[Nuke61]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

You know what else is selfish, denying people what they want because you (not you personally) think they don't need it or personally don't like it.

Business does that all the time. I go to a local steak and chop house called Donovan's in La Jolla. I don't go there and ask for a hamburger, because that's not what they offer - what they do have is among the best New York Strip steaks I've ever had, along with other steaks and pork chop plates. Over time, as tastes have shifted, they have offered things they didn't offer in the past. Likewise, if Apple sees that the market simply insists on having 4" or larger smart phone screen sizes, and iPhone sales suffer as a result, they will offer it. Have iPhone sales suffered? I'm not sure, but I think they set another record for quarterly sales of iPhones, but in any case, they are clearly not suffering a loss of sales. They just don't do the "throw everything at the fan and see what sticks" routine that so many other manufacturers do.

Microsoft also restricts access to the phone OS file system. Should they allow it simply because some fraction of percentage of the users want it? Microsoft also didn't allow Flash on their mobile OS -- where was the outrage? We've been down this road before... if you want access to multiple screen sizes, Flash, a common file system, your choice is Android. If you want access to a vast library of music, podcasts, university classes on audio, etc., then Apple is a much better choice -- as long as you can accept the limitations. The advantage Apple has is a coherent method for obtaining and then accessing content on your iOS device, the disadvantage is limited access to the nuts and bolts of iOS. That's by design and you can either live with it or move on with your life.

[42n81]

waldojim, on 26 April 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I wasn't going to get involved in this debate - and probably shouldn't still...

As a long tim user of smartphones (before they were the in thing), I have come to have different expectations out of them from one generation to the next. First it was "can it hit up the internet, and perform basic tasks?" That answer was yes. Then it was "can I watch movies on it?" That was answered with the Omnia - YES! Then it was FLAC audio, games and eventually Netflix. When asked if it could do more mundane tasks, like playing music, I said sure it can, and brought up the media player of the week and played back a song or two.

It wasn't until last night that I finally thought about everything it does, and doesn't do, put that in relationship to what I really use and don't, and then thought about how easy it was to do those things. I found myself with a problem. My HTC Incredible 2 makes life HARD to do simple things. Sync Music? Sure it can, into non-standard folders that seemingly have no rhyme or reason. Play music? Sure, I can select ONE SONG at a time. OR use a 3rd party application (like Winamp) to achieve a half-assed solution. Where is the media focus? Where is the iTunes killer? Then I thought about the applications I have that are easy to use: N64oid, Gamboid, robo defense, and netflix. Netflix leaves a LOT to be desired. Crackle, Slacker, and i Heart Radio are all crap. They are either a pain to use, or have so many ads throughout them that they are near useless. Shoot even the marketplace "Google Play Store" now, has gotten to be a PITA to use.

Unless something drastic changes, in December, I am buying a freaking iPhone. WHY? To get polished apps, get away from advertising, and have a true media phone.

Android has the ability. Google has the ability even to make Android kick ass here. They are choosing not to.

Hi Waldojim.

The Business Insider article at the link following my comment supports your observation that Google has dropped the ball and my opinion that Google goofed big time when it announced its intention to buy Motorola.

Samsung indeed seems the one to watch out for. Their unique position as a major manufacturer of a wide range of electronic devices gives them the potential to set the standard for hardware convergence across multiple platforms.

The good news for Samsung is that doing so should be relatively simple for them. The bad news is that they have to take control of their operating system and their ecosystem. That's bad news for Google, and good news for Apple, at least in the short to medium term. Introducing a new OS and establishing an ecosystem doesn't happen overnight even if Samsung has everything ready and goes live right this moment. It's also bad news for all the smaller players who are stuck with Android.

In the meantime, Samsung needs to fire their marketing department and find new legal counsel. They're presently getting some very bad advice from both.

See: DEAR SAMSUNG: Google Screwed Up -- Time To Ditch Them And Go After Apple Yourself

This post has been edited by 42n81: 27 April 2012 - 05:46 AM

[KLanD]

linuxrants7xpg, on 26 April 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Nuke61, on 26 April 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

So you think those tens of millions of people bought iPods, iPhones and iPads based on what Steve Jobs said? Where would they have heard it? The sales pitch, the advertisement, is what the millions see on TV -- and it doesn't have the CEO in it.

I think that tens of millions of people bought products that Steve Jobs approved and were promoted with sales campaigns that Steve Jobs approved. I can't be certain that Apple won't just keep making money hand over fist with products that people line up for days to buy. No one can without a time machine, but it's my belief that Apple can not continue on it's current vector without Jobs's input. If you disagree with that, that's fine. I can't prove anything either way. We'll have to wait and see.

Just to play devils advocate...

It may swing the other way as well. They might decide to open the walled garden, not completely mind you, but they might be more open to new and existing tech without Steve's personal bias fueling what they do.

In that case, I might buy an Apple product for myself as well as others who don't buy into the "we give you what we think you need" philosophy.

[KLanD]

42n81, on 26 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

KLanD, on 26 April 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

nonseq, on 26 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

edelbrp, on 25 April 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

linuxrants7xpg, on 25 April 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Tried that.

OK, take care, I enjoyed the debate.

Have a good night, OK? :')

In United States tax law, the definition of fair market value is found in the United States Supreme Court decision in the Cartwright case:

The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts. United States v. Cartwright, 411 U. S. 546, 93 S. Ct. 1713, 1716-17, 36 L. Ed. 2d 528, 73-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) ¶ 12,926 (1973) (quoting from U.S. Treasury regulations relating to Federal estate taxes, at 26 C.F.R. sec. 20.2031-1).

Wow, so I can legally screw people? Cause by that quote, if I charge %200 more than the actual value of the product as long as some sucker is willing to buy it, it's the "fair market value".

Good to know.

Hallelujah! You finally understand that very basic principle and cornerstone of capitalism!

Now go out and make a fortune.

Except there are laws in place to prevent people from doing this.

[KLanD]

42n81, on 26 April 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

KLanD, on 26 April 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Nuke61, on 25 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

linuxrants7xpg, on 25 April 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I disagree. All you have to do is maintain an adequate product (it doesn't even have to be good) as well as a continuing sales pitch telling you how great the product is. People are already roped into the product because they were convinced it was great to start out with, and they've now invested in the platform. As long as they don't have something change their mind such as an extremely bad release, or a competing product that absolutely dwarfs it (a product only marginally better won't due), people will continue to believe the pitch. All that depends on whether you believe the pitch given to you by the salesman of course. Trouble with that is, if the salesman isn't good, you're in a whole lotta trouble.

If all Apple has to do is produce an adequate product and have a good sales pitch, then Apple shoul be set for the foreseeable future. The iPhone and iPad are arguably among the top products in their categories. The latest iPad was just released and it is clearly among the best tablets available, maybe not the best, depending on your specific needs, but certainly in one of the top spots. All the iPhone is missing is 4G and maybe a slightly larger size. The sales pitch wasn't made or broken by Jobs, and it won't be made or broken by Cook. The sales pitch is made on TV by the same marketing firm that sold the public the current iPhone and doesn't rely on who is sitting at the CEO's desk.

Yes, but in the Apple circle, wanting something Apple doesn't have is akin to blasphemy.

Interesting. Where can find this "Apple circle"? Is it like a crop circle? Do I need to fly over it in a plane to observe it?

I read quite a bit about Apple from the financial, business and enthusiast perspective yet I haven't come across any mention of the blasphemy you mention or anything like it.

Quote

Remember if you want a feature that isn't available on an Apple product, then Apple isn't for you. If you want whatever Apple gives you, then Apple is perfect for you.

Wow. That's your second epiphany today!

You really ARE starting to understand. Keep it up. You're doing great!

Thanks for proving my first statement.

[KLanD]

waldojim, on 26 April 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I wasn't going to get involved in this debate - and probably shouldn't still...

As a long tim user of smartphones (before they were the in thing), I have come to have different expectations out of them from one generation to the next. First it was "can it hit up the internet, and perform basic tasks?" That answer was yes. Then it was "can I watch movies on it?" That was answered with the Omnia - YES! Then it was FLAC audio, games and eventually Netflix. When asked if it could do more mundane tasks, like playing music, I said sure it can, and brought up the media player of the week and played back a song or two.

It wasn't until last night that I finally thought about everything it does, and doesn't do, put that in relationship to what I really use and don't, and then thought about how easy it was to do those things. I found myself with a problem. My HTC Incredible 2 makes life HARD to do simple things. Sync Music? Sure it can, into non-standard folders that seemingly have no rhyme or reason. Play music? Sure, I can select ONE SONG at a time. OR use a 3rd party application (like Winamp) to achieve a half-assed solution. Where is the media focus? Where is the iTunes killer? Then I thought about the applications I have that are easy to use: N64oid, Gamboid, robo defense, and netflix. Netflix leaves a LOT to be desired. Crackle, Slacker, and i Heart Radio are all crap. They are either a pain to use, or have so many ads throughout them that they are near useless. Shoot even the marketplace "Google Play Store" now, has gotten to be a PITA to use.

Unless something drastic changes, in December, I am buying a freaking iPhone. WHY? To get polished apps, get away from advertising, and have a true media phone.

Android has the ability. Google has the ability even to make Android kick ass here. They are choosing not to.

Wow.. what version of Android are you using? Doing all that on my S2 is smooth as silk. Hell, I'd say it's even easier than having to sync with Itunes.

[KLanD]

artzy65, on 26 April 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

KLanD, on 26 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Actually, I think Apple will be just fine.

It's the cult of Apple that I think will slowly dwindle.

Apple's status now destroys any notion of 'cult'. I actually miss those 'us-against-the-world' days, before iThis and iThat.

Not really. A lot of people who buy Apple products aren't what I'd call Apple cultists.

[42n81]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

42n81, on 26 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

KLanD, on 26 April 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

nonseq, on 26 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

In United States tax law, the definition of fair market value is found in the United States Supreme Court decision in the Cartwright case:

The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts. United States v. Cartwright, 411 U. S. 546, 93 S. Ct. 1713, 1716-17, 36 L. Ed. 2d 528, 73-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) ¶ 12,926 (1973) (quoting from U.S. Treasury regulations relating to Federal estate taxes, at 26 C.F.R. sec. 20.2031-1).

Wow, so I can legally screw people? Cause by that quote, if I charge %200 more than the actual value of the product as long as some sucker is willing to buy it, it's the "fair market value".

Good to know.

Hallelujah! You finally understand that very basic principle and cornerstone of capitalism!

Now go out and make a fortune.

Except there are laws in place to prevent people from doing this.

Well, don't stop there. Tell us what laws you're basing you're basing your position on. Please.

This post has been edited by 42n81: 27 April 2012 - 06:14 AM

[crosswordbob]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

I haven't gone back to check, but I don't believe he said anyone was delusional either.

Being pulled in by stellar market in no way means you are delusional, neither does enjoying a product.

His post talked about "convincing people that what Apple was doing actually was innovation". The clear implication being that it somehow in fact wasn't, but that we've been convinced otherwise. Being convinced of something that is untrue would be delusional. It's the tired old insinuation that people only like Apple's products or consider them innovative because we've been duped, while those who don't buy Apple can see the "truth".

Let me be clear: I have NO problem with people who don't like Apple products, but I DO take umbrage at those who try to portray people who do as credulous products of marketing.

[crosswordbob]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

You know what else is selfish, denying people what they want because you (not you personally) think they don't need it or personally don't like it.

Really? So vegetarian restaurants are selfish? Why should Apple be forced to make their product the way you like it?

[Nuke61]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Wow.. what version of Android are you using? Doing all that on my S2 is smooth as silk. Hell, I'd say it's even easier than having to sync with Itunes.

Maybe you can help me with my podcasts... I listen to many podcasts on the Twit.TV website. As I said previously, on my iPad it's easy to do this, but I haven't found a similarly simple way on my DInc2, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that I just don't know how to do it.

So... how do I get podcasts downloaded from Twit.TV onto my DInc2 and then play them? I already have a process, but maybe you know a simpler way to do it.

[crosswordbob]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Or they have heard the hype so many times, it's all they know.

I often get people (non tech) asking me, "why did you get that phone instead of an iPhone? I mean, the iPhone is the best right?"

And have you ever asked them why they believe this? You think adverts are the main source for this belief? No. The best adverts in the world wouldn't sustain a product with a user-base the size of the iPhone if it wasn't a damn fine product. It's strange—people who object every time Apple use phrases like "magical", while seeming quite comfortable with the idea that their marketing team routinely achieves superhuman feats of mind-control.

Once again: if it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.

[HankRearden]

Nuke61, on 27 April 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Wow.. what version of Android are you using? Doing all that on my S2 is smooth as silk. Hell, I'd say it's even easier than having to sync with Itunes.

Maybe you can help me with my podcasts... I listen to many podcasts on the Twit.TV website. As I said previously, on my iPad it's easy to do this, but I haven't found a similarly simple way on my DInc2, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that I just don't know how to do it.

So... how do I get podcasts downloaded from Twit.TV onto my DInc2 and then play them? I already have a process, but maybe you know a simpler way to do it.

Have you tried Doggcatcher? Search for that in the Android Market.

[waldojim]

crosswordbob, on 27 April 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

waldojim, on 26 April 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

HankRearden, on 26 April 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Almost exactly how I felt. Love the idea of the file system. For email it is so nice to be in an email and then add an attachment. Which iOS 5 still cannot do. But in all honesty, it comes up so rarely. I just use ReadleDocs as my file system. It's almost a file system. Close, but not quite there. But absolutely good enough. Most of the time I just need to send a PDF to someone. If I don't wish to forward the email with the PDF, which for me is most of the time, then I can save the PDF to ReadleDocs and use ReadleDocs to then send it as a new email. I can do the same with PDFPenPro, Acrobat or anything else that can be the app that opens the PDF. The same goes for other files. I got used to this approach in all of 5 seconds and it works really well. And since that little discovery, I've cared a whole lot less about a file system.

So wait a second, are you saying I cannot email pictures to my family? Many of them don't have phones capable of receiving pictures, emailing them is a must. Or are you saying it is just impossible to add the attachment after you already started the email? That won't bother me too much...

You can absolutely e-mail pictures. Using the stock apps, you cannot add attachments after starting the e-mail—instead you navigate to the pic then select "share by e-mail". I'm really not sure why they've never Implemented the former method. However, there are quite a few alternative e-mail clients, including Gmail that implement attachments from within rhe mail composition. Other apps, such as GoodReader that Hank mentioned, offer e-mail attachment of other file types, but again you would generally do this by navigating to your file and hitting "share".

Ok, that sounds quite acceptable. Thanks for clearing that up.

[waldojim]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

waldojim, on 26 April 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I wasn't going to get involved in this debate - and probably shouldn't still...

As a long tim user of smartphones (before they were the in thing), I have come to have different expectations out of them from one generation to the next. First it was "can it hit up the internet, and perform basic tasks?" That answer was yes. Then it was "can I watch movies on it?" That was answered with the Omnia - YES! Then it was FLAC audio, games and eventually Netflix. When asked if it could do more mundane tasks, like playing music, I said sure it can, and brought up the media player of the week and played back a song or two.

It wasn't until last night that I finally thought about everything it does, and doesn't do, put that in relationship to what I really use and don't, and then thought about how easy it was to do those things. I found myself with a problem. My HTC Incredible 2 makes life HARD to do simple things. Sync Music? Sure it can, into non-standard folders that seemingly have no rhyme or reason. Play music? Sure, I can select ONE SONG at a time. OR use a 3rd party application (like Winamp) to achieve a half-assed solution. Where is the media focus? Where is the iTunes killer? Then I thought about the applications I have that are easy to use: N64oid, Gamboid, robo defense, and netflix. Netflix leaves a LOT to be desired. Crackle, Slacker, and i Heart Radio are all crap. They are either a pain to use, or have so many ads throughout them that they are near useless. Shoot even the marketplace "Google Play Store" now, has gotten to be a PITA to use.

Unless something drastic changes, in December, I am buying a freaking iPhone. WHY? To get polished apps, get away from advertising, and have a true media phone.

Android has the ability. Google has the ability even to make Android kick ass here. They are choosing not to.

Wow.. what version of Android are you using? Doing all that on my S2 is smooth as silk. Hell, I'd say it's even easier than having to sync with Itunes.

I think you skipped right past the point without considering it. Then even put the big red flag in your comment.
What version of Android am I using? Why should it matter?
This is something that should just work. Yet not only does sync not work worth a crap, nor do the media apps. The third party apps are riddled with intrusive advertising. What is there to like when you apps ask you 1000 times to upgrade from pro to elite? What is there to like when you are interrupted 1000 more times with "horny? Try the pork me app!"?

[Lsatenstein]

Apple has been skimming the market because they were first. First does not mean better, it means that the competition has to catch up.

When the competition arrives, and it has already started, you will see costs that are 60-70 percent less than Apple, and units that may be repairable, designed for 10 year life spans. In my estimation, the Iphone, Ipad has a 3 year life span.

[Nuke61]

HankRearden, on 27 April 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

Nuke61, on 27 April 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

So... how do I get podcasts downloaded from Twit.TV onto my DInc2 and then play them? I already have a process, but maybe you know a simpler way to do it.

Have you tried Doggcatcher? Search for that in the Android Market.

Thanks, I originally hoped there was a built-in solution, like iTunes on the iPad/iPhone, but soon figured I'd have to find an app to do it. I've tried some other podcast apps, but they insisted on using a streaming solution. It's $5, but Dogcatcher looks like it's going to work for the Twit podcasts, so I'll do the trial and probably buy it. However, it looks like it's a no-go for the University lectures. It makes sense though, since they're iTunes University entries in iTunes. For anyone who hasn't checked it out, I highly recommend browsing around iTunes University, whether it's on your desktop or mobile device. There's a vast amount of top grade instruction from a large number of Universities. Really good stuff!

[artzy65]

KLanD, on 27 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Apple has that "In crowd" thing going for it just as much as a decent product.

As a longtime Mac-only user, it was more fun being one of 'the rest of us', back in the day. Being the underdog seemed somehow more noble.

This post has been edited by artzy65: 27 April 2012 - 07:42 AM

[HankRearden]

waldojim, on 27 April 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I think you skipped right past the point without considering it. Then even put the big red flag in your comment.
What version of Android am I using? Why should it matter?
This is something that should just work. Yet not only does sync not work worth a crap, nor do the media apps. The third party apps are riddled with intrusive advertising. What is there to like when you apps ask you 1000 times to upgrade from pro to elite? What is there to like when you are interrupted 1000 more times with "horny? Try the pork me app!"?

It's little things that annoyed me about Android as well. You can tap the headphone button and pause/play music. Double tap to go forward. Triple tape to go backward. Hold the button and you wake up Siri.

Ever since the iPod Apple had a really good content system to drive their iPod sales. I tried many times to leave iTunes for one reason or another, and always ended up returning to it. I still say it is a resource hog on the PC. On the Mac, iPad/iPhone it's wonderful. Absolute bliss of an app. I've always felt Apple should take the time to really make a solid PC version of iTunes. The majority of their customers are on WinTel. It would make a lot of sense. I do like the Mac a lot though. Switching to it was pretty easy. It doesn't feel clunky. No registry to worry about. I use AppZapper to remove apps. Takes all of about 2 seconds to wipe an app off. Hard to believe it but I'm a huge fan of Pages and Numbers these days. Though Excel is easier to use in my opinion. Pages has some pretty good benefits in terms of look and feel on screen and on paper. However I can get a complex sheet done more quickly in Excel.

I have less fear about installing apps and getting rid of them on the Mac. Settings are easier to deal with. Network settings, etc are very streamlined compared to Windows. In general Apple tends to keep it al very simple. Where as I feel Google and Microsoft tend to make simple things complicated and weird.

[artzy65]

Lsatenstein, on 27 April 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Apple has been skimming the market because they were first. First does not mean better, it means that the competition has to catch up.

When the competition arrives, and it has already started, you will see costs that are 60-70 percent less than Apple, and units that may be repairable, designed for 10 year life spans. In my estimation, the Iphone, Ipad has a 3 year life span.

First means that most people find that any given product is better.

This post has been edited by artzy65: 27 April 2012 - 07:54 AM