[Number3124]

yeah i thought about that but i dont have any of the up dates that i need to make it work thanks to my slow as crap dial-up :(

[SusanC]

Once I got my PC back with the new hard drive, Norton Anti-Virus wanted to install and I tried to stop it, but couldn't. So, after that I uninstalled it from my PC. I never liked Norton because it messed up our Dell PC's also. Each day, I get more and more used to Vista. It just scares me when that HP Smart Center pops up for no reason and when mine crashed the first time, I could not get out of that program and it kept coming up the next time and the third time also. It really scares me when it pops up again - it did it on 9/26 and 9/30. Like I said, I think Vista has a mind of its own at times.

[coastie65]

Hey Susan, I don't think it's Vista. I've got XP MCE and It pops up on me. It's something with HP. I have an HP C5180 All-In-One printer. If I don't get that I get some other HP thing. I think that it can be stopped, I just haven't bothered to find out how. I guess I will when I get irritated enough. coastie65

[coastie65]

Hey caserini, you're right about competition. You've got Linux out there and I believe a couple others. The problem is getting software written to that OS. They are going to write to the market ( Windows and to a lesser degree Mac). If I had my way, Microsoft would be forced to continue selling and supporting XP indefinately irregardless of any new OS they might introduce. Leave it to the user which OS they prefer. coastie65

[rgreen4]

Coastie65 & kjsacramento1 - you have made my point for me. You are complaining about Nvidia driver downloads for Nvidia graphics cards, well folks, the drivers are written by Nvidia to function with Windows. Most of these driver updates are for the Nvidia Geforce 8xxx which are Directx10 based. Now, Microsoft writes the OS, enables Directx10 at the request of the graphics card manufacturers, based on gamers requests. Then Nvidia is tardy to the party with its drivers and ATI is late to the party with cards and drivers, but somehow its Microsofts fault?

Now, don't get me wrong, I prefer Nvidia, and I have an 8600GS in my new machine, but if I am going to lay the blame on someone for a problem in the driver, I would blame those that wrote the driver - the Graphic chip manufacturers.

[kjsacramento1]

It seems you are missing the point to using Windows 2000, as every exceptional tech I know still does (and no, I do not put myself in that class). I've read in multiple tech places online that it is preferred for its streamlined bare bones basics that far outperforms the bells and whistles of the XP and Vista. I personally like the bells and whistles, but as for those disliking the upgraded Vista, they have reason to. Its frustrating to deal with all the dysfunction of a new operating system. My Vista came preinstalled. Someone said you have to pay for a decent system. I've got a new HP Pavilion m8010y with 2000GB RAM, an E6600 Duo Core Processor and 750 GB Hard Drive - a $1900 computer and I researched every component right down to the motherboard before getting - its suitable for high-end gaming and video rendering as planned. But the Vista makes it slower than my old Toshiba XP laptop. It's bogged down with so many security features its become a monster. So you got lucky on meeting your needs. Have you checked out the search function closely? You're suppose to be able to search the whole computer - fat chance - don't be misled. It has to be indexed to search everywhere and heaven forbid you want to include the system files. You can be administrator and still have to authorize yourself to access the system file that allows you to add certain files to the search. That's just one example. Then, there's the security system constantly demanding the extra permissions - for every stroke I used to make, I now have to make 3 more to get through the permissions. Have you noticed the little shortcuts to system files that don't work and just take up space to let you know they've moved the structure - yeah, that's just a learning process to find them all, but when you're on a time crunch and the IT aspects are not your job but a necessity to function, it is a royal pain. To say that Vista is alright as is - I don't think even Microsoft would be foolish enough to say so. They have full-time staff working constantly on fixes right alongside the hardware manufacturers. This is not a user misconception, its a fact. New operating systems take time to defunk and I don't want to participate in the process. Yeah, some of the new bells and whistles are fun and nice to have, but for those of us who are trying to produce, its a disaster. Every stroke counts; every screen change counts - speed is an asset that can't be replaced by bells and whistles. Naturally most home users will benefit from the strict security and complex access that prevents hacking and data theft, that is an incredible plus - but some of us have our own security methods and would rather not be "protected" at the expense of functionality and speed. And for those saying the "better" programs are Vista-ready and function fine, I have a lot of programs that aren't the "better" ones, but they are better for my needs and I want to use them without Vista shutting them out - along with competition. The politics of that is a whole new line of discussion. I am so happy for you that you are pleased with your product, but targeted use it must be to be working with no problems.

[rgreen4]

Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but I have been using Vista for 5 months on an HP Media Center m7690y with the E6400 processor and 2GB of Ram. It has the HP supplied upgrade to Vista Home Premium to replace the original XP Media Center Edition 2005 which was a bloated mess and was unstable. Looking back I blame Symantec's Norton's Internet Security 2007 for many of the problems.
After doing a clean install of Vista, it is just as fast and stable as my 4 year old HP D530 with XP Pro and P4 3.2 MHZ with 2 GB of Ram. In fact it boots within 5 seconds of it. It is the machine I use the most, and I use search all the time. Yes, most if not all the system adjustments are in different places, that just makes it different not bad. But, that is the reason I bought David Pogue's Vista Book to go along with the XP Pro book I bought 3 and 4 years ago (v.2 for SP2, and v1 for the orgininal XP Pro). I would rather look it up in a book rather than stumble around. The first of his series I bought was for Windows 2000 Pro.

I also have Vista as an OEM installation on a scratch built computer. It boots faster than any other machine I have. The third Vista machine I have is a new HP laptop that I spend a long time de-crapifying and setting up. When I got it, it was the slowest boot, but then I have pulled a lot off and haven't timed it yet.

I think if you go back and re-read my posts, I NEVER accused anyone of not knowing what they are talking about. What I pointed out is that it is unfair to blame Microsoft and Vista for driver problems written by Nvidia for Nvidia graphics cards. I have the 8600 series card in my new machine and so far I have collected 5 different driver versions for it. That is Nvidia's fault, not MS. That does not mean the problems don't exist, just I believe the blame is misdirected.

As for Windows 2000 Pro - yes if you had read the Wikipedia article, it is in fact Windows NT 5.0 and XP is NT 5.1 and 5.2. They dropped the NT terminololy for various reasons. If you have the resources to keep it secure, it is a slimmed down lean OS with a very clean install. You must have missed the fact that it is what is on the PC on my desk at work. I have been using Win2K for 7 years. It is a functional OS, but rather bland which makes it fine for business use, but most consumers want something a little more pleasant to look at, hence XP and now Vista. But, Win2K is no longer supported which means that no more security updates are coming.

On the topic of the books, Pogues Windows 2000 Pro book is 444 pages, his Windows XP Pro SP2 book is 688 pages long and the Vista book is 828 pages.

As far as XP is concerned, if it works for you, stick with it. Vista works for me so I will go forward with it. If you wanted to install 2K on your Media Center, you might even be able to do it as you could use XP drivers for most devices.

[kjsacramento1]

I'm glad your scanjet works for you. I am very happy for you. Mine is an HP Scanjet 8250 that I installed with only the new Vista associated software from the manufacturer on a new Vista HP m8010y and it didn't work - the manufacturer walked me through it from the outset to avoid problems. There was no upgrade from XP to cause transitional problems. HP techs were at a loss. Thanks to some of the marvellous independent tech forums online I got it fully working with the Vista, just to have a Vista update mess that up. Fixed it again, just to have another update interfere and now I am stuck without my highly desireable duplexing function. What I think some people don't get is that everyone writing has different configurations, different software, different peripherals, different hardware. It is wrong to assume Vista is so perfect because someone got lucky with their configs. If I can go to Intel and find dozens of new updates for my new E6600 Duo Core processor and RAID Matrix Storage Manager that are less than a month old and made due to an incredibly long list of Vista-related bugs, how can ANYONE say the bugs are all in the imagination. Same thing with a brand new NVIDIA graphics card. Out of nowhere I got lots of video flickering, a blue screen and everything was gone - after some researching (using my old XP laptop of course) I found that the graphics card had to be updated to function correctly in Vista as well. After updating the drivers and related softwares those problems were fixed, but the average home user isn't going to know how to do this and shouldn't have to. If Intel and NVidia are making a half a dozen changes to their latest processors in the last month, then why should there be any surprise that I'm having problems. No, the bugs are not imagined.

[kjsacramento1]

I clearly owe you an apology for misconstruing your opinion.
Still, our systems are no doubt similar as I have the new HP m8010y with 2 GB RAM and an E6600 preinstalled with Vista - top of the line everything short of custom-built and have been using it 4 months day and night nonstop. Since our systems are similar, it clearly supports your contention that I previously misread - that it is the software programmers and hardware manufacturers not being up to date that is to blame, not Microsoft. It is no doubt the differences in what is being used with our computers. That is a most valid point. But I am surprised if you didn't run into the same Intel chipset, RAID Matrix and NVidia bugs I did and the necessary updates to run them on Vista. If the processors aren't functioning properly according to the manufacturers themselves, doesn't that say something about readiness? And if Vista is ready itself, then why all the MICROSOFT updates - why isn't it just the other softwares providing updates.

But that brings me back to what I've been trying to convey in my posts - that it isn't a matter of being good, but being ready - that it is part of the consistent pattern of new operating systems that there is a breaking-in period. My objection was that I was forced to participate - HP WOULD NOT provide me with XP although desired and requested. I have been a fan of Microsoft all along and, just as you never meant to imply others didn't know what they were talking about, I never meant to imply any dislike of Microsoft - just on Vista-readiness, Vista slowness and whether I wanted to be forced to use a new system. If you read some of my posts you'll note that my speed issues have nothing to do with startup, but with the security features built into Vista. I think the security features are TERRIFIC for SOMEONE ELSE - not me. I don't want them. I want the uninterrupted speedy access and flow I had in XP. I've been happy with the same 27" TV for 20+ years despite the improvements available. I just want the same choice and consistency with computers - at least for a period of 5 years! It took me forever to get all my software and peripherals working efficiently in XP. Now I have to start over - the learning, the fixing, the waiting for software programmers to fix the bugs. It just gets old - and expensive.

But thank you much for your input. I'll try picking up the David Pogue's Vista Book you mentioned and see if it speeds up the breaking-in. In the meantime, I plan to seek out posts for disabling Vista security features.

[vistasgottogo]

Vista has got to go. I'm tired of trying to convince Vista that I have "permission" to do what I have to do on my own computer. Vista may work well for those who use their computers as a glorified dvd player but for those of us who are productivity users, it sucks.

Microsoft has got to wake up and listen to the customer. We need an os that will let us use our computer in the way that we want to use it. And it should be easy, efficient and fast. I spend way too much time waiting for downloads and extractions with Vista.

[rgreen4]

If you really want to turn off the User Account Control (the continue button) here is a link to do so. Note: This will probably not turn of the Windows Defender control as it is separate. For that you would have to disable Windows Defender.

[kjsacramento1]

Thank you much for the link. If I had you to set up the system for me I suspect I would have my complaints resolved, but not all of us are professional techs. Appreciate the info.

[rgreen4]

Hey, I'm not a professional tech - just an industrial accountant. No, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either. Just been using PC's since before they were call PC's - they were Micro Computers back then, and used CPM. Then IBM and PC-DOS came along.

[jarty]

Evening all,

I work for a small IT company, and we rarely supply vista PC as they are problomatic when it comes to support, we use Helpdesk Vnc to support customers remotely and this is very effective unless its a vista PC which makes the connection speed and response times seem like a dial up connection even on an 8mb connection. Tried connecting using remote assistance to a customer and it took 3 hours to perform what would have been a 20min investigation.

Ever tried installing a network printer ? can take 20 mins to discover the printers and if you have muliple printers to install this is a serious waste of time.

We got to high spec vista premium PC from Acer and after 5 visits to the clients site to try and stop the PC from crashing, and returning in to acer for repair we gave up and installed XP x64 edition - 10 times faster and no further problems, why did they not just tart up xp 64 and sell that instead I don't know.

Other Acer PC replaced with Fujitsu high spec Vista premium, worked fine but then there games wont work, but works fine on lower spec xp laptop and another Vista laptop. Once you put the cost of time spent sorting out problems there is no profit in selling the PC at all... whats the point!!



Summary of Vista "life is a box of chocolates you never no what your going to get"

"the second hand car of the OS world"

Works fine for a while but when it doesn't just watch those smug faces turn to angry red, as the cost of getting it to work mounts up.

Buyer Beware...

[newsguygeorge]

Instead of telling us how to transition to Vista more smoothly, tell us how to pressure the industry to give us more access to XP. Vista is for teeny-boppers. Real business people need XP Pro. C'mon HP, bring back XP for all your systems. Good for you, Dell. Expand the line to give us more XP. And Microsoft, your continued bullying the industry will drive us to Unix-type systems.

[stealth694]

Compatibility is the main problem. Just how compatible is Vista with Windows XP and Windows 2000 programs? Already I am seeing software that is Vista only and that makes me stop and wonder. This wouldn't be the first time Gates has upgraded an OS just so we would have to buy new compatible software. Personally I am sticking with XP for at least another year to two yrs and see what happens. Vista has an aroma like ME and I am not interested in getting sick again.

[JarMan]

I will be building another system for gaming and personal use, and the OS that I'll be installing is XP Pro.Vista is a oversized/pork-belly OS Removed by Moderator thats a memory/driver hog. Before I switch to Vista, it will need to be trimmed down.








Edited by MPH Enterprises - Please refrain from discussing politics within this forum. Please refer to the Community Standards for full details.

[richardmitnick]

This is about the longest discussion I have ever seen.

Two of the prominent complaints are:

Apps that do not work.

Cost of a computer to run anything but Vista Basic.

First, the apps not running is not the responsibility of Microsoft. The application vendors had five years and plenty of help from Microsoft. You should be directing your complaints to those vendors.



Second, as to cost, I paid a little less for my laptop, A Dell XPS M1710, running Vista Business than I did for my last laptop, a Dell Inspiron 8000, which started life as a WinME machine but to day is still running XP Home. I can afford to buy well equipped machines, so that is what I do. I would never look at a sub-one thousand dollar machine at a big box store. So, if one thinks the Vista machines are costly, with what are they being compared. My Dell Inspiron ran close to $4000.00. My XPS machine was about $3700.00. So, I don't believe that cost is an issue.

[kjsacramento1]

First, if you read the full thread you'd see that your first comment was addressed, validated and answered - that yes, software developers should have gotten up to speed, but that is just not how the real world works. Bugs don't show up until a system is integrated with the real world. That is why there are constant updates. And the bigger problems have nothing to do with non-Microsoft software, but with the sluggishness of Vista itself, that is no doubt at least partially due to all the security features holding up file access and networking.

Second, Cost of the machine was never the issue - my statement about my machine cost was in response to someone suggesting that a cheap machine was the cause of the problems instead of Vista - I don't have a cheap machine, but it wouldn't make any difference if I did. Replacing all the software and peripherals is what my complaint about costs was about - even the best programs out there are charging for their Vista-compatible software and the computer manufacturers themselves are saying that software without the Vista logo is likely to cause problems. I was warned by HP that I shouldn't run any and Microsoft said the same thing at their Vista launch - not unless you want to RISK incompatability and potential interference with other programs. So I haven't, yet my complaints stand.

[Sasha]

After reading everything, I figure it's time to put in my two cents, for what it's worth. I don't hate MS; dislike, maybe, but not hate. I use Firefox and Thunderbird with XP SP2, but I'm starting to research Linux for when it's no longer supported.
Yes, software/driver developers are responsible for their own apps - but they were ready, way back when - and then MS changed direction on them, and they had to start over from scratch. So whose fault is it?
If you haven't had trouble with Vista, you are blessed - consider yourself so. I work at a help desk, supporting computers, and see more people having problems with Vista than I do people that don't. The majority of people don't like it. Even if they aren't having trouble with it.
Fast? Hardly. What services have you turned off to make it run fast?
My point is, unless you've walked a mile in the other person's shoes... you aren't going to enjoy the view or feel the other's pain.
'Nuff said.