[gamedude]

>The game is on the shelves at Toys R Us because Toys R Us WANTS IT THERE.

It is there because the industry has made it so they can't afford to not have it there.

The industry is making huge money off of selling adult games to kids.

It is not only toys r us problem, it is the whole industry that is messed up. They can't figure out a way to sell adult games just to adults. Probably the real problem is that they don't want to. Too much money in selling shooting hookers to kids.

[mcbarker]

Gamedude, you're flogging a dead horse here. We all know that industry doesn't care about us personally, and that they're only out to make money off of us... yada yada yada. The same applies to almost everything we buy, If you feel so strongly about it, then I suggest you take it up with your local senator or congressman... and good luck with that.

[jordanlund]

"
The industry is making huge money off of selling adult games to kids."

Kids don't have the $60 to $90 required to buy Grand Theft Auto. (I spent $90 on my limited edition version). This is why the average age of video game buyers is 40. The average age of video game players is lower, 35. According to industry stats 86% of game buyers are over the age of 18.

Kids aren't the target market because it's adults who have the money.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/

"The average game player is 35 years old and has been playing games for 12 years."

"The average age of the most frequent game buyer is 40 years old. In 2008, 96 percent of computer game buyers and 86 percent of console game buyers were over the age of 18."

[kirawats]

What the parents are doing these day? Why parents buy GTA for their kids to play? Isn't games supposed to be mindlessly entertainment form instead of educational media? It's sound just like the parents who bring their kids to watch splatter horror movies with lots of violence and blame on the movie, but not themselves.

[PatuxetnBBall]

gamedude, you forget that the game is rated M 17+ meaning toys r aus, best buy, gamestop, all have policies blocking anyone under 17 from buying the game, that means they have to have someone else buy it for them. Do you know who that person usually is? The parents. Show any of us 1 study actually linking violence to video games, a real study not the fabricated statistics used on cnn and fox news and what not, and people might take you seriously







Edited by MPHEnterprises - No Personal Attacks

[PatuxetnBBall]

sorry for the "personal attack" (artistic license excersiced by "MPHEnterprises" in that definition) it must be because I played GTAIV earlier.

[gamedude]

PatuxetnBBall, you don't really need a study. It is all common sense. All art forms affect you. Books, Movies, Paintings and especially Games. To say games don't affect you is to say you don't learn anything from reading a book.

With games, the affect is more pronounced. Instead of just reading about Civilization, I spent hours and hours living through it. Instead of watching a movie with close quarters combat, I spent hours and hours experiencing it with Quake. Mario Kart gave me carple tunnel, along with a good sense of how to take a turn.

So good or bad, like everything else, games are affecting you, and in a definitely different way than books or movies.

I do think the point is moot though in this discussion, as the game already has a 17+ label on it. So it doesn't matter. We as a society already have a gut sense that kids shouldn't be playing these games.

But, I just find it odd when gamers proudly claim that games don't effect you. It is insulting to games.

Now, does it make you evil to play an game where your character is evil? Probably not.

Does it give you information on how to be evil, if you are ready to be evil? Does it help to get you ready? Probably.

I think it is foolish to think that running around shooting in the halls of Doom didn't help those kids from Columbine get ready for running around their hallways. Just as books and movies and internet and any other things providing information help them out. But the games have the added feature of actually training your brain to deal with an environment, just like the army uses simulations.

Did it make them do it? Nah. Did it help? Of course.

[PatuxetnBBall]

The about-face you did there was amazing. That post sounded much more logical thn your previous. However, please research a little into that "link" between Colombine and Doom. That is Fox news looking for blame when there is none. Not through the normal hyped-media(NBC, CNN) please, the real study about the Doom-Colombine link.

Plus doom would be a horrible training tool, Wolfenstein 3d would be much better /sarcasm

Games don't train. If mario kart taught you how to take a turn, do you power slide around every street corner? How about blasting red koopa shells at the slow granny in front of you. By your logic, playing Resident evil on the wii give me a huge leg up during the impending zombie uprising. Or with Call of Duty 4 i can skip boot camp and go straight to the front lines ( okay I'm exxagerating what you said, but you get the counter-point)

I'm not saying games don't effect you. GTAIV is a great stress relief where we can blow through red lights at 120mph and run into other cars without insurance premiums skyrocketing. At the end of the day we know the people we "nudged" with the bumper aren't people, they're snippets of code, albeit realistic snippets of code.

If the kid who's playing the game can't tell the difference, then the adult who bought the game for them has failed them in both raising them and purchasing a mature game for the immature.

I personally think that using games as a scapegoat for bad things is absolutely ridiculous and is just that, an excuse for poor judgement by the person who alos happens to play video games.

[gamedude]

"Games don't train"

Of course games train. Racing is a great example. NASCAR drivers use nascar racing sim games to practice. Just with Mario Kart you are trained how to find the line to take turns.

Plus. Psycologically, games can put you in the "place" of a situation. When someone has a fear of flying, the best way to get over it is to have a situation that mirrors flying. So people get used to it. Of course, realistic 3D games can do the same thing.

By the way, just so you know, i'm not a fox watching religious right wing nut. I just don't like the BS coming out of the game community when they give reasons why it is okay that GTA is marketed and sold to kids.

[jordanlund]

" I just don't like the
BS coming out of the game community when they give reasons why it is
okay that GTA is marketed and sold to kids."



That's just it though... there isn't any evidence that GTA is being marketed and sold to kids. Like I said before, kids don't have the bank to buy the game. The average age of game buyers is 40. Average age of game players is 35. 86% of console gamers are aged 18 and over. What is so hard to understand about that?

Yes, Toys R Us carries the game, but that's not "marketing to kids" since TRU abides by the rating system and doesn't sell M rated games to those under age.

[gamedude]

It really is simple.

If it is in a kid's toy store, it is marketed to kids.

If the publisher and industry cared about the rating, they wouldn't sell it into a kid's toy store.

[Evildave]

I honestly can't credit any of the anti-GTA IV sentiment I've read here as anything more than idle, run of the mill forum trolling.

If it's in Toys R Us, then it's Toys R Us that's selling it. Go whine at their corporate office. The publisher isn't going to spend any time chasing away retail chain buyers any more than a donut shop will shoo away fat people.

As far as video games 'training', I guess you folks never heard of training videos? That's right. If GTA is 'training', then Texas Chainsaw Massacre is a how-to video for chainsaw operation. Yupper. That makes 'Debbie Does Dallas' and 'Deep Throat' how-to videos targetted at kids, too. After all, since kids could get their hands on GTA IV, they could just as easily get their hands on porn. As if porn and snuff videos galore aren't all over the interwebz.

I just booted up GTA 4 and played it for 20 minutes. Only killed one bystander trying to find my way through town, and that by accident. If you don't like my driving, stay out of the park. Super pretty game.

[souljaboya1]

gamedude i must say that you are very passionate about your position, however i must disagree with you about your comment that the army uses games for tactics training. A more accurate representation of what you are trying to say would be that the military uses simulators in order to provide a 3 dimenemsional representation of what has already been taught.

Now before you reply i will allow you and the rest of this forum to stand in my shoes for a second. I was raised by a single parent (mother), grew up in a rough neighborhood in Central New Jersey, and the first game console my mother bought me was a playstation circa 1996. I did own other systems, ( NES and Sega Genisis) however they were hand-me-downs from relatives. My mother's reason for not buying me a game system until i was in the sixth grade was simply that she did not agree with the content of some of the games. And the games that i did own were limited to very cartoony games such as mario and sonic the hedge hog, contra, eventually crash bandicoot and others. My mother limited the time i spent playing even these unrealistic games probably until i was old enough to work and buy them for myself, ( i didn't get an allowance for doing chores ) which was around the time i was in the ninth grade. By then i was less impressionable able to tell right from wrong and knew the difference from a game and reality. When i did play a violent game my mother chastised the game, much like she did when she first saw me play GTA IV. However she is confident that she raised me properly and knows that even though i enjoy climbing to the highest building in the game and sniping anyone that crosses my scope, because of her excellent parenting i could not bring myself to actually do those things in real life to real people.

Now I do agree with you that a kids store where i can buy barney and dora the explorer toys for my niece should not be selling a game intended for adults, however they, as a supplier in a free and open market such as the one that our military fights to "protect," have every right to sell anything that they want to ( providing that it's legal). You as a consumer in that same market have every right not to purchase their products.

The best and worst thing about our economy is that the supply side of the market only cares about two things, and that's profit and bottom line. If you wish to change the way the market works it's not with legislation (business have lawyers to get around that). The best way to affect producers, distributors, and merchants is with the almighty dollar, because as we all know money talks.

As far as the militay using games as a training tool i must say that your somewhat misinformed. We do not use games to train tactis, we are given rigorous instruction on close quarters combat, use of equipment and survivability. And i must say that if i ever tried anything i saw in a video game during training, let alone in combat, i'd be flagged for a safety violation so fast i'd get whiplash. I will tell you that the only time i have ever used a game or simulation during training in the military it has been in a closed, controlled and closely supervised enviroment, where the trainer "killed" you for doing anything that would get you killed in real life up to and including driving recklessly. Oh, and the simulation is only used after recieving untold amounts of instruction, training, and evaluation in a classroom enviroment and in the field. I can't really tell much more about our simulators, but know they are far more advanced than anything every published on any game console ever made. Honestly the simulator argument would work best with a game like Ace Combat and the Airforce since the advent of UAV's. If that were your argument i would agree with you, however i'm sure that there is an airman out there that would disagree with me on the similarities between flying an F-22 in a vidoe game and piloting a multimillion dollar UAV in real life.

With all that said, i'd say i've been playing video games for about 15 years, violent games for about 9 or 10 years, and i am yet to emulate anything i've ever seen in a video game. The sad truth is that video games like all art don't teach and train, art reflects life, not the other way around. Mostly anything that has happened in a video game has already happened in real life and can be found online or in the news, so if we're going to censor and restrict video games we might as well censor and restrict the internet and the news and any other media that may show anything other that the standard two story 4 bedroom home with a white picket fence and a mommy and daddy and 2.5 kids etc.......

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that kids should be allowed to have certain things, however the sole responsibility for the education, and moral upbringing of children is their parent or legal guardian, not the law or some arbitrary rating system.

I hazard to assume that you're ok with the game being sold it a store such as sam goodey, best buy, or game stop, so if it's the fact that the game is sold in kids stores than that is where your argument sould be. So on that point i will agree with you if it has a mature rating a kids store shouldn't sell it, however it's not the industry or the publisher's responsibility. By your own logic it's the store that's marketing it to kids based on the fact that they are a kids store and they carry a game with a mature rating. with that in mind you should take up your fight with the store and their policies, not the industry. The mere fact that the industry stands by the ESRB and the publisher voluntarily submit it's games for review show a certain level of responsibility. The ultimate responsibility falls on those who purchase the game and allow it's use in their household.

The bottom line is this, if you don't like it don't buy it, if you don't want your kids to have it don't buy it for them, regardless of marketing consumers still have the freedom to choose what they will and will not spend their money on and the market will respond in kind.

[gamedude]

>however the sole responsibility for the education, and moral upbringing of children is their parent or legal guardian, not the law or some arbitrary rating system.
>consumers still have the freedom to choose what they will and will not spend their money on and the market will respond in kind.


As much as you and I would like to believe in these ideals, and I do agree with you on them, it just ain't true.


Our nation, if you are from the US, does many many things to help, protect and guide its citizens. We don't just leave it up to the parents.


We make sure everyone is educated.


We have police to keep criminals away.


We have guidelines on toys.


I could on...


Why?


Because we will always have things like Toys R Us selling M games to kids, and knuckleheaded uninformed parents buying it for them.


So, don't use 'let freedom ring'... 'it's up to the parents!'...'the market will handle it'... as an argument. Because things don't work that way in reality.




>As far as video games 'training', I guess you folks never heard of training videos?


You are comparing a game to a video?


Do you even play games?


Games are a whole different level of experience than sitting there just watching something.


Don't use "it is just like a video!" as an argument.


It is insulting to games.

[souljaboya1]

I'm not disagreeing with your entire arguement, just part of it. I don't agree with the part where you suggest that the ESRB should be forced to repeal their original rating and tag GTA IV as adults only, if children wanted it that bad they'd have there parents go online and buy it there. the rating won't stop ill-informed parents from giving it to there children. Did you know that in some states it is perfectly legal for parents to give their children (and only THEIR children) alcohol as long as it stays in their legal place of residence is not in the presence of other minors and providing a reasonable prudent person could not deem the minor to be inebriated? I don't know anyone that gives their children alcohol, but it's there and it's a law. I mention that to say this, the law will only go so far as to tell parents how to raise their children. The rating won't do much to change the targeted audience nor will it do much to change who actually uses the product. What i'm saying is that mature responsible people should be allowed to use a product that they can handle mentally.

What i'm gathering from your arguement is that you want some agency other than the parents to tell the parents what their children can and can't have based on what the general population feels is socially acceptable. or in other words make it a law, because that is one of the only ways to enforce the ESRB rating, since you and both know that business will continue to do whatever they can get away with in order to make a profit.

To be honest i don't see this merely an issue with the video game industry, but an issue with society as a whole and attempting to enforce a standard like this only serves to alienate certain members of society and cast them to be misfits and degenerates. I could subscribe to so many fallacious arguments on this by suggesting that more strict video game rating systems will lead us on a path to a totalitarian government, but it's already been said, and any reasonable person knows that that is very unlikely. However, laws like the one i suggested only treat the symptom and not the cause. And i believe the the cause to be the lack of education and involvement among parents. I would never let my neice or my non-existant children play a game as violent as this because i know how impressionable they can be and i know the content of the game. i will, however, sit down and enjoy an hour or two of gameplay myself, because i know that i am mature enough to handle anything i see in the game and recognize it as not real.

American society has already spoken on the issue, by allowing the ESRB to rate games and inform us that one is intended for mature audiences only we have accepted the precedent set forth by them. I'm not saying that the system should stagnate and not evolve, however we can not force them to change their rating system to suit our tastes every time a game comes out. if this were the case there would be no need for the ESRB because each person has their own personal belief structure. so the focus shouldn't be on changing the rating rather we should focus on informing parents of what it is that their children are involved in.

The purpose of our government shouldn't be to tell it's citizens how to live. the purpose of the government should be to educate train and inspire it's citizens to become intelligent productive members of society, not by "censorship" but by information. It seems to me that in this information age little information is actually passed along.

Government intervention should be the last straw in a situation like this. The key is to inform those knuckle headed unimformed parents to the danger that they are putting their children's minds in and help educate those children that video games are not real and should not be emulated, and i have to say that starts at home with the parents. The larger problem seems to be that we as Americans are slowly losing the ability to think for ourselves, we seem to be unable to cohabitate with one another without a proverbial chaparone to tell that we have to play nice with the other kids and there's no video game out there that can pin the blame on or call the lynchpin of the downfall of American morality.

In a way i agree with you, if left to our own devices we as a union would fall into chaos. However as i stated before there is no amount of government oversight that will curtail this problem without a firm education system in place to inform citizens on what they should expect from their government and what society expects from them. Yes it is up to the parents, however it's up to the education system to ensure that those parents are informed and not knuckleheads, and hopefully armed with that information they will make the right decision on what to purchase for their kids. Which will eventually affect the market and the market should respond. no the world isn't perfect and i know just how reality works, but if we jsut sit back and let someone think for us what good will that do?

BTW yes a am a proud US citizen and soldier so as long as i'm sworn to uphold and protect the constitution of these united states i will always use the argument let freedom ring.

PS a touch of humor

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?"
-Bender

[iMotionsrt4]

"If you make the decision to not have your kids play games like this, it is impossible. Because the billion dollar industry is marketing and selling these games for adults to your kids in every manner possible."

I believe your logic is flawed. I'm not seeing nor have I seen any way this game has been marketed directly towards kids. Ok so it's on the side of busses and trains, maybe a building or poster in a window that kids can see. But I still fail to see how this marketing is focused on children. The commercials aren't playing between any childrends shows that I know of. It's not impossible, it's just that people suck at being parents. And personaly responsibility is a thing of the past.....whatever happens, it's always somebody else's fault.

Reguardles of whatever "marketing" reasons you believe are at fault, there is STILL no excuse for a child under 17 to get the game. MOST times the parents purchase the game. Occasionally retailers don't follow their own rules about selling mature games without checking ID's but it all boils down to parental responsibility. It's not the responsibility of the retailers to keep track of children. They are out to get money and could care less who they sell the game too, and like I said that's one of the problems, but it's not their problem, it's just not.

Parents need to start being parents, and stop falling victim to getting their kids what they want just to shut them up.

[gamedude]

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?"

Isn't this part of GTA? ;)

[iMotionsrt4]

Actually no, that isn't part of GTA.

Do you even play games?

If so, what games do you own/like to play?

[gamedude]

>Actually no, that isn't part of GTA.

Was joking.

>Do you even play games?

Of course, I play 'em all. Civ, Halo, GTA, Mario Kart, Zelda... etc.

Doesn't stop me from seeing how parents are having trouble dealing with companies selling Adult games to their kids, and how the industry doesn't understand why.

[souljaboya1]

Like i said i don't fully disagree with you, it's just that as long as these types of games exist children will find ways to play them. they will be children. I mean i'm sure when you were a kid, i know when i was if i were watching a movie and an unexpected part came that my mother didn't want me to see she covered my eyes, which of course always made me more interested in what was happening. But my mother did what she thought was best for me, not what was convenient for her. and she went out of her way to try to shield me from things she found inappropriate. And if I were interested enough i found ways to see whatever it was she tryed to hide ( usually with no luck). But as most young bouys have we peeked at our dad's/uncle's/grandpa's porn collection, and i'm happy to say that i'm just as well ladjusted as can be, not a sexual diviant, or rapist, just like most anybody that has ever seen porn. But if my mother knew i saw it, which she usually knew i did, she explained what was going on, punished me for looking at it behind her back and confronted my (insert random male authority figure here) and tryed to ensure i couldn't get it again. She didn't blame the industry, and we all know how sex is marketed towards everybody! she didn't push for tougher laws and standards, she blamed herself for not knowing what i was up to and attempted to correct it. Like i said it all starts with the education system.