[linuxrants7xpg]

waldojim, on 11 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Linux is a HOBBY OS, made by people who simply enjoy writing code...

Let's not get carried away. Linux is much more than a "hobby os", just like Windows is more than a glorified XBox.

[waldojim]

linuxrants7xpg, on 11 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

waldojim, on 11 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Linux is a HOBBY OS, made by people who simply enjoy writing code...

Let's not get carried away. Linux is much more than a "hobby os", just like Windows is more than a glorified XBox.

When comes right down to the basics though, Linux was, and is still created and maintained primarily by people who have a passion for code. Call them hobbyist, or whatever the term of choice is... but that is the truth in the end. There is a great deal of money poured in from companies like Canonical, but they are in it for them only. They could care less about the rest of the community (generally speaking). SuSE was an exception (pre-Novel), as was RedHat.

Microsoft's OS was a paid project from the beginning, with clear roadmaps, and development structure. This results in very different development.

I wasn't trying to take anything away from Linux per say, more pointing out that it can hardly be expected that Linux would hold a users hand, when most of the developers are of the mindset that people should actually learn something...

[waldojim]

LFS has some darned tight requirements for a 'release' that doesn't even hook you up with a live disk... they basically state you need a current running copy of Linux with a list of necessary packages, and a very specific kernel version, then tell you to start building the system. I hate to say it, but Gentoo seems far more thought out in this regard, at least providing a working session to build from.

[brainout]

linuxrants7xpg, on 11 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

waldojim, on 11 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

Linux is a HOBBY OS, made by people who simply enjoy writing code...

Let's not get carried away. Linux is much more than a "hobby os", just like Windows is more than a glorified XBox.

No, it's not a hobby OS. But after more tinkering I learned something important: ALL the latest distros are emulating Windows 8, hiding the system tools and other things which makes rescuing from Windows crashes so important.

• In the latest version of Mint 14 (for there are several 14's, I learned that the hard way), you cannot access your own hard drives, even if you are signed in as root.
• Same, for Fedora 18 and Ubuntu 13.04. They won't let you even mount the drives from the GUI. Imagine how ticked off your average joe will be, when he 'tries' one of these distros to see if he wants to install it?
• So what's the point of using Linux, now? Not much.
• If you're hyper-anal about internet attacks, you can use it to surf the internet. But that's about it.
• Mint 14's VLC player, won't play DVDs. Fedora doesn't even provide one. Well, actually it does, BUT YOU CANNOT SEE IT IN THE GUI. Which means, you have to access it from the command line? Huh? Ubuntu, same problem.
• You can't delete the pre-installed programs to free up space, EVEN AS ROOT.
• The Fedora 18 interface is now much like Ubuntu's disgusting 13.04, and similarly disorganized in its package listing. And these newer versions are VERY BUGGY.
• Programs don't work, you have to unplug the computer often (10 times, in the last 24 hours, whether Fedora, Mint, or Ubuntu, on different machines).

This is just like the old DOS freeware days. I'm sorry, but unless someone commercializes Linux for the desktop like asiafish here in the forum had posted (the 'Will Linux Take off' thread'), Linux NOW will alienate users from ever trying it. Maybe not every distro, but certainly these three. For now, the trend is to HIDE EVERYTHING FROM THE USER, just like Windows 8. If you want to get anything useful done, you have to resort to command-line stuff in either platform.

I'm not willing to become an IT person to use Linux or Win8. The older versions were much more useful, and I'm making sticks of them now (well, hopefully, have to test the sticks after the downloads). Older Windows and Older Linux are better, seems the trend. I'm really disappointed. Don't they pay attention to user complaints against Windows 8? So why are they making the same mistakes?

Am right now formatting Linux Mint Debian on a stick (201204 version) to see if it offers any hope. If not, then will try the earlier versions. Will probably install Fedora 17 on hard drive, it's the most malleable, so far. Want to do that with Debian, Zorin 6 (but not on my nVidia laptop), and one of the version 14's of Mint, which is no longer available for download (but I have it on CD from Prizix). But not, anytime soon. There are still some important functions only Linux can do, but it's not ready for primetime on the desktop, sorry. It COULD be, but the trend away from user-friendliness will kill it.

What a learning curve and what a window into the future. Am really sure now, that the four extra copies of XP Pro I bought, will prove useful. You can rarely find them, now: the few copies left in Amazon now, are selling for the same or twice what I paid for each copy, only a few months ago. Back when XP came out a decade ago, it was the same price as I paid a few months back, $125 (System Builder), and $150 (full retail version). So you see: I'm not the only one who recognizes that sticking with XP is a good thing.

I wish Linux well, and will keep on trying to figure out how to make good on it; but the current versions are retrogressions, just as Win8 is a retrogression.

This post has been edited by brainout: 12 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

[brainout]

UPDATE on Linux Mint Debian 201204. It's more flexible, and thankfully uses the Mate Desktop; but I don't know if its programs work well, yet. Just spent the time between my last post and now, trying to GUESS AT how to bypass its restrictions. I used terminal and sudo su passwd (then typed password twice, which you can't see onscreen), then exit twice, which is the normal Linux procedure. I had to first get into mint after it auto-boots, to even do that. Then set up 'mint' (the default user name) as Administrator, with a password. Which, it didn't remember on reboot. What a waste of time; even the pictures I transferred to the home pictures directory last session, were not stored. So this one isn't to be trusted, either.

So Linux is meant to be difficult to run, in the name of 'protection'; at least, the newer versions; and I'm sure it really can run, if you're a Linux geek; you have to customize it to each machine or something. Which explains why it runs enterprise. It's hard to use, so hard to hack, and is tempermental, requiring extensive tweaks for the particular stuff you're using (whether hardware or software). The 'packages' are but partial things you must tweak to your preference. And that's fine. Always room for that.

But for the rest of us consumers and small business, the decision is bigger: do we want to commit to Linux, which means BECOMING a Linux geek, in order to do the same things as we can do in Windows -- just to get away from, Windows 8? Thanks, but no thanks. If it's this hard to guess at and use on a stick, then I don't want to install it to my hard drive.

So far, only Fedora 17 is worth installing to hard drive. Will keep on trying to find earlier Linux versions which are less tyrannical.

[brainout]

ANOTHER UPDATE on Linux Mint Debian. Okay, I've run through it three times now. It retains nothing, is unbelievably buggy. However, you can run a non-persistent version on a USB stick that boots. The pendrivelinux.com USB creator which claims to create persistence, does not. But it does format the stick such that LMD thinks it has 6 GB of room. Problem is, you can't STORE your changes to any files; they are in effect read only. You are fooled into thinking you did change something during a session. So I copied a bunch of pictures, and it SEEMED to allow that. But on reboot, were they in the home/pictures folder? NO! Same problem with Ubuntu 13.04 and 12.10. Bear in mind, these problems are in downloads directly from those original Linux distro websites. Not, from third parties. So they clearly aren't testing what they do, prior to release. Cheap labor of the frustrated users.

Back to LMD. Get this: when you change software packages or delete packages, the 1 GB 'free space' (it only reads up to 6GB of a stick) -- anything you delete, DELETES FREE SPACE of the same amount. Just the opposite of what's supposed to happen. So, when I removed the NOT WORKING VLC Player, it deleted from that 1 GB, the same amount as the space from the player, so I had LESS free space after deletion, than before. But when I deleted some of the pictures I transferred from my hard drive to my mint/home/pictures folder, it freed up space.

Doesn't anyone do quality control on this stuff before releasing it?

And of course, during a session if you log out and sign in as a user you created, it doesn't work in GUI. If you reboot, it crashes. If you shut down, it crashes. I'm trying to figure out how to make a change and then shut down so it won't crash. I have a lot of machines to test it on, from Pentium IV to i7 quad and even i5 quad third gen. Really bizarre. I wonder if it's just made so that other people can tweak it; unfinished, really designed to be run from the command line. This is not a finished product.

Regular Mint is the same, but Ubuntu-based. Ubuntu has the same problems. Now that I think about it, maybe Fedora has the same problem. I deleted a ton of packages which were bloatware, and somehow always ended up with less space. Will retest. For what it's worth, for testing I'm using two Dell laptops with i7 and i5, and two Dell Optiplexes with Core 2 Duo. Only the i5 has an nVidia card. They are supposed to be compatible with Linux.

This post has been edited by brainout: 12 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

[waldojim]

brainout, on 12 February 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

ANOTHER UPDATE on Linux Mint Debian. Okay, I've run through it three times now. It retains nothing, is unbelievably buggy. However, you can run a non-persistent version on a USB stick that boots. The pendrivelinux.com USB creator which claims to create persistence, does not. But it does format the stick such that LMD thinks it has 6 GB of room. Problem is, you can't STORE your changes to any files; they are in effect read only. You are fooled into thinking you did change something during a session. So I copied a bunch of pictures, and it SEEMED to allow that. But on reboot, were they in the home/pictures folder? NO! Same problem with Ubuntu 13.04 and 12.10. Bear in mind, these problems are in downloads directly from those original Linux distro websites. Not, from third parties. So they clearly aren't testing what they do, prior to release. Cheap labor of the frustrated users.

Back to LMD. Get this: when you change software packages or delete packages, the 1 GB 'free space' (it only reads up to 6GB of a stick) -- anything you delete, DELETES FREE SPACE of the same amount. Just the opposite of what's supposed to happen. So, when I removed the NOT WORKING VLC Player, it deleted from that 1 GB, the same amount as the space from the player, so I had LESS free space after deletion, than before. But when I deleted some of the pictures I transferred from my hard drive to my mint/home/pictures folder, it freed up space.

Doesn't anyone do quality control on this stuff before releasing it?

And of course, during a session if you log out and sign in as a user you created, it doesn't work in GUI. If you reboot, it crashes. If you shut down, it crashes. I'm trying to figure out how to make a change and then shut down so it won't crash. I have a lot of machines to test it on, from Pentium IV to i7 quad and even i5 quad third gen. Really bizarre. I wonder if it's just made so that other people can tweak it; unfinished, really designed to be run from the command line. This is not a finished product.

Regular Mint is the same, but Ubuntu-based. Ubuntu has the same problems. Now that I think about it, maybe Fedora has the same problem. I deleted a ton of packages which were bloatware, and somehow always ended up with less space. Will retest. For what it's worth, for testing I'm using two Dell laptops with i7 and i5, and two Dell Optiplexes with Core 2 Duo. Only the i5 has an nVidia card. They are supposed to be compatible with Linux.

I gave you the solution to this. DON'T USE THE PENDRIVE SOFTWARE.

Install Linux to the USB drive like you would a normal hard drive!

[brainout]

Well, I finally got signed into Ubuntu One via Linux. Only took two hours wrestling with the SignUp at Ubuntu One. Weirdest experience I've ever had. Wanted to sign in to praise Xfe file manager, which at that time was working. But since every step along the way was met with one weird obstacle or another, I'm not sure Ubuntu will 'remember' anything I've done in this session.

Basically, Xfe File manager lets you see the free space all the time. When I first used it, I could see all my devices at the same time, too, but then Ubuntu went wonky and now all I can see is the root directory, though I didn't change anything.

Meanwhile, trying to sign in after signup took well over an hour, as it kept on failing with one error reported after the next, too many to count.

Yeah. This isn't ready for prime-time, unless you live in the terminal.

But one good thing came out of this: there IS persistence using Ubuntu's own pendrivelinux.com program, the full balance of the stick is now recognized, no longer limited to a 4 GB barrier. But only AFTER you create an account which you can't do until AFTER you do the sudo su thing with root password, etc. in a terminal. No instructions or hints or warnings about this, of course.

This is exactly the reason I wanted to avoid Win8. But at least it has a sane file manager. So now back to see if Xfe will suddenly be able to recognize all the attached drives, which two hours ago were recognized and haven't changed since.

Now if only I could change the Ubuntu colors (i.e., that horrid orange select-text background).

This post has been edited by brainout: 12 February 2013 - 09:47 PM

[brainout]

brainout, on 12 February 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Well, I finally got signed into Ubuntu One via Linux. Only took two hours wrestling with the SignUp at Ubuntu One. Weirdest experience I've ever had. Wanted to sign in to praise Xfe file manager, which at that time was working. But since every step along the way was met with one weird obstacle or another, I'm not sure Ubuntu will 'remember' anything I've done in this session.

Basically, Xfe File manager lets you see the free space all the time. When I first used it, I could see all my devices at the same time, too, but then Ubuntu went wonky and now all I can see is the root directory, though I didn't change anything.

Meanwhile, trying to sign in after signup took well over an hour, as it kept on failing with one error reported after the next, too many to count.

Yeah. This isn't ready for prime-time, unless you live in the terminal.

But one good thing came out of this: there IS persistence using Ubuntu's own pendrivelinux.com program, the full balance of the stick is now recognized, no longer limited to a 4 GB barrier. But only AFTER you create an account which you can't do until AFTER you do the sudo su thing with root password, etc. in a terminal. No instructions or hints or warnings about this, of course.

This is exactly the reason I wanted to avoid Win8. But at least it has a sane file manager. So now back to see if Xfe will suddenly be able to recognize all the attached drives, which two hours ago were recognized and haven't changed since.

Now if only I could change the Ubuntu colors (i.e., that horrid orange select-text background).

Correction to strikeout: the program to make the stick persistent, is Unetbootin from sourceforge . The pendrivelinux.com program works on Mint 13 very well. Both will recognize persistence on your stick up to 4 GB (so about 6GB, including the programs themselves). So be sure never to use your home folder for the docs, etc. that you make, so you'll always have room for more programs and updates. Instead, partition the stick using GParted for the excess (format it as NTFS, so Windows can read the files, too).

You can tell the excess versus the amount Linux recognizes as belonging to itself, in the sidebar. Look for something like 'LIVE' and the size. That is a caspar partition, a kind of file which instructs Linux to treat X amount of the stick as belonging to the OS. The size in both Ubuntu and Mint is about 3.7 or even 4.3 GB. So add that to the space taken up by the programs and folders within Linux. To find how how much space that is, go to the root directory, click on the root folder and then hit Control-A, then right-click and hit 'Properties', wait for it to calculate the total size. Add that to the left-pane's 'LIVE' capacity (3.7 or 4.3, in Ubuntu or Mint), to know what's the limit for partitioning the remainder of your stick.

See my post about Mint 13 (not 14, which is worse) in 'Linux Strengths' thread, for more info.

This post has been edited by brainout: 13 February 2013 - 08:52 AM