[iarslangiray]

Quote

MacNewton said
Android and Chrome are going to kill Linux? They ARE Linux. I am only saying that the name "Linux" is not reaching the everyday computer user. They are not aware that they are based on UNIX/Linux. They don't care. But people know Apple and OS X and now they are aware of Googles Android OS and Crome OS. Linux is not showing up as a main-stream OS. I'm searching in vain to find a reason to care. About the only OS that's been consistent over the years is Windows. Windows has always been called Windows. Linux has really never been referred to as Linux when it came to distributions. It's sometimes tagged on the end, but you've always had Redhat, Suse, Slackware, Debain, Ubuntu, Mint, Android, ChromeOS, etc. They're all Linux. Not even Apple's OS has been consistent over the years. There were the System X days, and then came OSX, which brought about a new naming convention entirely. I doubt most people can tell you whether they have Lion or Snow Leopard or Fluffy Kitteh version of OSX. It doesn't matter. What matters is that Linux is not just succeeding, it's succeeding in a spectacular fashion. Linux isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[iarslangiray]

Sounds like, you also inhaled besides smoking.

[iarslangiray]

Quote

ajnolley said
You forgot to mention painfully difficult to do anything that isn't already pre-installed with your flavor of Linux. That's probably because she was more interested in writing something nonfiction .
ajnolley said
work work work, tap tap tap, open document, read email, test my app. No problem. Oh damn, I have to manually turn on the Cap lock key every time I log back in to the machine. Annoying. Hmmm....how do I change that. ...spend time reading on the web how to make changes in the default GUI settings, which doesn't work. Then, read that I need to download an app to do it. I download the package, run a script in the console to install it. It still doesn't work. After an hour of trying various apps, running scripts, I just realize I wasted work time on something that should take 30 seconds, and I still have to manually enter it. Hm, I'm assuming you meant Num Lock rather than Caps lock, and it's such a rough process. How do you do that? You go to the keyboard control panel and check a box. Pretty tough.
ajnolley said
And so on. And I am not an idiot. I can learn any OS rapidly. Complain all you will about either Windows or OSX, you can do what you need rapidly, and very rarely need to dig into the deeper guts of it all. I see you're more interested in fiction than reality.

So, the reality is Microsoft sales down 20% compare to last year since release on Win8. Unfortunately, Steve Balmer thinks like you and taking to MS to the cliff.

[jorgemt]

They are not "Linux". They are "Google Linux". That is, they are a moneymaking megacorporation Linux, which means it is the perfect competition to MS.

All the rest of distros are crap. They hard to configure, the learning curve is impossible for the average user who is completely uninterested in fight against command lines and configuration files.

And to all the crap about sales being down after Win8, it is just 8 who is down. XP and 7 users are happy and prancing around. I've been in this business for almost 30 years, since before PCs. Mac and MS can't be beaten. And don't give me the MacOS is Linux too. It is still corporate. And Ubuntu is NOT.

[mteejay]

I have been a professional web developer and system administrator at our web development studio for a number of years. I fell into the system admin role simply because our company required it, I therefore had no formal training and had to study the field myself.

Hacked apache / php / linux stacks are more often than not are a symptom of a system administrator that is unfamiliar with 'hardening' the web servers against exploits of malicious attackers not the software on the web server. Web Server Panels such as cpanel are getting better at 'plugging the holes' of basic attacks but the truth is if you have a lazy or ill informed system admin, then chances that it will get exploited at one time or another.

Hardening web servers against attacks is a full time job and many companies offer professional outsourcing of this type of work. If you own a small business, have you own website and run your own web servers, consult you data centre and ask them about the options to harden your web server.

Microsoft's IIS, or web server platform, is not going to be more secure - in fact I believe that the general consensus is that apache / linux stack is considered to be superior in this regard, it is simply a matter of configuring your web servers to run the way you require them to be run and 'lock off' functionality that might compromise the system.

Quote

One question - Why do all these web servers get hacked if Linux is so secure?

[linuxrants7xpg]

chosenson, on 02 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

One question - Why do all these web servers get hacked if Linux is so secure?

Well, mteejay said it much more gracefully than I will, but it comes down to this: It doesn't matter how secure the safe is if you cut a hole in the side of it and install a rickety screen door. And there will always be individuals who point out that the safe got robbed afterwards and ask why it happened if the safe was so secure.

This post has been edited by linuxrants7xpg: 02 January 2013 - 11:00 PM

[linuxrants7xpg]

iarslangiray, on 02 January 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Sounds like, you also inhaled besides smoking.

I'm sure you thought that sounded much more intelligent in your head.

jorgemt, on 02 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

All the rest of distros are crap. They hard to configure, the learning curve is impossible for the average user who is completely uninterested in fight against command lines and configuration files.

Of course, you're welcome to your own opinion, but based on your claims that other distros are "hard to configure" and "the learning curve is impossible for the average user", I think that your opinion is sorely misinformed.

jorgemt, on 02 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

And to all the crap about sales being down after Win8, it is just 8 who is down. XP and 7 users are happy and prancing around. I've been in this business for almost 30 years, since before PCs. Mac and MS can't be beaten.

Microsoft and Apple absolutely can be beaten. In the 80s, Microsoft was a nothing company and Apple wasn't much either, and they took on the corporate giant IBM. I'm sure there were those then that would have said that IBM couldn't be beaten, but they just lacked vision.

jorgemt, on 02 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

And don't give me the MacOS is Linux too.

Why would anybody tell you that? OSX isn't Linux. It never has been and more than likely it never will be. It sounds like once again, your ideas about the computer industry are woefully uninformed. 30 years you say?

[oldeddie]

Linux desktop is continuing to “fail” (in name only as usage increases) because linux is scary to the very audience that needs to be reached - “normal” people.

As a linux hobbyist I love linux. When microsoft tried to force me to spend more money to continue using the computer I have always used, I had a functioning linux partition. Hobby was the reason for trying. Money was the reason for switching.

I would love to see linux and everything open source dominate the world. I hate to see the mind-numbingly slow progress, the arguments over something as trivial as a desktop environment, when what is needed is something that JUST WORKS!!! (detect pissed off rant here).

Years ago I heard of this thing called a knoppix live cd. I popped it in and could not believe what happened...everything worked!! First time! Right “out of the box”! I could not wait to share this news with everyone.

Enter the “normal” person. Some working stiff with a family that is not interested is spending hours upon hours trying to find something to replace something they really have no problem with.

More than a year ago I replaced my 10 year old desktop computer, on which linux runs beautifully, with of course a laptop. Linux did not work. The problem was the wireless. Luckily, the laptop came with something that did work. WINDOWS! While I understand linux and appreciate that it's free, a laptop with no wireless is basically garbage and free garbage has no place for “normal” people. More than a year later the wireless kind of works but not very good. I can deal with it but thats not good enough. I want linux to just work first time. My desires have evolved to expectations.

I Hate the conceitedness of certain linux community members demand to put linux first and look down upon “normal” people who are not smart enough to “learn to use linux”, an answer I've seen time and again in various forums. (Thank you good answer people who saved me)

For example (true story, live cd worked, install didn't), if a normal windows user wants to try a duel boot system, Grub will always make linux, the experimental try, the default, instead of the default being what is normal to the user, windows. Then, when the most likely result of a new user of linux happens, some kind of problem, the hassle of having yet another step to boot (catch grub before the timeout), a bad taste and negative bias is left.

If on the other hand, the normal default was windows, the user could have a hassle free experimental system to learn on and when comfortable, feel empowered to make the controlled choice of linux as the default.

Linux and open source under any name is here to stay.

Thank you to everyone who try something new and those who help along the way.

[linuxrants7xpg]

oldeddie, on 03 January 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

For example (true story, live cd worked, install didn't), if a normal windows user wants to try a duel boot system, Grub will always make linux, the experimental try, the default, instead of the default being what is normal to the user, windows. Then, when the most likely result of a new user of linux happens, some kind of problem, the hassle of having yet another step to boot (catch grub before the timeout), a bad taste and negative bias is left.

Honestly, it's been so long since I've done a dual boot, I can't remember if there's an option to change the Grub default, but let's just do a straight up comparison of methodology. When you install Linux onto a computer that already has Windows, it's "rude" and doesn't automatically assume you want to keep Windows as your default. Personally speaking, I think it's up for debate whether that's something that it actually should do, but we'll disregard that for now and assume it should. Let's invert the scenario. What does a Windows installation do to a pre-existing Linux installation. It sure doesn't assume you want to keep Linux as your default, that's for sure. At best, it removes it completely from boot options, and at worst it overwrites it completely. Not only does it not give you the option of continuing to use Linux, but it doesn't even present it. To get Linux back (if it still exists at all), you have to go into the system with a rescue CD.

oldeddie, on 03 January 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

If on the other hand, the normal default was windows, the user could have a hassle free experimental system to learn on and when comfortable, feel empowered to make the controlled choice of linux as the default.

Or the people that are more interested in testing can use other options like Wubi. Honestly, I think it's a horrible idea to start out with the assumption that the person doing the installation of the OS doesn't actually want to use it.

[bobc4012]

Quote

Linux desktop is continuing to “fail” (in name only as usage increases) because linux is scary to the very audience that needs to be reached - “normal” people. As a linux hobbyist I love linux. When microsoft tried to force me to spend more money to continue using the computer I have always used, I had a functioning linux partition. Hobby was the reason for trying. Money was the reason for switching. I would love to see linux and everything open source dominate the world. I hate to see the mind-numbingly slow progress, the arguments over something as trivial as a desktop environment, when what is needed is something that JUST WORKS!!! (detect pissed off rant here). Years ago I heard of this thing called a knoppix live cd. I popped it in and could not believe what happened...everything worked!! First time! Right “out of the box”! I could not wait to share this news with everyone. Enter the “normal” person. Some working stiff with a family that is not interested is spending hours upon hours trying to find something to replace something they really have no problem with. More than a year ago I replaced my 10 year old desktop computer, on which linux runs beautifully, with of course a laptop. Linux did not work. The problem was the wireless. Luckily, the laptop came with something that did work. WINDOWS! While I understand linux and appreciate that it's free, a laptop with no wireless is basically garbage and free garbage has no place for “normal” people. More than a year later the wireless kind of works but not very good. I can deal with it but thats not good enough. I want linux to just work first time. My desires have evolved to expectations. I Hate the conceitedness of certain linux community members demand to put linux first and look down upon “normal” people who are not smart enough to “learn to use linux”, an answer I've seen time and again in various forums. (Thank you good answer people who saved me) For example (true story, live cd worked, install didn't), if a normal windows user wants to try a duel boot system, Grub will always make linux, the experimental try, the default, instead of the default being what is normal to the user, windows. Then, when the most likely result of a new user of linux happens, some kind of problem, the hassle of having yet another step to boot (catch grub before the timeout), a bad taste and negative bias is left. If on the other hand, the normal default was windows, the user could have a hassle free experimental system to learn on and when comfortable, feel empowered to make the controlled choice of linux as the default. Linux and open source under any name is here to stay. Thank you to everyone who try something new and those who help along the way.

[bobc4012]

Quote

Really, Katherine! I used to feel you were a breath of fresh air on iPCW - now you are pushing the Linux button in true "fanboi" style. "facing the prospect of Windows 8, which by most accounts is not a happy one" If you only read anti MS articles, True. Otherwise, rubbish. "A mobile-style interface without a Start button" ...

If you read the complaints, they primarily have to do with the desktop and non-touch displays which dominate. Those early preview versions were tested by most on desktops without a touch screen. Using a mouse in a touch screen environment is not the ideal way. Also, the average windows user is used to a menu driven system and copes with the "Start" menu (and icons) I/F. To pull the rug out from under them (no matter how simple the "Metro" I/F may seem to you) is "heresy". Its like my grandpa drove a Chevy or Ford, my father did and I do too.

BTW, you have similar griping about the Unity and Gnome 3 I/Fs in the Ubuntu/Linux world. While I dislike Unity and stayed with Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10 or Mint with MATE (IMO, superior to Cinnamon), I did find I could use a mouse easier than with "Metro".

[oldeddie]

Quote

Honestly, I think it's a horrible idea to start out with the assumption that the person doing the installation of the OS doesn't actually want to use it.

I don't get it. who said that? I believe the Idea it try before you "buy" (even if it's free). Keep your comfort while you venture.

There is no install or gui option to choose grub default boot in any distro I have seen. Is that so hard?

While I can agree with the rest factually, that's not the point. I believe what you are saying is part of the problem I am attempting to address. Take a less egocentric view.

I want everyone to understand the virtues of GNU/linux. Speaking linux to a “normal” everyday windows desktop home user, you might as well be speaking greek. Wubi I understand but the point is moot to a “normal” windows user. Sure a guy could do this and that but I want to advance linux in the population, “normal” people who have no idea what you are talking about. Describe a rainbow to the blind.

Doing “a straight up comparison of methodology” espouses the virtues, but is pointless until my target audience, “normal” windows desktop users, understand what is going on.

As far as the title of the article, “Make 2013 the year you switch to Linux”, there are good reasons why linux desktop is gaining, but, anyone who has tried or used linux can decide for themselves when the threshold that meets their own needs has been crossed, so is 2013 the year?

What does “switch” mean when I must use windows to go mobile? Having duel boot is the best of both worlds for me. When the wireless problem is solved I'm not going to use windows but I'm not going to get rid of my windows partition.

What if instead of “switch”, very black and white, you “migrated”. Even you admitted using duel boot at one time.

What about

Quote

the prospect of switching away from Mac or Windows and onto Linux can be a nerve-wracking one.

Or

Quote

Linux desktop is continuing to “fail” (in name only as usage increases) because linux is scary to the very audience that needs to be reached

What about the big partitioning warning “THIS PROCESS CAN NOT BE UNDONE”, not true, I undid it.

If you are really interested in evangelizing linux, a little humility would go a long way.

[linuxrants7xpg]

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I believe the Idea it try before you "buy" (even if it's free). Keep your comfort while you venture.

That's why the installation is a Live version of the OS. You can boot off a CD/DVD or a USB key and have a virtually whole version of the OS on your hardware without having to install anything at all. You can even create a USB key that will retain your settings so you can continue to try it over and over and have your changes carry through.

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

There is no install or gui option to choose grub default boot in any distro I have seen. Is that so hard?

Is there a single OS installation for any OS that does this? Ever? Windows? OSX? Linux? OS/2? DOS? Some version of a BSD? Oberon?

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Even you admitted using duel boot at one time.

I've been working in the computer industry in one form or another for longer than there has been a Linux. I kept Windows around for a long time for gaming reasons, but no longer find even that to be something I need. I wasn't born using Linux as my default OS.

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you are really interested in evangelizing linux, a little humility would go a long way.

Humility? What were you expecting? "Yes sir! Of course sir! Thank you for correcting me sir!" Sorry, it's not going to happen. You think that Linux's installation should automatically assume that it's an "experimental" install and leave Windows as the default, and I think that's a stupid idea. That's probably why no OS that I can think of (ever) has ever done that.

[chosenson]

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Quote

Honestly, I think it's a horrible idea to start out with the assumption that the person doing the installation of the OS doesn't actually want to use it.

I don't get it. who said that? I believe the Idea it try before you "buy" (even if it's free). Keep your comfort while you venture.

There is no install or gui option to choose grub default boot in any distro I have seen. Is that so hard?

While I can agree with the rest factually, that's not the point. I believe what you are saying is part of the problem I am attempting to address. Take a less egocentric view.

I want everyone to understand the virtues of GNU/linux. Speaking linux to a “normal” everyday windows desktop home user, you might as well be speaking greek. Wubi I understand but the point is moot to a “normal” windows user. Sure a guy could do this and that but I want to advance linux in the population, “normal” people who have no idea what you are talking about. Describe a rainbow to the blind.

Doing “a straight up comparison of methodology” espouses the virtues, but is pointless until my target audience, “normal” windows desktop users, understand what is going on.

As far as the title of the article, “Make 2013 the year you switch to Linux”, there are good reasons why linux desktop is gaining, but, anyone who has tried or used linux can decide for themselves when the threshold that meets their own needs has been crossed, so is 2013 the year?

What does “switch” mean when I must use windows to go mobile? Having duel boot is the best of both worlds for me. When the wireless problem is solved I'm not going to use windows but I'm not going to get rid of my windows partition.

What if instead of “switch”, very black and white, you “migrated”. Even you admitted using duel boot at one time.

What about

Quote

the prospect of switching away from Mac or Windows and onto Linux can be a nerve-wracking one.

Or

Quote

Linux desktop is continuing to “fail” (in name only as usage increases) because linux is scary to the very audience that needs to be reached

What about the big partitioning warning “THIS PROCESS CAN NOT BE UNDONE”, not true, I undid it.

If you are really interested in evangelizing linux, a little humility would go a long way.

Very well put oldeddie.

You're point is so very true.

Wouldn't it be a grand idea if someone put together a great distro which could be installed easily, not require anything more than a basic update download/install after the initial install, have all the most popular and useful programs installed with the distro, and last, but certainly not least, A user manual which spoke average joe, not tech-nerd. (pardon my jargon - I am one such tech-nerd.).
The same audience Linux wants to capture is the same audience, which at some point in their lives, had never used a computer; regardless of OS.

BTW - I have tried a few flavors of Linux, Ubuntu having been my favorite. But, Linux lacks some of what I already have - Very good programs. I know their are plenty of great programs for Linux which are similar to their Windows cousin's, and I make use of some of the same Windows versions of many, but there are a few that still haven't cut it for me. The Office alternatives are great; and for the average user, SIMPLY PERFECT, but I am not a typical user.

Linux; Try it, most likely you will LOVE IT.

[oldeddie]

Quote

"Yes sir! Of course sir! Thank you for correcting me sir!" Sorry, it's not going to happen. You think that Linux's installation should automatically assume that it's an "experimental" install and leave Windows as the default, and I think that's a stupid idea. That's probably why no OS that I can think of (ever) has ever done that.

Once again you are missing the point.

You are not someone I want to try linux. You are not helping the cause with attitude. You responded to others by pointing out logical fallacy, appeal to authority, then display fallacy of your own, compounded by lack of understanding other points of view. You responded to my post by missing the point. Your facts are moot. Your superior attitude is what I was complaining about, a detriment to the cause. Nothing but arguing. You claim you are a so called professional. I am not.

There is a fine line between ethnocentrism and narcissism.

A little humility would go a long way.

You may not "get it" but others will.

[oldeddie]

Quote

There is a fine line between ethnocentrism and narcissism.

OOps, that should be egocentrism, somthing we all display.

[linuxrants7xpg]

oldeddie, on 04 January 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

There is a fine line between [egocentrism] and narcissism.

Very true. Which would assuming that a product should have a feature just because it would make things a little easier for you, completely ignoring the fact that it's at best irrelevant to the majority of people that use the product, and at worst, something that would add steps to the process for those same people be?

This post has been edited by linuxrants7xpg: 04 January 2013 - 07:48 PM

[oldeddie]

Quote

oldeddie said
just because it would make things a little easier for you

As usual completely missing the point. I'm not even talking about me. I can edit the grub file. I want linux default.

Quote

Linux's installation should automatically assume that it's an "experimental" install and leave Windows as the default, and I think that's a stupid idea.

Such a

Quote

stupid

straw man fallacy
I now leave you for your

Quote

stupid

last word

good-bye

[waldojim]

For what it is worth guys, I have tried out Team Fortress 2 on Linux, and it is IMPRESSIVE. Steam managed to clean up Linux games quite nicely for the Linux platform.

[StevenSinofsky]

Linux?

This post has been edited by StevenSinofsky: 08 January 2013 - 03:19 PM