[slivers7]

I ran into a weird fix, and I'm really unsure what I can do to salvage the situation.I'm running Windows 98SE (yes, still), on my primary hard drive (40GB), and I have a secondary hard drive where I store the bulk of my files (250GB). Both are on FAT32.Two days back, for no apparant reason at all (no program-installing, or hardware upgrade, etc), one of the main folders on the secondary drive (around 40GB of content) with a number of sub-folders in it had all it's sub-folders' pathnames garbled, and I was unable to access any of its content. The number of existing sub-folders also appears to be different, and there were a number of large rubbishly-named files.Now, for some weird reason, most likely due to the size, Windows 98SE refuses to run scandisk on this secondary hard disk, always quoting lack of memory. It's been like that ever since I used this secondary hard disk, and it always worked fine, so I never had any reason to complain, until now. So I figured on pressing the reset button and letting the default Windows restart scandisk auto-run itself, as it usually works despite the normal limitation. What happened was, it gave a error message about a long filename once, recommending the use of scandisk in Windows mode to fix it, and finished with no other errors. When I got back to Windows, though, all the garbled folders and files were gone. I don't mean fixed, but they were gone as though they'd been wiped out. The space used became 105GB from around 136GB.I happen to have a 3rd-party file recovery program for recovering accidentally deleted files, but when I try using it, it gives a drive analysis error, and refuses to work on this drive. I'm really not sure of what else can be done to save my files. As yet, none of the other files have been affected, but I'm rather uncertain if my next remedy would cause more damage instead. Does anyone have similar experiences, or know how to handle something like this?

[rgreen4]

I hope this is not the machine you have on the internet, and I also hope this is not the only machine you have.This is either going to be relatively easy and inexpensive, of difficult and expensive. What I am afraid you have is either a FAT (file allocation table) problem, or a failing HD. For either one the best thing to do until you have all the materials assembled, is to stop useing the machine and expecially the HD.The most probable cause is that you have a sector on the hard drive that has gone bad, and it created the "scrambled" FAT. When you forced an uexpected reboot and scan, it marked that sector as bad, and it just cascaded down that everything in that directory was not accessible.The cheaper attempt to recover the data, involves hooking up a third drive to the machine (it only needs to be hooked up to the cables, not physically installed, if you have a lack of space) and a ghosting or cloning program. Ghost 2001, or 2003 should work fine if you have access to one of those, another option is Acronis True Image 10. In creating the clone you would clone the 250 onto a new HD of adequate size to take all fthe files. This may work, and is worth the shot, you will need a new drive anyway.The second more expensive option is to send the drive out to a data recovery firm to recover the files. Depending on the value of the files and the presence or lack of a backup, would be the basis of your decision.If there existed a current Backup, file recovery would be a moot point. I joined the Data Loss club in '84 when I scrambled a FAT table in DOS. In all likelyhood, you have lost at least some data.The reason I could not recommed connecting a Win98 machine to the internet with data on the machine, is that 98 is no longer supported by MS and there are no security updates coming. These machines will be at more and more risk as time passes.Even if you manage to recover the data, and you would think you could reformat the drive and put the data back, once a drive starts this, it's not too much longer before it's history.

[mphenterprises]

...to add to what RGreen stated......one way or another, you are about to learn a valuable and potential expensive lesson...BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP :unsure

[slivers7]

Oh dear... and I had it for less than a year, too.Is there any freeware cloning program that's reliable? I suppose I'll have to get a large external hard drive for backup purposes. I currently have Norton Systemworks 2005. Is there anything on it that would help?Probably in the end I'll need both the extra harddisk and cloning software. Supposing I have both, what next? Will running the cloning program allow me to recover all of my data as it was? Or is it all lost one way or another?In the meantime, will it be okay to use the machine so long as I don't do anything to the secondary drive? I still have a good bit left on the main drive for storage purposes. Or is it best that I don't use the machine at all until I'm ready to backup?

[slivers7]

I'd also like to ask if programs such as HDD Regenerator and SpinRite are able to solve my problems. They sound like they should, but does anyone have experience with using them?

Lastly, pardon me for asking, but is it possible to use a NTFS secondary hard disk with Windows 98SE on a FAT32 main hard disk?

[smax013]

slivers7 said:

I'd also like to ask if programs such as HDD Regenerator and SpinRite are able to solve my problems. They sound like they should, but does anyone have experience with using them?


Lastly, pardon me for asking, but is it possible to use a NTFS secondary hard disk with Windows 98SE on a FAT32 main hard disk?

A program like SpinRite or Data Rescue PC might work if the problem is truly something like a messed up FAT or drive index. Data Recue PC has a demo that you can down load to se if it believes it can get to your files or not...you have to actually buy it to actually try to recover the files. A friend used it to recover files from a drive that was semi-hosed.

If that does not work (or the cloning suggestion that rgreen suggested does not work), then if you REALLY need the files back, then you might want to sent it to a data/drive recovery place like DriveSavers...but be prepared to pay a significant chunk of change. Such drive recovery services are typiclly not cheap. But, the advantage of someone like DriveSavers is that they can recover stuff off of drives that are physically damaged. If needed, they will take the drive apart in a clean room to get directly at the drive platters I believe.

[JTS8]

~39874] is right. Software might work but only in some situations. I had something similar happen to me. Not knowing what I was doing I ran some free software and it made things worse. Luckily the guys at [CBL data recovery were able to recover my data. If you're not sure what you're doing take it to a professional and get a free diagnostic. Best of luck.

[mphenterprises]

Hi Slivers7. I am known as a direct and to-the-point person. To be honest, I think you are holding on to false hope. You are asking if you can use a corrupted hard drive as a main drive which has an out-dated Operating System installed within it. If this drive fails for any reason, you could run the risk of affecting every hardware component within your computer.

Using Windows 98 as your Operating System to activity play around on the internet is, well, to paint a very vivid picture, having sex without a condom. (My apologizes if I offended anyone.) You are taking a change with an Operating System that is not only out-dated but not supported, even by Microsoft itself. The likelihood of your computer catching a virus is astronomically higher running Windows 98 than with running anything else.

My advice, cut your losses and either:
- Upgrade your Operating System
- Try a new Operating System like Linux

[slivers7]

Hmmm, lotsa comments, thanks, all! I believe there are two issues that have been talked about (is that right?).


The main is of course that I want to recover my lost data, and put it and everything on my secondary hard drive onto a backup external hard drive. Unconfirmed, but likely cause is a failing hard drive, as I've observed some more files in another folder going scrambled. As yet, nothing cranky has been going on in my main drive, which is why a virus seems unlikely. An external backup drive seems essential, the rest is probably trying to recover the data, which I'm not so sure of. How does cloning software like Norton Ghost work in such cases, assuming the problem is a scrambled FAT32 system? Will using it render the recovery of all my files lost due to the scambled FAT32 system, or will I still have to resort to another data recovery program? If so, what then should I use? (Ok, probably I should look for those demos first.) Worse case scenario seems to be a visit to a data recovery service... what are the typical charges like, anyways?


The other seems to be that I'm still using something like Windows 98SE. Well, I suppose all I've got going for that is that I've tried XP and the like, and didn't like them. Haven't gotten around to Vista yet, though I hope it changes my mind. I don't do much surfing, since most of the time I just play games and do a bit of work on my machine. Well, mostly play games, just non-online types, too. So, I'm mostly comfortable. BTW, may I ask (since I detested XP mainly for the activation nonsense, as I have a habit of upgrading hard drives pretty often), is there a way to do something like make a backup image of an activated drive, then if I change my drive to a new one, or format it, load it back as an activated drive? Back when I started trying XP, and I had to keep calling up regarding the activation key, I got so fedup I went back to 98 and never touched XP again. So if there's a way to just activate once and be done with it, I'm all for it. Hmmm, did they change the activation feature for Vista? I'd place a bet on no...


So, now, I suppose I'm asking for advice on:

-External hard drive, reliable brand, ~300GB, priority on data transfer rate, self-sufficient cooling, blah blah
-Best data drive cloning program
-Best data recovery software
-Any methods to minimise hassle from activation keys and the like; is there even any?

That's about it. Oh, and, how does Vista feel like? Just asking for a general feel about it...

[mphenterprises]

Hi Slivers. I will try to answer your questions as best as I can:

-External hard drive, reliable brand, ~300GB, priority on data transfer rate, self-sufficient cooling, blah blah

I normally do not give suggestions on hardware components; however, for external drives, the most recommended manufacturers are Western Digital, Seagate, and Maxtor. I believe, I could be mistaken, but I believe Maxtor bought Seagate but I think the Maxtor name is still available.


-Best data drive cloning program

I will leave this one up to the other members. I am not strong on cloning programs


-Best data recovery software

There is no such thing as the "best data recovery program." All data recovery is based on chance. When a file is deleted, it is not truly gone until another file takes its place in that same sector of the hard drive. If the drive is corrupted, the chances of recovering data is lessened. All recovery programs will claim that they can recover data. They will also put a small disclaimer saying that data recovery is not guaranteed.

You can also try to go to a company who specialize in data recovery. However, you are looking at spending at least $200-$300 to get this data recovered. Again, they will also say there is no guarantee.


-Any methods to minimise hassle from activation keys and the like; is there even any?

I am not sure what you mean by this. On a successful installation, you should never have to re-enter your activation or Product Key. Even if the Product Key was invalid, you would not be able to complete an installation of an Operating System. If you clone the drive and then swap at the hard drives, I believe you still should not have to re-enter your Product Key. Again, I am not strong on cloning so I will defer this to the other members of the forums.

Also, I am just about to install Windows Vista; however, RGreen is the Vista guru of the forum.

[rgreen4]

I wondered why my ears were burning. If I am the Vista GURU, we are all in trouble. However, I have learned a lot, just by reading a book and researching on my machine to answer questions.
I will cut to the chase - replacing a hard drive, either with XP or with Vista, is NOT supposed to trigger an activation problem. Now, if you reinstalled XP several times a week, it might because of the activity. The check is based on a number of factors that have changed, such as memory, hard drive, and installed cards within a short time frame, I believe it's 30 days. A CPU or a motherboard change could possibly trigger an activation problem, and a change of MB and CPU most certainly will. As there have been many comments in older posts on just this.
Reinstalling an OEM version of XP after a MB and CPU change will require the blessing of MS, and the reinstallation of an OEM version of Vista after a MB and CPU change will probably require divine intervention. Microsoft has demonstrated several times they consider this a new machine and prohibit moving an OEM Vista installation to a new machine - period. No ands, ifs and buts. If you are moving to XP, you would need an upgrade disk and the 98 disc to install when the upgrade asks for it when doing a clean install. If you are moving to Vista, you can use an upgrade disc to do a clean install without the XP or 98 disc.
You can avoid the reinstallation hassle by cloning the OS disc. There is no illegal copying issue, because if you try to boot a second machine off a clone made on the first machine, when the OS reads the different MB and CPU signature, it blue screens.
Cloning or "Ghosting" is a technique I have used for over a decade. Originally, just to avoid reinstalling all the programs when upgrading a HD in Windows 3.1. I later started using it to "back up" a drive by cloning the drive, putting the "master" away and using the "operating" drive. I still do that. I started with Ghost when you had to copy the write version onto one diskette and the read version on another diskette. The latest functional version I had was 2003, and when my new machine arrived last fall with XP MCE, it wouldn't even load, even though it ran on my XP Pro machine right next to it. To make a long story short, Symantec had not kept up with the controller chips and even Ghost 10 didn't work right. Ghost is now off the consumer market. I shifted to Acronis True Image 10, which I have had good luck with on the new machine. Cloning makes an image of a drive, and some may call it imaging, but Enterprise customers of MS are authorized to image, where by they do one install, image it to a DVD and then install that image to every machine they support. They pay an annual license fee to MS based on the number of installed machines.
If you do a cold reinstallation of XP or Vista, you would have to re-enter the COA. If you do a repair with either, you should not be required to re-enter the COA. If you try to install with an improper COA, it will not install. The COA must match the version (Home or Pro) of the OS and the type (full, upgrade or OEM).
Unlike Ghost, you can clone a drive with Acronis using an external USB connected enclosure (required for most notebooks), and you can clone to a smaller HD (as long as there is adequte room). Cloning copies the data sector by sector, hidden, system and all other files. I have seen the results of a HD that displayed no folders at all when connected to an XP machine, yet when cloned (with the Enterprise version of Ghost) restored all the files on the drive. The individual who did this for a charitable organization did not expect to recover all, but said he knew he should be able to recover most.
This does require that the drive be mechanically and electrically sound. I will reiterate again, since you said you are continuing to lose folder, CEASE USE OF THE DRIVE. When you have all the tools and software, and drives assembled to do what you want, boot it one last time. You may be doing more and more damage to the drive, and the next time you boot it may be the last.

[slivers7]

Some updates on my situation...

I ran the demo of HDD Regenerator, but after it finished its 3-day scan, it reported 0 bad sectors on the hard drive (duh!!), so I went back to trying some of the Norton stuff. The Disk Doctor reported only some errors to do with "overly-long filename entries" in the directory structure, which leads me to conclude that either I got some virus from wonderland, or it had something to do with the power failure some time back. My guess is still not-a-virus, but to play safe, may I ask if there's some freeware virus scan or similar around now, since currently, the Norton programs are also giving me some nonsense with activation, and only allows me to run simple utilities off the CD...

May I also ask about this situation: If I get an external hard disk that uses NTFS (most likely), and I try to clone my FAT32 drive (with the directory structure errors) using Acronis True Image, will it clone successfully? If so, will cloning actually attempt to restore the errors in the directory structure, or do I have to look somewhere else for that again? Is there a program around that can help me with this? I'm asking because Norton Disk Doctor's version of repairing is to delete off the "overly-long filename entries", which seems like trouble to me... Again, any advice on what to do is welcome.

And thanks, for the info on Windows activation. So, with the exception of the motherboard, minor hardware system upgrades over an extended period of time won't actually trigger re-activation cues, is that right? That also means no more major overhauls... Thus, if I do only a hard drive change, or a RAM change at one time, there won't be any problems; but if I do it a number of times because I'm fickle-minded (my family has a couple of PCs, and we sometimes swap bits around when upgrading), it'll probably go bug-eyed on me. sigh The bane of Dad's home-grown workshop...

Oh yes, some more things to round up. Since there weren't any bad sectors found on my hard drive, does it actually mean that it wasn't a failing hard drive after all? I'm probably going to get a backup drive regardless, but if it wasn't a failing hard drive, I might keep on using it with a bit more impunity. Until I scream at the next error, anyways!

I think I haven't said this yet, so, thanks, everyone, for the kind advice!

BTW, is there something like a demo version of Acronis True Image, or similar? I really don't want to waste cash on something that's of no help now, since my last pay is quite overdue already...

[rgreen4]

Most external HD's I have encountered have a FAT32 because then it can be read by all Windows OS's. Although 2K, XP & Vista require NTFS on the boot drive they require it only on the boot drive. They will not, however, format in a FAT32 structure.

As for repairing the directory structure, I do not know. I have never encountered this situation, but the individual who did this, the IT manager at a major corporation, did not indicate any problems. But remember, every case is unique.

On windows activation, only swaps of drive 0, the boot drive would be counted. I have had occasion during testing to swap the boot drive of a system out several times over the course of 24 hours and have never encountered a problem. In fact, I have never actually heard of someone who had a problem in this regards. There was a post some months back from an individual who had sent his Vista laptop in on warranty claim and they replaced the MB and CPU. He complained about having to purchase a new copy of Vista because MS consisidered it a new computer trying to be activated with the same OEM COA. To the system, a new MB signature and a new CPU signature would register as a new computer. I have bumped the memory of my older desktop up twice, from 512MB to 1GB to 2GB and never had a problem. That's my XP machine but the rules are the same.

When a scan encounters a bad sector, it marks it that way in the FAT or MBR and then never reads it again. In the old format days you would notice a bad sector when you watch it format and report the sector number and it would hang for about 5-10 seconds and then go on. The OS never paused, and chkdsk never paused because it had already been marked.

Software that does cloning is not common. Google disk ghosting software and you get a number of references including Symantec and Acronis. There are some shareware and free varities listed, but I am not in a position to recommend them or to warn against individual ones. They may or may not work, I just don't know.