[davep1]

I first learned Automated Data Processing (ADP) on our school's 402 before graduating to Electronic Data Processing (EDP) on a remote, time shared, GE mainframe via a dial-up connection. The advantage the 402 has is that it's primarily mechanical and it can be repaired rather than replaced. Sure, their system could be replaced by a cheap netbook, but why bother when what they have works.

They might use more electricity but they don't appear to need faster or more complicated software on a computer and printer that will be lucky to last a decade, much less half a century.

[ekoblentz]

Anybody who wants to see such computers actually running should attend the Vintage Computer Festival East. It's May 5-6 in New Jersey. http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/

[JeffDeWitt]

shanedr, on 20 February 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

Wow, that is ridiculous. Those people could upgrade to a modern computer and save both electricity and manpower that would more than pay for the cost of the upgrade.

Some people just don't understand when something is broken.

Sparkers old machine is doing what they need it to do, therefore it is not broken. It does the job, they know the machine, and to replace it with a modern machine would no doubt be pretty complicated.

[stuclark]

Been around computers in hardware, software and systems since 1953; daughter is CPA and Computer Systems Developer; stepson is Calibration Instrument Systems Designer; grandson is Computer Systems Designer. All of us started on one system and moved onward as new ones became available. Too bad some others haven't see the need to remain aware and keep up with the world on a consistent and continuous basis.

[deepsand]

shanedr, on 20 February 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

Wow, that is ridiculous. Those people could upgrade to a modern computer and save both electricity and manpower that would more than pay for the cost of the upgrade.

Some people just don't understand when something is broken.

But, in these cases, they're not broken.

And, you've greatly underestimated the conversion costs.

For example, in the case of the IBM 402, how much do you think it would cost to acquire application software that would emulate their current procedures, and train the users.

What about the archived data? Do they pay to have all of that converted? Or, do they still maintain the 402, so as to have access to it, in which case they've no need of a newer system. Or, do they simply lose all that?

What are will be the future costs to maintain a new system compared to those of maintaining the current one?

Newer is not necessarily better.

[butlerwm]

There are some areas where more, bigger, and faster serve a purpose. There are others where it doesn't. Much of the supposed "need" comes from the desire of software and hardware makers to create a market to peddle their wares. Our company uses a Core i7 system for video rendering. We also use a Windows NT system to communicate with our more than 1500 remote units in the field. Each system was purchased and is maintained according to the purpose that suited it. The NT system has run 24 hours a day for the past three and a half years with no down time. Three and a half years ago was when it replaced a twin system that had run for more than a decade, under the same conditions, also with no down time. While an NT system doesn't quite compare with those in the article, it remains an example of old technology that has no need to be replaced so long as it does what it should, the way it should.

[brocksamson]

To the nuclear missile computers still running....Joshua and the WOPR called and wants to know if you are up for a game of Tic-Tac-Toe?

[FedorSteeman]

dlauber, on 20 February 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Aside from all the electricity they waste, they don't have a clue how much easier and faster everything they do can be done on a current computer and with current software.

Are you freaking kidding me? Are you telling me that John Kowalski, an ace programmer, doesn't know how to do stuff on a current computer!? This is the guy who, if you even read the entire article (yes, there is more than one page), wrote several PlayStation2 titles, where he used his trusted 8-bitter to check the calculations of the 3D engine that he was working on. Can you write a 3D engine for a 64-bit game console? No? Then STFU! You have no idea what you're talking about!

[wth1954]

If you have a complex program for any subject that is qualified as a design mechanism it isn't easy just to plop it onto another system. You have to re-qualify the results the new system provides and for a considerable period of time any somewhat unexpected result will be suspect and needing further investigation.

[CharlesMousseau]

dlauber, on 20 February 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

I would be simply nuts if I still used my 1981 Altos CP/M computer and NEC Spinwriter printer -- and so are these folk. Just crazy. Aside from all the electricity they waste, they don't have a clue how much easier and faster everything they do can be done on a current computer and with current software. What they're doing is nothing to celebrate.

Not a drop of magnificence in your soul, is there?

[GerryDoire]

Someone buy this old guy an ipad with ya!

[rgreen4]

But an iPad won't do the job. Now if you had a way to connect a real keyboard to an iPad, it might be a little better, but it forte if graphics not data.

There is a video clip of a segment of a Jay Leno show in which he had two 20 somthings with cell phones and two Ham Radio operators with telegraph keys and tone generators. The question is which would get the message through first, the 21st century cell phone technology by texting or the 140 year old 19th century manual telepgraph. Everyone in the audience thought the two guys with cell phones would win. It was not even close, the two Ham radio operators finished before the texting was even half done.

There is no way anyone using an on screen keyboard can beat an experienced operator with a full sized keyboard for speed. One of the reasons Apple never succeeded in the business world is that they refused to offer a keyboard with a numeric keypad. For someone entering numbers, do not discount the effectiveness of that simple 17 key arrangement. If you open a spreadsheet on an iPad and attempt to enter a column of numbers, I will be 5 or 6 rows down in Excel before you finish the first row. It's also one of two reasons I buy 17" laptops - they have a numeric keypad and a second drive bay. (But I still prefer my full size keyboard. But then I would also have to carry my 24" monitor and CPU as well.)

You don't need a high powered i7 system to run MS Office. You can install MS Office 2010 on a PC with Win2K and it will be a little slower opening file, saving files and recalculating, but not too much. All of the modern stuff has been for graphics and video. If you don't need fancy video or graphics, you don't need a new system, it's just that simple.

[RSchwartz]

JamesVanHoute1234, on 19 February 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

You should see how poorly small businesses are operated down here. Zero professionalism, zero standards, zero customer service. Just a bunch of weather worn plywood shacks or ramshackle cement buildings whose dress codes are non-existant.

Since retiring from a major energy company, I've done a little work for some local small businesses. It is really amazing how inefficient and archaic some of them are. I'm not saying that is the case here though.

[AnonymousFriend]

GerryDoire, on 21 February 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Someone buy this old guy an ipad with ya!

Why? The guy needs to get work done, not play games, browse the web and watch videos.

[deepsand]

GerryDoire, on 21 February 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Someone buy this old guy an ipad with ya!

I'm guessing that you've no practical experience in the realm of DP for businesses.

[skyhawke]

My first machine was a Commodore VIC-20 with a whopping 5K of RAM (1982). I think I had 3.5K to work with after BASIC loaded from the ROM.

[matterj]

I have a Windows XP computer that I used for years and really loved. Have recently got a Windows 7 and wish that I could some how work with them together but Windows XP not updatable!!!

[JamesEvens]

This takes me back. I used punched cards as input for a college intro to computing class in 1976, my brother had a Apple IIe in the 80's (probably still in his closet), and in the 90's my employer (the US DoD) upgraded a Unisys System/80 with a DEC ALPHA.

It really shouldn't matter that companies use what some would consider outdated systems. They perform the tasks they were designed to perform. Training costs to the employer are kept low and the cost of upgrading hardware are saved.

Why do any of us upgrade in the first place? More than likely it is because we were told that the newer hardware, software or operating system will save time and money. I reality, money may need to be spent on retraining employees on the new systems. Another issue is code-bloat. Do these faster machines really perform the requested task any faster because of features that only the most adept power user might use 1% of the time are shrinking the available disk space and making the program load slower?

[charl40]

Bet I could still wire a 402 and a 40t tab, a 514 reproducer, an interpreter, collator, card-a-type and a 602-A OR 604.

Those skills you never lose.

Chuck Schober

[rgreen4]

One thing for everyone to remember when reading the article is that in large corporations it all about efficiency, saving time or increasing output. They measure the workhours per unit and will spend money to get that down. With small businesses like the one in the article it is all about SURVIVAL. They want to survive this month so they can pay their employees and pay their bills (those of the shop and their personal ones as well). If they can't, they close the doors. As long as it works, does the job and doesn't cost anything out of pocket to run, it's good.

If they spend money to upgrade their computer system, the money doesn't come out of a corporate capital improvement budget, it comes out of the owners pocket. I would not be surprised if the equipment we are discussing was purchased at least second hand, maybe third hand. The owners when they need office furniture go to the second hand store, not Office Depot or Staples. They go their for their stock forms because they need them.

We had a local A/C service company that associated with a national franchiser in the hope of increasing their business. They had to meet several upgrades, they had to go to electronic tablets to record the service call instead of the paper multi-part forms they had been using, they had to get some new trucks, and the others they kept had to be re-painted. No more pickups with equipment in the back, all service vans. In order to cover this they had to raise their prices and as a result their business went down not up. If this company had been in Atlanta or Macon, it may have worked, but in a small south Georgia town, the competitors gained share on them. They terminated the franchise agreement and went back to their old name, but their costs are still high as they are still paying for all the electronics and re-painting their trucks - again.

The small businessman in the article has a choice of increasing his inventory or his computer equipment, he will choose the inventory every time. The customer cares about being able to get the parts, not how new and up to date his accounting system is. Small businesses operate in a completely different world than large or even the medium businesses do.