[Northlite]

I think if we use the car idea, we are not talking about the car you buy itself but the accessories you try to add to it when you get it home? I didn't have any problems out of the box with any of the Vista computers we have gotten - 2 desktops and 4 laptops of assorted brands, Acer, Gateway, Compaq, Toshiba.

It is my thinking that - Vista was not born and released on Jan. 31st every one knew it was coming. Prior to it's release software and hardware vendors had to have had access to it - if they wanted to bother. It maybe hardware and software companies devoting their staff to their new wares and maybe one person to the old or is it that Vista is so complicated that no one can figure it out? Since all my open source programs work fine on it I don't think that is the issue, GIMP, Thunderbird, Firefox, OpenOffice, etc. When HP said to me "We have provided Microsoft with generic drivers for your All In One printer model just plug it in or use the link below to shop for a new Vista compatible model if you want more functionality from your All In One printer" what does this tell me.

More over it's jumping on the cash cow band wagon, they smell your wallet open - you want a new operating system then buy new software and hardware from us too, after all in the end who are you going to blame - Microsoft for coming out with a new operating system? Why should Microsoft be responsible for all the thousands of things you can decide to throw at it, people complain about it's bloat now can you imagine if it had to include all the drivers and patches for hardware and software from the past 10 yrs? Microsoft has no control over what software or hardware you run on your computer and as far as I know they don't recieve any kick back when you buy this other hardware or software, they are not like Apple that has basic control over what computers their Operating System goes onto.

I have been using Vista since Jan. 31st and I did have some compatibility issues and fought with going forward with Vista or back to the easy way, XP but was able to work through them or accept them with out having to buy any new software or hardware, I guess I am just one of the lucky ones to have come out of the other side somewhat unscaved. I did not upgrade to Vista as I didn't upgrade any of our machines with XP either, I bought it already on a new computer. It may also be that people were allowed to get too settled into XP since it was out for too long, clearly a computer or two, in every house did become most poplular while that operating system was out.

[rgreen4]

To use your car analogy, I know of a fella that had a late 90's 3/4 ton pickup and had spent several thousand dollars on fancy 16" rims (8 lug) and tires. Now one of the interesting thing about 8 lug rims on 3/4 ton trucks is that they all have the same bolt pattern, regardles of whether it is GM, Ford or Dodge. Then he when out and bought a shiny new 2003 Heavy Duty pickup. But before he traded, he removed his nice new rims and tires, and put the originals back on, because he was going to use the new rims and tires on his new truck and save money that way.

The first weekend after he got his new truck, he pulled it into his shop, removed the factory 17" rims and went to put the first of the fancy rims on and they would not fit. It seems that the reason the truck comany increased the wheel size was to clear the larger brakes and calipers for safety, and the 16" rims would not clear the calipers. The lug pattern was still the same, but there was an inconsistency in the way the wheels fit.

We face these problems all the time. The spare battery for our previous cell phone won't work with our new one. The wheels from our previous vehicle won't fit our new one. The new TV and DVD player need a different (and more expensive) cable than our previous one. We have files saved on 3 1/2" floppy discs, but our new computer doesn't have a floppy drive. (I still have 5 1/4" floppies around - and a drive). Etc, etc, etc.

We can either wallow in our despair and blame the companies, or we can put our big boy britches on, and work to solve the problem. I have asked many people who gripe about a problem to please post on the threads where their problem can catch attention and the eye of the several dozen regulars of the community to help solve the problem - only one has done so.

The reason I asked for them to post one problem at a time, is that it is easier to solve a situation one step at a time. If you take your vehicle to the repair shop and list several items that are giving problems, they will work on one problem at a time. We in the community suffer from the inablility to lay hands one, all we can go by is the written descriptions, which is infinitely more difficult to work with.

[rgreen4]

Well put.

[art209]

5 1/4" floppies? rgreen4 needs to start a museum. I remember when your PC wouldn't run without one of those inserted.

Art

[rgreen4]

Yeh, my first machine was a Compaq "Portable", that you had to have a strong back to carry around. It weighed 40 pounds. Ran MS-DOS 1.1 and had dual floppies, the OS disk went in A, and you booted the machine, then you removed the boot disc and inserted the program disc in A, and the data disc in B and started the program.

Ah, those were the days - no copy protection, no UAC, no COA to key in, no WGA to annoy. No graphics interface (white letters on a green backgound only), no internet (did have modems and bulletin boards do download programs from), no broad band (14.4kbps modems were the latest). Come to think of it I don't think PC World was quite around yet in the fall of '84. And Windows was just a diagram on a whiteboard and a gleam in Gate's eye.

Everything was working when you got the A:> on the screen. I didn't even have a printer when I started. And people were complaining about incompatibilities between DOS, CPM and Apple II programs.

[TNgizmo]

Dear rgreen4,

My HP is a CLJ 2605dn, and I did finally get that PCL driver, and it works for what I do, for now.

[art209]

Ah...the good old days.

"Windows was just a diagram on a whiteboard and a gleam in Gate's eye." - actually I figured that we would still be using DOS today if Gates didn't finally decide to copy Apple.

[rgreen4]

Actually, Jobs and Apple did not originate the GUI inteface for the Lisa (The $10,000 predecessor to the Mac) either. Nor did they originate the mouse. The based the system conceptually at least, from a Xerox workstation (if I remember correctly). There was early talk in the industry that Apple was going to sue Microsoft, until it came out that there was a better case for Xerox suing both.

[RastaMon]

{quote}Actually, Jobs and Apple did not originate the GUI inteface for the Lisa (The $10,000 predecessor to the Mac) either. Nor did they originate the mouse. The based the system conceptually at least, from a Xerox workstation (if I remember correctly). There was early talk in the industry that Apple was going to sue Microsoft, until it came out that there was a better case for Xerox suing both.{quote}

Apple was very up front with Xerox about getting ideas for their GUI. They paid Xerox with $millions in Apple stock. Furthermore, they did not and could not use Xerox code, since Xerox PARC was using machines far more powerful than Apple could hope to use in a computer that a consumer could afford.

On the other hand, in court, Microsoft didn't even contest Apple's claim that MS copied the Mac GUI.

[DoctorDoom]

Here Here! applause



That's funny, I still have a 5 1/4 floppy drive somewhere too, but I don't think I have any disks for it. As a matter of fact, I think I have an old 8" floppy drive somewhere. I really need to clean out my closet lol...

[rb3m]

That's BS, Rasta. If MS hadn't contested the charges they would have lost the case, but they won, something that irks Apple fans so much that they have to keep lying about it to this day.

It was found that MS bought the same rights from Xerox, and the rest of the claim was thrown out by the court because you can't protect an idea, just the implementation of it, and MS came up with their own implementation.

Check it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applev.Microsoft

[rgreen4]

Wow - 8". Somewhere, I have an 8" floppy, but from an IBM mid-frame system. Twenty+ years ago, our data processing department had data entry machines that had replaced the old keypunch IBM 29's (remember them), the the discs were inserted into the IBM System/3 and read. Then they would run the edits. It seemed so modern then, but so archaic looking back. We of course didn't have PC's then - but we did have electronic calculators on our desks. :^0

[RastaMon]

Apple lost the case because their lawyers approved a poorly written contract to license certain aspects of the Mac GUI to MS for Windows 1.0. Apple had no intention of allowing those rights to carry over for subsequent versions of Windows, at least without further licensing fees, but the court did not interpret the contracts as limited to only Windows 1.x.

Xerox sued Apple because if it was found that the look and feel of software could be patented, Xerox should benefit, and not Apple. Their suit was dismissed.

None of these facts contradict my previous post, nor does your source indicate that Microsoft challenged the allegations that they copied the Mac GUI for Windows.

You should do some research before you start accusing people of lying.

[DoctorDoom]

Cheers rgreen4!



The really funny thing is that I think those 8" floppies only held 160k or 320k worth of data. They must have had sectors the size of your hand LMAO!!



But they sure beat card readers!!! :p

[rb3m]

Lying through your teeth, Rasta, or show me where it says that they admitted copying the GUI.

Apple licensed code to MS because they didn't think it was a threat to them and that it would never be. It was only after Windows started to look like a viable GUI that they saw a threat and sued. And MS defended themselves by saying they had a license to use that software. That's very different to what you are implying. They didn't copy, they saw something they liked and asked for permition to use it and Apple granted that permission. Big, big difference. Quit the fanboyish attitude if you want to be taken seriously.

Here, have another take at the story, this time from a Mac site: http://lowendmac.com...rd/06/0825.html

And another one, from that time: http://query.nytimes...n=&pagewanted=1

[KellieCM]

Hi Ward. You are correct that we delete posts that we feel are part of a campaign by a company or its agents to promote the company's products or to disparage its competitors or their products. it is also correct, as stated in another part of the community standards, that signatures must follow all community standards as well.

The point of item 13 is to delete posts from say, HP to hype up how awesome their printers are or smear the reputation of Canon's printers. The key words here are "by a company or its marketing or public relations agencies". Users are welcome (and encouraged) to post their experiences and recommendations for products. We welcome vendor participation, but we require that they disclose their affiliation. So a post like "Hi, I'm Joe from HP. I wanted to let you know that we have a newer model out..." would be fine, assuming that it's not part of a larger marketing or PR campaign. But just hyping a product without disclosing your affiliation with that product is not allowed. Nor is executing some sort of viral campaign within the posts on our site.

It is common in communities for users to add words or graphics to their signatures to express themselves. We allow and encourage this as long as they don't violate our standards. For example, just like we don't allow profanity, personal attacks, or pornography in posts, we don't allow them in signatures. I don't think that the presence of a Firefox (or Microsoft or Ubunu, etc) logo in a signature makes it part of a campaign by a company to promote their products. It is more likely that it is simply someone enthusiastic about the program/product. Until there is more evidence to suggest otherwise, I choose to assume good will (assume that the person is not trying to break the rules) and that the person is just an enthusiast, not a shill for a product or program.

You also mentioned that you see so many of the same signatures. First, the signature for that user appears at the bottom of every post. So for active users, you'll see it a lot. Second, some of the graphics are very common (the Firefox logo, for instance), are spread widely around the internet (there are several sites where one can obtain signature graphics), or are generated from templates (a plain black bar that a user can insert their own text on). I do not agree that the same or similar signatures automatically constitute a marketing campaign.

I hope that answers your concerns. If you have any more questions, please feel free to send me a private message or to post them in the PC World's Website section.

[mphenterprises]

Hi Number. That is a great idea. If you haven't already, can you please create a Document on how to create signatures.with pictures or images? As Techy offered, you can put it in the PCWorld Website Community.

[RastaMon]

{quote}show me where it says that they admitted copying the GUI. {quote}

If MS had not copied the Mac GUI, don't you think they would have based their defense on that? In fact, why would they have needed the license from Apple for Windows 1 if they weren't copying? After all, Windows 1 was written before Apple and MS came to a licesing agreement.

Many of Apple's claims of infringement were not covered by the license. The court found that most of these things were not protectable. The court did not decide that MS did not copy the Mac GUI. In fact, Windows' recycling bin was specifically found to be an unlicensed copy of the Mac trashcan.

Neither of your linked sources support your claims that I was untruthful in my posts. Yet you continue with the unfounded, childish accusations. If you can respond in a more mature manner, feel free (but please start a new thread so that we don't continue to hijack this one), but otherwise I'll refrain from further responses to you.

I'm not a fanboy by any means. I just get tired of hearing all the innacurate myths perpetuated by the Apple haters. There are lots of criticisms of merit that could be made against Macs, but those aren't the things that people write about in internet forums such as these, since they would require actual familiarity with the current Mac platform, as well as research.

[jruther2]

I don't fault Microsoft one bit for wanting to tidy up its code - I DO fault it for waiting far too long to do so. Software vendors have been writing around the APIs for years, trying to make Windows do things it wasn't designed to do. Microsoft let them because they make more money off business systems, and they wanted consumer versions of Windows to keep up with advances in hardware. Now we're trading some of that flexibility for an attempt at plugging some of the security holes. That requires a lot of re-engineering. Is anyone surprised that vendors aren't interested in fixing old code that isn't bringing them current revenue, much less doing so for free?
Then again, I went through all this in the Windows 3.1 to 95 transition. It hurt financially having to buy a new machine after only two years, but I got over it. I had to buy new hardware for Vista. It's the cost of progress; it's not a crime.

[WardABWE]

Thanks North & RGreen (especially the interesting tire story), but you misinterpret the car analogy. I do not know a single person that buys a computer, installs an OS, and STOPS -- installing Zero programs. The car analogy is that no one buys a car, starts the motor, and goes NOWHERE. These programs are not accessories like hubcaps or dice hanging from the rear view miror -- they are the transmission -- something that lets you go somewhere & do something.

So, if the motor does not connect to the transmission to let you go somewhere ( the OS connects to usable software to accomplish something), all you have is money spent on something perhaps pretty but unusable.

I've heard the arguments between the hardware guys vs the software guys for over 20 years -- now we have the same thing between the OS guys vs vendor guys.

Until it all is working together at the time of the sale, the average non-techie is lost. As I said, the first company to sucessfully put it all together will make a bundle from all the unhappy customers out there -- but they are the ones who keep me in business, right? With the way it seems to continue to be going, I'll have job security longer that social security is supposed to last!!!!!!!