[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 17 February 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

waldojim, on 17 February 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

For my needs, RAID works just fine. I don't go around accidentally deleting things. Not to mention that the entire contents are that of movies I have bought, paid for, and can easily re-rip. Well - that and a few family photos, which end up burned and mailed off to family that has very limited download bandwidth.

EDIT: You do preach. Thus the reason I fight you at every turn. Because you feel the NEED to be right with everything - even when you are blatantly WRONG.

If the array did fail or something (that happened to my mom once, raid 1), and you lost all the data on it, it would take quite a while to re-rip all those movies. Honestly, isn't it just easier to backup everything, so it's just a simply matter of copying all the files back?

You do realize I have dealt with a partial failure already right? All I had to do was tell Windows to rebuild the array. The chances of loosing TWO of my THREE drives at any one time is quite slim. The only other method of failure, is EVILDAVES imaginary what-if's. Like 'what if you delete all your data?" My response: Then you deserve to loose it. Don't delete it. This is not rocket science.

[LiveBrianD]

waldojim, on 17 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You do realize I have dealt with a partial failure already right? All I had to do was tell Windows to rebuild the array. The chances of loosing TWO of my THREE drives at any one time is quite slim. The only other method of failure, is EVILDAVES imaginary what-if's. Like 'what if you delete all your data?" My response: Then you deserve to loose it. Don't delete it. This is not rocket science.

And you do realize that accidents happen, right? I've accidentally deleted a folder that I store junk in not realizing that a batch file I use to ping the network printer (to see if it's on or not, because half the time it says 'ready' when it's off) was in there (I was searching the name of the file in the start menu to access it), and had to restore it from my backup drive.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

waldojim, on 17 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You do realize I have dealt with a partial failure already right? All I had to do was tell Windows to rebuild the array. The chances of loosing TWO of my THREE drives at any one time is quite slim. The only other method of failure, is EVILDAVES imaginary what-if's. Like 'what if you delete all your data?" My response: Then you deserve to loose it. Don't delete it. This is not rocket science.

And you do realize that accidents happen, right? I've accidentally deleted a folder that I store junk in not realizing that a batch file I use to ping the network printer (to see if it's on or not, because half the time it says 'ready' when it's off) was in there (I was searching the name of the file in the start menu to access it), and had to restore it from my backup drive.

Or use one of the many undelete programs available.

[Evildave]

So I take it you have NOT learned your lesson, then, WaldoJim?

Well, I hope for your sake that nothing EVER goes wrong.

Undelete, for instance, only restores files when they haven't been overwritten. Some of the most dangerous moments for little boo-boos are when you're shifting things around, or 'reorganizing' or 'cleaning up', or doing some fresh, big installs. If something is deleted while you're moving around a bunch of files... undelete won't. Maybe windoze has 'fixed' the issue where you miss the file you wanted to delete, and delete the one above or below on the list, but it's 'too big for the recycle bin' and just gets unlinked? If you were downloading, installing or otherwise busy doing something at the same time and didn't spot the mistake instantly, that file (or folder full of files) can be gone.

Sure, anyone, even I feel like a damned fool when I make such an error, myself. But it happens to EVERYONE.

You'll feel so much worse if you don't have a backup. Especially when you recall how many people have NAGGED you about that little oversight.

4TB fits onto a single hard disk. About $300, according to a few web searches. Though a plastic box with a pair of 2TB drives slaved together can be had for less.

There's really absolutely no excuse for this negligence. You can fit your whole, unimpressive '4 tb RAID' onto one backup disk. Your backup can be 'fire and forget'.

And actually, the chances of losing two drives at a time aren't all that slim. Burglary, fire, flood, broken pipes, electrical faults, lightning direct hit, pulling the plug you thought was for the second monitor, rodents or pets, curious children of guests... the world is chock full of ways to make your ones and zeroes go away.

[Nuke61]

RAID protects against a single method of failure - a hard disk failure. But you also have the possibility of a RAID controller failure.

Backups protect against disk failure, software bugs, file system corruption, viruses, and the accidental deletion. For these reasons, I have two external Firewire drives where one is on a daily backup and the other is on a weekly backup. I also have an external RAID that gets a periodic (whenever I remember) backup set. The external drives also have the benefit of being directly bootable. IOW, if my desktop drive ever failed, I can hold down some keyboard keys and choose to boot from the external drive == zero downtime. For my laptop I have two external USB drives.

I don't understand the resistance to actual backups, but maybe that's just me.

[waldojim]

Nuke61, on 18 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

RAID protects against a single method of failure - a hard disk failure. But you also have the possibility of a RAID controller failure.

Been through this with others, the beauty of using AMD chipset raid, is that even when the raid controller fails, there is a very easy recovery option. Stick the hard drives into another AMD machine. Or just replace the motherboard. Guess what? I have already tested this across several AMD boards - from different manufacturers. I wanted to prove to myself it would work. It did. No errors in the data, no trouble moving the array.

Also, if my controller fails, the entire motherboard is failing. At which point, the controller is the LEAST of my worries.

Quote

Backups protect against disk failure, software bugs, file system corruption, viruses, and the accidental deletion. For these reasons, I have two external Firewire drives where one is on a daily backup and the other is on a weekly backup. I also have an external RAID that gets a periodic (whenever I remember) backup set. The external drives also have the benefit of being directly bootable. IOW, if my desktop drive ever failed, I can hold down some keyboard keys and choose to boot from the external drive == zero downtime. For my laptop I have two external USB drives.

I don't understand the resistance to actual backups, but maybe that's just me.

The only issue I would worry about here, is the filesystem corruption. Yet, I haven't seen evidence of such in a VERY long time. The last corrupted filesystem I can remember is pre-NTFS anyhow.

I resist everyone else's idea for backups, because I truly don't see a need to waste my money on them. All the data on my raid system is NON-ESSENTIAL, and EASILY replaced. All in all, those drives do provide a limited backup of crucial data from other machines, but that data is never removed from the other machines either.

Sorry guys, but this is like telling an artist they need to make 3 backups of every doodle, even though he has the doodles in a fireproof safe. There is reasonable, then there is excessive. Depending on a persons needs.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 18 February 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

So I take it you have NOT learned your lesson, then, WaldoJim?

Well, I hope for your sake that nothing EVER goes wrong.

Undelete, for instance, only restores files when they haven't been overwritten. Some of the most dangerous moments for little boo-boos are when you're shifting things around, or 'reorganizing' or 'cleaning up', or doing some fresh, big installs. If something is deleted while you're moving around a bunch of files... undelete won't. Maybe windoze has 'fixed' the issue where you miss the file you wanted to delete, and delete the one above or below on the list, but it's 'too big for the recycle bin' and just gets unlinked? If you were downloading, installing or otherwise busy doing something at the same time and didn't spot the mistake instantly, that file (or folder full of files) can be gone.

Sure, anyone, even I feel like a damned fool when I make such an error, myself. But it happens to EVERYONE.

You'll feel so much worse if you don't have a backup. Especially when you recall how many people have NAGGED you about that little oversight.

Not hardly.

Quote

4TB fits onto a single hard disk. About $300, according to a few web searches. Though a plastic box with a pair of 2TB drives slaved together can be had for less.

Then it isn't a single disk anymore is it? You do realize that a striped array has a CONSIDERABLY high chance for failure than my raid array has, don't you? Something to do with NEEDING both of those drive to work 100% at all times. Yes, I can see the errors of my ways - I haven't trusted my data - on a protected raid array - to be backed up to the worst raid system available for such tasks.

And you are going to try to preach to me. Wow. You have gall if nothing else.

Quote

There's really absolutely no excuse for this negligence. You can fit your whole, unimpressive '4 tb RAID' onto one backup disk. Your backup can be 'fire and forget'.

And actually, the chances of losing two drives at a time aren't all that slim. Burglary, fire, flood, broken pipes, electrical faults, lightning direct hit, pulling the plug you thought was for the second monitor, rodents or pets, curious children of guests... the world is chock full of ways to make your ones and zeroes go away.

So far none of the events you listed would protect the backup, though I must say, a burgler is more likely to steal the backup drive than the 60Lb media center. And for what it is worth, the media center is on a very well protected circuit, and never moves. Pulling plugs? Not gonna happen. Pets? Don't have any. Water? All on the other side of the house. Power faults? Again, protected.

So we are back to your imaginary what-ifs. Back to your "OMG THE WORLD IS GOING TO END" scenarios. And I don't care about your imaginary WHAT-IF scenarios.

[Evildave]

As I said: You can get 4TB on a SINGLE 3.5" HARD DISK DRIVE. About $300. So I don't see why you're whining about the cheap paired boxes. Most likely configured 'JBOD', but since the 'backup' is rarely used and left on and connected, it's a bit less likely to go 'poof'. You know, sitting there in the closet.

There's always one more thing you didn't foresee. Back it up, or gamble every day. For instance, a whole class of RAID controller failures will write 'junk' to multiple drives. That day you get the replacement board installed, and it doesn't recognize any of the drives would be a really bad one.

And to claim it wouldn't be that extra knife in the eye to KNOW you didn't back it up is plain silly. You'll feel like the stupidest of the stupid. King Idiot of the Kingdom of Foolhardy!

You seem like the sort who wouldn't confess to it, though. I suspect if the disaster happens, you'd quietly re-rip and re-accumulate all of the content you could, write off what was irreplaceable as lost, and still claim on the forum that RAID is 'good enough' not to need a backup.

...

It's not just you, Nuke61.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 18 February 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

As I said: You can get 4TB on a SINGLE 3.5" HARD DISK DRIVE. About $300. So I don't see why you're whining about the cheap paired boxes. Most likely configured 'JBOD', but since the 'backup' is rarely used and left on and connected, it's a bit less likely to go 'poof'. You know, sitting there in the closet.

You mentioned - more than one - the RAID backup hard drive. It doesn't matter HOW the raid is accomplished - a 4TB array depending on 2 drives less than 4 TB each, results in a situation of any ONE drive loosing ALL of your data.

Quote

There's always one more thing you didn't foresee. Back it up, or gamble every day. For instance, a whole class of RAID controller failures will write 'junk' to multiple drives. That day you get the replacement board installed, and it doesn't recognize any of the drives would be a really bad one.

Yes yes, world ending, blah blah blah.

Raid controller must have been junk on all 4 boards I tested against. Seeing the data work correctly on all 4 boards... must be junk.
Yep...

Quote

And to claim it wouldn't be that extra knife in the eye to KNOW you didn't back it up is plain silly. You'll feel like the stupidest of the stupid. King Idiot of the Kingdom of Foolhardy!

Uh huh. Loosing the data that I can recover in a days notice... Yep, going to be just torn over it.

Quote

You seem like the sort who wouldn't confess to it, though. I suspect if the disaster happens, you'd quietly re-rip and re-accumulate all of the content you could, write off what was irreplaceable as lost, and still claim on the forum that RAID is 'good enough' not to need a backup.

...

It's not just you, Nuke61.

No, the only 'irreplaceable' material on those drives happen to have been burned at least once for family. Meaning that in a way - there are backups. Though nothing I keep track of. The day I get a virus, house burns down, whatever, I will be the first to admit that your end of the world scenarios came true.

[Nuke61]

waldojim, on 18 February 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

No, the only 'irreplaceable' material on those drives happen to have been burned at least once for family. Meaning that in a way - there are backups. Though nothing I keep track of. The day I get a virus, house burns down, whatever, I will be the first to admit that your end of the world scenarios came true.

Whether you deem it of worth to backup the information you have on your computer isn't something I'll argue; I just wanted to point out to other readers that a RAID, even a mirrored RAID, is not equivalent to a real backup. In my case, I had my ReadyNAS Duo, setup as RAID 1 mirrored drives, lose all the data on it. I have no idea how or why it happened. When I moved to my new house I hooked it up to my computer and the Netgear Radar utility reported that the drives were not formatted, and asked if I wanted them formatted. Prior to that event, I thought that a mirrored RAID was basically identical to a backup -- it's not.

[waldojim]

Nuke61, on 18 February 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

waldojim, on 18 February 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

No, the only 'irreplaceable' material on those drives happen to have been burned at least once for family. Meaning that in a way - there are backups. Though nothing I keep track of. The day I get a virus, house burns down, whatever, I will be the first to admit that your end of the world scenarios came true.

Whether you deem it of worth to backup the information you have on your computer isn't something I'll argue; I just wanted to point out to other readers that a RAID, even a mirrored RAID, is not equivalent to a real backup. In my case, I had my ReadyNAS Duo, setup as RAID 1 mirrored drives, lose all the data on it. I have no idea how or why it happened. When I moved to my new house I hooked it up to my computer and the Netgear Radar utility reported that the drives were not formatted, and asked if I wanted them formatted. Prior to that event, I thought that a mirrored RAID was basically identical to a backup -- it's not.

I am not saying I have never had odd raid alarms, and issues. But in my case, I have easily recovered from all of them. At least all them when using chipset level raid controllers. The other stuff, true hardware raid, gets very finicky very quickly. I have had 3 different boards with built in hardware raid (in the truest sense) in the past. Those controllers are used as little more than generic sata ports (or SCSI as in the case of my Tyan board). These softraids are terrible for CPU consumption, but I can't call them anything less than darned reliable. Even when I had a partial failure, the machines kept right on running. Yes, there is an increased chance of total failure that way, but it also keeps you running while you wait on replacement drives. I didn't expect a soft-raid to remain quite so functional while running a crippled array.

[LiveBrianD]

waldojim, on 17 February 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

LiveBrianD, on 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

waldojim, on 17 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You do realize I have dealt with a partial failure already right? All I had to do was tell Windows to rebuild the array. The chances of loosing TWO of my THREE drives at any one time is quite slim. The only other method of failure, is EVILDAVES imaginary what-if's. Like 'what if you delete all your data?" My response: Then you deserve to loose it. Don't delete it. This is not rocket science.

And you do realize that accidents happen, right? I've accidentally deleted a folder that I store junk in not realizing that a batch file I use to ping the network printer (to see if it's on or not, because half the time it says 'ready' when it's off) was in there (I was searching the name of the file in the start menu to access it), and had to restore it from my backup drive.

Or use one of the many undelete programs available.

By the time I realized it, the file had already been overwritten.

[LiveBrianD]

waldojim, on 18 February 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Nuke61, on 18 February 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

RAID protects against a single method of failure - a hard disk failure. But you also have the possibility of a RAID controller failure.

Been through this with others, the beauty of using AMD chipset raid, is that even when the raid controller fails, there is a very easy recovery option. Stick the hard drives into another AMD machine. Or just replace the motherboard. Guess what? I have already tested this across several AMD boards - from different manufacturers. I wanted to prove to myself it would work. It did. No errors in the data, no trouble moving the array.

Also, if my controller fails, the entire motherboard is failing. At which point, the controller is the LEAST of my worries.

Quote

Backups protect against disk failure, software bugs, file system corruption, viruses, and the accidental deletion. For these reasons, I have two external Firewire drives where one is on a daily backup and the other is on a weekly backup. I also have an external RAID that gets a periodic (whenever I remember) backup set. The external drives also have the benefit of being directly bootable. IOW, if my desktop drive ever failed, I can hold down some keyboard keys and choose to boot from the external drive == zero downtime. For my laptop I have two external USB drives.

I don't understand the resistance to actual backups, but maybe that's just me.

The only issue I would worry about here, is the filesystem corruption. Yet, I haven't seen evidence of such in a VERY long time. The last corrupted filesystem I can remember is pre-NTFS anyhow.

I resist everyone else's idea for backups, because I truly don't see a need to waste my money on them. All the data on my raid system is NON-ESSENTIAL, and EASILY replaced. All in all, those drives do provide a limited backup of crucial data from other machines, but that data is never removed from the other machines either.

Sorry guys, but this is like telling an artist they need to make 3 backups of every doodle, even though he has the doodles in a fireproof safe. There is reasonable, then there is excessive. Depending on a persons needs.

And your current machine uses an Intel CPU... if that motherboard fails, how will you recover it? Ger another motherboard of the EXACT same model? Wouldn't it be easier to just get an external backup drive? And if that raid were to fail, it would still be a bit of hassle to fix things...

[Evildave]

WORLD ending?

Not backing up your data is the equivalent to leaving your computer out in the rain.

"... I have easily recovered from all of them. " isn't quite right. You should have said, "I have easily recovered from all of them, SO FAR."

Your complacency is a marvel. Even the dodos, when being picked up and carried off for a dinner engagement, showed more enlightened self interest.

But the crime here is that you would attempt to spread a lie, that 'RAID' is equivalent to BACKUP. That's pretty irresponsible.


Some more equivalent cases:

"Yeah, the roof leaks, but I live in a desert! It hardly ever rains."

"I could look both ways before crossing, but I trust the cars to stop."

"I don't need to file my taxes! They don't care about ME!"

[SirTekaLotw6xs]

What a winded article.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 18 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

And your current machine uses an Intel CPU... if that motherboard fails, how will you recover it? Ger another motherboard of the EXACT same model? Wouldn't it be easier to just get an external backup drive? And if that raid were to fail, it would still be a bit of hassle to fix things...

I don't run RAID on the gaming machine. Only the media center/file server. Not that it matters much, the gaming rig uses a similarly flexible chipset raid controller. Of which, I already have a spare motherboard handy (the MSI), and yes they two are compatible (tested already). I see no more hassle in this, than any other motherboard failure.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 18 February 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

WORLD ending?

Not backing up your data is the equivalent to leaving your computer out in the rain.

No, no it isn't. Placing your computer in the rain is CAUSING direct harm. This is not. Please, find yourself a better metaphor.

Quote

"... I have easily recovered from all of them. " isn't quite right. You should have said, "I have easily recovered from all of them, SO FAR."

No, it was phrased perfectly in the original context. The context in which that sentence immediately followed the past situations, of which I had a perfect recovery. Your troubles with the English language are NOT my troubles.

Quote

Your complacency is a marvel. Even the dodos, when being picked up and carried off for a dinner engagement, showed more enlightened self interest.

But the crime here is that you would attempt to spread a lie, that 'RAID' is equivalent to BACKUP. That's pretty irresponsible.


Some more equivalent cases:

"Yeah, the roof leaks, but I live in a desert! It hardly ever rains."

"I could look both ways before crossing, but I trust the cars to stop."

"I don't need to file my taxes! They don't care about ME!"

I never said raid was an equivalent. I DID say, that in certain cases, RAID is as good as a backup. You cannot affect changes to my media center remotely, nor can I. Deleted files, therefore, are not a problem. That machine is also quite well protected from Viruses (not needed considering the situation), and attack. As such, the only failures I have to concern myself over, are drive failure, and motherboard failure. Either of which I can recover from. Should the unthinkable happen, and my house burns down, my backups would burn with the machine. If the machine were hit by lightning, I would re-image my movies when I finally built a replacement machine.

When you drop your extreme "equivalent cases" that have no bearing on the matter then we may talk more. Until then, you continue to be an arrogant, extremist with no basis in reality. You can sit there all you want, I will continue to live in the real world.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 18 February 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

By the time I realized it, the file had already been overwritten.

Then I am sorry for you. Bright side, is that you suggested it was a small batch file. Probably something easy to replace.

[LiveBrianD]

waldojim, on 18 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

LiveBrianD, on 18 February 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

By the time I realized it, the file had already been overwritten.

Then I am sorry for you. Bright side, is that you suggested it was a small batch file. Probably something easy to replace.

Yes, that was a pretty minor thing. However, what if I had put something more critical in the folder that I deleted, without knowing that was there? Then I could be screwed. Unless I have a backup drive. Also, should the entire machine get hit by a huge power surge or something (that your surge protector didn't fully stop), and the hard drives died, why would you want more hassle, reripping everything, when you could just use a cheap external 2TB drive to back it all up?

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 18 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Yes, that was a pretty minor thing. However, what if I had put something more critical in the folder that I deleted, without knowing that was there? Then I could be screwed. Unless I have a backup drive. Also, should the entire machine get hit by a huge power surge or something (that your surge protector didn't fully stop), and the hard drives died, why would you want more hassle, reripping everything, when you could just use a cheap external 2TB drive to back it all up?

Then don't delete things you need.

I don't dwell on the highly improbable. A cheap external 2TB drive would NOT back everything up. And in fact, I am hitting the very limits of my 4TB that I have. This year, I will be moving to 8TB or more.