[waldojim]

I know we chased off one of our car guys (Asiafish) quite some time ago, so I am curious if we have anyone here that keeps up on these things...

I don't want to go to most car forums (or even Reddit) as there are a lot of very passionate people about one brand/model or another. So I figured I would stop over here, and see what you guys thought. Right now I am looking for something for the wife, and taking in information that can help the decision making process... We will be test driving cars shortly, and right now we only have a few that seemed worthy of attention: Subaru Legacy, VW Passat and Tiguan, and the Dodge Charger SE.

I have several that I have taken off the list, like the Honda Accord / CRV, Volvo S40, Dodge Journey, and the entire Toyota lineup. I haven't decided if I even like the Ford Fusion or Cruze yet... but neither one seemed desirable. The Mitsubishi Outlander has an impressive feature-set, more than ample room, but looks like it would be way too under-powered, it also has chincy parts in use, so unless something compelling comes up, I think it may be nixed as well.

You know how I get, and I am sorry, but this will be a tad long-winded. Namely because it is impossible to help someone without knowing what has been done, and what the requirements/desires are. At the same time, the most obvious conditions are not set in stone, which complicates things as well.

So, to start off - what we want for certain, what we don't want, approximate price, and preferences.

Target price: about $25,000. There is room for more, but I would prefer less of course.

Requirements:
We are looking for something that has enough space for the family, just 3 of us for now, and enough room for a person who is 6ft tall in both the front and back seats.
It needs to be well made, and designed to last for 10 years or more.
It must have airconditioning, and an auto-magic tranny.

Desires:
Prefer to have a fun car with plenty of power to play in.
Prefer to have enough cargo room for extended trips.
Prefer to have decent gas mileage, though this is a secondary concern.
An "upscale" interior is preferred as well. Not that we are looking at wood-grain, or aluminum, etc - but more soft touch surfaces, and stain-resistant seats.
Would also like AWD, if it fits the budget... Not a necessity in Texas, but we do go to Ohio from time to time.

What we don't want:
We will not take a car that is too small to even fit the little one in the back seat.
We will not take a car that is way under-powered.
I would prefer to avoid the added complexity of a Turbo/Super Charger.
I would prefer to avoid cars requiring Premium fuel.
I would prefer to avoid cars with timing belts.
I will NOT purchase a car that is known for squeaks, creaks, or rattles.

So, there we have it...

The Charger is a fun car, with an 8 speed tranny, and more than enough power. I actually like this car a lot. You start approaching $30K quickly though with AWD, and I really want to stay away from that. There are also quality concerns here. Has anyone had any experience with the recent Chargers?

The Legacy is a tad small, but seems extremely well made. Unfortunately, it is lacking a bit in the "fun" department. Relatively bland styling, as well as a lack of power makes me question this choice. The opposing 6 is an option, but the price jumps to over $30K for it.

The Passat shares the same drawbacks as the Subaru, except for the space (TONS OF SPACE IN A PASSAT), while adding its own weakness in seemingly cheap design and build. They also use a 5cyl engine to achieve the same power as Subaru... Not sure what I think about a 5 cyl engine.

The Tiguan seems to have an excellent blend all the way around, if you can get past the 2.0ltr engine in an SUV...

Volvo was nixed when I got into their car and everything squeaked. They are very annoying little cars.

Honda was taken out of the running, not because of the cars, but our local dealer. Apparently, they get so much business there, they have no need to consider how they treat their customers. I refuse to go back.

Toyota and Nissan both make cars I refuse to drive. Toyota's 2012 models have serious ABS issues (lock up the brakes, then try to recover? I am from Ohio, that [censored] gets you killed!), and the Nissan we test drove was the most annoying car ever driven. It was obnoxiously loud, and a very poor choice for long drives.


So, that is it. I appreciate comments regarding perceptions of quality, choices I may not have considered, and horror / success stories with anything you might find relevant. Thank you guys in advance.

[LiveBrianD]

I'm not that familiar with this stuff, but I will say that my family has had good experiences work Nissan and Honda (particularly the latter), but I'd avoid Toyota. My mom's 2002 highlander developed a problem leaking oil and burning it off on a cold start (creating a smelly blue cloud), and she sold it a few years ago...

[compnovo]

Of the cars you listed I would opt for the Legacy. My son is a mechanic and owns his own shop, and he has high praise for recent Subarus (the older ones with turbo chargers were awful).

[waldojim]

The Subaru and the Charger are the two we keep coming back to. While we don't want to rule anything out prematurely, they just seem to be our favorites so far.

Thank you for your feedback.

[mjd420nova]

I just went through the process of replacing our venerable Ford Taurus. I haven't bought a new car since '76 so digging into used models became a real endeavor. I really like the Subaru but have found parts difficult to get and a raft of special tools are needed to do some service jobs. My last search resulted in a 95 BMW 525i. Exceptional condition for 145,000 miles. Really surprised by the solid feel of that car. I do all my own service and do have access to a lift if needed. My last new purchase was a 1976 Chevy Van and it served a family of six for 15 years and 250,000 miles. I'm pretty wary of new models, I'd prefer a new model that has been available for a few years, let them get the bugs out first and I'd buy in a later year. Servicablity is my first concern, dealers don't do the best job so it has to be up to me. Smaller cars have gotten a little bigger but the compacts have just become too small, like the Fiat 500.

[coastie65]

May want to check out the Hundai Sonata as well. I have been pretty impressed with those.

[lilxkid24]

I personally avoid all American Cars since I've had bad experiences with them. I would totally recommend the Toyota Camry 2012 but since you don't like Toyota I would say Hyundai Sonata, Nissan Altima, Mazda 6, Volkswagen Passat

This post has been edited by lilxkid24: 31 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

[waldojim]

The Toyotas we drove all had the same problem, poor ABS control. Essentially, if you hit the brakes in the rain, they locked up then try to recover. Considering what I have driven in, I know better. ABS is not supposed to work like that. That type of behavior will kill you. As such, they are on my "Not no, but hell no" list. Fortunately, they didn't have anything that appealing to start with, so no big loss. Hyundai I considered - not so much the Sonata, but the Santa Fe. Unfortunately, they did away with the Santa Fe in favor of the new "Sport" model, that has a less powerful engine, and did away with many of the little niceties. The Sonata still has far too much Kia in the underpinning for my tastes, as it is very closely related to the Kia Optima that I was glad to part with. Nissan was taken off the list due to an experience with a rental. That car drove so poorly, that I had to swap it out for something else. Even considering that the poor driving was likely due to poor maintenance, I have to note that it had poor noise control in the cabin, and a very weak, noisy, strung-out engine. They seriously need to consider retiring the 2.5ltr in that car.

The Passat hasn't entirely been ruled out, though I can say it is near the bottom of the list. For a "German" car, it is far too American. Cheap interior, underpowered engine, and shortcuts taken in placed they should not have been. Consider the fact that even Kia has moved to non-interference TRUNK hinges. Of all the places to cheap out, why that one?

Mazda, I have not really considered or checked out. I will have to do so.

I also went and talked to the Dodge dealer today... they make a very tempting offer. For $25,500, they will let me leave there with a brand new Charger, SE V6 with 8sp tranny, and a lifetime warranty... That is very hard to ignore.

[mjd420nova]

The engines in the new machines are some real technological marvels. What they do with a two liter motor with multiple valves, fuel injection an as Chevy found out, rearranging the firing order eliminated the need for balancing on the crankshaft. What had been considered a small motor is now turning over 250 HP. With the industry being forced to develop more and more efficient cars, I'm sure we've not seen the last of some incredible power plants. Battery power, not a chance, not enough range. I'm not as set against the American cars as some, I've had more than few that were very good and proved to be quite serviceable, unlike many imports and didn't require any special tools.

[waldojim]

I am not dead set against American cars, Korean cars I am. The Korean cars seem (to me) to be barely a step above Chinese. I don't mind the use of a small engine to produce massive power. I am against a small engine that is actually small in a large car. Example: There are still some manufacturers using a 160HP 4cyl in what is essentially a full sized car. They are slow. Pathetically slow. And realistically, not a smart purchase. Others have found a decent balance in the engine, like the VW Tiguan, which don't bother me in the slightest.

[lilxkid24]

waldojim, on 01 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

I am not dead set against American cars, Korean cars I am. The Korean cars seem (to me) to be barely a step above Chinese. I don't mind the use of a small engine to produce massive power. I am against a small engine that is actually small in a large car. Example: There are still some manufacturers using a 160HP 4cyl in what is essentially a full sized car. They are slow. Pathetically slow. And realistically, not a smart purchase. Others have found a decent balance in the engine, like the VW Tiguan, which don't bother me in the slightest.

I can't stand my 06 civic at times cuz 140HP is not enough to get on the freeway without flooring it most of the time (especially if I'm carrying other people)

[Szczecinianin]

Look at SUVs, like  Chevrolet Suburban, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, Toyota Sequoia, Audi Q7, Mercedes-Benz GL, Toyota Landcruiser, Lexus LX, and Buick Enclave. They may seem big and are not among the cheapest but you won't have to buy a new car when your family grows. 

[Flashorn]

Hey Jim !

OK, don't own any imports and probably never will. Had a Toyota once and it truly is a pitiful car.

Always owned and drove Oldsmobile and Ford trucks . Right now, aside from the Shelby, we drive a
Ford Explorer (Eddie Bauer edition) with the 4.6L engine. No, it's not new (don't think you can get one these days)
and not easy on fuel but, worth every penny. Here in Canada with the winters we have, it makes it so much easier
to get around. Just saying that I wouldn't change it for any of the new ones today.

On the other hand, my youngest and her mate just bought a BMW X3 and it really is a wonderful car (truck).
Lots of power , good handling , very good brakes and lots of room , good visibility , and Higher off ground
which is what I like. NO, not cheap but, it seems to be pretty good on gas and good warranty.

Anyways, just giving my thoughts and what I like about the ones I own and know about.



FLASHORN.

[waldojim]

Hey, I am taking all the information in that I can! Thank you all.

I got lucky today and got a chance to check out the new 2014 Subaru Forester. WOW is there a change. The new Forester looks longer and taller than the 2013 Outback! They are not using a 3.6L V6 in there, but they are updating the 2.0L 4cyl turbo (250hp). There is a tremendous amount of space in there, and has all the features one could ask for. It is something worth checking out! And these are coming mid March.

http://www.subaruofp...14-forester.htm

This post has been edited by waldojim: 08 February 2013 - 01:16 AM

[smax013]

Have you looked at the "small" SUVs such as an Escape, RAV4, CRV, Equinox, etc?

If you do, I am not sure I would suggest the CRV (even if you could get yourself to go back to the Honda dealer). My mom has a CRV and it definitely has more road noise and "squeaks & creaks" than my Grand Cherokee does.

I have not tried the new Escape, so I cannot say how it rides. I was not too impressed with the older model Escapes.

You could also look at the mid-size size SUVs such as the Grand Cherokee or Explorer or Edge. You would likely have to live with 2WD if you are to keep it close to $25,000 (you would likely be a bit over $25,000). My 2007 Grand Cherokee does well in terms of road noise, etc. Of course, it gets really crappy gas milage. The new model is better with gas milage, but it is still is not that great. Generally, I have found mid-size size SUVs to have better build quality than the "small" SUVs and generally more fun to drive, but you pay for it in fuel economy typically.

Also take a look at the Mazda CX-5 and CX-9. When I got my Grand Cherokee, the CX-9 was a close second.

And even though you will likely curse under your breath at me...have you looked at minivans? If your family is growing, then it might be something to consider even if they are massively "uncool" (my buddy almost smacked me for suggesting it years ago for his wife's car...of course, a decade or so later, they now have a minivan and he loves the space).

I do have to say of your current list that you are considering, I would likely say my first choice would be a Subaru. I also have to admit that the new Fusion interests me...I have not driven one or looked at one close up (my Grand Cherokee ain't goin' no where soon...it will be paid off next month, so it will be driven into the ground now), but I certainly like the look...assuming I would ever get a car instead of a SUV/crossover/truck again.

[mjd420nova]

I've worked on a half dozen of the jeep four door wagons with noisy and sloppy front ends. Turned them all for a good profit and modest investment of time and parts. I like the longevity of the Subarus but the servicablity sux. I need a vehicle that I can either depend on or are familiar enough with to be able to fix it on the road. The Chrysler town/country units are prone to water pump failure and what is normal an easy job can take a full day to acccomplish. Beware the sideways mounted motors(front wheel drive). Most engine service means taking off one front wheel or the other. The newer Ford units I've driven are the Edge, focus, Taurus and Next, besides the huge Navigator and Explorer. The smaller ones with FWD have a bearing failure on the front wheel that causes the front wheel to fll off. I think I would have heard the roar long before that point was reached. A complaint I've heard from all the users of new cars is the engine governor, no speeds allowed over one hundred. Wonder why??

[waldojim]

smax013, on 12 February 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Have you looked at the "small" SUVs such as an Escape, RAV4, CRV, Equinox, etc?

If you do, I am not sure I would suggest the CRV (even if you could get yourself to go back to the Honda dealer). My mom has a CRV and it definitely has more road noise and "squeaks & creaks" than my Grand Cherokee does.

I have not tried the new Escape, so I cannot say how it rides. I was not too impressed with the older model Escapes.

I don't remember much about the CRV, but it is good to know that it would have been a waste of time! Thank you.

The Escapes have been showing a trend for being problematic, and I think I am going to pass on them. As if the Escapes catching fire before leaving the factory wasn't enough, they seem to have poor separation between the ignition and the computer leaving a lot of people with cooked components. That last one seems to be consistent across several model years.

As for Chevy products, my wife has been reluctant to go look at them, but we are supposed to go check that out this coming weekend.

Quote

You could also look at the mid-size size SUVs such as the Grand Cherokee or Explorer or Edge. You would likely have to live with 2WD if you are to keep it close to $25,000 (you would likely be a bit over $25,000). My 2007 Grand Cherokee does well in terms of road noise, etc. Of course, it gets really crappy gas milage. The new model is better with gas milage, but it is still is not that great. Generally, I have found mid-size size SUVs to have better build quality than the "small" SUVs and generally more fun to drive, but you pay for it in fuel economy typically.

Also take a look at the Mazda CX-5 and CX-9. When I got my Grand Cherokee, the CX-9 was a close second.

You know, I have been meaning to look at Mazda offerings, and have yet to do so. They just end up being forgotten. lol

We didn't give the Cherokee too much of our time, as the dealer didn't have any close to our price range, until you mentioned it, I didn't realize there was a version around $25,000. That will have to be revisited. Gas mileage really doesn't mean much to us, as we have been known to do this drive in my pickup! That only gets 20~21 if I am gentle.

Quote

And even though you will likely curse under your breath at me...have you looked at minivans? If your family is growing, then it might be something to consider even if they are massively "uncool" (my buddy almost smacked me for suggesting it years ago for his wife's car...of course, a decade or so later, they now have a minivan and he loves the space).

I do have to say of your current list that you are considering, I would likely say my first choice would be a Subaru. I also have to admit that the new Fusion interests me...I have not driven one or looked at one close up (my Grand Cherokee ain't goin' no where soon...it will be paid off next month, so it will be driven into the ground now), but I certainly like the look...assuming I would ever get a car instead of a SUV/crossover/truck again.

Truth be told, I don't want a minivan, an SUV would do just as well I should think.

The new Fusion is a mixed bag. It is a very well mannered car, it looks sharp, and the 6 speed takes advantage of what little power it does make (on the 4cyl I drove). The interior is generally pleasing, and comfortable. The issues basically stemmed from cheeping out in some places. Like the instrument cluster. It looks sharp, until you realize that they used stickers to get that sharp appearance. On its own, stickers aren't a problem. In Texas, the heat will cause them to act funny, and I suspect peel... But it wasn't just that, it was in many places it looked like they used a very cheap route to create a 'cool' effect. Either way, I actually did like the car, just have some concerns long term.

[waldojim]

mjd420nova, on 12 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

I've worked on a half dozen of the jeep four door wagons with noisy and sloppy front ends. Turned them all for a good profit and modest investment of time and parts. I like the longevity of the Subarus but the servicablity sux. I need a vehicle that I can either depend on or are familiar enough with to be able to fix it on the road. The Chrysler town/country units are prone to water pump failure and what is normal an easy job can take a full day to acccomplish. Beware the sideways mounted motors(front wheel drive). Most engine service means taking off one front wheel or the other. The newer Ford units I've driven are the Edge, focus, Taurus and Next, besides the huge Navigator and Explorer. The smaller ones with FWD have a bearing failure on the front wheel that causes the front wheel to fll off. I think I would have heard the roar long before that point was reached. A complaint I've heard from all the users of new cars is the engine governor, no speeds allowed over one hundred. Wonder why??

For what it is worth, every car I have owned has a governor. Most at 109, not sure about the truck as I won't take it past 100.

That is good information to have though, thank you.

[smax013]

waldojim, on 12 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

As for Chevy products, my wife has been reluctant to go look at them, but we are supposed to go check that out this coming weekend.

I don't blame her...I have never been too fond of GM products overall. They have gotten better in the last decade or so (from my perspective). We had a Pontiac G6 for a rental once on vacation and I actually liked it...of course, Pontiac is no more. I have had a couple other GM cars as rental in last half decade that where not too bad. And my buddy has a Cobalt SS that is not that bad (he has stored it in my garage over the Winter a couple times).

Quote

You know, I have been meaning to look at Mazda offerings, and have yet to do so. They just end up being forgotten. lol

I have usually like Mazda vehicles when I test drive them, but have never ended up with one. Definitely worth a look.

Quote

We didn't give the Cherokee too much of our time, as the dealer didn't have any close to our price range, until you mentioned it, I didn't realize there was a version around $25,000. That will have to be revisited. Gas mileage really doesn't mean much to us, as we have been known to do this drive in my pickup! That only gets 20~21 if I am gentle.

You will probably have a heck of time finding one of those ones that are close to $25000 on a dealer lot. Dealers don't tend to like to have the "cheapest" models of cars on their lot. They seem to want to push you to more expensive versions. I cannot ever remember seeing a 2WD Grand Cherokee on a lot...but then it is not like I go looking very often. You might have to test drive a more expensive model and then if you like it, factory order the more budget friendly model if you decide to go that route.

The current version of the Grand Cherokee is better at fuel economy than my model, even if you ignore the fact that I have a V8. FWIW, with that V8 I can actually get about 21 mpg on the freeway when going about 65 mph (that seems to be the "sweet spot" that they have the computer tuned to for maximum fuel economy on mine). I regularly get about 18 to 19 mpg with about 90% of that driving being 55 mph country highway driving. And to give a little perspective, I do tend to accelerate faster than most, so that does drop my fuel economy some.

Quote

Truth be told, I don't want a minivan, an SUV would do just as well I should think.

Exactly my buddy's mentality when I first suggest a minivan to him. That was back when he had two little kids (i.e. less than 2 years old). He when through a PT Cruiser, a Honda CRV, and a Saturn Vue before most recently finally coming back to a Chrysler Town & Country. What finally got him to overcome his reluctance what when we took my dad's Honda Odyssey up to help them move from one house to another. He was impressed with the amount of crap you put in the van with all the seats out/folded down. So, in the end, the practical nature the room over came his view of a minivan being "massively uncool".

Of course, most minivans are going to get you past $25000 pretty quick.

[ubinjoshed]

I am a mechanic turned computer geek and have a lot of experience with a lot of these cars. So far, I think your assessment is pretty good and you should be taking a lot of these things into consideration.

Sounds like you don't like Toyota or Nissan, unfortunately, I am a big fan of these. They are well made and though Toyota has had a few issues, they have been addressing them and doing a great job doing so. Nissan has been an underdog to Honda and Toyota, but seriously underrated. These guys are innovative and have done well in putting out a good product with the exception of the 2.5L 4 cylinder engine in the early to lat 2000's. They long ago walked away from the annoying timing belts and Toyota as of 2004? or so has done the same thing. You should get a good quality product out of any one of them, but when it comes down to it, it's preference.

STAY AWAY, I MEAN FAR AWAY FROM MITSUBISHI. I try not to be biased to cars, but they are cheap pieces of [censored] and I have had to do a lot of serious repairs on these vehicles. I believe that they were a big problem for Chrysler's failures as these two companies were in bed together for years.

As far as Chrysler corporation (Dodge as well), I tend to stay away from them as it is clear they nearly went out of business 3 times in the past 20 years for a reason, HOWEVER, the 300's, Chargers and Magnums were nothing short of EXTREMELY impressive. I know when they first came out, they had issues with tie rod ends and suspension components failing often and with low mileage. I am not sure if that was ever remedied, but the HEMI is an impressive engine and know a few people who own these and love them claiming they have not had to do much to them. Only time will tell if Chrysler got their heads out of their asses, but the Charger looks like a good car and the Hemi gets great gas mileage, even better than the v6's, and will dust just about anything out there. Gonna be a toss up on that one. I gotta say, they are beautiful inside and out and they are roomy.

Volkswagens are excellent cars except when that have problems as they are expensive to repair, however if you ever work on one of these, you can see the excellence in their engineering. I used to hate VW, but have grown to really like them and see they are truly leaders in innovative auto engineering. Keep in mind the drivetrains are AUDI and well made. I have not messed with the 5 cylinder engine, but every time I get in a VW or AUDI, I find they are powerhouses. They are always fast, give you great control and you feel like you can kick anyones ass in a race. They are usually loaded and I have always been so impressed with the room they give and their beautiful interior designs post 2000. I'm not sure if they still use timing belts or not, but don't let that deter you, I have seen many overhead cam engines with chains fail causing major engine damage. If you change the belt at 100,000 miles and that is the only real major expense you're putting into it besides regular maintenance, you're doing good. I would recommend a VW, but it's preference.

Subarus I believe are good cars and also believe they are overrated. I have yet to meet someone that owns a Subaru that did not LOVE their car, so I guess that says a lot. You can't find them slightly used anywhere, which I think says a lot, however, in the past they have had head gasket issues leaking coolant. This is a well known problem, but people still love their Subarus. They said they have fixed that problem after like 2004 or 5 I think, but this is not true, I have seen a few other late model Subarus still leaking coolant and oil leaking from the heads. I have even told people tell me there was no way and swear it couldn't be true, but I have seen it myself. I even talked to my cylinder head guy and he said he still sees problems with them. Even with these problems people love their Subarus. I feel they are decent for the most part and the leaks are always external not causing any rapid fluid loss or any getting in the engine, so that's a plus for it. With that said, people love them, so I think that says a lot about them, but I agree with you about the room, it would be inadequate for me. Other than the heads (which I do believe it probably is improved and doesn't happen as often as it used to), I don't see much problems with them, they are reliable and give you the feel they can handle all the weather conditions you will face. I also like them because they are easy to work on.

I think Ford has really stepped up to the plate and have been putting out great products. Have you considered the new Taurus? Also, the Ford Flex? The Flex for me at first was an eye sore until I got in one. I love them, they are beautiful, great interior and loaded loaded loaded. I have nothing negative to say about either one, but they are kinda too new to know for sure how dependable, but it should be noted the old VP of Boeing took over Ford in 2007. If you're asking what that means, it means EXCELLENCE. Boeing has a high standard for excellence as they build aircrafts for commercial use, NASA, government and military. To give them a bad product EVER is suicide and would jeopardize the future of the company. With that said, I started seeing wonderful improvements in performance, engineering and dependability of these cars. I'm not going to lie, I like Ford and am biased to them BECAUSE of the fact they are American, they did not need to be bailed out and they have clearly made great strides in making sexier cars, more powerful and eco friendly gas sippers. Give them a try?

BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT BANG!!!!!! for your buck
Hyundai Sonata
Kia Optima

They are 19-25K, LOADED LOADED LOADED LOADED LOADED LOADED!!!!!!!
SEXY SEXY SEXY SEXY!!!!!!!
Sorry, but they really deserve it. I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for, however, Hyundai makes this statement a lie. They are great well-made cars, innovative and nice for the price you pay. They are cheap and they resale quite well. Their depreciation is not felt as much, because they are selling high used, sometimes up there with used Toyotas and Hondas. They will never be as performing as a german car, but they don't need to be. If I ever bought a new car (which I wouldn't), and was looking to save, I wouldn't hesitate to buy either of these cars. FYI, Kia and Hyundai are the same like Chrysler and Dodge, Ford and Lincoln, etc. If I was going to say buy this car, I would say buy a Hyundai Sonata or Kia Optima. Hyundai has also switched to timing chains. They also have their 10 yr/ 100,000 mile warranty, so that should ease some of your worry. I rarely have seen much go wrong with Hyundais aside from maintenance.

As you consider your buying options, my mechanic friends and I always sorta joke with our customers when they ask what we like and tell people that all cars are pieces of [censored], it just depends on what you like and what you're willing to put up with. No matter what you buy, you're going to have something go wrong. I hope this info is helpful and feel free to ask any other questions. These are my opinions, but I really did try to be unbiased.