[TechnoBill]

Today I reinstalled Windows 7 on my PC.

I bought Windows 8 first thing Friday morning for the advertised upgrade price of $39.99 + tax and created an install DVD and let it do its thing. I did an inplace upgrade and luckily the only thing I had to uninstall was Microsoft Security Essentials.

The upgrade was without incident so I have no complaints to mention regarding it.

My issues are from trying to navigate the interface.

Being constantly switched to the Start menu and its various integrated apps for basic functions like email, PDF viewing, etc is annoying. Trying to close open programs not on the desktop requires more effort than it should. There should be a quit/close function in each app. Having to slide my mouse into the corner then carefully slide it down the screen to bring up the app switcher bar is not very convenient. It takes to long and on my 24" 1920x1200 screen it requires unnecessary mouse action in my opinion.

Trying to restart the computer requires more steps than is even remotely necessary as well.

The Metro version of IE is difficult to navigate as well. You need to use keyboard shortcuts for most things and that requires learning a lot of new ones. A lot of new ones.

I know that I could just stay in the desktop for most of my apps. But if I want to use the built in photo viewer, PDF reader, email app, address book, and various other tools, I must allow it to flip me into the Metro app which requires me to flip back to desktop mode to continue my work.

The OS is great - for a tablet. I can understand how each motion and tool is completely geared for touch. I use a keyboard and mouse though. It isn't conducive to keyboard and mouse AT ALL in my opinion.

If you have the desire to learn a large list of new keyboard shortcuts you could probably get around most of the navigational issues. I don't want to.

So I switched back to Windows 7. Microsoft got my $40 and I still have the option of using Windows 8 in the future if they improve the interface for desktop users in the future. Otherwise, I will be a hold out in 7 like so many others still are in XP. Maybe Windows 9 will be the OS we want just like 7 was to Vista. Until then ... Windows 7 is my OS of choice.

[waldojim]

I use few, if any, keyboard shortcuts. To be honest, I don't think you gave it enough time to get adjusted. Once you adjust a bit to Windows 8, you will find that everything is done for a reason, and that it really does work quite well.

The interface is not about to change. It didn't change through the last several months of nay-sayers, and I doubt it will change any time soon. For Windows 9, it will get updated again - but remain essentially the same. You might want to actually take time to understand the OS, rather than a day finding flaws.

[LiveBrianD]

I don't like Windows 8's UI, but I will say that I haven't found keyboard shortcuts any more useful than before. (Alt+Tab is definitely helpful though, since you get kicked between the 2 UIs with a lot of the default programs.)

The reason the interface didn't change during the betas is because Microsoft is so hellbent on shoving a tablet UI in everyone's face (perhaps the 30% cut from store sales has something doing?) that they've lost track of common sense (like at least letting people disable it, thus ensuring far more sales, and not hiding things for no reason whatsoever). Time will tell if that approach actually works - I'm skeptical that it will.

[TechnoBill]

waldojim, on 28 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I use few, if any, keyboard shortcuts. To be honest, I don't think you gave it enough time to get adjusted. Once you adjust a bit to Windows 8, you will find that everything is done for a reason, and that it really does work quite well.

[snip]

You might want to actually take time to understand the OS, rather than a day finding flaws.

I understand your point about not thinking that I gave it enough time to get adjusted but I disagree.

From my point-of-view I don't see the need to "adjust a bit to Windows 8" currently. It is a tablet interface thrust upon a desktop user. It doesn't work well for keyboard and mouse users in my opinion. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I am saying that it doesn't work well.

Rather than adjust to Windows 8 I am going to just continue to use what has a good keyboard/mouse interface, is still supported by Microsoft for some time to come, and has a large enough user base that it will not be abandoned by manufacturers or programmers.

Windows 7 is better than Windows 8 on PCs. It just is. Sure, the underlying Windows 8 OS might have numerous improvements that make it superior from hard drive management all the way down to its kernel but it has an interface that is more than nondesirable by me. I don't want to relearn how to use a computer. I'm not saying that from an old fogey's point of view either. I am neither old nor a fogey. If it would make my computer usage "better" (and yes I know that is an individualized claim) or "faster" I would be willing to relearn. But unfortunately, for me, it doesn't make anything easier or more streamlined. It simply puts a new interface on top of the old one and strips away any of the benefits of having a powerful machine. (i.e. one app at a time via the new Metro Start screen.) My PC can multitask perfectly well. Why do I need to have that ease of use stripped away by the interface's default design? A design that is not intended to be altered unless by 3rd party work-arounds.

All in all I think Windows 8 has improved underpinnings but is severely hampered by its required Metro interface layered over the top of the desktop interface. I will not switch until I absolutely must or they create the option to disable the Metro interface and use the OS with multiple programs running on the same screen in WINDOWS and not full screen "apps".

This post has been edited by TechnoBill: 29 October 2012 - 07:08 AM

[compnovo]

TechnoBill, on 28 October 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Being constantly switched to the Start menu and its various integrated apps for basic functions like email, PDF viewing, etc is annoying. Trying to close open programs not on the desktop requires more effort than it should. There should be a quit/close function in each app. Having to slide my mouse into the corner then carefully slide it down the screen to bring up the app switcher bar is not very convenient. It takes to long and on my 24" 1920x1200 screen it requires unnecessary mouse action in my opinion.

It does take a while to figure out some of the tricks but once you do it's easy to navigate. For instance, closing apps simply requires grabbing the top of the screen and dragging it down to the bottom (In desktop mode programs close in the traditional way).
I myself don't care much for the pdf app on my desktop PC so I'm still using Adobe Reader, which launches in desktop mode just like it always did. The pdf app lends itself more to my tablet.
I spend 95% or more of my time in desktop mode on my PC since I only use the modern UI as a start screen.

[coastie65]

In my opinion that thing should have been in two stages. Windows 8 for PC's and Metro for the portable devices & touch screens and not rolled into one. That is the reason I will not even consider that mess. They tried to cover too many bases with one program.

[waldojim]

LiveBrianD, on 28 October 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I don't like Windows 8's UI, but I will say that I haven't found keyboard shortcuts any more useful than before. (Alt+Tab is definitely helpful though, since you get kicked between the 2 UIs with a lot of the default programs.)

The reason the interface didn't change during the betas is because Microsoft is so hellbent on shoving a tablet UI in everyone's face (perhaps the 30% cut from store sales has something doing?) that they've lost track of common sense (like at least letting people disable it, thus ensuring far more sales, and not hiding things for no reason whatsoever). Time will tell if that approach actually works - I'm skeptical that it will.

Just remember, that exact same garbage you are spewing now, was spewed forth when Windows 95 was released.

[waldojim]

TechnoBill, on 29 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I understand your point about not thinking that I gave it enough time to get adjusted but I disagree.

From my point-of-view I don't see the need to "adjust a bit to Windows 8" currently. It is a tablet interface thrust upon a desktop user. It doesn't work well for keyboard and mouse users in my opinion. I'm not saying it doesn't work. I am saying that it doesn't work well.

Rather than adjust to Windows 8 I am going to just continue to use what has a good keyboard/mouse interface, is still supported by Microsoft for some time to come, and has a large enough user base that it will not be abandoned by manufacturers or programmers.

Windows 7 is better than Windows 8 on PCs. It just is. Sure, the underlying Windows 8 OS might have numerous improvements that make it superior from hard drive management all the way down to its kernel but it has an interface that is more than nondesirable by me. I don't want to relearn how to use a computer. I'm not saying that from an old fogey's point of view either. I am neither old nor a fogey. If it would make my computer usage "better" (and yes I know that is an individualized claim) or "faster" I would be willing to relearn. But unfortunately, for me, it doesn't make anything easier or more streamlined. It simply puts a new interface on top of the old one and strips away any of the benefits of having a powerful machine. (i.e. one app at a time via the new Metro Start screen.) My PC can multitask perfectly well. Why do I need to have that ease of use stripped away by the interface's default design? A design that is not intended to be altered unless by 3rd party work-arounds.

All in all I think Windows 8 has improved underpinnings but is severely hampered by its required Metro interface layered over the top of the desktop interface. I will not switch until I absolutely must or they create the option to disable the Metro interface and use the OS with multiple programs running on the same screen in WINDOWS and not full screen "apps".

Part of why people give up too quickly, is that they take too much time focusing on Metro as a desktop interface. Don't. You lost a hierarchical start menu, and gained a flat, easily organized one. Your new start menu allows for a few tasks to be done without leaving it - like email, or music. But generally, on the desktop, it is best to keep moving with the applications you know and love.

Windows 8 is a down right superior OS. But you won't actually understand how unless it is given a proper chance. I am sorry, but installing it for a day or two - is NOT taking any time with it.

[TechnoBill]

waldojim, on 29 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Just remember, that exact same garbage you are spewing now, was spewed forth when Windows 95 was released.

Comparing Windows 95 to Windows 8 is not directly a fair comparison.

It can be argued that Windows 95 was an interface improvement to one that was already based on the mouse and keyboard. That speaks nothing of the guts of the OS. I am referring to the GUI alone.

Windows 8 is taking a fork in the GUI development journey and traveling down a touch based interface road. As a result, mouse and keyboard users are left to interact with the computer in a manner that is not optimal.

[TechnoBill]

waldojim, on 29 October 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Part of why people give up too quickly, is that they take too much time focusing on Metro as a desktop interface. Don't. You lost a hierarchical start menu, and gained a flat, easily organized one. Your new start menu allows for a few tasks to be done without leaving it - like email, or music. But generally, on the desktop, it is best to keep moving with the applications you know and love.

Windows 8 is a down right superior OS. But you won't actually understand how unless it is given a proper chance. I am sorry, but installing it for a day or two - is NOT taking any time with it.

I didn't say that Windows 8 was not a better operating system. I said that its GUI, specifically Metro, is highly annoying and very limiting to how certain day to day tasks are completed. Give me the option to not have to boot into its Start screen and not have to run basic tools such as Mail and Reader without going full screen I would be happy to continue using it. Take away the Start button and associated menu and give me something different. I'll try it. I'm not opposed to change but the change must be done with the user and the method of interaction they most likely have considered. Touch is wonderful when you have it but it isn't the mainstream method of computing on a PC and may not be for quite some time.

Don't force me to run apps full screen to the exclusion of other programs I might have open at the same time. I have a large display and like to use it. Opening most items on my large display in Metro was extremely screen real estate wasteful and like I said, limited productivity. Having to copy and paste from a Word document to an email requires unnecessary steps and screen flips is just one example.

The forums tells me that I am approaching my daily limit of posts because I am a new user. If I stop replying today it will be because of that limitation. I have a few more to go though. Haha!

[waldojim]

TechnoBill, on 29 October 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

waldojim, on 29 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Just remember, that exact same garbage you are spewing now, was spewed forth when Windows 95 was released.

Comparing Windows 95 to Windows 8 is not directly a fair comparison.

It can be argued that Windows 95 was an interface improvement to one that was already based on the mouse and keyboard. That speaks nothing of the guts of the OS. I am referring to the GUI alone.

Windows 8 is taking a fork in the GUI development journey and traveling down a touch based interface road. As a result, mouse and keyboard users are left to interact with the computer in a manner that is not optimal.

The exact same can be argued here with Windows 8. The GUI went through a MASSIVE overhaul moving from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95. The entire structure of Windows changed. The underlying changes to the OS were just as massive.

What we have now, is MS replacing a tired, old method of interacting with your PC an going with a new direction. Mouse interactions remain fluid, while opening up other possibilities.

[waldojim]

TechnoBill, on 29 October 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

waldojim, on 29 October 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Part of why people give up too quickly, is that they take too much time focusing on Metro as a desktop interface. Don't. You lost a hierarchical start menu, and gained a flat, easily organized one. Your new start menu allows for a few tasks to be done without leaving it - like email, or music. But generally, on the desktop, it is best to keep moving with the applications you know and love.

Windows 8 is a down right superior OS. But you won't actually understand how unless it is given a proper chance. I am sorry, but installing it for a day or two - is NOT taking any time with it.

I didn't say that Windows 8 was not a better operating system. I said that its GUI, specifically Metro, is highly annoying and very limiting to how certain day to day tasks are completed. Give me the option to not have to boot into its Start screen and not have to run basic tools such as Mail and Reader without going full screen I would be happy to continue using it. Take away the Start button and associated menu and give me something different. I'll try it. I'm not opposed to change but the change must be done with the user and the method of interaction they most likely have considered. Touch is wonderful when you have it but it isn't the mainstream method of computing on a PC and may not be for quite some time.

Don't force me to run apps full screen to the exclusion of other programs I might have open at the same time. I have a large display and like to use it. Opening most items on my large display in Metro was extremely screen real estate wasteful and like I said, limited productivity. Having to copy and paste from a Word document to an email requires unnecessary steps and screen flips is just one example.

The forums tells me that I am approaching my daily limit of posts because I am a new user. If I stop replying today it will be because of that limitation. I have a few more to go though. Haha!

To solve your mal or music/movie problems, simply install a desktop based alternative.

I am not trying to be hard by they way - I am simply suggesting that things may not be as bad as perceived.

[Dellinsp531]

I already had over hundred people bring back computers to the store saying that the computer is broken. I asked what is broken and they said that there is no start menu. I was able to get about one fourth to keep the computers after giving them Windows 7 as dual boot option. I tried to give them an alterative start menu but they were afraid that it was a virus...But this next few month will be lose for sure.

MS did not think thru this at all.

Well back to installing Windows 7 for last 10 computers with Windows 8........

[RLeB]

TechnoBill, on 28 October 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Today I reinstalled Windows 7 on my PC.

I bought Windows 8 first thing Friday morning for the advertised upgrade price of $39.99 + tax and created an install DVD and let it do its thing. I did an inplace upgrade and luckily the only thing I had to uninstall was Microsoft Security Essentials.

The upgrade was without incident so I have no complaints to mention regarding it.

My issues are from trying to navigate the interface.

Being constantly switched to the Start menu and its various integrated apps for basic functions like email, PDF viewing, etc is annoying. Trying to close open programs not on the desktop requires more effort than it should. There should be a quit/close function in each app. Having to slide my mouse into the corner then carefully slide it down the screen to bring up the app switcher bar is not very convenient. It takes to long and on my 24" 1920x1200 screen it requires unnecessary mouse action in my opinion.

Trying to restart the computer requires more steps than is even remotely necessary as well.

The Metro version of IE is difficult to navigate as well. You need to use keyboard shortcuts for most things and that requires learning a lot of new ones. A lot of new ones.

I know that I could just stay in the desktop for most of my apps. But if I want to use the built in photo viewer, PDF reader, email app, address book, and various other tools, I must allow it to flip me into the Metro app which requires me to flip back to desktop mode to continue my work.

The OS is great - for a tablet. I can understand how each motion and tool is completely geared for touch. I use a keyboard and mouse though. It isn't conducive to keyboard and mouse AT ALL in my opinion.

If you have the desire to learn a large list of new keyboard shortcuts you could probably get around most of the navigational issues. I don't want to.

So I switched back to Windows 7. Microsoft got my $40 and I still have the option of using Windows 8 in the future if they improve the interface for desktop users in the future. Otherwise, I will be a hold out in 7 like so many others still are in XP. Maybe Windows 9 will be the OS we want just like 7 was to Vista. Until then ... Windows 7 is my OS of choice.

[RLeB]

I wonder why I don't see more posts pointing out the obvious... A touch screen interface is VASTLY inferior to a mouse and keyboard. An OS that optimizes the window interface for a "ge-finger-pokin" clutzy interface method, makes it much less convenient for use with a mouse and keyboard.

If you want the convenience and light weight portability of a tablet that is self contained without need for a separate keyboard or mouse, fine; a Windows 8 type interface may be an improvement over an interface optimized for a keyboard/mouse system. The problem is that MS completely screwed up the keyboard/mouse interface on ALL windows 8 computers just so that tablet/phone devices are easier to use, but made keyboard/mouse operation much less convenient. Why didn't they leave the choice of which type of interface to use up to the users who could then pick the interface that works best for their device?

At best, a touch screen interface is a terrible interface, compared with a keyboard and a mouse. It is a compromise that is only suitable for portable tablets and smart phones.

[brainout]

TechnoBill, on 29 October 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

waldojim, on 29 October 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Part of why people give up too quickly, is that they take too much time focusing on Metro as a desktop interface. Don't. You lost a hierarchical start menu, and gained a flat, easily organized one. Your new start menu allows for a few tasks to be done without leaving it - like email, or music. But generally, on the desktop, it is best to keep moving with the applications you know and love.

Windows 8 is a down right superior OS. But you won't actually understand how unless it is given a proper chance. I am sorry, but installing it for a day or two - is NOT taking any time with it.

I didn't say that Windows 8 was not a better operating system. I said that its GUI, specifically Metro, is highly annoying and very limiting to how certain day to day tasks are completed. Give me the option to not have to boot into its Start screen and not have to run basic tools such as Mail and Reader without going full screen I would be happy to continue using it. Take away the Start button and associated menu and give me something different. I'll try it. I'm not opposed to change but the change must be done with the user and the method of interaction they most likely have considered. Touch is wonderful when you have it but it isn't the mainstream method of computing on a PC and may not be for quite some time.

Don't force me to run apps full screen to the exclusion of other programs I might have open at the same time. I have a large display and like to use it. Opening most items on my large display in Metro was extremely screen real estate wasteful and like I said, limited productivity. Having to copy and paste from a Word document to an email requires unnecessary steps and screen flips is just one example.

The forums tells me that I am approaching my daily limit of posts because I am a new user. If I stop replying today it will be because of that limitation. I have a few more to go though. Haha!

Yeah, I went through the same posting limitation thing in August. They impose this limitation to prevent spambots. So DO keep posting!

This post has been edited by brainout: 03 November 2012 - 05:34 PM

[brainout]

RLeB, on 02 November 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

I wonder why I don't see more posts pointing out the obvious... A touch screen interface is VASTLY inferior to a mouse and keyboard. An OS that optimizes the window interface for a "ge-finger-pokin" clutzy interface method, makes it much less convenient for use with a mouse and keyboard.

Yeah!!!!

I just bought three test machines, one of which I'm gonna use with Windows 8. TuneUp Utilities 2011-13 all offer extensive customizations to Windows operation and especially the way the desktop functions. I'm going to test its customizations (it's compatible with Win8). Then I'll know, and report. Mind you, I still will not use Win8, but at least I won't scream every 30 seconds, at that GARISH PRISON INTERFACE which now is so popular (i.e., in MS website banners, Google, Youtube, PC World, and so many other places).

This post has been edited by brainout: 03 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

[njdirtybird7]

I have messed around with Windows 8 quite a bit before its release date. Immediately I figured it would be awesome for tablets and smart phones but not so much for PCs. I would love a Windows 8 tablet but as far as my PC is concerned I'm sticking to Windows 7.

[Dellinsp531]

I got 30 customers that brought back computers today. Got all of them to switch to linux and keep their computers. What a heading this week is starting to be because of Windows 8...Well got to get to removing Windows 8 and putting Linux on them.

[brainout]

Dellinsp531, on 06 November 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I got 30 customers that brought back computers today. Got all of them to switch to linux and keep their computers. What a heading this week is starting to be because of Windows 8...Well got to get to removing Windows 8 and putting Linux on them.

Did you have this kind of rejection response when selling Windows 7 or Vista? Just curious. Oh: would you send me a private message about where your store is? I may have clients in your area. Thank you!