[compguy]

I agree that linux seems to be more stable. I tried a copy of ubuntu that I downloaded from they're site on my 2 year old laptop. The installation went perfectly, Wanted to use it for awhile to see if I would make the complete jump to linux. One problem that I faced right off the bat was the time that it took from turning on the power to actually being able to use the laptop. The time was vastly different (longer) than what I was used to with XP, but I gathered that it was just because of the different way that the OS loads. Unlike the other gentleman that had the problem with his wireless card in his laptop, ubuntu recognized my broadcom card right away, and it even got me to download some updates for my laptop hardware. The only problem that I faced with using Ubuntu was with my printer setup. My printer runs through a dlink print server. That was my problem. I downloaded the drivers for the printer, had it all installed, I typed in the ip port for the printer, but low and behold no printer showed up. I tried to read up about it, but I finally found out that dlink does not support Linux using this print server. I kind of thought that D-Link would actually support Linux, but I guess that they don't feel that there is enough people using Linux to warrant them enabling Linux people to use they're products. I find that kind of stupid, because they even support Mac but not Linux. Go figure that.

[mphenterprises]

RedRat said:

All of these comments regarding Vista, XP, Linux, Apple, etc all are quite different. Your choice of operating system is going to be dependent on exactly what you want to do with your machine. Frankly, if all you are going to do is surf the net, look at a few pretty pictures, maybe download a few tunes, and do email, any OS will pretty much do it for you. If you play computer games then XP and Vista will probably have to be your choice. If you do graphic arts (photos, video, etc) you probably might want to look at Apple.


Also, your level of computer expertise will play a very important part in your decision. If you don't know how to turn the machine on or don't have a clue as to how run a program, you probably are a candidate for a Mac. If you have been around computers for a while and need business applications or home office support, then Microsoft and its OSs are for you.

Very well said, RedRat. I am sure some people will dispute your breakdown but very well said nonetheless.

[Jackie40d]

To all of you People whom cry about MS Windblows compared to Linux . . Try this one out its is a live cd of linux

www.puppylinux.com

This a very SMALL version of Linux and its got 99 % of the computers out there and the drivers for them and it is version Puppy 3.01 all of 99 megs in size so download the ISO burn it to a CD and run it ! ! You will be supprised at how fast it runs and what it can do I can run MS Doc's and stuff in the open office there . . So don't be giving me you can not run the office software on Linux . . I also would suggest you get the Linux Mandriva i586 2007.1 version DVD and put it on a spare drive . . I added everything I could and then some I even added Code Weavers Pro to it so I could load the MS XP Office Pro on to Linux and prove to people I can run your stuff and better then windows can . .cost of Linux Mandriva on DVD delivered to your HOUSE under $20.00 cost of Code Weavers Pro $60.00 and your under $90.00 . . and you said your XP Pro cost you what ? Or the version of "Vista" you paid for cost you what ? . . Let me hear how good your MS is now . . I am not a Linux booster but I like where its going and to speak of the OTHER system called Mac did you hear of the large gains in market share they made this year . . "Vista" is loved over at any Mac place all the way to the bank . .

And all this is less than the cost of XP Pro or "Vista" by its self . . You already have the MS software just add Linux and Code Weavers Pro and then load the MS software and your off and running in any office . . and as to networks What do you think runs the web ? Hummmmmmmmm ? It is not MS !

NEXT ?

I only run windows inside of Linux as some things do not as of yet run in Linux as the drivers and software are not yet made for it . . . And when Its inside of linux I will cut off Windblows in a heart beat . . And NEVER look back ! . . I got a page over on my web site you MS users should read . . Its the computer Geeks page link on the left hand side [http://www.lynns-store.com] { a Illegal Alien News Letter Now, it was a e-commerce site }

[rgreen4]

The comment about working with everything is a compilation of all the "switch to linux" posts that have appeared on PC World's community.

I posted on the Linux forum for Ubuntu, and the one post is the only response received since the original post in November.

I do not think that expecting an OS to work with the critical aspect of a PC so that it can do work is the same as expecting it to support all the tens of thousands of add on programs and speciality cards.

Linux is only free if you are blessed with unrestricted high speed internet. For those of us unfortunate enough to live in areas not served by cable or DSL, then we are hampered by dial-up or satellite. For satellite even though the speed is higher, there are restrictions on the amount you can download in 24 hours, and a full OS does not fit. The live disk the four disks of programs and the book set me back $89 after conversion from Canadian Dollars since there is no American Linux store, the closest being Canada.

People complain about 5 versions of Vista, but at least all react the same and have the same terminology, Linux has more than 5 times as many flavors, with different looks, names and terminology.

If it is so easy to get a laptop up and running on Ubuntu or any other flavor of Linux, I would challenge those of you who claim a solution to log onto the Linux forum and help those waiting on the 50 pages of postings for help. Why are the answers to Linux in the anti-Vista postings and not where adopters of Linux can get answers? Where were you when I was asking for help?

I no longer am, the Ubuntu disks are in the closet, the drives have been reformatted, the old laptop is back to XP and I have moved on. But there are still some over there asking questions.

[rodent042]

You are just an excuse machine!

"The comment about working with everything is a compilation of all the
"switch to linux" posts that have appeared on PC World's community."
And this is ubuntu's fault? You can't research for yourself? You blindly believed them and now hate them all?

"
Linux is only free if you are blessed with unrestricted high speed internet"

There are a hundred sites where you could have mail-ordered the disks for as low as $1 each. Your fault again.

"If it is so easy to get a laptop up and running on Ubuntu or any other
flavor of Linux, I would challenge those of you who claim a solution to
log onto the Linux forum and help those waiting on the 50 pages of
postings for help."

I challenge you and everyone else to use the search function and find that the question has been answered countless times. As with any help forum, first read the posting FAQ and second use the search function before asking the same question over and over. That ettiquette that has been in place since BBS days.

Again, I don't care if you use it. Stop making excuses for your lack of patience, desire and interest. This is a waste of time because it is obvious that any problem you might have had is someone else's fault.



Good day.

[JimmyDahGeek]

>> I decided my time was too valuable

Currently Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate is goining for $320 on NewEgg. If I value my time at $50 an hour I can spend 6 hours setting up an OS (Not that it would take that long) and sill come out ahead. I wouldn't be giving money to "The Evil Empire" and I would be doing something I enjoy.

[rgreen4]

I have four legal copies of Vista Home Premium. One came pre-installed on my new laptop, one came from HP as a free upgrade to my Media Center replacing XP MCE. The third came as a purchased upgrade for around $150 destined for another desktop and the fourth is a full OEM version installed on a new build for around $110. Three are installed and working perfectly.

Perhaps I should have said my time with a lack of frustration and aggrivation is worth more that that. I spent more time trying to get Ubuntu installed and communicating on one machine that I have spent on Vista getting it installed and functional on all three machines combined.

While I admit to being a newbie to Ubuntu, I am far from a newbie on computers, starting with an original IBM PC and DOS 1.0 (320KM diskettes not the 360KB that 1.1 supported).

The problem with the wireless was just the first problem. The second was after I installed it on my new build on a third drive, it would connect to the internet (Ethernet connection) but would not read any NTFS drive, nor read the NAS device with all my files. When I was told about an arcane text based fix that would read NTFS, I threw in the towel. I gave up text based patches decades ago. I'm happy with Vista and it works.

I am visiting with a friend who has a home network and converted his machine to Vista several months ago and wonders what all the fuss is about, for he has more trouble with his wife's machine (XP) than he does with his VIsta (as in no porblems). We spend a few hours off and on Christmas afternoon getting his grandson's new computer with Vista up an running with Avast and Superantispyware and he then carried it upstairs and it has been working fine ever since (with only 1GB of memory). Most of the time was downloading drivers for the wireless USB adapter, the existing printer and the two security programs, and explaining things to him.

[rkinne01]

It takes you six hours to set up an OS? You must be doing something wrong.

Bill Gates and his company has given billions of dollars to charities, they've helped set up schools, they've given away free computers to families who couldn't afford them, and multiple other deeds to help those in need. Does that sound like an "Evil Empire" to you? If you don't like a product, don't buy it! Microsoft is a businnes, thier job is make money by providing a product that people wanna buy, that doesn't make them evil.

[Pikachu]

Regarding Bill and Melinda gates: hear! hear! They do genuinely good deeds with their money and are, by me, Good People.

Btw they were recently made honorary Doctors of Medicine at Karolinska Institutet here in Sweden (an internationally acclaimed research institute which names the Nobel Prize winners in the natural sciences and medicine) for the reasons rkinne01 cites plus for providing health care and hospitals in developing countries as well as financing research into the greatest global health treats.

Doesn't sound like an "Evil Empire" to me either.

[JimmyDahGeek]

I did NOT say it took me 6 hours to set up an OS. In fact it took less than an hour. I said I could spend 6 hours @ $50 an hour and come out ahead.


" A product that people want to buy?" I don't know of anyone who rushed out and bought Vista to install on their PC. The only way Microsoft is making money on Vista is by by forcing it on people who buy new PC's and elimintaing support on their previous versions.


I did buy a new laptop for my 15 year old son that had Vista installed on it. Within 2 weeks he was asking me if I could install win2k or XP on it. He didn't like Vista at all. I told him to give it some time and get used to it. After 6 months he still didn't like it and it was running like a dog (like all Window OS's do after you use them for a while). I formated the HD and reinstalled Vista on a partition and set it up to dual boot with Ubuntu. Now he uses Ubuntu 90% of the time and he likes it a lot.


I will NEVER go out and buy Vista off the shelf. When I get a new PC I'm sure I will be forced to get a new version of Windows, but they can't force me to use it.



Edited by MPHEnterprises - No Personal Attacks

[Jackie40d]

If you read the site it says "TO BUY THE CD CLICK HERE" on several of the sites ! And to get a lot of the different versions go to here !

www.linuxcentral.com

There is Broad Band from things like Sprint or Verizon and it reaches tons of places . . Or get a thumb WiFi for what $10.00 I think last ones cost me and go to Star Bucks and drink some coffee download the ISO files and burn to a CD ! And to Rgreen4 . . There is a place on the web that has Puppy Linux and it is VERY FAST and TINY It seen the thumb WiFi and loaded it plus all the computers hardware and that was Puppy Linux 3.01 ISO and it is not so big you could not download it on dial up 99 megs . . [http://www.puppylinux.com] I ran this in a Compaq 486 Laptop with16 MEGS of ram and it had 4 megs left over to run the apps in and that is in FULL SCREEN ! It has games, and Office Programs which WILL load the MS files and run them And it ran faster than the windows 98 SE which was on the Hard Drive . . I loaded it into my OWN laptop a "VISTA" ready thing ( came with "Vista" on it ) and I got another 512 meg memory chip on sale for under $15.00 and added it but it ran like a scaled cat runing Puppy Linux in ram ( Live CD ) . . I can send the CD to you for a few dollars for playing with via Snail Mail . . It will also Install if you want to use it ( dual boot ) type thing as it will install on a windows hard drive and not mess it up . .

[JimmyDahGeek]

>> but would not ead any NTFS drive, nor read the NAS device with all my files

In less than 5 minutes I Googled "read a NTSF drive with Ubuntu" and the first hit was https://help.ubuntu....ndowsPartitions


Click Applications → System Tools → NTFS Configuration Tool*
The upcoming tool will detect NTFS partitions on your system. Check each partition you wish to access, and, if you wish to, click the mount directory to change it. When finished, click Apply*.
On the next screen Enable write support for internal device will be selected by default. Click OK*.
This doesn't look like an arcane text based fix. It almost looks like a Windows solution. <g>

[rgreen4]

Out of curiousity, I tried your link and got this:



Then when I tried the link to MountingWindowsPartitions/ThirdPartyNTFS3G there were instructions for 6.06, 6.10 and 7.04 with the last commentary over 6 months old. Nothing about 7.10 and this is the introduction:



Following the headings for the three types of Ubuntu are text based commands. You may not call them arcane, but the terminology is foreign to anyone not versed in Linux.

Most of the NTFS volumes I would have been interested in accessing are not on the systems in question, but other systems on the network and the Network Attached Storage where all my data resides. It is a moot point anyway, since I have had my dabble in Ubuntu and went back to XP and Vista which work for me.

Jackie40d - when you live out in the country as I do, Sprint and Verizon are not even on the map. My telephone provider is Windstream and although I can see the main box from my front yard they have not deemed to install the $30,000 card to enable DSL in this area. I have good cell phone service from AT&T because I am on a few miles west of I75, but 5 miles west of here we loose cellphone service until we get close to Thomasville. Starbucks in either 30 miles north in Tifton, or 22 miles south in Valdosta. On Hughesnet standard service the daily limit is 200MB and then it goes on restriction (slower than dial-up) for the remainder of the 24hours. We do have unlimited download from 3AM to 6AM but the download speed is only "up to" 750kbps. And that's at the bargain price of $60 a month! Not everyone lives in a metro area with high speed choices.

[JimmyDahGeek]

Sorry I had a typo in the url. try https://help.ubuntu....dowsPartitions. I have not tried attaching to a NAS, but I'm sure it can't be that difficult.

[rodent042]

"Perhaps I should have said my time with a lack of frustration and
aggrivation is worth more that that. I spent more time trying to get
Ubuntu installed and communicating on one machine that I have spent on
Vista getting it installed and functional on all three machines
combined."



Perhaps you should have. This is an honest and real reason. Thank you! There is undoubtedly a learning curve with linux and plenty of people don't want to take the time. I can completely understand that. I have no doubt that someday there WILL be a viable alternative but it is not ready for everyone just yet.

I, for one, am glad that there are choices. If any one company over history had managed to crush all competition, be it Apple, Amiga, Microsoft, Sun, Tandy (God help us!), whomever, we would never have seen the advances we have today.

btw, wanna talk about ugly learning curves from the past? I have one word.... edlin (shudder) I never did get the full hang of it without a cheat-sheet :P

[rgreen4]

Your not the only one. I had completely forgotten about edlin. I had to look it up on wikipedia.

Thanks for reviving the nightmare! :^0

[RedRat]

Reading these various blogs concerning the ease or difficulty with Linux are probably legitimate critiques of the system. One must keep in mind that most people here are long time Windows or Mac users who are switching over to another new and different operating system. Most have spent probably 10 years dealing with the Windows or Mac interface and have learned to do things the "Microsoft Way" or the "Apple Way". Old habit die hard.

That being said, if you are thinking of switching to Linux you must realize that it is different! You must expect that there will be a learning curve, it is going to take time. If you think that you cannot "afford" to spend several hours or days reading about Linux, then please, don't attempt to change over to Linux--stay with Windows or Mac. Think carefully about why you want to switch. There are several very good books out about Linux, I would suggest that you read those before switching and certainly go online and check out the various distros of Linux before choosing the one that you like best. For practical purposes, the basic core of Linux is the same for all distros and the differences are merely "window dressing". The one distro that seems to be geared for the first timer appears to be Ubuntu, and here you have several window dressings (quite literally): Gnome and KDE (kbunuto distro). Kbuntu probably appeals to Windows users, Gnome comes with the Ubuntu distro.

Which ever distro you choose will require effort on your part. If you are looking for a simple hand holding for the installation, then stick with Mac or Windows. Both Microsoft and Apple have spent billions on making their operating systems easy to install and use.

One warning I would give in looking for help on the Linux forums and user groups (Usenet) is that there seems to be several different types of people who seem to be willing to "help". There are those who are basically anti-social geeks who know it all are superior to you, and they want to let you and the rest of the community know it also. Sad to say you just have to put up with these people and learn to ignore them. They usually do not offer any real or significant help, just insults. There are the basic geeks who think you are just as knowledgeable as they are so they tend to use acronyms and basically their help sounds like Greek. They are well intentioned but really don't know how to pass their knowledge on to you, you may get a tidbit from them that might be helpful. Then there are the users who are both knowledgeable and recognize that they too were in the same boat you are in. They will provide the most help to you. Just be patient and wade through the rif and raf and chatter, you will get there.

[rgreen4]

That is probably the best discourse I have seen on delving into Linux. Have you considered turning that into a document and posting it in the Linux discussion area?

I attempted to shorten the learning curve by purchasing the book with all the disks, but the book really didn't delve too much into explanations or teaching the differences. It probably didn't help that it was version 7.04 v 7.10.

RedRat said:

One warning I would give in looking for help on the Linux forums and user groups (Usenet) is that there seems to be several different types of people who seem to be willing to "help". There are those who are basically anti-social geeks who know it all are superior to you, and they want to let you and the rest of the community know it also. Sad to say you just have to put up with these people and learn to ignore them. They usually do not offer any real or significant help, just insults. There are the basic geeks who think you are just as knowledgeable as they are so they tend to use acronyms and basically their help sounds like Greek. They are well intentioned but really don't know how to pass their knowledge on to you, you may get a tidbit from them that might be helpful. Then there are the users who are both knowledgeable and recognize that they too were in the same boat you are in. They will provide the most help to you. Just be patient and wade through the rif and raf and chatter, you will get there.

I don't think the Linux users have a monopoly here. Many "help" sites in Windows suscribe to that model as well. I think that one of the things about the PC World site that makes it so great is that most of us take the latter attitude. As mph is fond of saying - we were all newbies once.

I guess one thing that has helped in this regard is that for years my late sister would call for help. Stepping back and explaining to her over the telephone (she lived 750 miles away), helped me in answering questions here, but it is much more difficult, you don't know how much they know and you have to wait for a written response.

The mistake I may have made is instead of going to the Linux thread here, I went to the Linux forum, and like others starting out, probably got ignored. I note also that there are a lot of Mac postings on this community instead of their own site. Maybe they feel more comfortable over here, and I know we have several who delve into Mac's as well as Windows machines. After all they are all - personal computers.

[rodent042]

Well said, RedRat!

Rgreen, you make a valid statement as well. Anyone who has ever tried asking advice from a hardcore MCSE has fallen victim to the "Are you stupid?" glare. "You don't know about forests and trees? DUH!"

My first support job ever was for a mid-size company (around 500 employees) who's one man "network admin/support/pc tech" guru had all of the social skills of a sheet of plywood. I was quite literally hired because people hated him and would rather muddle through their jobs than ask him for assistance. They exist somewhere in every office and forum.

[RedRat]

Actually no I had not thought about that. To be truthful, I thought my comments here were apropos with this current thread. I don't consider myself an experienced Linux user, barely out of the newbie state would be more accurate I guess. I too have had to hit forums and usenet groups (mostly alt.os.linux.ubuntu and alt.os.linux.pclinuxos) and the Ubuntu forums. I have found that the forums are helpful but then you do have to wait for a reply since I think people pop in and then pop out. The usenet community seems a bit faster but that is where you run into the knowitalls and you will suffer through the insults. The good thing about the usenet groups is that you can usually use your newsreader to "plonk" them so it just ignores their replies or comments. But I have found helpful comments there, but you do have to pick and choose through a lot of chatter.

Yes I know that books are hard to come by with the continuous updating of Ubuntu. These updates come at 6 month intervals, the next one is due in April of next year (it will be 8.04). Because of writing and printing schedules, it would be practically impossible to have a book and release version coincide. But most of these releases are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. I think the most significant change that has come was the release of the 2007 versions. I suspect that next years versions will be mostly tweaking and improvements in the interface. I have not gotten as far as being a beta tester yet. I do believe there is a book out covering 7.04 though.

Thanks for your comments. I write here really based on my own experiences with computers that covers the past 25 years or so.