[RickDobbelmannqbtt]

waldojim, on 01 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

linuxrants7xpg, on 01 May 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

waldojim, on 30 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Linux most certainly is a flop (as it stands) depending on how you view things.

Hm, let's look at things objectively. There's an OS and it runs perfectly on less than 10% of the computers out there. The rest of them, you might be able to get it to work if you tinker enough and dig around in command lines and special scripts. It's game support is abysmal, and enterprise penetration barely registers on the scale. It lacks the software support that Windows has. It has some mainstream applications, but the rest you have to find alternatives for which depending on who you ask are just never as good as what Windows has. It's interface is really different from Windows. True, most people could figure it out pretty easily, but why should they have to? Yep, it's easy to see why such an OS has only managed to acquire single digit market share despite being available for decades. OSX is a total flop on the desktop.

Isn't it? At less than 5% for 30 years now, how is it not a flop as well? (apple computers that is - not just the current OS-X iteration)

The only reason it is gaining traction right now is because it is "in" to hate MS. That, and Apple finally managed to get their machines sold in more than just Apple stores.

To call Linux or OSX a flop is stupid. First off the only thing Microsoft has EVER been good at is MASS advertising to the general public.

Every operating system they have ever created has had serious flaws. Insane amout of security holes and driver issues that still do not make sense.

If it were not for their marketing campaign in the home user desktop market, Microsoft would be a utter failure.

To think of the desktop computer relative to the dawn of the digital age, the desktop is just leaving its infancy. People will always sit down to desktops.

You are correct it is IN to rip Microsoft. Because it is WELL deserved. They make terrible products, sue "joe company" for pattents they didn't create. They try and force people to buy in to their marketing campaign.

[kirovs]

This blog is a flop. At least in my reality, where 494-434=60.
Now, the alternative reality where the author lives and 494-434=50, well... maybe Linux is a flop there...
To the author: Seriously, learn simple arithmetics first:
"For example, the Dell Latitude 2120 with Windows 7 Home Premium is $494, while a similarly-loaded Ubuntu Latitude 2120 is $434 -- a savings of just $50."
BTW, 60 USD on a less than 500 bucks system is not little by any stretch.

[kirovs]

HankRearden, on 30 April 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

nonseq, on 30 April 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

IanHolton, on 30 April 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

If Linux is a flop then apple desktop must be a massive flop with all the momemtum behind it and it's still allegedly 5-10% of desktop usage depending on who you ask. In the end for me Linux has been a great success. I enjoy my computer which has run for years no problems. Seriosly I have never had a software failure in years I am a average user who came from windows becuase I was fed up with software failure. My Daughter has just brought a Windows 7 laptop and asked me to set it up, connect it to our network and printer. The printer is wireless two or three clicks to install in Linux. Windows 7 failed to find the driver I had to manually download the driver and am having issues still getting it to install. That's a flop as far as I'm concerned.

Hmm Linux available for 21 years and still 1.4% of the desktop. Apple's percentage has grown along with customer satisfaction, and profits. Apple seems to be meeting and exceeding its goals while the nature of linux and Open Source eliminates goals.

I've come to the conclusion that Linux is a very fine OS but is hampered- almost to extinction by the GNU/linux license. That's only my opinion but I think that Linux could have much larger market share almost overnight by developing some sort of hybrid proprietary/Open Source model- especially for developing sophisticated and professional applications that will meet and exceed consumer standards.

Another good point the article makes is that switching, even to a free OS, has a cost to it. Retraining employees, etc. Plus I've personally experienced the same issues raised in the article. GIMP doesn't cut the mustard when're Photoshop is needed. I thought at one point to use Inkwell, GIMP and a page layout app I forget what it is called. None of them worked for me. Libre Office is good enough I think for any business not using Marcos, or doing anything too complicated. It filled my needs just as well as Office does, except where Outlook is concerned. Evolution, which many distributions seem to love is the worst email client on the planet. No way I would use that day to day. Thunderbird is okay for personal, but not ideal and not as good as Outlook for exchange. I think Microsoft pretty much has corporate email in their back pocket. The new Apple Mail client in Lion is great. I could easily use that for business, but they need to allow more flag colors and follow up reminders with due dates that can due dates that then becomes tasks in Reminder. Apple Mail is getting close.

I think the average college student or home user should have no trouble with Linux. Good free productivity apps, nice games, free OS. Much better than what my Commodore 64 offered and that's what I used in school. Later I used an Amiga with Word Perfect 4.01. To me that was a killer app. But when going corporate I find I need other tools.

On Windows, Office, Project, Visio or on Mac, Office Mac, FastTrack, OmniGraffle. And either of those platforms needs Adobe creative suite. Also lots of specialized apps are needed. Some on Windows, some on Mac. I can't switch to Linux 100%. I couldn't even switch to Windows 100%. In fact, I can't use Macs 100%. I need both Windows and Macs. Linux I just like, but it doesn't have a real need for me right now. I just appreciate what the OpenSource community is doing. I like knowing I have an OS I can install when I want without having to worry about activation issues or software. Linux is a good thing to have in your corner for when you need it. Glad it's there.

We got switched from TB to Outlook. Most of the organization finds Outlook/Exchange horrendous. TB beats Outlook as a mail client hands down.

[Pablo9jpk]

funny he talk about the desktop flop... but all the reasons in the article go in corporation rethoric

[dailymisleader]

Until you try to play Neflix.

MikeYostjodt, on 30 April 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 30 April 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

nonseq, on 30 April 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Watcher426, on 30 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

while some valid points are made, I find it humorous when "experts" predict why Linux is flopping and why it has "less than 1% market share" If these people did real research about Linux and Unix, they'd see that it is easily 1/3 of all windows sales. Countless people dual boot and since one does not really purchases linux, they can't measure that either. millions use it so it is not 1%.

Why don't you post some links demonstrating your claim? I would appreciate it and I'm sure that others would as well. However, if you insist that we "google it" ourselves, it casts a read shadow of incredulity on your claim. Thanks

Dude seriously,

insert ad hominem.

You want people to proove their claims yet take your comments for your word.

Here is a link for you.. You do not even have to be lazy and google it yourself, I did it for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=linux+1%25+myth

That's pretty funny. Recent Ubuntu convert, and have to say that I am in no way looking back. Everything just feels more customizable/open/fast whatever you want to call it. No need searching for drivers or installing AV on first startup. All updates did their thing in the background and didn't even need a reboot.

Now, I work in IT so maybe I am just smarter than the average consumer, but after a week of testing, Linux is by far better than Windows.

[dailymisleader]

Linux is awesome, until you try doing what millions of people love, and watch a netflix movie.

[waldojim]

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 01 May 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

To call Linux or OSX a flop is stupid. First off the only thing Microsoft has EVER been good at is MASS advertising to the general public.

If you believe that tripe, then you are an ignorant fool. MS won back in the days of Dos when it was available on nearly every PC. It was ubiquitous, easy to find, and picked up by Big Blue. MS won the desktop when it completely took over the corporate world. People knew DOS from work. When they got home - they had PCs because it is what they used. The advertising to the public came much later in life. During the 90's - and the rise of the PC in every household - Steve Jobs was no longer at Apple, Systems 7 - 9 were garbage, and MS made it EASY for PC's to destroy Apple in the public market. Once MS became the 'standard' they won. Linux had nothing on Windows during that time frame either. Terrible hardware support, installers that were near impossible to understand, and new OS versions every week.

No, MS won because they had the right software available to the public at the right time. Believe anything else if you want, you only kid yourself.

Quote

Every operating system they have ever created has had serious flaws. Insane amout of security holes and driver issues that still do not make sense.

If it were not for their marketing campaign in the home user desktop market, Microsoft would be a utter failure.

To think of the desktop computer relative to the dawn of the digital age, the desktop is just leaving its infancy. People will always sit down to desktops.

You are correct it is IN to rip Microsoft. Because it is WELL deserved. They make terrible products, sue "joe company" for pattents they didn't create. They try and force people to buy in to their marketing campaign.

Security holes are a problem in ANY OS. Consider for a moment that in PWN2OWN, Apple machines are always the FIRST to drop, usually in minutes. Windows will at least last a couple hours. Driver issues? Not sure what you are talking about there. My drivers work perfectly - across a dozen machines. Can't say the same for Linux.

[kirovs]

waldojim, on 01 May 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 01 May 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

To call Linux or OSX a flop is stupid. First off the only thing Microsoft has EVER been good at is MASS advertising to the general public.

If you believe that tripe, then you are an ignorant fool. MS won back in the days of Dos when it was available on nearly every PC. It was ubiquitous, easy to find, and picked up by Big Blue. MS won the desktop when it completely took over the corporate world. People knew DOS from work. When they got home - they had PCs because it is what they used. The advertising to the public came much later in life. During the 90's - and the rise of the PC in every household - Steve Jobs was no longer at Apple, Systems 7 - 9 were garbage, and MS made it EASY for PC's to destroy Apple in the public market. Once MS became the 'standard' they won. Linux had nothing on Windows during that time frame either. Terrible hardware support, installers that were near impossible to understand, and new OS versions every week.
And yes- you are a fool.

No, MS won because they had the right software available to the public at the right time. Believe anything else if you want, you only kid yourself.

Quote

Every operating system they have ever created has had serious flaws. Insane amout of security holes and driver issues that still do not make sense.

If it were not for their marketing campaign in the home user desktop market, Microsoft would be a utter failure.

To think of the desktop computer relative to the dawn of the digital age, the desktop is just leaving its infancy. People will always sit down to desktops.

You are correct it is IN to rip Microsoft. Because it is WELL deserved. They make terrible products, sue "joe company" for pattents they didn't create. They try and force people to buy in to their marketing campaign.

Security holes are a problem in ANY OS. Consider for a moment that in PWN2OWN, Apple machines are always the FIRST to drop, usually in minutes. Windows will at least last a couple hours. Driver issues? Not sure what you are talking about there. My drivers work perfectly - across a dozen machines. Can't say the same for Linux.

Well, everything you say is such a stretch from the truth that I can call you a lier. Oh, drivers- try to install XP on hp 9207. Ubuntu installed 2 years ago as a breeze. XP was DOA.

This post has been edited by kirovs: 01 May 2012 - 08:24 AM

[MaFeW]

There's nothing particularly compelling about Windows except that it has been aggressively around longer. I've been on Linux for years and it was at first foreign to me, but once I got used to it, there was nothing better about Windows. I am able to install Linux on everything I have and be in control of the bloat and speed of the system. I guess that this article is trolling for reactions and got one from me. But if I were to install UBUNTU 12.04 LTS on my parent's system, they could get by fine with little complaints. And it wouldn't cost me a dime and when they wanted to upgrade, there would be no new license.

[linuxrants7xpg]

waldojim, on 01 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Isn't it? At less than 5% for 30 years now, how is it not a flop as well? (apple computers that is - not just the current OS-X iteration)

The only reason it is gaining traction right now is because it is "in" to hate MS. That, and Apple finally managed to get their machines sold in more than just Apple stores.

By the standards Linux is held to, it certainly is. With that in mind, can you think of a single respectable journalist that has published anything claiming such? I can think of at least three for Linux in recent weeks. I can't think of a single one for OSX.

[MikeFreeman0717]

About the security update thing: That's completely false. You say that security updates for Linux are only supported for one year, then you must install the newest version. That's false. Depending on which version of Linux you choose, you might NEVER have to reinstall. If you choose Ubuntu, yeah they have a version that comes out every 6 months (with security support for 18 months), but for enterprise environments, I would stick with their LTS (Long-Term Support) version, which have full support for 3 years and security support for 5 years. Or use a Debian variant, like Linux Mint Debian Edition. Not quite as polished, but it's a rolling distribution, meaning that security updates are constant and without any end dates. And updates are all free of charge.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a pointless discussion anyway. Linux isn't at all about market share and what percentage of people use it. It's there to be used if needed. If it's not needed, no problem, use something else. As the 2nd page of the article so nicely illustrates, there are a number of really good usage scenarios for Linux in business. There are even more for home desktop use (I use it exclusively - haven't needed to use Windows for anything in years). But if there's something you need to do that it won't do, use something else that's better for you.

If you like/need both, Linux works great in a dual-boot environment. And using the Linux-Windows combination in a VM (either one of them as host and guest OS combination) has proven to be extremely useful for some.

For Linux, this isn't a competition (although some want to make it out to be). Linux will always be there as long as there are people who need what it can provide, and that means it is anything but a flop, no matter what the stupid percentages are. It is a screaming success. It's articles like this that make people mistakenly think otherwise. Look beyond the idiotic statistics and understand the Open Source philosophy, and you will see the reality - Linux is far from a "flop".

[MikeFreeman0717]

dailymisleader, on 01 May 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Linux is awesome, until you try doing what millions of people love, and watch a netflix movie.

That's not a Linux problem, that's a Netflix problem. All they need to do is use a different technology than Silverlight, and it will instantly work on Linux. Hulu Plus, YouTube/Google Play Movies, and Amazon Instant Video? All work on Linux, even with DRM. Netflix just needs to switch to Flash or HTML5 (preferably) as a base, and it'll work fine. But Netflix higher-ups are on the payroll of Microsoft, so that's not going to happen. Blame them, not Linux. Then use and promote a different movie service.

[RickDobbelmannqbtt]

MikeFreeman0717, on 01 May 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

dailymisleader, on 01 May 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Linux is awesome, until you try doing what millions of people love, and watch a netflix movie.

That's not a Linux problem, that's a Netflix problem. All they need to do is use a different technology than Silverlight, and it will instantly work on Linux. Hulu Plus, YouTube/Google Play Movies, and Amazon Instant Video? All work on Linux, even with DRM. Netflix just needs to switch to Flash or HTML5 (preferably) as a base, and it'll work fine. But Netflix higher-ups are on the payroll of Microsoft, so that's not going to happen. Blame them, not Linux. Then use and promote a different movie service.

Most people fail to realize microsofts advertising gimmick, which is all they are. Patent suing advertising gimmick.

btw I can play netflix just fine through Virtual box and microXP

[Evildave]

Netflix also works fine through game consoles, various set top boxes, bluray players, network enabled TV sets, etc.

Complaining about Netflix (while ignoring all MANY the other streaming movie services) is pure Microsoft-owned hatred for Linux.

[fumugu]

"Trained" in the Framework that is .NET and so much hate for Windows? Sounds like repressed feelings. Did Microsoft touch you "down there"? You can talk about it. It's ok.

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 30 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Hemo2, on 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes, it is about the apps. There's not a single Linux app that I need or want and all the apps I need or want are Windows based. Linux apps are always referred to as 'alternatives' and never have the full functionality of their Windows couterparts, so it's a no brainer. It would be a complete waste of time for me to bother with Linux.

HAHAHA really?


lol

what an silly comment to make.

Comming from a web developer, software developer, graphic artist, trained in C#, VB.Net, ASP.Net, all using Microsoft visual studio, also SQL Server, Adobe dreamweaver and photoshop and many many more.

I have not had the need, ONCE, to ever use a Microsoft or Adobe program scince switching to Linux full time in early 2010. (ubuntu 10.04)

I have found "alternatives" that are just as good if not superior to Microsoft and Adobe products.

And I didnt pay a freaking DIME for them!!! (although I have donated to several projects)

[MikeFreeman0717]

waldojim, on 30 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

How many laptops ship with Linux? How many others ship with hardware that is compatible? Can you buy a single Linux based PC at Best Buy, Micro Center, or Fry's?

There are several places that will ship Linux-compatible laptops (not none, like you say below). Here's a small sampling:

https://www.system76.com/laptops/
http://www.linuxcert...ux_laptops.html
http://www.thelinuxlaptop.com/

Most hardware out there is very compatible. I've installed Linux Mint on about 6 or 7 completely different machines, with hardware from vastly different companies. Not once has something just not worked. Granted, some needed some tweaking to get it working, and that could be improved (and is getting better with every new release). The only hardware that's generally not compatible is either REALLY new (like released in the last 6 months), or so obscure that no Linux devs have run into one to be able to make a driver for it. If it doesn't work, give it some time and it probably soon will. Or, either buy something 6 months to a year old, or look for compatibility information online before you buy something (it's EVERYWHERE - just gotta look).

I don't know about Micro Center or Fry's (don't have those here), but definitely not at Best Buy. I have seen them in other stores, though, especially locally-owned shops, which are better to buy from anyway (from the standpoint that the money stays in the local economy, and the people there actually know about what they're selling as opposed to Big Box National Chain Store monkeys). But, like I said before, most people will just buy any machine that fits their needs and install Linux themselves.

Quote

Right now the answer to the first and last question is none. The second question is answered best with "I dunno". Because it is darned near impossible to tell (up front) just how compatible a machine will be.

Not quite. Again, it just takes a little Google searching to find the info you need. You can just buy from one of the links I posted earlier, or shop around and gather a list of various hardware that would fit your needs, then Google 'linux [hardware model]' and read about the issues and buy the ones that work best. Or, start with a list of Linux compatible hardware (quick Google search will give that to you) and buy from that. Takes a little work, but it'll save some headaches later.

Quote

My wifes Z575 is about 99%, only issues being power management. That is a big issue btw. A 3 hour battery life cut down to 1 does not make for a happy wife.

Understandably! There were some power management problems on some recent Linux kernels, depending on your hardware. If you install an older kernel, or the very newest kernel (not an incredibly difficult task, but might take some instructing), the problem might right itself. There are also various tweaks that can improve battery life immensely. Here's one program that helps with that: http://www.jupiterapplet.org/

Quote

My w520 is all over the place depending on the distro. Everything from broken network cards (either wifi or wired, or even both), to non-functioning Nvidia Optimus, to battery life from hell, to broken mouse touchpad drivers. My last well supported laptop was a Lenovo X100e. It could manage 4 hours in Linux (6 in Windows btw) and everything worked OOTB. But that is one in 3 that was well supported.

I'm sorry to hear that. It's certainly not the norm, at least in recent years. What have you done to try to solve these issues? Generally, there are fairly easy tweaks available for most problems, but they might not be obvious. That's what Google is for.

I've never seen so many problems with Linux as you're having. I've seen some distros that work better than others on a variety of hardware, though. I've used Linux Mint successfully on Gateway, Compaq/HP, Dell, and Apple computers, with little to no hardware problems. I've run several different brands of wifi cards and dongles. I've mainly only used NVIDIA and ATI graphics cards without problems, which support is really great for, but Intel and other major brands are generally well supported as well. I've used fairly new printers (admittedly not the newest, since I'd rather get a good deal on a slightly older printer on sale) from Canon, HP, Epson, etc. as well as brand new copy machines from Konica-Minolta and Kyocera without problems. I've run into some very minor glitches here and there (because the Linux installer can't guess all the needs of every piece of hardware out there), but all have been fixed with very minor tweaking. Best thing to do is just find a store that sells Linux machines, or Linux-compatible hardware. Then everything should work 100%.

[RickDobbelmannqbtt]

fumugu, on 01 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

"Trained" in the Framework that is .NET and so much hate for Windows? Sounds like repressed feelings. Did Microsoft touch you "down there"? You can talk about it. It's ok.

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 30 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Hemo2, on 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes, it is about the apps. There's not a single Linux app that I need or want and all the apps I need or want are Windows based. Linux apps are always referred to as 'alternatives' and never have the full functionality of their Windows couterparts, so it's a no brainer. It would be a complete waste of time for me to bother with Linux.

HAHAHA really?


lol

what an silly comment to make.

Comming from a web developer, software developer, graphic artist, trained in C#, VB.Net, ASP.Net, all using Microsoft visual studio, also SQL Server, Adobe dreamweaver and photoshop and many many more.

I have not had the need, ONCE, to ever use a Microsoft or Adobe program scince switching to Linux full time in early 2010. (ubuntu 10.04)

I have found "alternatives" that are just as good if not superior to Microsoft and Adobe products.

And I didnt pay a freaking DIME for them!!! (although I have donated to several projects)

Yes trained with the .net framework. And the only reason for training in the .net framwrok is because Microsoft has a corporate partenership with the school I went to.. It was great, all the free (student edition) microsoft products I could want.

Then started my own business and couldnt not afford the cost of the software I would need. So I tried Ubutnu 10.04 when it was in beta. I quickly found Quanta Plus that worked like dreamweaver. Then I found Eclipse for O.O.P, The Gimp was installed by defult. The buttons were not it the same spot but after a month or two I had the gimp down and could do everything I needed to that I could in photoshop, and with the add ons.. There is no comparision.

Linux is everthing and anything you want it to be.

[fumugu]

Been in the business writing Windows platform software for over 15 years. Got a real job and never once paid a dime for development tools. Don't know many if any of my peers that have either. "Free" is not a useful argument; there are free IDE's available for .NET dev, whether it's actual .NET or Mono. Plenty of free graphics tools too. Plenty of open source projects available. Please, keep your inane arguments with the kernel and drivers please. It's much more amusing than your "experience" in school with MSFT products. You don't see me hating on AIX and COBOL now, I wasn't a fan of those in college myself.

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 01 May 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

fumugu, on 01 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

"Trained" in the Framework that is .NET and so much hate for Windows? Sounds like repressed feelings. Did Microsoft touch you "down there"? You can talk about it. It's ok.

RickDobbelmannqbtt, on 30 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Hemo2, on 30 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yes, it is about the apps. There's not a single Linux app that I need or want and all the apps I need or want are Windows based. Linux apps are always referred to as 'alternatives' and never have the full functionality of their Windows couterparts, so it's a no brainer. It would be a complete waste of time for me to bother with Linux.

HAHAHA really?


lol

what an silly comment to make.

Comming from a web developer, software developer, graphic artist, trained in C#, VB.Net, ASP.Net, all using Microsoft visual studio, also SQL Server, Adobe dreamweaver and photoshop and many many more.

I have not had the need, ONCE, to ever use a Microsoft or Adobe program scince switching to Linux full time in early 2010. (ubuntu 10.04)

I have found "alternatives" that are just as good if not superior to Microsoft and Adobe products.

And I didnt pay a freaking DIME for them!!! (although I have donated to several projects)

Yes trained with the .net framework. And the only reason for training in the .net framwrok is because Microsoft has a corporate partenership with the school I went to.. It was great, all the free (student edition) microsoft products I could want.

Then started my own business and couldnt not afford the cost of the software I would need. So I tried Ubutnu 10.04 when it was in beta. I quickly found Quanta Plus that worked like dreamweaver. Then I found Eclipse for O.O.P, The Gimp was installed by defult. The buttons were not it the same spot but after a month or two I had the gimp down and could do everything I needed to that I could in photoshop, and with the add ons.. There is no comparision.

Linux is everthing and anything you want it to be.

[MikeFreeman0717]

MikeFreeman0717, on 01 May 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've used Linux Mint successfully on Gateway, Compaq/HP, Dell, and Apple computers, with little to no hardware problems.

Correction: I used Debian on my Apple hardware. Sorry.

[RickDobbelmannqbtt]

fumugu, on 01 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Been in the business writing Windows platform software for over 15 years. Got a real job and never once paid a dime for development tools. Don't know many if any of my peers that have either. "Free" is not a useful argument; there are free IDE's available for .NET dev, whether it's actual .NET or Mono. Plenty of free graphics tools too. Plenty of open source projects available. Please, keep your inane arguments with the kernel and drivers please. It's much more amusing than your "experience" in school with MSFT products. You don't see me hating on AIX and COBOL now, I wasn't a fan of those in college myself.

Should I be impressed?

So your employer pays for your software?

Why would anyone care if you hated on AIX or COBOL?

Why would anyone care if you hated on anything?

Ahh the NT kernel and their Windows 98 driver model. lol Don't stick that USB hardware in first.

This post has been edited by RickDobbelmannqbtt: 01 May 2012 - 01:18 PM