[artzy65]

nonseq, on 14 April 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I think my experience with the "Linux World" is pretty much like millions of other users. Linux on the desktop is, for the most part stagnant and I stand by the contention that Linux apps are not there yet and probably won't be. Just telling me and others that we don't know about the Linux world is not persuasive. Most of us who tried Linux got only as far as complications or apps that don't cut the mustard and said, "Linux is not for me" I'm glad you like it and work well with it. But please don't take the "you have very little knowledge" thought too far. My contention is that we (the great unwashed- those who are not hobbyists or techies) shouldn't have to know that much about learning any OS. We fall into a different category. We're neither better or worse than a well versed Linux user- just different.

Be we have gone far astray from Noyes contention that flashback Mac Malware is One More Reason to Switch to Linux. The proposition is ridiculous on it's face and demonstrates, in my opinion, Ms. Noyes absolute bias and agenda.

I arrived at similar conclusions to yours, re Linux, some time ago. Just no point, really. I've always been totally happy with my Macs.

Aside from that, I think I remember you saying you run Sophos Antivirus. Have you had any recent malware-definition updates? You might be interested to know that my Intego VirusBarrier X6 has just (20 minutes ago) automatically updated malware definitions yet again. That makes it three straight days and four times in the last 10 days or so. I mention that because the usual updates, although regular, have averaged only once every 10 days or so since I installed it (late January).

I think I hear not-so-distant thunder...

This post has been edited by artzy65: 14 April 2012 - 08:59 AM

[nonseq]

artzy65, on 14 April 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

nonseq, on 14 April 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I think my experience with the "Linux World" is pretty much like millions of other users. Linux on the desktop is, for the most part stagnant and I stand by the contention that Linux apps are not there yet and probably won't be. Just telling me and others that we don't know about the Linux world is not persuasive. Most of us who tried Linux got only as far as complications or apps that don't cut the mustard and said, "Linux is not for me" I'm glad you like it and work well with it. But please don't take the "you have very little knowledge" thought too far. My contention is that we (the great unwashed- those who are not hobbyists or techies) shouldn't have to know that much about learning any OS. We fall into a different category. We're neither better or worse than a well versed Linux user- just different.

Be we have gone far astray from Noyes contention that flashback Mac Malware is One More Reason to Switch to Linux. The proposition is ridiculous on it's face and demonstrates, in my opinion, Ms. Noyes absolute bias and agenda.

I arrived at similar conclusions to yours, re Linux, some time ago. Just no point, really. I've always been totally happy with my Macs.

Aside from that, I think I remember you saying you run Sophos Antivirus. Have you had any recent malware-definition updates? You might be interested to know that my Intego VirusBarrier X6 has just (20 minutes ago) automatically updated malware definitions yet again. That makes it three straight days and four times in the last 10 days or so. I mention that because the usual updates, although regular, have averaged only once every 10 days or so since I installed it (late January).

I think I hear not-so-distant thunder...

I frankly haven't notice any Sophos updates but it is on autopilot and last update was today. It's something that I really don't worry about. I try to practice Safe Internet so, in my opinion, my risk is minimal and I just trust Sophos to do its job and other than a little slow down as it scans, it works great for me.

Just like everything else, I want to use my mac to do stuff and not futz with it. (That said, I think I'm pretty capable and support some 20 or thirty macs owned by friends and family along with a handful of windows machines- in a very superfical way)

Time spent futzing is non-billable time or time when I'm not doing the things I want and need to do with my computers. Others get great pleasure from tweaking and tuning their systems and that is great. It's just not for me.

[artzy65]

nonseq, on 14 April 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

I frankly haven't notice any Sophos updates but it is on autopilot and last update was today. It's something that I really don't worry about. I try to practice Safe Internet so, in my opinion, my risk is minimal and I just trust Sophos to do its job and other than a little slow down as it scans, it works great for me.

Just like everything else, I want to use my mac to do stuff and not futz with it. (That said, I think I'm pretty capable and support some 20 or thirty macs owned by friends and family along with a handful of windows machines- in a very superfical way)

Time spent futzing is non-billable time or time when I'm not doing the things I want and need to do with my computers. Others get great pleasure from tweaking and tuning their systems and that is great. It's just not for me.

Life itself is one big futz. We are always tweaking ourselves haha

This post has been edited by artzy65: 14 April 2012 - 11:13 AM

[DivineShadow]

I don't think it's possible for this article to be any more desperate. Move to the dog's breakfast of Linux, losing support for almost every piece of software you own and most of your devices because the Mac finally got a nasty trojan?

Give me a break.

[artzy65]

DivineShadow, on 14 April 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I don't think it's possible for this article to be any more desperate. Move to the dog's breakfast of Linux, losing support for almost every piece of software you own and most of your devices because the Mac finally got a nasty trojan?

Give me a break.

It's clickbait.. tongue in cheek. No one is dumb enough to do what they are 'suggesting' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). Just harden your Mac, and never mind that other nonsense about switching.

This post has been edited by artzy65: 14 April 2012 - 06:46 PM

[MichaelBurrington]

nonseq, on 12 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Linux is simply not for the rest of us and we make up well over 90% of the market.

I know you are Trolling, but that's no excuse to not get your facts correct. MS Windows on the desktop dropped below the 90% mark late 2008, and is now somewhere just below 80% and slowly dropping. Windows Vista really hurt MS sales and gave reason to let users trying other operating systems. As far as fragmentation of the OS, Windows has it's own problems with the majority of Windows users still using XP - which becomes non-supported next year!

Linux is by far much much easier to set up that Windows 7 - except when it comes to setting up printers and scanners in Linux, which I still don't understand why though. Overall, most things in Linux just work out of the box (my experience with LinuxMint, LMDE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu and a few others). I thought Windows 8 was going to fix the drivers issues, but that still seems to be a problem.

As far as software goes, I don't have any issues with formatting MS Office to LibreOffice, and vice versa. My beef with LibreOffice is that there isn't a suitable replacement for Access. There really is not replacement for Acrobat Pro on the Linux side. But I use both Gimp and Photoshop, and the biggest difference I can find is about $800 out of pocket that I don't have to spend for GIMP.

[nonseq]

MichaelBurrington, on 17 April 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

nonseq, on 12 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Linux is simply not for the rest of us and we make up well over 90% of the market.

I know you are Trolling, but that's no excuse to not get your facts correct. MS Windows on the desktop dropped below the 90% mark late 2008, and is now somewhere just below 80% and slowly dropping. Windows Vista really hurt MS sales and gave reason to let users trying other operating systems. As far as fragmentation of the OS, Windows has it's own problems with the majority of Windows users still using XP - which becomes non-supported next year!

Linux is by far much much easier to set up that Windows 7 - except when it comes to setting up printers and scanners in Linux, which I still don't understand why though. Overall, most things in Linux just work out of the box (my experience with LinuxMint, LMDE, Kubuntu, Ubuntu and a few others). I thought Windows 8 was going to fix the drivers issues, but that still seems to be a problem.

As far as software goes, I don't have any issues with formatting MS Office to LibreOffice, and vice versa. My beef with LibreOffice is that there isn't a suitable replacement for Access. There really is not replacement for Acrobat Pro on the Linux side. But I use both Gimp and Photoshop, and the biggest difference I can find is about $800 out of pocket that I don't have to spend for GIMP.

Oh good grief. Linux on the Desktop has managed 2-3% in twenty years. Get a clue. It's a great OS, copied from a terrific OS, but in it's current state, too many gatekeepers are required to make halfway useful. Get your fact straight and prove them please. Cite real sources if you don't mind.

I'm not trolling I'm a realist. Linux, with it's current development model, cute names, fragmentation, and half baked apps will never be more than a marginal influence. Deal with it and please don't force it on people who will ultimately regret it.

This post has been edited by nonseq: 17 April 2012 - 04:58 AM

[Nuke61]

MichaelBurrington, on 17 April 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

I know you are Trolling, but that's no excuse to not get your facts correct. MS Windows on the desktop dropped below the 90% mark late 2008, and is now somewhere just below 80% and slowly dropping. Windows Vista really hurt MS sales and gave reason to let users trying other operating systems. As far as fragmentation of the OS, Windows has it's own problems with the majority of Windows users still using XP - which becomes non-supported next year!

Yet Linux is still down in the low single digits. Maybe it's because despite what all the Linux supporters think, it really isn't ready for the mainstream user. It seems to work well for governmental installations and even corporate installations, but those installs have an administrator or even entire departments to take care of the Linux administration. Not a reason to switch.

Quote

Linux is by far much much easier to set up that Windows 7 - except when it comes to setting up printers and scanners in Linux, which I still don't understand why though.

Most users don't ever install Windows. What they *do* end up doing though, is hook up a printer or scanner. By your own admission, where are those users more likely to have problems? Since this article is about Mac malware, I'll point out that I have found this even easier under OS X than Windows. Not a reason to switch.

Quote

As far as software goes, I don't have any issues with formatting MS Office to LibreOffice, and vice versa. My beef with LibreOffice is that there isn't a suitable replacement for Access. There really is not replacement for Acrobat Pro on the Linux side. But I use both Gimp and Photoshop, and the biggest difference I can find is about $800 out of pocket that I don't have to spend for GIMP.

That's not a reason to switch either, since much/most of the stuff that's free and available for Linux is also free and available for Windows and OS X. With the introduction of the Mac app store, the prices of apps that *do* cost money have dropped. I'm guessing it's because the easy availability to a huge audience makes it easy to drop prices but make it up in volume. Again, not a reason to switch.

Apple has recently introduced Gatekeeper, which is essentially sandboxing for most applications. It's similar to LSM in Linux, but it's done up front by Apple and the developer, rather than relying on the user to do it. This malware *might* be an impetus to switch if you've already considered it, but soon even that will be gone.

This post has been edited by Nuke61: 17 April 2012 - 05:27 AM

[JohnShepherd]

nonseq, on 17 April 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Oh good grief. Linux on the Desktop has managed 2-3% in twenty years. Get a clue. It's a great OS, copied from a terrific OS, but in it's current state, too many gatekeepers are required to make halfway useful. Get your fact straight and prove them please. Cite real sources if you don't mind.

I'm not trolling I'm a realist. Linux, with it's current development model, cute names, fragmentation, and half baked apps will never be more than a marginal influence. Deal with it and please don't force it on people who will ultimately regret it.

Isn't it hypocritical to chastise others for not proving facts or citing sources, yet then go on to make a series of completely unsupported assertions with no evidence presented to back any of them up?

Please explain why tens of millions of people find Linux a perfectly acceptable desktop yet you maintain that it simply can't be. Not isn't just for you - simply can NOT be for anyone, period.

Please explain how open source's development model - from rapid releases, community feedback, open bug trackers, "With enough eyes all bugs are shallow", etc. - is a hindrance to the Linux kernel and ecosystem, and how limiting its development to a much smaller number of developers who develop in a secret and keep the bug tracker confidential and disallow outside contributions or inspection of the code would improve its development. When answering, please answer which was was the first OS to include USB 3 and Kinect driver support.

Please explain how "cute names" hinder an operating system or software. When answering, please incorporate the words "Windows", "Apple" and "Google".

Please explain how multiple Linux distros are "fragmentation" and not "diversity". When answering, please explain which kernel all distros and run and as a side note explain in evolutionary terms whether a monolithic or diverse population is more likely to survive a virus outbreak and then apply this same reasoning to software diversity. Also please explain how one size does indeed fit all.

Please identify which essential applications are half-baked. When done, please explain why it's taken more than 10 years to (somewhat) fix the statistical functions in Excel but a small handful of unpaid volunteers were able to fix the open source spreadsheet Gnumeric's problems in a few weeks.

99% of people can get along fine with Windows... or OS X... or Linux. If you wish to promote your OS of choice, that's fine. What you're doing though is what political candidates do who decide to act as if they've already won their primary and refuse to mention their challengers by name - you're attempting to de-legitimize the competition. Microsoft adopted the same tactic recently when in response to a complaint about their secure boot intentions via a white paper by Red Hat, Microsoft refused to mention Linux by name in its reply, only referring to "alternative" operating systems. It's embarrassing for supporters of your OS of choice because it suggests you don't think it can compete on features or performance.

[DarcyMoloneycx6g]

nonseq, on 12 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

linuxrants7xpg, on 12 April 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

artzy65, on 12 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

linuxrants7xpg, on 12 April 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Wow, that really brought the trolls screaming out from under the bridge. Linux is a great solution for a desktop user that just wants to get work done. Those that think that's not the case probably haven't used Linux, and probably wouldn't even if it came with a free wad of $100 bills. Trolls will troll, and life goes on.

Let's see you run QuarkXPress, Photoshop, etc on Linux hahaha

Why would I want to run any of that?

Because you have limited need for professional and creative programs you probably won't You are, in my opinion, atypical and not representative of average non-technical users.

To each his/her own.

The average user actually does not need or won't use programs like Photoshop. The average use uses programs like Paint or Office. Do you want to know why? After spending $1000 on a new HP highend laptop they don't need, the shop assistant will convince the average windows to upgrade to Windows Elite/Ultimate for $500 then the full Office Business for $300 extra. Do you reckon the average user can even afford Photoshop when it cost over $2000 for CS5.5?

This kind of user is 80% of everyone I know over 35yrs, 40% of 25-35yrs and 30% of less than 25yrs. And most of those would not even know of what Photoshop was, other than the 'Photo-shoped' photos you see on T.V.

Thank you for time and consideration,
Now leave you to your flame wars

[rview]

It amazes me at all the bashing that goes on. I've been a Linux user for over 6 years, it's been the only os I use for my own personal and business use. It does everything I need, period. I assemble my own desktops, I see no reason to pay for any os or software when it does nothing more than what I have now. This takes less than 15 minutes to install AND configure. With the right printers, they do just plug in and work, wireless ones are simple to set up as well. Rock solid as well, I've very rarely had a freeze or crash. Haven't "needed" to touch a command line for setup in the last number of years. I've set up some of my neighbors as well, some as primary use, others for internet boxes, I haven't had any complaints. I repair many computers for neighbors, my use of Linux and livecds in particular has saved me a LOT of time during recovery operations.

It comes down to choice. I like what I use, "you" like what you use, what difference does it make? Some people like tea, others coffee, why bash people that like what you don't? Unless of course you have nothing better to do, like must be the case with some of the most vocal here.

[nonseq]

JohnShepherd, on 18 April 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

nonseq, on 17 April 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Oh good grief. Linux on the Desktop has managed 2-3% in twenty years. Get a clue. It's a great OS, copied from a terrific OS, but in it's current state, too many gatekeepers are required to make halfway useful. Get your fact straight and prove them please. Cite real sources if you don't mind.

I'm not trolling I'm a realist. Linux, with it's current development model, cute names, fragmentation, and half baked apps will never be more than a marginal influence. Deal with it and please don't force it on people who will ultimately regret it.

Isn't it hypocritical to chastise others for not proving facts or citing sources, yet then go on to make a series of completely unsupported assertions with no evidence presented to back any of them up?

Please explain why tens of millions of people find Linux a perfectly acceptable desktop yet you maintain that it simply can't be. Not isn't just for you - simply can NOT be for anyone, period.

Please explain how open source's development model - from rapid releases, community feedback, open bug trackers, "With enough eyes all bugs are shallow", etc. - is a hindrance to the Linux kernel and ecosystem, and how limiting its development to a much smaller number of developers who develop in a secret and keep the bug tracker confidential and disallow outside contributions or inspection of the code would improve its development. When answering, please answer which was was the first OS to include USB 3 and Kinect driver support.

Please explain how "cute names" hinder an operating system or software. When answering, please incorporate the words "Windows", "Apple" and "Google".

Please explain how multiple Linux distros are "fragmentation" and not "diversity". When answering, please explain which kernel all distros and run and as a side note explain in evolutionary terms whether a monolithic or diverse population is more likely to survive a virus outbreak and then apply this same reasoning to software diversity. Also please explain how one size does indeed fit all.

Please identify which essential applications are half-baked. When done, please explain why it's taken more than 10 years to (somewhat) fix the statistical functions in Excel but a small handful of unpaid volunteers were able to fix the open source spreadsheet Gnumeric's problems in a few weeks.

99% of people can get along fine with Windows... or OS X... or Linux. If you wish to promote your OS of choice, that's fine. What you're doing though is what political candidates do who decide to act as if they've already won their primary and refuse to mention their challengers by name - you're attempting to de-legitimize the competition. Microsoft adopted the same tactic recently when in response to a complaint about their secure boot intentions via a white paper by Red Hat, Microsoft refused to mention Linux by name in its reply, only referring to "alternative" operating systems. It's embarrassing for supporters of your OS of choice because it suggests you don't think it can compete on features or performance.

OK, I was wrong. I was being generous. http://www.pcworld.c...ent_months.html

Quote

In August 2011, Gartner estimated Apple's PC market share in US as 10.7% for Q2 2011. Apple's worldwide market share is not listed, because it is not in the list of top 5 computer manufacturers, and is inferred to be 5% or lower. Gartner's numbers include netbooks, but not media tablets such as the iPad. Total units in Q2 2011 from all vendors, ~85 million.

"A Gartner forecast calls for Mac OS to ship on 4.5 percent of new PCs worldwide in 2011 and 5.2 percent in 2012. Gartner does not expect Google Chrome OS, Google Android or HP's webOS to get 'any significant market share' on PCs in the next few years, and expects Linux operating systems to remain at less than 2 percent share over the next several years."

Analyst Charlie Wolf of Needham & Co. has stated that in 2011 Apple broke 5% of global desktop market share for the first time.

Net Applications has estimated global desktop market share of Windows 92.2%, Apple 6.36%, Linux 1.41%.

http://en.wikipedia....imates_for_2011

There may be 10s of millions of happy linux desktop users though I have only seen anecdotal data and lots of claims from the faithful.

I don't think that Linux is a bad OS at all but I think that is not for the average user. Too many distros, too many cute names for the distros, too many UIs, no focus or real goals for product development, and too may gatekeepers make it unreachable for the majority of users.

Linux is great for servers, back office, super-computing, render farms, etc. Kudos to Torvalds and those who have made it a powerful (yet minority- except super computing) in those applications.

It does not offer an easily marketed and embraced complete product for desktop users who are not hobbyists and/or those who do not know or want to know how their computers do the things they want to do.

I stand by my position on the applications for Linux and while perhaps the majority have no need for Photoshop, they have a need and desire for apps like Photoshop Elements and a broad range of similar Windows and Mac programs which do not require expertise or a gatekeeper to get quality output easily.

I know y'all really like LibreOffice/OO.org and the GIMP but they are pale shadows of programs in the Windows and Mac universes. You can disagree and I'm happy that so many have found Linux to be the ideal solution.

That said Ms. Noyes assertion that "'flashback' Mac Malware: [is] One More Reason To Switch To Linux" is ludicrous, in my opinion