[PCWorld]

Post your comments for High Surface RT returns could point to deeper problems for Windows RT here

[JayInMesa]

Learning curve... Less than 5 minutes of tinkering around and even using the tutorial online and I got it. Is this the way of things now? If the device requires you to learn a few simple things, you just give up and say I can't do it? WOW! The average intelligence of the populace has decreased thanks to super easy UIs like iOS and Android.

I showed a bunch of egghead engineering students how easy the device was to use and they got it, so could my 80 year old grandmother who got a brand new windows 8 laptop for xmas (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 UIs are identical).

Forgive my rant ladies and gentlemen, you could say that I used to have a higher standard set for people and their will to learn.

[MrHistamine]

Being their "guesstimate", I think they're completely off. I don't think the steep learning curve is the main reason for the returns. I think, (as you indicated in the article) it's more so the fact that many of the people who bought W8RT, didn't realize what the difference was (until they actually tried it out). The return rate seems more of a reaction to "why can't I run the programs I have on my PC, on my tablet? It is Windows after all...".

And, weren't the OEMs the ones pushing for an RT version of Windows? Weren't they all proclaiming that they'd be utilizing ARM processors in all their tablets, instead of x86? And why didn't they just go with Windows Phone at that point?

RT (at least to me) has always sounded like the bastard child of a failed Microsoft/OEM fling; now, it's proving it is.

[LiveBrianD]

MrHistamine, on 31 January 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Being their "guesstimate", I think they're completely off. I don't think the steep learning curve is the main reason for the returns. I think, (as you indicated in the article) it's more so the fact that many of the people who bought W8RT, didn't realize what the difference was (until they actually tried it out). The return rate seems more of a reaction to "why can't I run the programs I have on my PC, on my tablet? It is Windows after all...".

And, weren't the OEMs the ones pushing for an RT version of Windows? Weren't they all proclaiming that they'd be utilizing ARM processors in all their tablets, instead of x86? And why didn't they just go with Windows Phone at that point?

RT (at least to me) has always sounded like the bastard child of a failed Microsoft/OEM fling; now, it's proving it is.

This is exactly what I was worried about but others ignored...

[angryshortguy]

Quote

Learning curve... Less than 5 minutes of tinkering around and even using the tutorial online and I got it. Is this the way of things now? If the device requires you to learn a few simple things, you just give up and say I can't do it? WOW! The average intelligence of the populace has decreased thanks to super easy UIs like iOS and Android. I showed a bunch of egghead engineering students how easy the device was to use and they got it, so could my 80 year old grandmother who got a brand new windows 8 laptop for xmas (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 UIs are identical). Forgive my rant ladies and gentlemen, you could say that I used to have a higher standard set for people and their will to learn.

That's the kind of thinking that's getting MS in trouble.
You may have a higher standard for people and their will to learn, but most people have a higher standard for the products companies make.
Their products should be easier to use, not more difficult.

So yes, Apple and Android have set the bar in 'ease of use' and intuitive controls.
MS ignored this and expected their customers to work at it a little harder.
Not going to happen. It's the way people are.
Blame computers and instant gratification products for this.

People want a pleasant and easy experience.
Not a reason to take a class.
Not a reason to read an operating manual.
Not a pain in the rear.

Sorry, this is just human nature.
And MS missed again...

[fonzman78]

"Mix a confusing interface with a neutered operating system, add a dash of ignorance about that operating system's inherent limitations" - do you mean the Ipad?

Ipad's run a neutered version of OS X but no one seems to point that out. And, believe it or not, there is a learning curve with the Ipad. I know, I have one. Do you think I just picked it up and instantly knew all the shortcuts? Coming from a PC world, I find the Ipads and Mac confusing. I don't see how anyone can even use a Mac laptop. Why is there no right mouse button? How do I close or open a program. Does this make the Ipad or Mac an inferior product. Not at all. I just need to spend some time with them. But heaven forbid that you take 5-10 minutes to learn how to use the Metro interface. It's much easier for you declare the RT/Pro flawed than to actually use it.

I returned the RT because I will get the Pro on the 9th. There was no confusion on my part as to the difference between them. Having used the RT, I am convinced that the Pro will be the perfect device for me - a work and play device in a tablet form factor. As for the RT, I think it is the best tablet in its' space. Perfect for students, kids, and older folks. Just like the Ipad. But, with the RT, at least you can do some real work with it.

Last, I'm not bashing the Ipad. It is a great device. Just that, for me, and I suspect other business professionals, the RT or Pro will be better suited for our needs - work and play.

[Timkibblewhite]

i am completely happy with my surface RT it does everything i want. My text books are great my assignments are great and a couple of games for a small distraction. People need to stop complaining about oh it hasn't got as many apps as apple or google. How about shut the hell up and let developers take some time to produce them. Apple App store was not build in a day so why should windows store. [censored] children

[MrHistamine]

angryshortguy, on 31 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Quote

Learning curve... Less than 5 minutes of tinkering around and even using the tutorial online and I got it. Is this the way of things now? If the device requires you to learn a few simple things, you just give up and say I can't do it? WOW! The average intelligence of the populace has decreased thanks to super easy UIs like iOS and Android. I showed a bunch of egghead engineering students how easy the device was to use and they got it, so could my 80 year old grandmother who got a brand new windows 8 laptop for xmas (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 UIs are identical). Forgive my rant ladies and gentlemen, you could say that I used to have a higher standard set for people and their will to learn.

That's the kind of thinking that's getting MS in trouble.
You may have a higher standard for people and their will to learn, but most people have a higher standard for the products companies make.
Their products should be easier to use, not more difficult.

So yes, Apple and Android have set the bar in 'ease of use' and intuitive controls.
MS ignored this and expected their customers to work at it a little harder.
Not going to happen. It's the way people are.
Blame computers and instant gratification products for this.

People want a pleasant and easy experience.
Not a reason to take a class.
Not a reason to read an operating manual.
Not a pain in the rear.

Sorry, this is just human nature.
And MS missed again...

I'd have to disagree with your statement: "...Apple and Android have set the bar in 'ease of use' and intuitive controls..."; that would have been true back when the two of them were battling it out, but after using WP7, I think Microsoft's set the bar now. My aunt and uncle (who are as far from tech as is humanly possible) recently bought Windows Phones; both had no issues picking it up. They did find - as with many phones - there's a slight learning curve, but once they got past it, they were golden (and happy). On the flip side, I'm sure there are many people that won't find WP/W8 intuitive at all (such as those still rocking feature phones ). However, to JayInMesa's point, how long did it take for you to learn to drive well?

Classes teaching the basics of iOS and Android do exist (I know Verizon offers several other courses, in addition to the basics). Don't assume that, just because something's intuitive to you, it's intuitive to everybody else.

[John2jio]

It has more to do with that Time Consuming mess called Win 8 .

This post has been edited by coastie65: 01 February 2013 - 05:32 AM
Reason for edit: Removed offensive material.

[Vertigo1]

I was one of those returns, but it was because of a touchscreen issue, and I am quite content with the one I am using now.

These things were designed with very little tolerance for error, so is it really a big surprise that the mass manufacturer used to create the initial supply happened to drop the ball a little on the construction side of things?

[txfeinbergs]

Red Ring of death?

[Krummu]

The surface rt can't even download my schools cisco support so having this tablet is a waste because I can't even connect to the internet

[Gergel70]

Quote

Learning curve... Less than 5 minutes of tinkering around and even using the tutorial online and I got it. Is this the way of things now? If the device requires you to learn a few simple things, you just give up and say I can't do it? WOW! The average intelligence of the populace has decreased thanks to super easy UIs like iOS and Android. I showed a bunch of egghead engineering students how easy the device was to use and they got it, so could my 80 year old grandmother who got a brand new windows 8 laptop for xmas (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 UIs are identical). Forgive my rant ladies and gentlemen, you could say that I used to have a higher standard set for people and their will to learn. That's the kind of thinking that's getting MS in trouble. You may have a higher standard for people and their will to learn, but most people have a higher standard for the products companies make. Their products should be easier to use, not more difficult. So yes, Apple and Android have set the bar in 'ease of use' and intuitive controls. MS ignored this and expected their customers to work at it a little harder. Not going to happen. It's the way people are. Blame computers and instant gratification products for this. People want a pleasant and easy experience. Not a reason to take a class. Not a reason to read an operating manual. Not a pain in the rear. Sorry, this is just human nature. And MS missed again...

I've said many times but one more time won't hurt, most people are inherently lazy. If Apple or Andriod came out after Windows RT, people would've learned RT and think Apple iOS and Android would be difficult to learn. And like someone else said in an earlier post, it is not difficult to learn and really should take not even half an hour to master all the gestures.

[AsokAsus]

The whole Windows 8/Windows RT/Metro UI ecosystem is already dead for all practical purposes, and each day brings another data point that shows that.

Tens of thousands of advance analysts and testers told Microsoft many months ago that Metro UI was a horrible interface, particularly on PCs, WHICH DO NOT NEED touchscreen interfaces in the first place. This latter fact was proved two years ago when vendors tried to convince consumers that the next "improved" laptop that they must buy had a touchscreen, and that whole push flew about as well as a lead balloon. And yet Microsoft obviously learned nothing from that fiasco.

And then you have a few hundred million enterprise and government users performing tasks like CAD/CAM design, accounting spreadsheets and auto title registration on their PCs. Did Microsoft REALLY believe these millions were going to lean over their desks thousands of times a day to inaccurately poke smudges on their vertical "touch-screen" monitors instead of just click, click, clicking their mouses 100 times faster and with 1/1000 the effort as screen-poking? What on earth was Microsoft thinking?

And to top this off, Microsoft really screwed the pooch by releasing Windows RT, Windows 8, Surface RT and Surface Pro all at about the same time, and then 100% confusing almost all non-technical consumers about what was what and what was the same and what was different among the bunch. As a consequence, weaknesses perceived in one of the bunch are indubitably linked to all of them in the minds of consumers since they were confused about what was what to start with. Thus if a consumer hates Windows 8 they're not going to want to try a Windows RT device and vice versa.

So, we have Windows 8 which is already (rightfully) the most hated operating system of all time, and Windows RT, which many are finding out is essentially useless, and you've got a half-baked version of Windows RT embodied by Metro UI in Windows 8. And then Microsoft spends 1.5 billion on a horribly confusing advertising campaign about all of this. You've pretty much got a situation as if Ford and Coke had introduced the Edsel and New Coke together in a 1.5 billion dollar joint ad campaign. How do you suppose that would have worked out?

And even worse for Microsoft, the world is moving at a MUCH faster pace than when Microsoft had it's last major disaster, namely Vista, in which they had three years to "finally get it right" when they released Windows 7, which was basically just Vista that worked.

Today, Microsoft doesn't have three years to get it right, they have six months. But they don't really even have six months because they botched things so badly to start with. Microsoft has already poisoned the well with their massive product-release and marketing incompetence, trying to stuff the hated Windows 8 down the throats of the masses and the enterprise when tens of thousands of advanced testers and analysts told them it would be a disaster, and producing over-priced, half-baked, me-too products like the Surface RT. Not to mention the execrable Metro UI which was ripped off from the 1996 AOL interface, only WITHOUT being the least intuitive!

In six months, the debate will be over. The evidence will be overwhelming by then that the Windows 8 ecosystem is the biggest disaster in the history of Microsoft, and furthermore, their "partners" will also have lost billions as well by uncritically gulping gigantic cups of the Windows 8 ecosystem Kool-Aid.

[AsokAsus]

So your theory about why so many people hate Metro UI is that people are stupid?

Is everyone who disliked the Edsel, New Coke, Microsoft Bob, Vista, Olestra, Qwikster, Zune, The Newton Apple, and Segway stupid also? Or were they all simply "afraid" of change?

[AsokAsus]

Quote

Learning curve... Less than 5 minutes of tinkering around and even using the tutorial online and I got it. Is this the way of things now? If the device requires you to learn a few simple things, you just give up and say I can't do it? WOW! The average intelligence of the populace has decreased thanks to super easy UIs like iOS and Android. I showed a bunch of egghead engineering students how easy the device was to use and they got it, so could my 80 year old grandmother who got a brand new windows 8 laptop for xmas (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 UIs are identical). Forgive my rant ladies and gentlemen, you could say that I used to have a higher standard set for people and their will to learn.

So your theory about why so many people hate Metro UI is that people are stupid?

Is everyone who disliked the Edsel, New Coke, Microsoft Bob, Vista, Olestra, Qwikster, Zune, The Newton Apple, and Segway stupid also? Or were they all simply "afraid" of change?

[OrionHunter]

Quote

. So yes, Apple and Android have set the bar in 'ease of use' and intuitive controls. MS ignored this and expected their customers to work at it a little harder.

The iPad is easy to use but you typically also need iTunes to use it. It becomes a much more difficult beast when you add that factor in.

[OrionHunter]

I don't think it's difficulty - it's just not that hard to use.
I don't think it's confusion over what it runs - it was for the most part only available from the Microsoft Store. They did have web sales but on Microsoft's site. The site is pretty clearly marked up and its not the place you'd find grandma looking for tablet. My experiences in the two stores I visit where I live and where I work have all been very positive.

My guess- one it was a gift. Two, bad press; nobody likes to be on the losing team. Read the press they make you feel like a total loser for having a Surface.

I'll just add, I love mine. I've run mobile technology before, most useful tablet I've owned (and I have gone through pretty much all of the major ones other than the Nexus 10).

[WinMac]

Just like the HP Touchpad I picked up for $150.00 after it got cut I soon will be able to pick up a RT for around the same price.

For the TouchPad I installed droid 2.3 on it, lots of fun! Hope to have 4.0 installed soon.

For the Surface RT no problem, it should be a winner...

What would Steve Ballmer do when he see's the Surface RT running Android? Maybe I'll get him to sign it!

[brainout]

OrionHunter, on 31 January 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I don't think it's difficulty - it's just not that hard to use.
I don't think it's confusion over what it runs - it was for the most part only available from the Microsoft Store. They did have web sales but on Microsoft's site. The site is pretty clearly marked up and its not the place you'd find grandma looking for tablet. My experiences in the two stores I visit where I live and where I work have all been very positive.

My guess- one it was a gift. Two, bad press; nobody likes to be on the losing team. Read the press they make you feel like a total loser for having a Surface.

I'll just add, I love mine. I've run mobile technology before, most useful tablet I've owned (and I have gone through pretty much all of the major ones other than the Nexus 10).

You would do MS and all of us a favor it you would clearly explain what makes the RT, the 'most useful tablet I've owned'. I keep on trying to find ONE POSITIVE THING I can say about Win8 and/or Surface. WhatsThatMean here in the forum claimed he had good speech and handwriting recognition and could run his work/home computer from his RT. So, have you experienced that, too? Or, what makes it worth the exorbitant price for what can't even qualify as a true tablet? Because, from what I can tell, he's the only person on the internet who can make the RT do what he claimed. EVERYONE else reports no specific value gained. Those three features he reported should be front-page news, if anyone in the computer press had the same luck. A journalist would KILL to get such features working; so too, a stockbroker, lawyer, any peripatetic professional, any doctor. I would kill to get them, myself. Speech recognition is very trainable in Win7. Is it better in Win8? WHY is there no crowd of happy customers touting the same features as WhatsThatMean -- and I'm sure he wasn't making up what he claimed?

I honestly don't understand why the Board of Directors didn't fire the senior management team of MS a year ago. I've lost six months of my life to analyzing this question of whether Win8, whether tablet, what kind of upgrade versus my standard XP deployment, etc. And it's all been a bust.

This post has been edited by brainout: 31 January 2013 - 06:05 PM