[dabigkahuna]

I'm interested in a Mac, but, frankly, I'm concerned about the prices, amongst other things.

My preference would be a laptop, but besides the prices, I'm very concerned about the limited number of USB ports. All seem to have just two except the top one which only has three.

Well, I have a Inspiron 5100 laptop with two ports and it is a real problem. You see, the wireless mouse/keyboard I have will only work if the USB connector is directly into the computer. Then there is my laser printer - it also must be plugged directly into the computer (which makes no sense to me - why should that be necessary when you are just sending data to the printer???).

Anyway, that takes up both ports. If I need to plug in anything else, I have to unplug something else. I've even tried those multiple port items where you can plug in two plugs (using both my ports) but it would lead to a device that has 4. Supposedly this gives more power to it. Well, fine, except those two devices I have won't work that way either!

So only having to USB ports just isn't going to cut it and I've leery of even having just three - not to mention I'd have to buy the most expensive Powerbook Pro!

So I guess a desktop is the next choice. Money is still an issue, but I don't think there would be a shortage of USB ports. But I would want to be able to run Windows programs - mostly Office (I have 2000) because of two things: I have an excel formula that I haven't been able to find a substitute for (I have also posted a question about that) and I use Access with a lot of visual basic code. But I might be able to get by with Filefox or something on that item.

I guess I need to know how low I can go and be able to run Windows Office without the computer being slow. Preferrably using Parallels or something so I don't have to boot to Windows.

It would be nice if it could also handle so games - probably not the super-complicated stuff, but the less demanding ones.

Thanks.

[TechyGuy]

Hi dabigkahuna :-) ,
If you need a USB port solution, you could always add an external USB hub that connects to a USB-port. Most USB-hubs have at least 4 ports, so you 4 external hubs minus 1 internal hub = 3 extra USB-ports. I'd not go with a Macintosh, because you can usualy get a better price on other PC-brands.
Also, how large is your budget? If you need help deciding on a PC or a Macintosh, I'd need to know your budget.
-TechGuy

[dabigkahuna]

Maybe I didn't explain it right, but I was trying to say that I tried the hub approach and neither of those two items (printer and wireless keyboard/mouse will work with one. They must go directly into the computer's usb ports to work. Still don't understand why that should matter with a printer of any kind though.

As for computer choices, I may do another PC, but frankly, I'm fed up with all the Windows hassles. If I can get a couple things I use on a PC (the Excel formula mainly) to work on a Mac, I may switch.

Budget is hard to narrow down. Certainly I'm attracted to the low price of, say, some laptop PCs (on sale for $500 or so with 15" screens). Figure I could buy something like that and then do it again a couple years later and end up with a better computer then for a similar price and still have a good backup. Main concern there, besides windows hassles, is the integrated graphics (I posted about that in the Windows section).

If a low price Mac could do what I want - including running windows under Parallels about as well as I can now (2.4 mhz Inspiron), that might be fine even though it costs more. Of course, if I went higher to a powerbook for convenience, they have small screens. I'd definitely want to be able to add an external monitor but be able to have it and the build in screen active at the same time. Don't know if the cheaper macs can do that. Finally, I think the cheaper macs also use integrated graphics which brings me back to that issue.

I could, conceivably, go pretty high. All I'd have to do is stop paying extra on my mortgage for a few months - I pay a LOT extra every month trying to pay it off in 7 years. But I'd rather not back away from that.

I know, not very specific, but that is one of the things that makes it hard for me too.

[RastaMon]

You are correct about the MacBooks only having two external USB ports. However, all Macs (optional on Mac Pro) ship with Bluetooth, so a wireless keyboard and mouse can be used without taking a USB port, keeping a port free. Using Bluetooth, however, would require you to invest in a new keyboard and mouse if your current ones are not Bluetooth. Of course your current ones would work fine until the need to free up a USB port comes up.

Every Mac also has FireWire 400, and MacBook Pros and iMacs ship with FireWire 800, also. These ports are handy for external drives, since they are, in practice, faster than USB 2.0.

The MacBook has a 1280 x 800 screen resolution, and can simultaneously support a 1920 x 1200 external monitor, in extended desktop or video mirroring modes.

Upgrading the memory and/or the hard drive is very fast and easy on the MacBook, so you can upgrade either yourself for less than Apple charges. The MacBook also supports more than Apple's advertised 2 GiB. I currently have 3 GiB in mine at the present moment, with zero issues.

Regarding prices, while the MacBook starts at $1099 (I received a $100 educational discount.), it is competitively priced when compared to laptops with equivalent hardware, such as 802.11n wireless, gigabit ethernet, FireWire 400 (IEEE1394a), integrated web cam, etc. When I bought my MacBook about 6 weeks ago, Dell could not come close to the price. HP was in the same range, as was Lenovo. The age of Apples being more expensive than PCs is over. They may not always be cheapest, but they are usually not the most expensive, either. Granted, you can find PCs that cost less, but they usually lack many of the Mac's standard features.

For $100 more than the price of the entry level MacBook, you can get the entry level iMac, which has a faster processor, faster front side bus, additional USB ports, FW 800, and a graphics card with dedicated video memory, as well as an integrated 1680 x 1050 20 inch LCD screen, with support for a second display in extended desktop mode. If you already have a monitor and keyboard, the Mac Mini is an option you might consider to save money. It starts at $599.

Any new Mac will run Office easily, even under Rosetta. For light gaming, any Mac should be okay (possibly excepting the Mini), but for heavy gaming, or playing the very latest games, an iMac or MacBook Pro is a much better choice.

[KellieCM]

Rasta is correct in all of his information. I would think that a bluetooth keyboard/mouse would do you quite well. My partner has one for her iMac and really likes it. Firewire is also an option.

I agree that it's strange your stuff must be plugged directly into the computer to work. It shouldn't make a difference. I have lots of stuff plugged into my USB hub and it works just fine.

There is an MS Office version for Mac that includes Excel, so running your formula on a Mac is just no big deal. Alternately, you could go the Parallels/Windows route, but this may cost more if you only need Excel. You mentioned Access, and as far as I know there is no native Mac version of Access, so you would need Windows for that. However, there are some great database programs for Mac, like FileMakerPro. I'm not totally up on database stuff, but I'm sure someone else can help you with that. The point is, you have options.

I would personally not recommend a Mac Mini to anyone, as they are small and underpowered. You will get more for your money in a desktop (iMac) than a laptop (MacBook, MacBookPro). But it's up to you if you value portability enough to pay the extra for it.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Maybe I didn't explain it right, but I was trying to say that I tried the hub approach and neither of those two items (printer and wireless keyboard/mouse will work with one. They must go directly into the computer's usb ports to work. Still don't understand why that should matter with a printer of any kind though.

I won't offer up other information...[~80584] already offered up rather good information.



I will ask...what kind of USB hub did you try? Was it a powered hub (i.e. did it have a power cord/brick that you plugged into the wall)? Or was it just plugged into a USB port? If it was the later, then I suggest you try a powered USB hub. Many USB devices will NOT work with unpowered/portable USB hubs as such hubs are essentially splitting the power of the USB port and some devices need more power than can be supplied by such hubs.

[RastaMon]

{quote}There are some great database programs for Mac, like FileMakerPro.{quote}
Unfortunately, FileMaker is not yet Leopard compatible, so unless DaBigKahuna purchases a new Mac very soon, before Apple has Leopard pre-loaded, he will have to wait until a compatibility update is released by FileMaker before he can use it.

@DaBigKahuna:

Was the USB hub you were using USB 2.0 or USB 1.1 (or even USB 1.0)? Can you get any peripherals to work with it to verify the hub is working? Have you tried other hubs with your keyboard and mouse? I've heard enough USB horror stories to realize that hubs are not all equal.

[KellieCM]

Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks Rasta! (See, I told you that I wasn't smart about database stuff.) :)

[dabigkahuna]

I'm going to try to respond to all the comments in the last several messages at once. Lot's of very helpful info in them!

The Bluetooth option may be sufficient, even if I need to buy a new keyboard and mouse, but I'd still feel better if I had three or more USB ports too! Seems odd to me that the top MacBook Pro would only have Bluetooth as an option though.

My present computer (Dell Inspiron 5100) has Firewire - not sure which speed - and I used it to hook up to an external drive. But some time ago, that drive kept getting errors. Reformatting only helped temporarily. I'm not sure if the problem was the drive or if the firewire connection was causing the problem. Someplace I read about a problem with Firewire. I have no recall on whether that was just with this computer system or if it had to do with a certain speed of firewire or what. I just know I can't use that hard drive anymore.

My computer has a top setting of 1024x768 so I'm glad to hear the MacBook has a 1280 x 800 screen resolution. And I'm REALLY please to know it can run a separate monitor at the same time as an extended desktop. But what is "video
mirroring modes" - just the same thing on both?

> The MacBook also supports more than Apple's advertised 2 GiB.
I currently have 3 GiB in mine at the present moment, with zero issues. <

Very nice to know!
> it is competitively priced when compared to
laptops with equivalent hardware, such as 802.11n wireless, gigabit
ethernet, FireWire 400 (IEEE1394a), integrated web cam, etc. <

Well, I have thought about the wireless 802.11n stuff. Actually, it would probably only be useful to me on the very few occasions I go someplace - usually just once a year. I have no network stuff here so the ethernet might not matter. I live in a very small condo in Hawaii - 700 sq ft - so everything is pretty much in one spot. Never used a web cam before. Don't know if that will matter to me either, but you never know until you have one.

> The age of Apples being
more expensive than PCs is over. <

I think the problem is that they simply don't have true entry level machines. Sometimes I wonder what it would do to their sales if they did - maybe more people would be willing to at least try them.

That extra $100 for the iMac sounds like a good deal for what extras you get. And would solve the USB issue. I'd like portability, so I have some thinking to do on this.

I don't have a monitor so the Mac Mini probably isn't a good choice with its lower power.
> Any new Mac will run Office easily, even under Rosetta. <

Excellent - but what's Rosetta? I know of Bootcamp and Parallels, but not that.

Okay, next message:

> I agree that it's strange your stuff must be plugged directly into the
computer to work. It shouldn't make a difference. I have lots of stuff
plugged into my USB hub and it works just fine. <

Yeah, why should data take special power? Strange.

> You mentioned Access, and as far as I know there is no native
Mac version of Access <

Yeah, but in my research I saw something that made it sound like NeoOffice (variation of Open Office) had a compatible database. That would be interesting. It also said NeoOffice (don't know about Open Office) would accept the visual basic code in files. That would be really nice.

Next message:

> what kind of USB hub did you try? Was it a powered hub (i.e.
did it have a power cord/brick that you plugged into the wall)? Or was
it just plugged into a USB port? <

I tried at least three. I remember one or two had some sort of option where you plugged the hub into both USB ports to get more power. That didn't work. But I have another still here which has the outlet plug. I'm sure I tested it unsuccessfully (the adapter is still plugged into my power strip), but I guess I'll do it again anyway.

> some devices need more power than can be
supplied by such hubs. <

But this is what makes no sense to me. Why, for example, should the laser printer require more power when it has its own power supply? The usb hub is just sending data. That shouldn't require some major power supply (at least that's my opinion!).

Next message:

> Unfortunately, FileMaker is not yet Leopard compatible,
so unless DaBigKahuna purchases a new Mac very soon, before Apple has
Leopard pre-loaded, he will have to wait until a compatibility update
is released by FileMaker before he can use it. <

Well, I won't be buying it soon. At the very earliest it would be around Christmas. It may be much later. I'm kinda focused on pay ahead on my mortgage as much as I can and doing so early is more beneficial than doing it later. I could skip the extra payments I make for three months and buy a humdinger of a MacBookPro, but I really don't want to back off the mortgage that much.

The USB hubs I tried were all 2.0. I can't recall what all I tested, but I think a card reader worked. Right now the only other things I have are the laser printer, keyboard, and digital camera.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

The Bluetooth option may be sufficient, even if I need to buy a new keyboard and mouse, but I'd still feel better if I had three or more USB ports too! Seems odd to me that the top MacBook Pro would only have Bluetooth as an option though.

The MacBook, MacBook Pro, and the iMac all come with WiFi (802.11n) and Bluetooth standard. It is NOT an option.

Quote

My computer has a top setting of 1024x768 so I'm glad to hear the MacBook has a 1280 x 800 screen resolution. And I'm REALLY please to know it can run a separate monitor at the same time as an extended desktop. But what is "video
mirroring modes" - just the same thing on both?

Mirror mean the same issue on both screens.

[RastaMon]

I should have clarified; it is the Mac Pro, and not the MacBook Pro that has Bluetooth as an option rather than a standard feature. The MacPro is Apple's professional grade desktop, and is the most configurable model they offer.

As Smax said, video mirroring is the same image on both screens. The MacBook supports this. and also extended desktop mode, which is having a desktop spread across two screens, with the ability to navigate your mouse smoothly between the two. Everything acts as a single desktop.

Off topic: I spent two years on Oahu, and miss it very much. The tropical climate ruined me for any other kind, and there is nothing that compares to island culture here on the mainland. :-)

I think Apple initially released the Mini as an entry level machine, but if you don't already have a monitor, there really isn't any benefit to buying a Mini instead of an iMac. The iMac is a more powerful machine than the Mini or MacBook, roughly equivalent to the MacBook Pro. Besides the screen size, hard drive size and USB ports, the biggest difference seems to be the 1.5 Gb/s Express Card slot on the MacBook Pro.

Rosetta is an application that allows Intel Macs to run software written for PowerPC Macs. They won't run as quickly as they would if they were compiled to run natively on Intel hardware, but they are certainly usable. In my personal experience, the jump in processor performance more than overcame the extra resources that Rosetta uses. Rosetta is transparent to the user. When needed, Mac OS X runs it automatically, so there is no need for the user to keep track of which apps run natively, and which apps run with Rosetta.

I hope this clarifies things. :-)

[dabigkahuna]

Question about the draft n capability (since I've never used these things) - what if I go to a place that has a/b or g. Will my system work with it.

> Off topic: I spent two years on Oahu, and miss it very much. The
tropical climate ruined me for any other kind, and there is nothing
that compares to island culture here on the mainland. :-) <

I completely agree.
> I think Apple initially released the Mini as an entry level machine <

Oh, I should have specified an entry level laptop. I don't think of $1000+ as entry level anymore, though once that would have been a great price for a laptop!

> The iMac is a more powerful
machine than the Mini or MacBook, roughly equivalent to the MacBook
Pro. <

This is the kind of info that is really helpful - comparisons to other things. Sometimes I think I might want to get a MacBook Pro to maximize power while being portable - especially since I may want to use Parallels or something with some games. But it's nice to know I can get that power in a desktop.

As for the Macbook, at first I was concerned about a small screen, but then I decided that would be a big plus when I have to carry it - my Dell weighs a ton! But only if I could use an external monitor and even then only if I could use the built in one at the same time. So far, so good on all possibilities.
> Rosetta is an application that allows Intel Macs to run software
written for PowerPC Macs. They won't run as quickly as they would if
they were compiled to run natively on Intel hardware, but they are
certainly usable. <

Is that like the X11 (or something like that) that I read was necessary to run Open Office on the Mac?

Thanks.

[KellieCM]

I can't answer your X11 question for you, but I can answer the wireless one.

Yes, I believe that the MacBook, MacBookPro and iMac all work on a/b/g or draft n networks.

[RastaMon]

{quote}s that like the X11 (or something like that) that I read was necessary to run Open Office on the Mac? {quote}

No, their different.

Rosetta translates binary code that was written and compiled for Mac OS X on the PowerPC platform. It can be thought of as much the same as a human translator who translates from English to French or Portuguese, or some other language. Apple offered a similar dynamic translation solution when the Mac transitioned from the Motorola 68K processor to the PowerPC.

X11 is an application that offers developers a way to create windows in graphic user interfaces (GUI).

Bear in mind that I don't know enough about either technology to offer a detailed technical explanation, and have --probably-- undoubtedly oversimplified them.

[smax013]

kellie said:

I can't answer your X11 question for you, but I can answer the wireless one.

Yes, I believe that the MacBook, MacBookPro and iMac all work on a/b/g or draft n networks.

Yes, the 802.11n chipset in Macs will also work with 802.11a, 802.11b, and 802.11g.



I am not really familiar with X11, but Rosetta is basically a PowerPC emulation mode. It allows Intel based Macs to run Mac software that is compiled for use with PowerPC computers. It is kind of like running Parallels, but it is "hidden" in the OS so you don't even know it is there and running.

[dabigkahuna]

So far, so good.

In another thread I was looking for an Excel type program that would handle a specific formula I have to have (trying to get away from Microsoft stuff). Turns out the present version of Open Office can do it so that's a big help too since there are versions for Mac and Linux besides Windows. Not sure yet if I'll be satisfied with it, but so far so good.

Now I need to do some analysis of the specific chips, etc, on the various macs compared to each other and some cheap PCs to see what the tradeoffs are.

[dabigkahuna]

Smax,

Okay, I tried my hub that has its own power supply. Didn't work. When I tried the printer, it said it was found, etc, but when I tried to print, nothing happened - the print material just got buffered or something until I plugged it back into the computer directly.

The wireless keyboard and mouse were found, but then it said something about not being able to work - and it didn't work.

Then I plugged in my camera - that was found and I was able to look at pictures stored on it on my computer by looking at it with windows explorer.

Very frustrating overall.

Bob

[dabigkahuna]

Okay, I've made a chart of all the MacBooks, MacBook Pros and IMacs.

Of the MacBooks, I think the 2nd best may be best for me because it has the drive that will write CD's and DVD's. That's important to me. The slight extra speed may not matter much, but certainly a 120 GB hard drive is better than 80 Gb.

That costs $1299 though I would get the educator's discount so cut off $100.

The biggest weakness seems to be the graphics. I found a rating of most graphic options and the Intel GMA 950 that these have is well down the list - number 82. The system I have now with a separate card in the laptop is ranked 83. That isn't much improvement after 4 years.

Looking at the Pro, I guess the lowest price one would be best bang for the buck as it has a pretty strong graphics card, though the top two have more memory and maybe faster memory.

One question though - it seems that only the top Pro laptop has an express card slot. How much of a problem may that be?

Anyway, my choice would cost $1999 minus the discount which might be $150 or so.

As much as I'd like a laptop, the IMac may be a smarter choice.

Of those, I lean towards the next to the bottom. $300 more than the base model give a sizable jump in processor speed (2.4 vs 2.0). While the base model has a pretty good graphics card (ranked 46), the one in this one may be ranked #16. I'm not sure because the chart I have lists a 2600 XT while Apple lists it as a 2600 Pro. You get 70 more Gb on the harddrive too.

And I really like a 20" screen included for that price. When I consider the notebook screen with the idea of adding an external monitor, that jumps up the price.

So, after looking at all this - assuming no one wants to pay off my mortgage for me, if I buy a Mac, it would probably end up being either the IMac or the MacBook I mentioned.

That doesn't solve things enough yet. I still have to weigh those against buying a PC laptop with 15.4 widescreen, 160 GB hard drive, about a 1.83 ghz speed that can be gotten for around $500 or so on a good sale day (my brother got one for that plus a printer - a bad one - and a router!). At less than half the price, you have to wonder if that wouldn't be a good approach and then a couple years later, you can probably buy something as good as the Mac would be (as far as power is concerned) and maybe have spent the same total amount of money - yet you'd have two computers.

Well, I hear Apple may be announcing new stuff in November - also heard it may happen in January too. All we need is a 50% cut in any of these and I'm ready to buy! Too bad that doesn't happen with Apple.