sleeps for about 4 or 5 days before running out of battery. The battery was 56Wh, now about 48Wh, and uses 8W while idle and up to 17W when under full load according to batterybar. (I undervolted it a little.)

Except that you don't know that they work better, because you haven't given this a real chance. The old ways worked. This works better. Ubuntu had a similar change, where they kept the start menu, but made a sloppy mess similar to what Metro has done. The difference? Ubuntu is a half-assed half-breed. It doesn't work better.

All it takes with Windows 8 (and 7 for me!) is CLOSE THE LID. It is asleep before I can even pick it up. And awake before I completely open it up. How much easier does it need to be? I am not sure what you have done to your machine that you have to manually put it to sleep, but you need to fix that setting, PRONTO.

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Still, the internet can go down. Maybe you need to go on a trip and work on stuff, or as I said you use public transportation and may need to use it there, and you aren't online. Caching just isn't as good as having the regular file on the laptop, perhaps along with online synchronization, like dropbox. And remember, YOU said you didn't trust the cloud, yet here you're praising it. Hypocrite...

I have 2 different mobile internet connections for my laptop. 4g LTE modem, and my phone. One of the two will work. No I am not a hypocrite. If you would pay attention, you would understand that I approve of the IDEA of what they are after. The execution is freaking beautiful. Do I use skydrive? Yep. There is one document there. A test document used to check formatting of different editors.

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As I said, NOT everyone has a tablet, and NOT everyone has a laptop.(and when I'm on my laptop, I often plug in a regular mouse, though when I take it places I usually don't bother with that) And sure, while alt+tab might seem as intuitive, it's been used since Windows 95 and a LOT of people know about it. Linux distros also typically have it. OS X has something pretty similar (command+tab I think). And also, doing a full shutdown and turning off my PC's power strip also means that if I get a power surge, there's a much lower chance that the PC was (effectively) plugged in when it happened. And no, icons do not look alike at all in my opinion.

Yes, you said this repeatedly. And you refuse to acknowledge that it is aimed at more than that. Find a new track on the record already.

First, it doesn't matter how long it has been around. That doesn't make it more intuitive, that makes it more INGRAINED. There is a difference. Second, no, your PC is not effectively unplugged. Lightning would still hit right through a surge protectors cheap little switch. Only a small surge would be stopped. Something my surge suppressors already do.

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I'll admit, even in a virtual machine, performance is pretty good compared to win7. Yes, I know most people don't use VMs (or even know what one is), but for the few that do, it is a bit of a pain. Running OSes like ubuntu, XP, or w7 in VMs, I don't have that issue at all. (For instance, I use VMs when referencing stuff in XP for tech support purposes.)

I think it might be cool if they had metro tiles, like sidebar gadgets, on the desktop, and you got actual windows, perhaps with some metro theming, when you clicked on them. (for instance, the Zune app has some of that) That would be the best of both worlds. And, perhaps they could have a button there that you click to get a metro screen with all your installed programs (that just takes over the desktop itself, not the taskbar), to make it easy to launch stuff, perhaps with status updates and such on the tiles like metro has. As I said, this isn't necessarily change for the better. There are good ways they can implement metro ideas, they just chose not to use them. Perhaps I'll make some mockups of what I mean and post them.

1. The start menu works beautifully, why get rid of it? That's SURE to get rid of productivity with a lot of people. Metro is just stupid in a lot of cases. Gee, if it isn't broken, why not break it?
2. Why should people be forced to use metro when it is unintuitive and stupid?
3. No... I think that they should keep the current kernel and stuff, but just offer a more intuitive task switcher in metro.
4. ditto
5. How are most people supposed to figure that out?
7. Yep... in a paid product, ads are unacceptable. I feel it should be one OR the other, NOT both. Just like tivo - you pay plenty for the actual device, AND you pay a subscription fee, AND there is an ad on the homescreen. wtf? I don't think the Zune app has that either.
8. Why? Hiding the controls is silly. In other OSes (Win7, linux, etc), do you constantly use your browser in fullscreen mode? I know I don't, and there's a reason for it.
9. It's still harder than it has to be. The point here is not to make things as hard as you possibly can while still having (most) people understand it.

(I'm assuming you didn't respond to the 4th one there... maybe I should've numbered those so responses wouldn't be so confusing.)



"I would have expected this if you were Coasties age (no offense Coastie ) But from a young punk, this makes me think you are just afraid of learning something new."
Young punk?

1. Because it is a MESS. Install more than 20 programs and you have a nightmare waiting to happen. Metro doesn't completely clean this up, but it is FAR superior. Namely because you can easily and quickly organize it to some degree. The start menu is nothing more than the 90's version of Program Manager. It needed to die.
2. Because it is NEITHER. You WANT it to be both, so you can have an excuse to spread FUD. But it is neither one.
3. The task switcher is perfectly fine, use it on a real machine for once, then comment.
5. The same way I did. A quick 10 minute intro. Sure is better than the 1,000 page book needed to understand why Windows (95-7) acted the way they did.
8. Two reasons. 1. It is clean. 2. Because the clutter isn't needed. On my laptop for example, all the gesture controls work perfectly.
9. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?! There is literally NOTHING HERE TO LEARN OR FIGHT. It JUST WORKS. You start your Metro app, then use a corner to either go back to the home screen, or select a new app. WHAT is there to understand?! You are making no sense here, multitasking is STUPIDLY simple. It actually takes MORE EFFORT to DEFEAT the multitasking capabilities than it does to USE them. I actually had to watch the 10 minute video to understand that MS wanted me to 'throw away' apps I didn't want running!

Yes young....

Punk.

[LiveBrianD]

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All it takes with Windows 8 (and 7 for me!) is CLOSE THE LID. It is asleep before I can even pick it up. And awake before I completely open it up. How much easier does it need to be? I am not sure what you have done to your machine that you have to manually put it to sleep, but you need to fix that setting, PRONTO.

I changed that on my laptop because occasionally I find I want to have it running with the lid closed (ex. downloading something). And what about a desktop?

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I have 2 different mobile internet connections for my laptop. 4g LTE modem, and my phone. One of the two will work. No I am not a hypocrite. If you would pay attention, you would understand that I approve of the IDEA of what they are after. The execution is freaking beautiful. Do I use skydrive? Yep. There is one document there. A test document used to check formatting of different editors.

And if you're, say, on a train or in a remote area and there's no reception, you still don't have signal. And do you seriously use skydrive for stuff, not just for testing? Remember, you DID say that you don't trust the cloud. I have 3.6GB of stuff in dropbox, 1785 files, and use it all the time.

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Yes, you said this repeatedly. And you refuse to acknowledge that it is aimed at more than that. Find a new track on the record already.
First, it doesn't matter how long it has been around. That doesn't make it more intuitive, that makes it more INGRAINED. There is a difference. Second, no, your PC is not effectively unplugged. Lightning would still hit right through a surge protectors cheap little switch. Only a small surge would be stopped. Something my surge suppressors already do.

Yes, but they are still primarily aiming it toward tablets. Notice how they gave out TABLETS with win8 on them at the dev conferences? It's a tablet OS with desktops and laptops as second priority. It works there, but not necessarily well in my opinion. And second, it's still not a bad idea to shut it off when not in used. I don't see why you are opposed to this. Also, what do you think of the mockup I posted above?

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1. Because it is a MESS. Install more than 20 programs and you have a nightmare waiting to happen. Metro doesn't completely clean this up, but it is FAR superior. Namely because you can easily and quickly organize it to some degree. The start menu is nothing more than the 90's version of Program Manager. It needed to die.
2. Because it is NEITHER. You WANT it to be both, so you can have an excuse to spread FUD. But it is neither one.
3. The task switcher is perfectly fine, use it on a real machine for once, then comment.
5. The same way I did. A quick 10 minute intro. Sure is better than the 1,000 page book needed to understand why Windows (95-7) acted the way they did.
8. Two reasons. 1. It is clean. 2. Because the clutter isn't needed. On my laptop for example, all the gesture controls work perfectly.
9. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?! There is literally NOTHING HERE TO LEARN OR FIGHT. It JUST WORKS. You start your Metro app, then use a corner to either go back to the home screen, or select a new app. WHAT is there to understand?! You are making no sense here, multitasking is STUPIDLY simple. It actually takes MORE EFFORT to DEFEAT the multitasking capabilities than it does to USE them. I actually had to watch the 10 minute video to understand that MS wanted me to 'throw away' apps I didn't want running!

1. True, you have a bit of a point there. I still don't like being pulled out of the entire program and perhaps UI that I'm in just for that though. Personally, I just pin all the programs I use frequently to the taskbar (about a dozen of them), and launch things by typing the name into the start menu. That works well enough. Something like Stardock Fences built into the desktop and start menu would be cool though.
3. I've messed with win8 in a fullscreened VM, which is nearly identical to an actual machine in terms of hot corners and such, and still don't entirely like it. I particularly don't like the way IE is designed there though - the controls are way too big, and they're all hidden by default. Why?
8. Maybe they do on yours, but on a lot of machines, including mine, they don't. And what if you prefer a regular mouse, or have a desktop and thus are forced to use one? No gestures there.
9. Again, it's ok, but I still don't see why they couldn't just use a regular taskbar with metro instead. They way they did it in Windows 7 was quite nice.

[LiveBrianD]

OK, what about this for a not so messy start menu?
http://img576.images...menuexample.png

With the ability to create new categories and move icons around, add/remove them, etc?

This post has been edited by LiveBrianD: 29 March 2012 - 08:12 PM

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 29 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I changed that on my laptop because occasionally I find I want to have it running with the lid closed (ex. downloading something). And what about a desktop?

Don't yell about a dying battery when you killed the battery yourself.
As for desktop, what about it? Set it to 10 minutes and walk away. Not that difficult.

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And if you're, say, on a train or in a remote area and there's no reception, you still don't have signal. And do you seriously use skydrive for stuff, not just for testing? Remember, you DID say that you don't trust the cloud. I have 3.6GB of stuff in dropbox, 1785 files, and use it all the time.

I will make sure you are the first to know when I find myself in a no service area. As it stands, there has been ONE time I dropped my 3g service. It was in between two mountains as I recall, on m trip from Ohio to Texas. And I recovered service within moments. The last time I was on a train was in Europe, and yes I had cell coverage. WHY? Because that is where their traffic is. You are also ignoring comments as you see fit. No I don't trust cloud services. BUT I fully understand, and appreciate what MS is going for. There is a difference.

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Yes, but they are still primarily aiming it toward tablets. Notice how they gave out TABLETS with win8 on them at the dev conferences? It's a tablet OS with desktops and laptops as second priority. It works there, but not necessarily well in my opinion. And second, it's still not a bad idea to shut it off when not in used. I don't see why you are opposed to this. Also, what do you think of the mockup I posted above?

No, there is no primary platform goal. The goal is to make a CONSISTENT interface that can be used on ALL MS devices. Everything from your XBOX to PHONE to PC will now have an interface that is consistent and easily recognized. That is a tall order, and surprisingly well executed.

Also, I NEVER turn off my gear. I have motherboards, and CPUs that are 20 years old, and they only downtime they saw, was during MOVES or upgrades. Lately, more of them have been turned off, but only because my media center has replaced them. And the media center has seen minimal downtime as well. I do not fret over storms, or anything else for that matter. For 15 years, BELKIN has protected my equipment, and done an admirable job of it.

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1. True, you have a bit of a point there. I still don't like being pulled out of the entire program and perhaps UI that I'm in just for that though. Personally, I just pin all the programs I use frequently to the taskbar (about a dozen of them), and launch things by typing the name into the start menu. That works well enough. Something like Stardock Fences built into the desktop and start menu would be cool though.
3. I've messed with win8 in a fullscreened VM, which is nearly identical to an actual machine in terms of hot corners and such, and still don't entirely like it. I particularly don't like the way IE is designed there though - the controls are way too big, and they're all hidden by default. Why?
8. Maybe they do on yours, but on a lot of machines, including mine, they don't. And what if you prefer a regular mouse, or have a desktop and thus are forced to use one? No gestures there.
9. Again, it's ok, but I still don't see why they couldn't just use a regular taskbar with metro instead. They way they did it in Windows 7 was quite nice.

1. If you really don't like Metro, do what I did (before I got to understanding Metro): Use Steam! - it aint perfect, but it worked as a launcher.
3. Again, so it can fit a large number of devices. IE was designed to let you browse the web rather than stare at an interface. Try it with gesture support on your laptop once. It won't take long before you figure out that you don't need the UI elements for 99% of your browsing.
8. Did you try it outside of a VM? Or did you have Virtual Box trying to emulate everything poorly?
9. Because that defeats the purpose.

[coastie65]

Hey, how about you guys starting a Windows 8 thread or something ( although I think there is one ). You have pretty much hijacked this thread.

This post has been edited by coastie65: 30 March 2012 - 05:08 AM

[mjd420nova]

waldojim, on 29 March 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

mjd420nova, on 29 March 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

After all is said and done, many more hours need to be spent in boosting the speeds of every part of a PC. Many more on board (locked -down) peripheral drivers and more machine cycles it takes for a device to respond if it is working properly. The BIOS size and speed are the bottom of the pile upon which you build and expand as dictated by drivers and interupt routines. I am very much impressed with the speed and readiness of the WIN7 platform. Under ten second loading and is there for any function. getting used to the "work tray" I call it, can be likened to some of the multiple tasks on the task bar. The i5 Intel with 4GB memory and a 500 GB drive Plain vanila. Bells and whistles galore. Over 1.3 GB video memory sold me. This thing is quick. I have actually reached the limits of my DSL line. They won't throttle me, they'll come looking with a garot.

Time for FIOS?

I've had Comcast here before but no fiber optic yet. The cost has reached beyond my budget and DSL will have to do for now. If I could get just the internet but they make you take at leaast basic TV whether you want it or not. I guess they can't block it from viewing. The spouse needs tow sports packages and it is nice to get all the local pro sports, home or away, every game except football that has blackout rules. 18 Mbps compared to 3 Mbps is quite apparent but is adequate if you're by yourself. Add in two more router nodes and a game console, streaming can be very jerky but no one else seems to mind.

[coastie65]

mjd420nova, on 30 March 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

waldojim, on 29 March 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

mjd420nova, on 29 March 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

After all is said and done, many more hours need to be spent in boosting the speeds of every part of a PC. Many more on board (locked -down) peripheral drivers and more machine cycles it takes for a device to respond if it is working properly. The BIOS size and speed are the bottom of the pile upon which you build and expand as dictated by drivers and interupt routines. I am very much impressed with the speed and readiness of the WIN7 platform. Under ten second loading and is there for any function. getting used to the "work tray" I call it, can be likened to some of the multiple tasks on the task bar. The i5 Intel with 4GB memory and a 500 GB drive Plain vanila. Bells and whistles galore. Over 1.3 GB video memory sold me. This thing is quick. I have actually reached the limits of my DSL line. They won't throttle me, they'll come looking with a garot.

Time for FIOS?

I've had Comcast here before but no fiber optic yet. The cost has reached beyond my budget and DSL will have to do for now. If I could get just the internet but they make you take at leaast basic TV whether you want it or not. I guess they can't block it from viewing. The spouse needs tow sports packages and it is nice to get all the local pro sports, home or away, every game except football that has blackout rules. 18 Mbps compared to 3 Mbps is quite apparent but is adequate if you're by yourself. Add in two more router nodes and a game console, streaming can be very jerky but no one else seems to mind.

That doesn't happen with Fiber ( I have FiOS ). You can have all sorts of things running off the router and no problems with streaming. It is Fiber from the source to the router and on to this desktop by ethernet cable. I can have the PS3 going by wireless and the laptops wirelesly. The TV is fed by a COAX cable off of the router. The phone is fed to copper at the box on the back of the house.

[waldojim]

coastie65, on 30 March 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Hey, how about you guys starting a Windows 8 thread or something ( although I think there is one ). You have pretty much hijacked this thread.

That was never the intention... I was initially looking to see what kind of difference there was in the numbers between Win 7 and 8...