[feverhost]

RastaMan has a good point, and maybe a round about way it should be completed as, stating the general population of people by things that are hyped. The iPod is majorly hyped, therefore a lot of people buy them. My little girl who is "so non-tech" wants an iPod? I asked her, "Why do you want an iPod?" The answer "well my friend has one".. ofcourse.. and "I heard they are cool".. from where? "On the TV".

Windows is very much hyped. Everyone knows about Windows. so much they don't need to "gun ho" advertise like Apple does for the iPods. Just about everyone knows Microsoft. And just about everyone uses Microsoft. In the real world the "non-tech" world, most people are perfectly happy with this Windows machines. Just as most Mac users are perfectly happy with their OS.

People buy products like iPods, Windows, XPS Laptops because people know Apple, Microsoft, and Dell. Its basically that simple...

[Scortch]

Ihatewondowsvista,

I guess I touched a nerve somewhere. Obviously you felt like I was talking to you. If the shoe fits, so be it but I think you need to go back and reread what I really said. Someone is a bit sensitive for no reason. It has never been about marching to a beat of a drum, so to speak.

If you are talking about the comment that people that go to apple to get a PC generally don't know what they are doing, then it's the truth but, so are the ones that go to Dell, HP and so on. That doesn't mean they are dumb because they go to these places to get computers, they are just uninformed consumers for the most part. That doesn't mean that people that do know what they are do not go there.

Looks like you missed my dissatisfaction with Vista too. We aren't talking about laptops, never have. That's a whole different ballgame.

There are a lot of people that are not computer savvy by a long shot that are getting ripped off. That's my main point in all of this. Companies taking advantage of uninformed consumers.

[IhateWindowsVista]

Mr. Scortch -

The truth is - I will always be an Apple user. It is what I am. I started out on pre Windows IBM DOS. I had to learn basic computer language to adjust to the world which evolved in the '80's. I needed a place for my creativity to go...

Let's start at the beginning: When I met Steve Wozniack in the late '70's (let us go into the way-back machine) I was working in a goldsmith shop in Claremont CA - He and some guy he knew, Steve Jobs, came into my space and tried to talk me into going all fancy and told me that there was a new thing called a computer, it was going to revolutionize the world and I should get on board.... they told me I would benefit from having a "personal computer" keep track of my business. That is the God's honest truth. Those guys came to my business and tried to convince me that the future was going to be in computers. I, of course.... (being the savvy genius that I was) laughed.

I was not a real business person but I did work and I did have to keep track of what I did.... I became a TV writer in the late '80's. I was using the first real Mac computer. I had to fight an uphill battle with the TV industry who was, at that time, IBM-PC based. I was one of the first Apple users who bucked the system. I screamed about how I could create graphics on this silly box and how the future of the creative biz was going to be using Mac's.. I used the first version of Illustrator - I mean I was right out of the box with zero people in front of me on the ground using that software. I had no one telling me how to use a fairly complex software program but I was captivated. Then came Photoshop. I was hooked.

If you can tell me, Scortch, that Apple Computers had no creative input, after I tell you my own story... I want to her it. I learned Photoshop when Adobe created it only for Apple. It became an industry standard. Everyone copied it.

I have used Mac/Apple software and hardware through the computer revolution.

Us computer users are a new breed of people. I have watched this process from its early years... I am talking about from the '70's (I was born on '57)

Scortch- You need to understand that there is room for alternate platforms. Creative people have a real place. We are the people who breath life into the world as it is. I am not a sophisticated computer builder --- I am however a sophisticated user.

I understand the need for a PC.

We all need an accountant.

We all need a lawyer.

..........


But we all need to create and that is where us creative types become important.

Peae

[RastaMon]

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If you are talking about the comment that people that go to apple to get a PC generally don't know what they are doing, then it's the truth but, so are the ones that go to Dell, HP and so on. That doesn't mean they are dumb because they go to these places to get computers, they are just uninformed consumers for the most part.

Or they are informed consumers who value their own time, and can't be bothered to piece together a machine that will have no tech support and may not even save them any money.

The most computer/tech savvy person I know (from a group that includes IT pros and Computer Science professors with advanced degrees in CS and previous employers such as Intel and Microsoft) does not build his new PCs from scratch. He buys systems from HP, Dell, etc; and (sometimes) upgrades them himself. If he could save money (without having to spend excessive time) building from scratch, he would. (Note that these are his "tinkering machines," Windows boxes that offer him inevitable problems to fix, problems his Macs do not often offer.) The fact is, it costs him the least to start with prebuilt boxes.

In the early nineties, it was a given that one could build their own PC for less than a prebuilt box cost. One only needed to read a copy of Computer Shopper to find sources for the components. Then, the prices of the prebuilts started dropping, forcing many smaller companies out of business because they couldn't make a profit at competitive prices. The companies that remained found their profit not in mark up from the retail prices of the individual components, but in the markup from the low sub-wholesale prices of the individual components that their new found buying power offered. This allowed them to offer prebuilt machines that were priced competitively with machines assembled by the end user.

That doesn't mean that users can never save any money by building machines themselves; it just means that sometimes they can't. Truly informed consumers understand this, and don't reflexively assume that it is always cheaper to build it themselves. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Those who think it is always cheaper to build it are just as uninformed as those who think it is always cheaper to buy it prebuilt.

[feverhost]

RasaMon: One thing you have to remember.. most of the population is not informed enough to make good educated decisions when purchasing computers. Most people are purchasing the name, this is especially true in the U.S. You may have extended computer experience, but you have to take yourself out of that group.. and think like a person who doens't know much or anything about computers.

My grandma just bought a computer.. yes, my grandma! (I think its funny). She got some eMachine at Wal-Mart. Why eMachine. ... Because it was at Wal-mart. If there was an iMac.. she would of bought an iMac. You see.. its about name.. hype. Wal-Mart could of been selling the "Cheap but Crappy BlahBlah Computer" and she would of purchased it.

Most people could care less if its a Dell, HP, Apple, or running Windows, Linux, OSX. People get what the stores are selling them, ann as long as it plays their games, music, and does a few applications.. they are happy. Things only get hectic when geeks/nerds/technophobes try to make things into a pissing contest and try to claim "their" machine the best.. its all a waste of time really.

Whatever product/system/server/computer/blah blah blah is best for you.. that is the best item then. Its all eye of the beholder, hype, whatever is available, whatever is cheap.. etc.. etc. This is the American way.

[Scortch]

Feverhost,

Exactly, those are the people I am talking about that these companies like apple, Dell, etc. are taking advantage of and ripping them off, because they don't know that that memory apple is charging $850 for can be had for $125 somewhere else.

Rastamon,

Yes, that's another group of people. I know there are all kinds that buy pre-built systems and they do know enough to say heck with that, I'll just get 1gb and then go buy the extra at newEgg or somewhere. See above though.

ihatewindowsvista,

I have no qualms with apple users or people wanting an apple. You have just misunderstood what I have been trying to get across all along. I think Steve Wozniak is an awesome person and I looked up to him back when computers were first coming on the scene for the home users. Jobs on the other hand. Well, we know what kind of morals he has.

[feverhost]

True a lot of companies do rip people off who are uninformed. IMHO I tend to think Apple is a bit expensive.. for what it is...

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Exactly, those are the people I am talking about that these companies like apple, Dell, etc. are taking advantage of and ripping them off, because they don't know that that memory apple is charging $850 for can be had for $125 somewhere else.

[RastaMon]

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Yes, that's another group of people. I know there are all kinds that buy pre-built systems and they do know enough to say heck with that, I'll just get 1gb and then go buy the extra at newEgg or somewhere. See above though.

Yes, you've pointed out that Apple overcharges for memory multiple times now. No one has disagreed with you. Apple does indeed overcharge for memory, primarily because they do not update their memory prices with the same frequency that third party RAM prices drop.

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I think Steve Wozniak is an awesome person and I looked up to him back when computers were first coming on the scene for the home users. Jobs on the other hand. Well, we know what kind of morals he has.

The Woz is indeed a unique and admirable character. I don't see how Jobs' morals have anything to do with whether Apple is the new Microsoft. It can easily be argued that Jobs' morals as CEO of Apple are better than Gates' were, as CEO of Microsoft. Jobs has the distinction of being a consumer electronics visionary with few, if any, contemporary equals. Love him, hate him, or feel completely indifferent about him, it is difficult, if not impossible, to credibly deny his ability to understand the kind of experience consumers want to have, and then to lead Apple to produce a device that offers just such an experience.

There was the original Apple, which revolutionized consumer level computing.

The Mac brought a graphical user interface to consumers.

The iMac redefined what the out of the box experience should be for consumers.

The iPod redefined the user experience for portable music players.

The iPhone has been said to have redefined the user experience for mobile phones, making access to phone features more intuitive.

Jobs has been a positive influence on consumer electronics. While he may or may not have problems with his personal morals,those problems are irrelevant to his influence on the industry. If we discounted his accomplishments based on his personal morals, we would also have to discount any points made by forum posters with a tendency to resort to name calling instead of addressing points made in discussions, which I believe are much more relevant displays of a lack of moral integrity, as the do pertain to issues at hand.

[feverhost]

Apple definitely has done some really good things, but Apple also "builds" on what other people do.

The iPod is really cool, but they weren't the first to do what they are doing. There were Xen mp3 players that did just what the iPod did. The scroll wheel wasn't anything new, nor was the amount of disk space it held. The iPod was a marketing slam dunk.. it became hyped.

The iPhone is a really cool device, but nothing new. I've had an HTC for years now that does just about everything an iPhone can do.. but more. So its not like Apple is making all these products that no one else is. Apple uses great marketing skills to sell their products.. and contratz to them.

[Scortch]

I give their marketing team props because they do a good job at over hyping apple products. The Justice dept. went after Microsoft, it's only right that they take apple to task for the same things.

[RastaMon]

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The iPod is really cool, but they weren't the first to do what they are doing.

No, it wasn't the first MP3 player. It redefined the user experience for portable music players.

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The iPhone is a really cool device, but nothing new.

While some things, like the multi-touch screen, are new features, the iPhone excels at improving the user experience, not in bringing forth new features.

What good are features if the typical user can't access them? Some companies market and sell products. Apple markets and sells improved user experiences. Very successfully, I might add.

[Scortch]

Surely you are not saying iTunes is an improved user experience.

They just slapped that thing to gether and tossed it out there.

[RastaMon]

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My grandma just bought a computer.. yes, my grandma! (I think its funny). She got some eMachine at Wal-Mart. Why eMachine. ... Because it was at Wal-mart. If there was an iMac.. she would of bought an iMac. You see.. its about name.. hype. Wal-Mart could of been selling the "Cheap but Crappy BlahBlah Computer" and she would of purchased it.

By this example, it is not about name; it is about the retailer. As you pointed out, the name didn't matter, only that it was available at Wal-Mart.

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Things only get hectic when geeks/nerds/technophobes try to make things into a pissing contest and try to claim "their" machine the best.. its all a waste of time really.

I get tired of the baseless FUD claims about Apple being overpriced, when they are, in fact, quite competitively priced. Additionally, I tire of being asked for help with Windows issues that would be non-existent if the people asking would have taken my initial advice to purchase a Mac instead of a Windows machine. So no, it's not a waste of time to inform people that many of their "computer issues" are not computer issues at all, but Windows issues.

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whatever is available, whatever is cheap.. etc.. etc. This is the American way.

But it is not necessarily the intelligent way to buy products, especially products that consumers expect to last 2-5 years or longer.

[RastaMon]

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Surely you are not saying iTunes is an improved user experience.

>They just slapped that thing to gether and tossed it out there

Do you even have any idea how iTunes came to be, or are you just throwing out more FUD? Please, enlighten us with the name of the established application that Apple bought, updated and renamed iTunes. If you're feeling especially smart, feel free to tell us the name of the app that was Apple's first choice to turn into iTunes.

BTW, as an audiophile, iTunes meets nearly all my requirements for a music management system, better than any other option available to me, and I've tried quite a lot of them, both hardware and software based.

[feverhost]

RastaMon: Its definitely not the smartest way, i'll give you that one. But who ever said the average American is that smart anyways? I'll also give you the multi-touch point.. true Apple did a very good job on that.
About the Wal-Mart reply.... in that point.. Wal-Mart was the hype. People go to Wal-Mart because its Wal-Mart.. cheap. Just like a lot of people purchase an eMachine computer because its cheap. But I was more-so making a poing that Wal-Mart was the hype. If people didn't buy into the Wal-Mart hype.. most would go out and get a Dell, or HP. People tend to buy things that "know about", and/or familiar with.

I do think a big reason why people buy Microsoft Computers is A. Its out there, and people know about it B. people use them at work and are familiar with them.

And IMHO I still think iMacs are expensive, and this shuns away a bunch of the more-so cheap consumers. And with Wal-Mart being one of the only huge retail stores with good sales this holiday season.. you can see a lot of people are "cheap" shoppers.

Last comment about 2-5 year computers. If a person is out to find the cheapest but reliable, they necessairly do not care about a computer lasting over 2-5 years. Plus who really wants a 5+ year old computer? With technology advancing so much.. a computer 5 years ago is way out-dated.

[RastaMon]

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I do think a big reason why people buy Microsoft Computers is A. Its out there, and people know about it B. people use them at work and are familiar with them.

I agree. Many people do not realize they even have other options.

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And IMHO I still think iMacs are expensive, and this shuns away a bunch of the more-so cheap consumers.

A comparison to PCs with equivalent hardware/software shows this is definitely not the case. While I think that Apple's reluctance to offer a Mac at the low end of consumer computing sometimes hurts them when their entry level prices are compared to the entry level prices of Dell, HP, etc, I think that the loss of functionality at the low end would do more harm than a lower entry level price point could make up for.

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Last comment about 2-5 year computers. If a person is out to find the cheapest but reliable, they necessairly do not care about a computer lasting over 2-5 years. Plus who really wants a 5+ year old computer? With technology advancing so much.. a computer 5 years ago is way out-dated.

It is not at all uncommon for five year old (and older) Macs to still be viable for use as a primary machine. I have an iBook (entry level laptop) from mid 2003 that is perfectly capable of meeting all my day to day computing needs at a usable speed (or, more accurately, it will be when I install a legal copy of OS X). The biggest drawback, USB 1.1 instead of USB 2.0, is mitigated by the presence of FireWire 400, which is faster then USB 2.0, anyway. PowerMacs from the same time are even more powerful and capable of meeting the needs of todays users, since have faster processors, and are upgradeable. Heck, people still use even older Power Macs as their primary computers. It is one of the benefits of Apple not offering a low-end product, and that OS X tends to get more efficient in terms of resource use with each new release. Buy a new Mac today, and you will experience what is most likely to be the slowest it will ever run.

[RastaMon]

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The Justice dept. went after Microsoft, it's only right that they take apple to task for the same things.

What "same things" would those be?

[Scortch]

Dude, iTunes is the crap. The biggest piece of junk out there.

Surely you are not telling me that you have no clue what they went after Microsoft for? I mean it was plastered everywhere in every paper and all over the net.

[RastaMon]

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Dude, iTunes is the crap. The biggest piece of junk out there.

Way to avoid the questions! :D

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Surely you are not telling me that you have no clue what they went after Microsoft for?

I know what they went after MS for. What I don't know is what those "same" offenses made by Apple are. Please enlighten me, if you're no to busy trying to figure out the ancestry of iTunes.

[feverhost]

RastaMon: That is another good point when you state iMacs are basically a good deal for what they are. In that I agree, as I was stating they are expensive for low-entry level desktop computers. iMac, seem to me, definitley not lower-end but higher-end computers. So I guess, they should be more expensive.

I don't think iTunes is crap, but I haven't been able to run any version of it on numerous computers without it sucking up a lot of resources. iTunes on the computers i've tested on (mind you not Mac's.. although I have had 2 Mac Mini's.. but sold them) were extremly bulky, to the extent of how the newer versions of Mozilla Firefox are becomming

But like I said above, I do agree iMacs are a some-what good price for what they are. Higher-end computing systems, and not competing with the $200 generic, or $300 eMachine computers. Which I think they would definitely not compete well in.