[LiveBrianD]

As I recall, Windows has had a previous versions feature since Vista. (I've never actually used it though.) If I needed encryption, I'd use TrueCrypt. For backups, I prefer to use SyncBack because it doesn't use a proprietary format to store the files (granted, you don't get previous versions that way, but I don't need that. All the other programs I know of, including the ones in Windows and OS X, use some proprietary format).

The thing is, Home versions of Windows may lack quite a few things, but who actually uses them? Yeah, people use PCs running Win7 Home for games... as well as web surfing, work, programming, etc. You know, just about 99.9% of what's possible on Win7 Pro.

[Evildave]

Win7 Pro: AT ADDED COST.

OS X: Part of the OS.

Backup is certainly an under-utilized function for PC users, to be sure.

[Evildave]

waldojim, on 04 May 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Retail... what? Show me a 'windoze' version of the same Linux models that's $200 cheaper. Though I would certainly admit that Dell/HP won't do you any favors with the pricing for a 'custom' system.

You mean, like Emperor Linux's Rhino

Quote

Our Dell-based Rhino M4600 system

The machine that STARTS at DOUBLE the Dell direct price? Yep, that certainly comes out cheaper doesn't it? Rhino i3 with 2GB ram - $1280. Brand new Dell E6520 - i3, 2GB ram - $699.

Yep, that extra $600 must pay for the return of the Windows license, the Windows servier license needed to mirror the Linux image, RedHat Enterprise Desktop (just because), and then they just give up and give you Ubuntu so you don't feel bad.

Interesting that the first 'Dell Direct' price I find, MATCHING the base level Rhino is more expensive.

http://www.emperorli...fgr/dell/rhino/

http://configure.us....=latitude-e6520

But as I did mention, Dell & HP don't do you any favors. They obviously don't do any favors to their resellers when they have a fire sale.

[LiveBrianD]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Win7 Pro: AT ADDED COST.

OS X: Part of the OS.

Backup is certainly an under-utilized function for PC users, to be sure.

Remember that, in quite a few cases, you're paying a premium for the hardware on the Mac side. (though they seem to be getting better at that - for instance, the Mac Mini and Macbook Air are competitively priced, while things like the Mac Pro definitely aren't)

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

waldojim, on 04 May 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Retail... what? Show me a 'windoze' version of the same Linux models that's $200 cheaper. Though I would certainly admit that Dell/HP won't do you any favors with the pricing for a 'custom' system.

You mean, like Emperor Linux's Rhino

Quote

Our Dell-based Rhino M4600 system

The machine that STARTS at DOUBLE the Dell direct price? Yep, that certainly comes out cheaper doesn't it? Rhino i3 with 2GB ram - $1280. Brand new Dell E6520 - i3, 2GB ram - $699.

Yep, that extra $600 must pay for the return of the Windows license, the Windows servier license needed to mirror the Linux image, RedHat Enterprise Desktop (just because), and then they just give up and give you Ubuntu so you don't feel bad.

Interesting that the first 'Dell Direct' price I find, MATCHING the base level Rhino is more expensive.

http://www.emperorli...fgr/dell/rhino/

http://configure.us....=latitude-e6520

But as I did mention, Dell & HP don't do you any favors. They obviously don't do any favors to their resellers when they have a fire sale.

That is interesting, since I DID link to EXACTLY identical machines.
I could go through your list of resellers and find more for you, but you would deny that evidence as well.

[LiveBrianD]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

But as I did mention, Dell & HP don't do you any favors. They obviously don't do any favors to their resellers when they have a fire sale.

Yep. It seems that the base price is good enough, but the upgrades are what they really gouge you on. Seriously lenovo, $80 for a 2GB module that cost me $25 on newegg? (this was back in April 2011 when I bought my x120e)

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 04 May 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Win7 Pro: AT ADDED COST.

OS X: Part of the OS.

Backup is certainly an under-utilized function for PC users, to be sure.

Remember that, in quite a few cases, you're paying a premium for the hardware on the Mac side. (though they seem to be getting better at that - for instance, the Mac Mini and Macbook Air are competitively priced, while things like the Mac Pro definitely aren't)

Yes they are. The Mac Book Pro for example, is incredibly well priced. The MAC Pro is rocking Xeon chips - go look up the price on one of those. I will give you a hint - the base model CPU alone is $400. Couple that with registered ECC ram, workstation motherboard, and Firewire 800. Yes, you have an expensive machine - no matter who makes it. Unless of course, they drop in the cheapest parts known to man.

[waldojim]

waldojim, on 04 May 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

waldojim, on 04 May 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Retail... what? Show me a 'windoze' version of the same Linux models that's $200 cheaper. Though I would certainly admit that Dell/HP won't do you any favors with the pricing for a 'custom' system.

You mean, like Emperor Linux's Rhino

Quote

Our Dell-based Rhino M4600 system

The machine that STARTS at DOUBLE the Dell direct price? Yep, that certainly comes out cheaper doesn't it? Rhino i3 with 2GB ram - $1280. Brand new Dell E6520 - i3, 2GB ram - $699.

Yep, that extra $600 must pay for the return of the Windows license, the Windows servier license needed to mirror the Linux image, RedHat Enterprise Desktop (just because), and then they just give up and give you Ubuntu so you don't feel bad.

Interesting that the first 'Dell Direct' price I find, MATCHING the base level Rhino is more expensive.

http://www.emperorli...fgr/dell/rhino/

http://configure.us....=latitude-e6520

But as I did mention, Dell & HP don't do you any favors. They obviously don't do any favors to their resellers when they have a fire sale.

That is interesting, since I DID link to EXACTLY identical machines.
I could go through your list of resellers and find more for you, but you would deny that evidence as well.

You know, I will give you one more, just because it is funny. Linuxcertified.com has the Lenovo W520 (which they had to stipulate certain functions/distros being broken). And to get it back down to $1399 (still more than I paid), I would have to give up my 500GB hard drive, my i7 processor, and my 1080P 95%color gamut display, and 2GB of ram. Why should people think this is some sort of deal?

[Evildave]

To be fair, EVERY PC MAKER (Apple as well) screws you on the 'upgrades'. RAM is usually massively overpriced, compared to what you can get separately. Hard disks are always massively overpriced.

If you're going to get that 'cheap' advertised price, you have to buy it 'as is'. Just a few clicks on the configurator will suddenly make any computer a monstrously expensive one.

[Evildave]

waldojim, on 04 May 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

You know, I will give you one more, just because it is funny. Linuxcertified.com has the Lenovo W520 (which they had to stipulate certain functions/distros being broken). And to get it back down to $1399 (still more than I paid), I would have to give up my 500GB hard drive, my i7 processor, and my 1080P 95%color gamut display, and 2GB of ram. Why should people think this is some sort of deal?

http://linuxcertifie...nkPad-W520.html

A quick price search reveals MANY sites who sell Lenovo W520s for more (and less) that you say you paid.
http://www.google.co...s?q=lenovo+W520

Someone claimed nobody sold Linux machines. I show they do. Now you've shown that just like any other PC vendor, not all of them are honest.

Even the Dell example shows how you can go two different pages on Dell's same web site, and get two vastly different prices.

Shop, shop, shop, or be ripped off!

Or buy Apple and get a price that doesn't vary much for a decent computer that doesn't vary much.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

To be fair, EVERY PC MAKER (Apple as well) screws you on the 'upgrades'. RAM is usually massively overpriced, compared to what you can get separately. Hard disks are always massively overpriced.

If you're going to get that 'cheap' advertised price, you have to buy it 'as is'. Just a few clicks on the configurator will suddenly make any computer a monstrously expensive one.

Sad, but true. If you work with an agent, you can occasionally get them to cut a deal - but that is something I wouldn't count on.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

http://linuxcertifie...nkPad-W520.html

A quick price search reveals MANY sites who sell Lenovo W520s for more (and less) that you say you paid.
http://www.google.co...s?q=lenovo+W520

Someone claimed nobody sold Linux machines. I show they do. Now you've shown that just like any other PC vendor, not all of them are honest.

Even the Dell example shows how you can go two different pages on Dell's same web site, and get two vastly different prices.

Shop, shop, shop, or be ripped off!

Or buy Apple and get a price that doesn't vary much for a decent computer that doesn't vary much.

MY claim, was only that you pay a premium for Linux machines. Something you refuted, and I have proven my point on - more than once.

The w520 comes in many varieties - from 1366x768 displays and i5 processors with the Nvidia Quadro 1000, to i7 extreme processors, 1920x1080 displays and Quadro 2000m graphics. The differences in price are just as vast. From right at $1000, clear up to the $3000 mark.

So there is no confusion about my claim on the Lenovo - here is my order:

Payment Terms: Credit Card
CC NO:****-****-****-****
EXP: 03/13
AMT: 1443.67Note, this is the total with tax and shipping. Scroll down for the machine price.
AUTH: 040512

Dear JAMES HOOD,

Thank you for your purchase from Lenovo. Your order has been received and is
being processed. We'll send you another e-mail when your order has shipped.

We have included your complete order information below. You may check your
order status at any time by visiting:
http://www.directlen...6216&oid=2HKJ7D

If you have any questions about your order, or if any order information
is incorrect, please call (919)294-5832 or email pngankam@lenovo.com.
Please include your Customer Number and Order Number in any communications
to help us serve you more quickly.

Thank you for purchasing from Lenovo. We appreciate your business.

Lenovo Sales

http://www.lenovo.com


PRODUCT DESCRIPTION QTY PRICE/EA TOTAL
=================================================================================
SYS.4270CT CONFIGURED SYSTEM 1 $1,333.65 $1,333.65
4270CTO THINKPAD W520 - 1 YR 1 $1,333.65
0A68261 SBB BLUETOOTH 3.0 1 $0.00
0A68269 SBB 2NDGICI7-2620M IHDG 1 $0.00
0A68547 SBB DVD RC8XMXDLLRULTEH 1 $0.00
0A68553 SBB 500GB HDD7200RPM 1 $0.00
0A68558 SBB 720P HD CAM INT MIC 1 $0.00
0A68562 SBB NO SMART CARD READE 1 $0.00
0A68563 SBB NO COLOR SENSOR 1 $0.00
0A68564 SBB LANG PCK US E 1 $0.00
0A68599 SBB PCK MOW EXCEPT CH H 1 $0.00
0A68718 SBB GW7 HP64 US ENGLISH 1 $0.00
0A68764 SBB WLAN MP 1X1 HALF (H 1 $0.00
0A68768 SBB WWAN MP WWAN RD FUL 1 $0.00
0A68771 SBB MECH MPARTS 1 $0.00
0A68776 SBB REAR CLEAR PLATE 1 $0.00
0A68782 SBB GEO LABEL US WLAN B 1 $0.00
0A68809 SBB 15.6FHD LED B-L,11N 1 $0.00
0A68893 SBB NVQ1000M GR 1 $0.00
0A68904 SBB CPNAMLC+ 170W AC AD 1 $0.00
0A68945 SBB CLPLW520 WLAN/WWN/W 1 $0.00
0A68964 SBB 2ND GIL(ICI7 PR 1 $0.00
0A68968 SBB MEMORY DC DCM 1 $0.00
0A69620 SBB I RAID-NOT EN 1 $0.00
0A71353 SBB NVDGRQ1N-AMTY-TPM/Y 1 $0.00
0A71377 SBB SLBIDTP00002BFORROW 1 $0.00
0A71678 SBB MS LABEL (W7ST/EE 2 1 $0.00
44C7950 SBB INT WRLSSWDAREANTWR 1 $0.00
44C8401 SBB ENERGYSTAR 4.0 TIER 1 $0.00
45M3092 VBB GENWIN7HOMEPREM64 1 $0.00
45M4816 SBB 9CELLLI-ION BATTERY 1 $0.00
45M4839 SBB KEYBOARDUS ENGLISH 1 $0.00
75Y0829 VBB 6GB PC3-10600 SODIM 1 $0.00
75Y1724 SBB THINKPADB/G/N 1 $0.00
75Y2143 SBB FCC LABEL 1 $0.00
0A68287 SBB NO MSSDRIVE 1 $0.00
0A68527 VBB NO FINGERPRINT READ 1 $0.00
0A68529 VBB ECS+4IN1CR 1 $0.00
0A68535 SBB 15.6FHD (1900 X 108 1 $0.00
0A68538 SBB NO FINGERPRINT READ 1 $0.00
0A68540 SBB NO MODEM 1 $0.00
0A68544 SBB 2GB DDR3 SDRAM1333M 1 $0.00
0A68545 SBB 4GB DDR3 SDRAM1333M 1 $0.00


-------------------------------------
Subtotal Without Shipping & Handling $1,333.65
Total after Miscellaneous $1,333.65
Shipping via UPS Ground + $0.00
Sales Tax + $110.02
-------------------------------------
Grand Total + $1,443.67
=====================================


Now that there is no confusion about this, I will say once more, that yes my machine was cheaper with Windows. And I can install Linux my damned self.

This post has been edited by waldojim: 04 May 2012 - 11:11 PM

[Evildave]

With an 'agent', you probably could have gotten it 'barebones' style without windows, and saved that money on the license fee.

Though if that came with 'Windows Home', it could be a surprisingly small savings compared to the retail license price.

[waldojim]

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

With an 'agent', you probably could have gotten it 'barebones' style without windows, and saved that money on the license fee.

Though if that came with 'Windows Home', it could be a surprisingly small savings compared to the retail license price.

Not saying I couldn't. I was only pointing out that it was still cheaper than buying a machine that had Linux thrown on there after the fact.

Bright side, I did finally find a distro that LIKES the w520.

[Evildave]

Cheaper than CERTAIN machines, which you cherry picked. Similarly, those same machines were sometimes more expensive from the same source, if you found them on different pages, like the Dell example.

Caveat emptor.

[smax013]

DataProtection, on 02 May 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I will buy a new computer, But I don't know whether should I get a Mac or usual PC. My last one was a Mac but once I lost all of my important data and didn't get them back. And now, I want some suggestions about my new computer.

Since the others have gotten off topic and reverted to a good old "Mac vs. Windows" war (zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...been there, done that)...

Losing data is just as easy on a Windows machine as on a Mac. Drives go bad just as easily on BOTH OS platforms. This is why you need to backup your data. Backing up your data is the ONLY way to actually insure "data protection".

In the end, if you don't backup your data, then there is a rather good chance that you will lose data at some point.

As to which to choose, I think that waldojim offered good advice:

waldojim, on 02 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Is there actually a reason to give up on Mac? If you have no valid reasons to switch platforms, then don't. If for some reason you just want to tinker with Windows, get a mac and install windows via bootcamp. If you just won't want to work with the Apple/Mac platform anymore, then switch and enjoy.

Which to choose is something that only really YOU can decide.

If you liked using a Mac and the only reason you are considering switching is due to your loss of data, then maybe you should stick with a Mac and invest in a backup option (whether that be an external drive that you using with Time Machine or some sort of network drive such as a Time Capsule or some more "generic" NAS...many NAS drives will also work with Time Machine).

If you decided that you did not like working with the Mac OS and remember fondly working with Windows, then maybe it is better for you to switch to Windows. But, again, you will want some sort of backup option.

[smax013]

LiveBrianD, on 03 May 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Also, gee, are the components in a macbook or imac standard? Of course not.

Depends on the components.

RAM & hard drive. Yes...."standard" components. And for a laptop (or a desktop that uses mostly laptop type parts such as most, if not all, all-in-one computers such as an iMac) those are generally the only parts that a typical consumer will worry about replacing except for maybe a battery (which, yes, is NOT "user replaceable" on a Mac laptop).

If you are talking about motherboard, optical drive, WiFi card, etc, then they are RARELY "standard" for ANY laptop, whether they are Apple's, Dell's, Lenovo's, etc.

[smax013]

LiveBrianD, on 04 May 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

How exactly does it not work well? I've been using Windows for years and still haven't found an OS that beats it. OS X isn't great in some aspects (for instance, I find app switching to be a bit awkward there compared to windows or linux, and you have limited upgrade options on most of the hardware), and linux can be a PITA at times when installing drivers and stuff, and Windows... just... works (ok, not 100% of the time, but more so than the alternatives). Even Vista is good in comparison to the alternatives in some ways. If there was an alternative that I found to work particularly well (and worked on all x86 hardware, not just ones with a specific TPM chip), I would've switched by now.

And where does he say "it does not work well"? He said HE did not like Windows...i.e. HIS OPINION.

Evildave, on 04 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Actually, I do routinely boot up windoze VMs of various versions. It is my opinion that windoze sucks. Live with it.

Just as you have your opinion about how Windows is better than the Mac OS and Linux, he has his opinion that "windoze sucks".

FWIW, you both are kind of different sides of the same coin...you both tend to "push" your opinion on others and discount that they might have a different opinion. And frankly, in my own opinion (which is not worth much), you are BOTH not being that helpful to the OP.

[Evildave]

As for not being helpful, that's up to the DataProtection, not you.

He's someone who wants information and opinions, and all sides are giving supplying both.

[DataProtection]

Evildave, on 06 May 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

As for not being helpful, that's up to the DataProtection, not you.

He's someone who wants information and opinions, and all sides are giving supplying both.

Thank you.