[Bartylby]

I agree coastie that it probably CAN be done, but for a ml of ink or a few mg of pigment...it is not currently worth investing in the tech at this time. Otherwise it just makes a black like liquid. Maybe that could be used for dyestuffs? Hmm...an idea...as long as it is a dark shade... :o). Thanks.

[SPIKEMAN]

Yes, I agree with everything You mentioned and stand for. I usually try to go green even though way back no one though about it! Years ago, I was in the air cond. service (part time). Made a habit of doing everything as safe and clean as possible! For my own use, I reworked motors, compressors, etc. Of course I didn't use the recycled parts for a customer unless they were unable to pay list prices and fully understood what the part was. Most of the time I never even charged for some of the parts. Here in the Desert, it gets well into the 100 to 116 area and a family with children that is just barely scraping ends together still have to live and need some cooling also. It made me feel better just knowing that the children were not suffering from the heat and could be somewhat more comfortable! As most of the time the materials used was very inexpensive and what I was donating didn't cost excessively. Mostly blower motors were the coulprits. With access to a hydraulic press and shaft material didn't cost much, also bearings a few cents each, I could afford to help some.

Yes, again the ink in the leftover cartridges is mostly foam but if it is drawn out immediately, settles to the orig. ink.. Not worth it I'm sure for commercial but own use could be quite a savings. Haven't had any problems with burnouts. Like my other post states, I use only Epson printers so have very little experience with other cartridges. As you mentioned, the salvage cartridges are sometimes in unusable condition and have to be recycled to plastic etc. This is I'm sure what all the OEM suppliers want! Sell more expensive ink cartridges!

The ink is another very important part of the complete process. I have tried several different types of ink and settled on the one I am using now. It don't appear to fade or go dim, smudge or any unwanted condition. At this moment, I have a photo outside taped to my out building storage shed in the direct sunlight approx 6 hours a day, (on the west side) where the sun is at this moment . Air temp approx. 107 and was higher yesterday. Plan to leave there for a week just to see how durable the ink and paper really is! I used "Kirkland 4x6 photo paper". If any fading or ? appears, will try another paper from Red River Paper. Want to know exactly which one is the best! A photo is a point in time to never be again! If for some reason the photo is the only source or all other copies etc are lost, I would like it to last as long as possible.

Do you have a store for ordering ink and supplys? Would like to test some of your ink. Maybe it is better than what I use. I read one post in another forum where the person was capturing the excess ink from the printer cleanings diverted to a bottle and using it for black ink! He was very positive about the sharpness, bright black etc condidion it provided for black only printing! Haven't tried it myself but was w ondering if it really does work.

As far as the CISS units go, I have been using my r300 printer CISS unit for almost 2 years and not a pip at all. It usually cleans itself every few days. Never turn off the main power, just use the power button on the unit. I think this is the way to go for anyone printing photos , or any large volume printing use. Haven't documented the amount of ink per page use as it is of no interest to me being that it is very cheap to use. I have 2 Epson stylus PHOTO 925 printers now just sitting in storage, hope they will not dry out before I get a use for them. Had some problem with the CISS unit (on the 925 Printer) and found that the China units are no better than the local third party cartridges! The cart. is of the exact nature as third party carts! Went to a new OEM cart, converted it to CISS and had no problems. Haven't used it long enough to really state the total effect of high use or not. Being retired with a sick Wife who requires 24/7 care, O2, and very weak. I have little time to do much of anything extra.

Hope You had a good 4th, I didn't do anything more than usual, just watched for fireworks which may fall on the roof! One little pop hit the metal patio room, nothing esle was detected.

SPIKEMAY

[coastie65]

Hi all, I just take my "Empties" ( after following this thread, I believe that may be debatable) to Staples. I have long reached the point that if it can reused or recycled, then it goes to the appropriate place. About all that goes to the landfill is the biodegradable garbage. That having been said, I am a little wary of remanufactured Ink cartridges although I do use recycled printer paper as it is cheaper. I guess there are some that need that high dollar bonded stuff, But I'm not one of them. coastie

[gawami]

Advoc, I just looked at my print which I left out in the sun (in a baggie) for 10 days with foil over half. I'm happy to report the Stratitec ink faded not at all. If you recall, this print was of a blanket of fall leaves , so has many browns, yellows and reds mixed in. Looks just as it did when I put it out there.

[MacHelp]

Ink jet ink?!?! Are you crazy? Do you know what that stuff costs? How about $11,000 a gallon!!! [It's simple - just do the math. $10 for a 3.5 milliliter cartridge. 3785 milliliters to the gallon. Divide $ by milliliters to get the cost per $. Multiply that by 3785 and you get, in this case, $10,814.29. Gasp! That's why printer companies want/demand you purchase their ink. But in reality, 3rd party inks aren't a lot cheaper. And that's why I migrated to color lasers.

Here's a easier way to look at this issue:
On an ink jet, color pages cost around $.75 per page. B&W about $.22

On my first color laser (Xerox 6120n) color pages were about $.15. B&W were about $.019
On my current color laser (Xerox 8560n) color pages are about $.095. B&W were about $.012

Anyone who is still using an inkjet - I don't want to hear any moaning about $4 gallon gasoline.

[Bobran]

For a sec, I thought you were blaming this on George Bush too!

[advoc8]

Yes, it is indeed George Bush's fault, and George Washington's fault and any "George" who supports free market. Thank goodness we aren't in a communist or non free-market country where we may have little or no choice and this article and whole discussion would be irrelevant...

[advoc8]

Bottom line on refills vs OEM inks:



As for the awful looking print-banding results shown in the article, most other refill enthusiasts and I don't have that problem, and when some of us have in the past, we know what caused it and why and how to avoid and fix it (clogged print heads or cheap or outright bad print heads that come with some printers). I have not had this problem with my current printer (Canon MP530), but I did always have that problem eventually after one to three refills with my old Lexmark printer due to the print heads being part of the cartridge AND being designed so cheaply (truly disposable) that they would clog and fail when refilled between one and three times, with even the best refill inks. This is a well known fact among refill enthusiasts. Anyone can find plenty on the internet on refilling made easy and very successful. The Lexmark ink cartridges were usually good for just one refill, but sometimes not even that. Still way too expensive per page or per photo print in the end. That's why others and I stay away from Lexmark and similar printers which are the cheapest to buy, while their cartridges are the most expensive for the ink volume and most troublesome to refill.



Printers like that just end up more expensive to print with if you like to print a lot, whether you refill or not. And for those who try to print as little as possible to save on the printer maker's ver expensive inks, that just makes things even worse. The print heads clog even worse with little use and sometimes you can't get them unclogged to finnish using the original ridiculously full-priced cartridge. It's much better to just be able to refill easily, with good quality refill inks, and be able to print all the great looking fade-resistant photos and pages you want without thinking of how much it is costing. In the end, using it lots also means less or no clogging and banding.



Canons, HP's and Epsons are generally popular choices for refilling provided the print heads are not on the cartridge and each color of ink is in it's own little ink-tank. I suppose you could run into more clogging problems if you got some very poor quality ink that jams up easier, but the opposite is more often true (easy-flowing refill inks). Most people who refill just don't have this problem of clogging if they are not using printers resembling the Lexmark style cartridges with on-cartridge "disposable" and cheap print heads. More often you may get refill ink (especially "universal ink" - same ink used for all types of printers - not the best way to go) that goes through the print head very easily due to the manufacturer using more solvents to assure no clogging. That can lead to photo prints fading, even if they look great at first. As I said earlier, color match with the OEM inks can be nice, but sometimes a non-perfect color matching ink may look even better than the OEM inks, though some are definitely worse looking. As for the chips that most of these printers now have (which are supposed to keep you from refilling), you can find easy instructions for resetting them (or bypassing some) on the internet.



I would like to hook up a CISS to my printer which is even easier than refilling individual cartridges - Continuous Ink Supply System. It takes a bit more money to do initially but saves some time on your very cheap refilling in the end. CISS is great for people who really print a lot or would really love to print a lot. CISS' have ink tanks external to your printer that hold the equivalent of about 10 to 20 refills of each color of ink in each tank, with thin supply lines into your printer. The only problem is finding a bulk ink to fill and refill your CISS that is both good in color and especially in fade resistance for my photographic focus. Calidad (I get mine on eBay) is great ink for general printing and especially for photo use, but it only comes in small easy-refills, but still isn't too expensive at all. I'm sure that the Consumer Reports refill ink tests didn't test this ink either (or some other good inks), or their results and conclusions would and should have been very different on both price and quality.



Fade resistance is a big concern for me with photos when using common less-thick dye-based inks like Canon, HP and many other printers use. I don't think fade resistance for photos should be as big of a problem with the thicker pigment-based inks like Epson uses since I would suspect that pigment-based inks should naturally be more fade-resistant anyway (just an unverified assumption). But remember, the quality of photo paper you print on is as important as the ink quality. I have found that I can buy Staples Photo Supreme print paper for very reasonable prices If I just watch for their very best sales. This helps a lot too, on cost and quality both.



I've seen many Epson CISS's on eBay. But, in the short run (and even in the long run) refilling cartridges individually (rather than using a more convenient CISS) with good quality refill ink is the cheapest. It just takes a little extra time, especially the first time. But, once you know your cartridge and how to refill it, it's not hard or really time-consuming at all. Great and easy instructions are often included right with the refill kit, and definitely are available by doing an easy search on the internet. I just refilled my ink tanks the other day, all 5 of them in just 10 minutes. Now that just isn't a whole lot longer than it takes to unwrap and change out 5 new and much more expensive OEM ink cartridges. Some don't like the potential mess of refilling, but there is lots of great anti-mess advice included with many refill kits and also easily found on the internet.



Those who do these ink testing studies don't seem to focus on finding the best quality refill inks (the OEM's were allowed to put their very best foot forward). They seem to take the random approach instead, just testing some the of the easiest to obtain and most common inks to buy locally, which may still be fine for many, but not for some of us who want better quality and still the lowest cost possible. that seems to be the real bottom line. This is just one of the two reasons why PCW's tests seemed to me and to many others to be a bit off, in addition to the unintentionally misleading print-banding results which they didn't explain the possible roots of.



Still, PCW's refill ink test results were better than Consumer Reports' tests which surprisingly concluded that you don't save money by refilling! What utter garbage! It would be very nice to see someone do some more fully scientific testing, comparing and analysis, and see them get some feedback and reviewing of their results and of their conclusions before revising and publishing. OK, I can dream, can't I?

[stevenjw]

Being a person who likes to test and compare I have done my own survey since November Th 2007.

Note: ( this test was done using cartridges till there was fading not when printer marked change cartridge.)

A HP 21="5-ML" purchased at staples=O.E.M. black cartridge for $17.99 lasted 170 copies.

A HP21="14-ML" Re-fill from cartridge world black cartridge for $12.99 lasted 201 copies.

A HP 21="5-ML" Re-fill from Walgreen's black cartridge for $10.00 lasted 166 copies.

With cartridge world they quote almost three times the ink. You do save $4-$5 and get 31 more copies. I

found quality of cartridge world better then Walgreen's but not by much. Thank You.

[tomashley]

This is HP's response:






The Inkjet Printing Blog










Edited by MPHEnterprises - Please refer to Point #5 of the {document:id=1000}. "When posting articles or news reports (including PC World articles or news reports) for discussion, please post only a few sentences or paragraphs and include a link to the rest of the content on the original site. Do not post articles, news reports, or other copyrighted material in their entirety unless you have written permission from the relevant copyright owners."

[stevenjw]

Thank You Tomashley I am not really being all that scientific. The first cartridge was the o.e.m. h.p. then cartridge world then h.p. then Walgreen's. This is a consumer test just Joe Consumer getting x= number of copies. Using average settings.

[Skullywag]

I was shocked PC Worlds list only included "refilled cartridges". Where's the bulk ink links? I have been refilling Epson and Canon printers for 10 years with excellent results.
The new trend is putting chips on cartridges to force you buy THEIR brand of ink. This should be criminal, it's like Ford saying you can only use Castrol oil in their cars and void your warranty if you use Havoline. The excuse that 3rd party ink will "damage" your printer is a bald faced lie... I know, I've refilled too many to believe that junk.
People think that the price of gas is unrealistic...Ha! What if you went to the pump and it refused to let you buy any other grade than Premium (even though reg is avalable), and the pump only gave you half a gallon for every gallon you paid for? The fact is the major printer companies have been putting less and less ink in every cartridge every year,raised the price, and most do not even put the mil of ink in the cartridge on the box any more...they like their customers to be surprized.
Good new is that cartridges that are MADE to be refilled,and have chips that "reset" themselves every use are readily available all over the net. Down with the tyrants!!!

[SPIKEMAN]

Hello Skullywag!

You said it all! Except, You left out an important part!

You forgot to mention the CISS units! Thes use BULK ink and work beautifully! I have been using one for several years and have saved a ton of money! So much better than having to refill cartridges, have done a lot of this also. Just a few cc of ink in a cartridge can not in any way compare to several ounces in a Ciss unit! Amount in the tanks depend on the size of supply tanks/bottles. Just inject ink directly in the tanks when they get low, Mine last for several months and I do quite a lot of printing photos etc...

BIG BUSINESS! This is the end result! Agreeably they have to make a profit and without that, We would not even have the printers to start with! They are like the sellers of the bulk gasoline, hoggish! With the freedom of being allowed to do whatever you want to do, greed takes over and We pay the price!

How far is it going before it is realized that We have had enough of the gouging? The answer is, if We, as laymen had enough money and pull to start Our own manufacturing plants and provide EVERYONE with a reasonable price EXCELLENT quality printer and ink, maybe things would change. Yes, We would have a great fight on Our hands as They would not want to allow compitition! Since this probably will not ever be, I'll have to go along with You and all the rest just to do what I can to save the most money in whatever way that is available wheather it be refilling or CISS.!!!!!!!!!!!!

SPIKEMAN

[webbkenwebb]

Let me share my complaint to databazaar.com.
Received order on Friday, 8/1/08. Cartridge is defective. Printer will not respond with your COMBC20 in it. When I install it in the printer, the printer beeps several times, and then the light on the front of the printer continuously blinks between green and orange. Both this cartridge and the one before it, which this one replaced, malfunction in the same manner. When I reinstall two old, empty OEM Canon cartridges, the printer responds normally. Neither of your COMBC20's are "new compatibes" as you advertised. They are either factory-defective OEM Canon BC20's or defective refilled OEM Canon BC20's. The reason I say that is because both of your COMBC20's have a "compatible" label attached over an OEM Canon cartridge label. Also, all other "permanent" markings and designs are perfectly identical to OEM Canon BC20 cartridges.

[jcricket]

I have a HP Business Inkjet 1200, and tried re-manufactured ink cartridges. Print quality did not seem to be an issue, BUT the HP 1200 system detects the manufacture date burned into the cartridge, and determines if the cartridge is out-dated (as well as empty) and will not print if either of these conditions exist.

I found that by setting the system date to last year (some date acceptable to the printer/ink cartridge), made the cartridge work, but had other system complications i.e Anti-Virus updates, VPN issues etc...

I worked around the issue by networking an older PC with my primary system, and attaching the pinter to the older system (Where the date could be set without effecting programs used every day).

I also found that even setting the date to an acceptable one for the printer, was not sufficient when I printed from some applications i.e. photo editing software. The work around was to make the printer perform a test page print at startup, and then all other print requests would process normally.

In this case the cost of using remanufactured ink is the cost of a cheap KVM switch, the FUN of making it work reliably, and the cost of electricity to keep the second PC running and ready to print when the command if issued.

Jim Garrett

[Joseph2008]

I work in the printer repair shop and have seen too many ink jet printers damaged with refills and third party refills. Damaged print heads, over flowing ink pads and running out all over ones desk due to the waste in pad getting full from the ink. The print problems are bad prints for pictures and often bad colors. It's best to stay with name brand for that printer. And save your printer from damage and making a mess. Print heads can coast a lot to replace and if you stay with name band ink most times print heads will last a long time. On some printers the test page can tell you how long the print head has been in use and the date installed. When the print needs to replaced the printer will let you know by telling your PC the head in use and if it has multi heads which one to replace. Also it will tell you when the ink is old if you don't use the printer much. This is done with a built chip in the ink cartridge. So use third party ar your own risk.

[Bartylby]

I thought this was a done thread until I read that last post! What printers do you repair, may I ask? Or is it "general repair"? Printers are so cheap you've gotta almost be outta business in this throw away world! Look folks...Waste your money if you want. Waste all the resources you want. What you're seeing is the "drill and fills", the clones (knock-offs) and the rip-offs causing the problems. Please, I ask everyone interested in remanufactured inkjets to do your homework and buy from reputable remanufacturers. Until OEM comes up with something different, a different technology for printing, remanufacturing of printing technology is going nowhere FAST! I am a remanufacturer, not some guy filling ink by hand (which almost anyone can do, by the way, with the right refill kit, again from a reputable source, to help reduce e-waste). I have print shops that buy 100's of recycled, remanufactured, cartridges! They can't get enough! I have manufactures buying line-printer inkjets that buy specialized inks from me. I have graphic artists buying from me. I have to turn away a large bulk buyers to serve my own Customers. I use patent pending, stringent procedures. I use the chemical equivalent of OEM inks. I use the latest machines and technology to recapture a squandered product. I PROFESSIONALLY reuse and recyle what OEM says to throw away. I have my own printer repair person I use to repair my test beds...yes I test every one before it even gets packaged...he gets his ink from me for his own use! He says he wished OEM hadn't put him out of work by destroying printers and making them almost...ALMOST...as "throw away" as inkjets are supposed to be. Tell me I'm wrong. OEM should be ashamed of it's wasteful practices! Waste brings ingenuity! OEM is even making Joseph's job obsolete! Nuff said! Reduce, reuse, recycle! If you hand fill, good for you. If you look around...how did one of my Customers put it..."Why get your hands inky when you can buy from " I'm not trying to be Mr. Gates by any means. I have simply found a way to make green by being green. Thanks.

[SPIKEMAN]

Hi Jim,

There may be a solution for you after all! Since your printer knows the cartridge mfg, date and amount of ink left, it may be possible to construct a CISS unit using Your original cartridges! Normal CISS units come with proper chips, however, if there isn't one to fit your printer , You could everything but the cartridges that comes with any type CISS unit, You may be able to attach the thin hoses to your original cartridges and Your printer would think it was full all the time. May have to prime the cartridges to get them full before reinstalling them but It may be worth it.

I have done this in the past with another type of printer. Bought a CISS unit (direct from China) and the cartridge unit was not any good! Used the regular OEM cartridge, sealed the breather holes and attached the hoses to each cartridge with a special angle adapter. Used the chips from the orig China unit, purged it out and it worked fine!

Probably the only thing you would have to worry about is if the printer would allow the dated cartridge to continue working after several months! Since it is the original type required for the printer, don't think it would cause any problems.

This is just and idea! It may or may not work, possibly worth a try. I wouldn't hesitate a minute if it were mine! My Epson r300 has been running a couple years on a CISS unit without any problems! The ink is relatively inexpensive also. Just be sure You get the ink for your machine.

Hope you have a lot of success and it works fine should you try it. If you need any more info about the CISS unit, will be glad to furnish whatever I have knowledte of.

Gen. D

[SPIKEMAN]

Hi Bartylby,

Have you (I'm sure you have) had any experience with CISS units? I know that use of these would interfere with the cartridge refilling business, but lets face it, what everyone wants is a printer that WORKS! As for myself, I have tried several types and mfgs of 3rd party refilled units. Most were about 50% useable! Some would not even work when first installed! I even refilled some myself. I found that quite a lot of Epson cartridges were defective from the mfg! I designed a small test unit that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt which cartridge/color was causing the problem. Observing the head check printout confirmed I was correct! This is when I decided to go to the CISS units. As I stated in the other post, not all CISS units are good! I bought 3 from China, all 3 had cartridge problems! Shipping too expensive to return them for a part which was about 1/4 th the cost of shipment to fix the unit and it may also be bad! This is when I used the original equipment cartridge and modified it to suit my purposes. Used the chips from the China unit. Worked fine!

Not sure if all printers are adaptable to the CISS units but if they are, lots of time, money and problems will be solved! Am curious to know your feelings on this subject..

Gen. D

[Skullywag]

Yes, some of the retail kits are faulty, but that's where research comes in. If a web-store has no feedback section or poor documentation on how their product works.....keep looking. If they don't guarantee their product.....keep looking.

Believe it or not, I've found eBay to be the best place for ordering quality kits. Feedback is 100% real, almost instant, up-to-date, and with eBay's new policy of no neg feedback for buyers..... buyers shoot from the hip and tell it like it is, good or bad, with no fear of retaliation feedback. Not to mention with 100 sellers offering the same thing....competitive pricing is fierce.

When you buy refill ink, try to buy U.S. made ink, tighten lids WELL between uses, and discard ink after 1 year. If your printer is made for dye inks, buy dye inks. If your printer is made for pigment inks, buy pigment inks. Both are readily available, and mixing can be a no-no.

I have refilled retail, and 3rd party cartridges made for refilling, for 10 yrs now with few problem and excellent prints. It's like reading a fiction novel when I read people "in the business" say all the damage caused by third party ink. Ink well pads can be cleaned. A leaky cartridge only happens when people don't know what they are doing. I upgrade my printers when new features come out I want.....not because of damaged heads, I currently have a 3 yr Epson, and a 2-1/2 year old refurbished Canon that have both been refilled from day one with no problems. I have NOT tried CISS (although my refillable cartridges are the same as used with CISS) only because I have toddlers running around who would most likely give the feed tubes a yank just to see where they lead to.

I also must question PC Worlds testing accuracy........I have prints made with 3rd party ink, that are 7-8 yrs old with no noticable fading. Of course these prints have been stored like any other print......behind glass in a frame, in a photo album, ect.....not directly under a light bulb non-stop for days.