[Hapless]

Can I use a portable hard drive to backup a system image of my desktop CPU? I was about to buy a Seagate 1TB Backup Plus when I saw a complaint on-line that the Seagate will not do it. I have asked at 3 different stores and get vague answers as to why and suggestions that Western Digital portables MIGHT do it. Not willing to risk $100+ to find out what should be on the box, but I am weary of swapping out DVD-RWs (now up to 12 discs).

[LiveBrianD]

The best option, in my opinion, is simply to use Easeus Todo Backup and ANY external hard drive (it doesn't matter if it includes software or not - actually, I find they're better without that) for backups.

[snorg]

Hapless, on 29 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Can I use a portable hard drive to backup a system image of my desktop CPU? I was about to buy a Seagate 1TB Backup Plus when I saw a complaint on-line that the Seagate will not do it. I have asked at 3 different stores and get vague answers as to why and suggestions that Western Digital portables MIGHT do it. Not willing to risk $100+ to find out what should be on the box, but I am weary of swapping out DVD-RWs (now up to 12 discs).

If you buy any seagate hard drive you can download seagate disk wizard and make a complete image of any hard drive you want.

If your hard drive screws up you just restore the image and youre back to square one, no proplemo!

And its free.

This post has been edited by snorg: 30 August 2012 - 02:04 AM

[smax013]

Hapless, on 29 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Can I use a portable hard drive to backup a system image of my desktop CPU? I was about to buy a Seagate 1TB Backup Plus when I saw a complaint on-line that the Seagate will not do it. I have asked at 3 different stores and get vague answers as to why and suggestions that Western Digital portables MIGHT do it. Not willing to risk $100+ to find out what should be on the box, but I am weary of swapping out DVD-RWs (now up to 12 discs).

The short answer is that any external hard drive should allow you to make an image of your computer...with the right software. There are plenty of third party backup/imaging programs out there that should do the job...LiveBrianD offered one. Depending on what version of Windows you are using, you might have the function built into Windows.

Now, if you are asking if the Seagate drive COMES with software that will allow you image your computer, then that I am not sure of. It definitely comes with some software that will do backups:

http://reviews.cnet....35331026-2.html

But, I am not sure if it will do a "true" image of your current setup.

[brainout]

Both the Seagate and WD offer their own backup utilities, but they aren't disk imaging. For disk imaging, you have to buy software, and can use it on any external drive. Further, disk imaging comes in two flavors: backup, and 'clone'. The latter enables you to boot from the external drive and operate it as if that were your PC, because the 'clone' is a LIVE COPY of exactly what's on your hard drive. However, you can't use the 'clone' to restore your actual computer.

So, you do both: backup, and 'clone'. The latter gets you through the day until at night, you can restore your computer from the backup.

I tried Acronis, EASEUS, Rebit, and many other types of programs until I found Macrium Reflect 5 Pro. I like Macrium the best, because A) it's simplest and most comprehensive, and B) it is automated. It only costs $60 per computer, too. Daily backup takes seven minutes; weekly, about an hour. The whole thing is automated in Windows' Scheduled Tasks (Macrium puts the schedule there), so it's easy to stop or change, on the fly. The hour backup covers about 70GB.

Macrium's program includes disk imaging (for backup or live clone), as well as the regular idea of backing up files, and can be completely automated, except for the cloning. You have to manually select a drive to clone. The entire drive is used for this, so the trick is to use a drive which is at least larger than the used files on your root drive. For example, on one of my machines, the drive is 80GB, but I'm only using 40GB, so I 'clone' it to a 60 GB drive. On my main machine, I have a 250 GB drive, and clone to a 250 GB. What distinguishes Macrium, is that it can clone based solely on space used. Very handy. And, if I wanted to, I could instead clone the entire drive physically, sector-by-sector (the normal cloning method used by EASEUS and other programs).

The other big point about Macrium, is that it recognizes and images Linux partitions. So if you used a dual boot of Windows and Linux, then it can totally image the drive, without you having to use separate software or steps.

Since I got Macrium in May, I've had another computer meltdown on my oldest XP Pro machine, and the 'clone' worked to get me moving quickly; I just unplugged the clone, moved it to another XP Pro machine, and used it. But the backups would have been needed, had I needed to restore the older machine.

Another backup program I like is no longer sold, except used in Amazon, named Retrospect 6.5. That one came with my older WD external drives (not Passport or Elements, but a far older drive which is self powered). It allows full DUPLICATE (which means a live copy, nothing to restore). If I remember correctly, the prices for that old Retrospect program are less than $50.

I use the Retrospect when I want to do file backups rather than Macrium, because I'm used to doing it that way, and already configured its automation, years ago. Can't tell you if it's better or worse than Macrium, but sometimes it is faster.

Finally, people say that restoring your drive takes hours. So bear that in mind. Here, I'm not sure any software makes that process, easier.

This post has been edited by brainout: 18 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

[smax013]

brainout, on 18 September 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Both the Seagate and WD offer their own backup utilities, but they aren't disk imaging. For disk imaging, you have to buy software, and can use it on any external drive. Further, disk imaging comes in two flavors: backup, and 'clone'. The latter enables you to boot from the external drive and operate it as if that were your PC, because the 'clone' is a LIVE COPY of exactly what's on your hard drive. However, you can't use the 'clone' to restore your actual computer.

Not true, you can certainly use a clone to restore to your computer. You do the exact same process that you used to make the clone in the first place, except you use the clone drive as the "source" drive this time. A good clone/imaging program will give you some method to create a bootable optical disc or come with such an optical disc (TrueImage does both...I assume others will as well). So, you can just boot off the optical disc that runs the cloning program and then clone from the clone drive back to a new drive. In addition, many clone/image programs will clone from the program when it is installed, so in theory you should be able to boot using the clone drive and then run the cloning software to clone it back to a drive in the computer.

The biggest reason NOT to use cloning as your only backup method is that most clone programs don't do "incremental" updates of a clone to my knowledge (the cloning program on my Macs does this, but TrueImage on my Windows computer does not). Thus, if you want to update your clone, you have to do the cloning from scratch, which takes longer.

In addition, many "backup" programs (which I consider different from imaging...imaging is basically the same as a clone but to a file on a drive rather than to the drive itself) can also keep multiple versions of files. Thus, if you do a "new" backup that happens to backup a corrupted file, you can still get an older version of the file that may not be corrupted.

Quote

So, you do both: backup, and 'clone'. The latter gets you through the day until at night, you can restore your computer from the backup.

I tried Acronis, EASEUS, Rebit, and many other types of programs until I found Macrium Reflect 5 Pro. I like Macrium the best, because A) it's simplest and most comprehensive, and it is automated. It only costs $60 per computer, too. Daily backup takes seven minutes; weekly, about an hour. The whole thing is automated in Windows' Scheduled Tasks (Macrium puts the schedule there), so it's easy to stop or change, on the fly. The hour backup covers about 70GB.

Macrium's program includes disk imaging (for backup or live clone), as well as the regular idea of backing up files, and can be completely automated, except for the cloning. You have to manually select a drive to clone. The entire drive is used for this, so the trick is to use a drive which is at least larger than the used files on your root drive. For example, on one of my machines, the drive is 80GB, but I'm only using 40GB, so I 'clone' it to a 60 GB drive. On my main machine, I have a 250 GB drive, and clone to a 250 GB. What distinguishes Macrium, is that it can clone based solely on space used. Very handy. And, if I wanted to, I could instead clone the entire drive physically, sector-by-sector (the normal cloning method used by EASEUS and other programs).

FYI, TrueImage will also clone to different size drives. So, you can use it to go to a smaller or larger drive. The key is that you cannot clone to a smaller drive if you amount of data on the current drive is more than the overall size of the new smaller drive.

Quote

The other big point about Macrium, is that it recognizes and images Linux partitions. So if you used a dual boot of Windows and Linux, then it can totally image the drive, without you having to use separate software or steps.

Since I got Macrium in May, I've had another computer meltdown on my oldest XP Pro machine, and the 'clone' worked to get me moving quickly; I just unplugged the clone, moved it to another XP Pro machine, and used it. But the backups would have been needed, had I needed to restore the older machine.

Another backup program I like is no longer sold, except used in Amazon, named Retrospect 6.5. That one came with my older WD external drives (not Passport or Elements, but a far older drive which is self powered). It allows full DUPLICATE (which means a live copy, nothing to restore). If I remember correctly, the prices for that old Retrospect program are less than $50.

I use the Retrospect when I want to do file backups rather than Macrium, because I'm used to doing it that way, and already configured its automation, years ago. Can't tell you if it's better or worse than Macrium, but sometimes it is faster.

Finally, people say that restoring your drive takes hours. So bear that in mind. Here, I'm not sure any software makes that process, easier.

Retrospect does still exist. They just don't sell it through "retail" stores any more. It is more aimed at business use, mainly small to medium size business use. It is a rather powerful backup program. You can backup multiple computers over the network with it rather than having to go to each computer to do backups to a hard drive (or other media) for each computer. And yes, it can do "native file" backups...i.e. you can attach a drive with a Retrospect backup on it and not have to use the Retrospect program to get to your backed up files.

You can buy direct from them. I will note that it is more than $100 for a new license, but this generally includes the ability to backup more than one computer (I believe the Windows version allows you to backup the "host" computer as well as two "client" computers running Windows, Mac OS, Linux or Solaris with the base program while I believe for the Mac version you back 5 "client" computers with the base version...and you can buy more client licenses).

http://www.retrospect.com

[brainout]

smax013, on 18 September 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Not true, you can certainly use a clone to restore to your computer. You do the exact same process that you used to make the clone in the first place, except you use the clone drive as the "source" drive this time. A good clone/imaging program will give you some method to create a bootable optical disc or come with such an optical disc (TrueImage does both...I assume others will as well). So, you can just boot off the optical disc that runs the cloning program and then clone from the clone drive back to a new drive. In addition, many clone/image programs will clone from the program when it is installed, so in theory you should be able to boot using the clone drive and then run the cloning software to clone it back to a drive in the computer.

The biggest reason NOT to use cloning as your only backup method is that most clone programs don't do "incremental" updates of a clone to my knowledge (the cloning program on my Macs does this, but TrueImage on my Windows computer does not). Thus, if you want to update your clone, you have to do the cloning from scratch, which takes longer.

In addition, many "backup" programs (which I consider different from imaging...imaging is basically the same as a clone but to a file on a drive rather than to the drive itself) can also keep multiple versions of files. Thus, if you do a "new" backup that happens to backup a corrupted file, you can still get an older version of the file that may not be corrupted.

FYI, TrueImage will also clone to different size drives. So, you can use it to go to a smaller or larger drive. The key is that you cannot clone to a smaller drive if you amount of data on the current drive is more than the overall size of the new smaller drive.

Retrospect does still exist. They just don't sell it through "retail" stores any more. It is more aimed at business use, mainly small to medium size business use. It is a rather powerful backup program. You can backup multiple computers over the network with it rather than having to go to each computer to do backups to a hard drive (or other media) for each computer. And yes, it can do "native file" backups...i.e. you can attach a drive with a Retrospect backup on it and not have to use the Retrospect program to get to your backed up files.

You can buy direct from them. I will note that it is more than $100 for a new license, but this generally includes the ability to backup more than one computer (I believe the Windows version allows you to backup the "host" computer as well as two "client" computers running Windows, Mac OS, Linux or Solaris with the base program while I believe for the Mac version you back 5 "client" computers with the base version...and you can buy more client licenses).

http://www.retrospect.com

Thank you for this clarifying information! I thought I could clone to restore as you stated above, but that option wasn't on the menu when my meltdown happened. I installed the program on a pen drive, so could try running it and see if I can do as you state. Sounds probable.

Yes, Macrium does have programs for making not only bootable disks (CD or USB), but also creates a complete Recovery environment (if you choose it), so you don't need to use a bootable disk.

Macrium does do incremental disk imaging. I do it every day. Once a week I image the drive as a whole.

As to beloved Retrospect, last I checked, I couldn't buy an individual license, but only a network license. That matters, because I won't network my computers. Will use the link you posted, and check again. Thank you!

This post has been edited by brainout: 18 September 2012 - 05:21 PM

[smax013]

brainout, on 18 September 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Thank you for this clarifying information! I thought I could clone to restore as you stated above, but that option wasn't on the menu when my meltdown happened. I installed the program on a pen drive, so could try running it and see if I can do as you state. Sounds probable.

Yes, Macrium does have programs for making not only bootable disks (CD or USB), but also creates a complete Recovery environment (if you choose it), so you don't need to use a bootable disk.

Not probable...definite. I have done it with True Image. Just booted off the True Image optical disc and then cloned from the "clone drive" back to the drive in the computer itself. That same thing should work with any cloning program as long as you can boot into the program some how. As long as you can run the cloning program, it will not care what disk you are cloning from or to...to the cloning program, a disk is a disk is a disk. I will note that some older cloning programs could only clone to/from internal hard drives (this was the case years ago with Norton Ghost, which is why I switched to True Image).

Quote

Macrium does do incremental disk imaging. I do it every day. Once a week I image the drive as a whole.

Imaging is different than cloning. So will Macrium incrementally CLONE a drive? If so, I might have to look into using it instead of True Image (it is possible that newer versions of True Image have added this ability...I have not looked recently...still using True Image 2009 right now). I certainly know that it is theoretically possible...as I said, the cloning program that I use on my Macs does it.

Quote

As to beloved Retrospect, last I checked, I couldn't buy an individual license, but only a network license. That matters, because I won't network my computers. Will use the link you posted, and check again. Thank you! [/color][/font]

That would be Retrospect Professional 7.7 for Windows. It is a "stand alone" license. It does also come with two client licenses so that you can backup two additional computers over the network, but no one says you HAVE to use them. Of course, you will pay $119 (not including support) for Retrospect Professional 7.7, so you are kind of wasting some money so to speak if you don't use those client licenses. If you have a old version of Retrospect, the upgrade cost will be less.

[brainout]

smax013, on 18 September 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Not probable...definite. I have done it with True Image. Just booted off the True Image optical disc and then cloned from the "clone drive" back to the drive in the computer itself. That same thing should work with any cloning program as long as you can boot into the program some how. As long as you can run the cloning program, it will not care what disk you are cloning from or to...to the cloning program, a disk is a disk is a disk. I will note that some older cloning programs could only clone to/from internal hard drives (this was the case years ago with Norton Ghost, which is why I switched to True Image).

Quote

Imaging is different than cloning. So will Macrium incrementally CLONE a drive? If so, I might have to look into using it instead of True Image (it is possible that newer versions of True Image have added this ability...I have not looked recently...still using True Image 2009 right now). I certainly know that it is theoretically possible...as I said, the cloning program that I use on my Macs does it.

I don't think it incrementally clones, since the whole purpose of cloning is to have a WHOLE drive you just plug in and run. Incremental cloning makes no sense. Incremental imaging, not cloning. Suggest you ask the people at Macrium, here. That link also allows free download, but you can't use all the features in the free version. Click on Support, then Forum, to register and then post in the forum. (I'm not sure if you have to be a paid customer in order to post. If so, then you can just email them with your questions.)

Quote

That would be Retrospect Professional 7.7 for Windows. It is a "stand alone" license. It does also come with two client licenses so that you can backup two additional computers over the network, but no one says you HAVE to use them. Of course, you will pay $119 (not including support) for Retrospect Professional 7.7, so you are kind of wasting some money so to speak if you don't use those client licenses. If you have a old version of Retrospect, the upgrade cost will be less.

I don't mind buying for more than one computer, I have four XP machines, and two or three Win98's. And I wouldn't upgrade, but buy separately. Yet from your description it sounds like I have to use a network to run it. I don't want to network my machines, too much hassle. (I'm the only user.) Again, will check with Retrospect and see about that. Thank you for the information!

This post has been edited by brainout: 18 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

[smax013]

brainout, on 18 September 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

I don't think it incrementally clones, since the whole purpose of cloning is to have a WHOLE drive you just plug in and run. Incremental cloning makes no sense. Incremental imaging, not cloning. Suggest you ask the people at Macrium, here. That link also allows free download, but you can't use all the features in the free version. Click on Support, then Forum, to register and then post in the forum. (I'm not sure if you have to be a paid customer in order to post. If so, then you can just email them with your questions.)

Incremental cloning makes perfect sense and it does exist. As I said, the cloning program that I use on my Macs (SuperDuper!) does a "Smart Update" cloning process. This is essentially an "incremental" update to the clone.

Now, I am not aware of any Windows cloning program that will do an incremental update to a clone. Thus, why I originally said that it was a downside of ONLY cloning on a Windows computer as a backup method.

Quote

I don't mind buying for more than one computer, I have four XP machines, and two or three Win98's. And I wouldn't upgrade, but buy separately. Yet from your description it sounds like I have to use a network to run it. I don't want to network my machines, too much hassle. (I'm the only user.) Again, will check with Retrospect and see about that. Thank you for the information!

Retrospect Professional does not need a network to work. But without a network, you will only be able to back up ONE computer with one license. Retrospect Professional you get one license to install Retrospect Professional on ONE computer. That one installation can backup that one computer locally to a hard drive, a tape drive, etc. You also get TWO "client" licenses with Retrospect Professional. A "client" license allows you to install the Retrospect client software on a machine that then allows Retrospect Profession that is installed on another machine to then backup that computer over a network. Thus, when you buy Retrospect Professional, you can install it on one computer to back up that computer and then install the client software on two additional computers and backup those two computers over the network by way of the main Retrospect Professional program you installed on the first computer.

Now, in your case, if you refuse to network your computers, then buying Retrospect Professional means you will pay $119 to backup ONE computer since the two client licenses require those two computers (and the computer with Retrospect Professional actually on it) to be on a network.

And I don't know what you mean about networking being too much hassle. Unless you are talking about the hassle of "security" software (and even if not networked, they likely should have anti-malware software on them), networks are not much of a hassle.

[brainout]

smax013, on 18 September 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

brainout, on 18 September 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

I don't think it incrementally clones, since the whole purpose of cloning is to have a WHOLE drive you just plug in and run. Incremental cloning makes no sense. Incremental imaging, not cloning. Suggest you ask the people at Macrium, here. That link also allows free download, but you can't use all the features in the free version. Click on Support, then Forum, to register and then post in the forum. (I'm not sure if you have to be a paid customer in order to post. If so, then you can just email them with your questions.)

Incremental cloning makes perfect sense and it does exist. As I said, the cloning program that I use on my Macs (SuperDuper!) does a "Smart Update" cloning process. This is essentially an "incremental" update to the clone.

Now, I am not aware of any Windows cloning program that will do an incremental update to a clone. Thus, why I originally said that it was a downside of ONLY cloning on a Windows computer as a backup method.

Quote

I don't mind buying for more than one computer, I have four XP machines, and two or three Win98's. And I wouldn't upgrade, but buy separately. Yet from your description it sounds like I have to use a network to run it. I don't want to network my machines, too much hassle. (I'm the only user.) Again, will check with Retrospect and see about that. Thank you for the information!

Retrospect Professional does not need a network to work. But without a network, you will only be able to back up ONE computer with one license. Retrospect Professional you get one license to install Retrospect Professional on ONE computer. That one installation can backup that one computer locally to a hard drive, a tape drive, etc. You also get TWO "client" licenses with Retrospect Professional. A "client" license allows you to install the Retrospect client software on a machine that then allows Retrospect Profession that is installed on another machine to then backup that computer over a network. Thus, when you buy Retrospect Professional, you can install it on one computer to back up that computer and then install the client software on two additional computers and backup those two computers over the network by way of the main Retrospect Professional program you installed on the first computer.

Now, in your case, if you refuse to network your computers, then buying Retrospect Professional means you will pay $119 to backup ONE computer since the two client licenses require those two computers (and the computer with Retrospect Professional actually on it) to be on a network.

And I don't know what you mean about networking being too much hassle. Unless you are talking about the hassle of "security" software (and even if not networked, they likely should have anti-malware software on them), networks are not much of a hassle.

Re your point on incremental cloning, it makes no sense to me. If it makes sense to you, that's wonderful. The point of a clone is to be able to get back in business five minutes after a crash, and an incremental clone wouldn't be fast. I had such a crash the week of September 5, in the middle of an audit and a client quotation for tax deductions. If I didn't have a full clone immediately available, I couldn't have met my 3pm deadline.

So again, your issues about incremental cloning, I'd beg you put before Macrium or whatever vendor you prefer.

As for Retrospect being for one computer, that's fine. The issue isn't price, for me. As for creating a network when I'm the ONLY user of 19 computers, it's too much hassle. Faster to just copy to a pen drive and walk over to the other machine, or from a floppy or Imation or Zip and walk over to my later Windows machines or laptops. It's a preference: walking is quicker than maintaining a network.

Thank you for your comments and your time!

[smax013]

brainout, on 19 September 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Re your point on incremental cloning, it makes no sense to me. If it makes sense to you, that's wonderful. The point of a clone is to be able to get back in business five minutes after a crash, and an incremental clone wouldn't be fast. I had such a crash the week of September 5, in the middle of an audit and a client quotation for tax deductions. If I didn't have a full clone immediately available, I couldn't have met my 3pm deadline.

So again, your issues about incremental cloning, I'd beg you put before Macrium or whatever vendor you prefer.

The "incremental" means that it just updates the clone for any changes from the last time the clone was done. The end result is exactly the same as if I done a full "new" clone of the drive. The difference is that I don't have to wait to completely re-clone the entire drive...I just have to wait for the cloning software to update the "old" clone version to be a clone of the drive as it is now. So, rather than hours, it can be like 15 minutes or less if there is nto a lot that has changed.

And when I pop that clone drive in the computer is the same as the original drive...it was just "updated" incrementally.

Quote

As for Retrospect being for one computer, that's fine. The issue isn't price, for me. As for creating a network when I'm the ONLY user of 19 computers, it's too much hassle. Faster to just copy to a pen drive and walk over to the other machine, or from a floppy or Imation or Zip and walk over to my later Windows machines or laptops. It's a preference: walking is quicker than maintaining a network.

Thank you for your comments and your time!

I understand. We all have our own way of doing things.

In my case, I use a Network Attached Storage and keep all my files on the NAS. Thus, there is no copying involved. A heck of a lot easier than copying from one computer to another whether by USB thumb drive or by network. And sure beats trying to get peer-to-peer networking to work in Windows, which can be a hassle at times.

[brainout]

smax013, on 19 September 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

The "incremental" means that it just updates the clone for any changes from the last time the clone was done. The end result is exactly the same as if I done a full "new" clone of the drive. The difference is that I don't have to wait to completely re-clone the entire drive...I just have to wait for the cloning software to update the "old" clone version to be a clone of the drive as it is now. So, rather than hours, it can be like 15 minutes or less if there is nto a lot that has changed.

And when I pop that clone drive in the computer is the same as the original drive...it was just "updated" incrementally.
...

In my case, I use a Network Attached Storage and keep all my files on the NAS. Thus, there is no copying involved. A heck of a lot easier than copying from one computer to another whether by USB thumb drive or by network. And sure beats trying to get peer-to-peer networking to work in Windows, which can be a hassle at times.

Okay, that solves the difference. I would have to use peer-to-peer, since I have so many older machines. And frankly, I need the walking exercise of going from one end of my living room into the other two rooms where the machines all are. Sitting at a computer all day, even without eating, makes one gain weight.

[ElfBane]

Sneaker nets still live!