[TechGirl50]

I beg to differ. I am a small business owner as well and we print a lot of paper. Toner cost was my most expensive item on my g&a after payroll. I found that to be ridiculous. Then a friend told me about Cartridge World in Lithonia GA. I went and became a customer strictly from the price. My toner expense was cut by 30%. Talk about affecting your bottom line. I did have a problem once but the service was impeccable. The tech came to my office and it was fixed in no time and I have not had a problem since. Now I am a customer because of the service.

Now when my cartridge did not work that I bought from Office Depot, no one came out and did anything and they did not want to take it back. It was like I had to prove to them that it did not work and all I wanted to do was exchange the cartridge. You continue to pay the prices that you pay if you would like but in this economy it is about both cost savings and quality.

[Anysia]

Same here. My Canon BJC 240 is 8 yrs old. I have been using 3rd party inks in it for 7.11 of those years. And that printer is still going strong. And my M130 is 6 yrs old and for 5.11 of those years I have also been using 3rd party ink supplier. and it's still working perfectly. Same with the HP Photosmart 330.

So, where is this damage? Other than several hundred dollars going into my bank rather than to the manufacturers of the 'OEM" cartridges?

[Bartylby]

Beatkat, your beating a dead horse here, not a feline, and your analogies are horrible. I could sue my car manufacturer if they denied me covered warranty because I used cheap tranny fluid! The car manufacturers engineer their vehicles to use a standard of fluids most of which are very very similar. And the whole TechronII, HOAT and Dot 3 thing...is a STANDARD of fluid in the automotive industry, not a PROPRIETARY one. Now, if you put water in the fuel system or brake fluid in the oil you might have a bigger problem than warranty (I'd go get an IQ test in that case). You're good at mixing up the facts with your stories. And that is exactly what OEMs want. And hey...what about Auto Zone parts or Pep Boys oil? I would love to see car dealers trying to deny coverage to people trying to save money on car maintenance and incidental (read wearable) parts. In fact, most dealerships offer either their name brand OR SOME TYPE OF GENERIC to save their customers money! Same with inkjets, smart consumers and the law. Did you know that the European Union has sued the OEMs for bogus price claims and bad business practices and WON. Did you know that in Scotland they have a state sanctioned remanufacturing company to cut their e waste. A WHOLE COUNTRY IS REMANUFACTURING! Maybe an expanded view of the world is needed here and not the myopic rotund view of the West. Use LOGIC not analogies and you'll see why OEMs are ripping people off, have been for years and are fighting hard to maintain their grip. If you do the math, OEMs markup their inks to $3000.00 - $6000.00 a gallon for ink! That is the bulk of their income! And you wonder why they are so defensive about their "warranties" and trying to get people scared and confused. It's outrageous! Do the research! As narrowdoor had said in a removed thread, I don't even want to get into the amount of energy it takes to create a "one time use only" item! To use an analogy if I may...imagine how expensive, wasteful and ludicrous it would be to build a brand new house that can only be lived in once! Stop spouting OEM rhetoric and open your eyes. You think the rich COOs, CEOs and large shareholders care about the planet!? Look how many people have saved $1000.00's if not more on third party REMANUFACTURED inks with NO PROBLEMS...supporting green and local economies to boot. And since the OEM's "give away the razor, charge a fortune for the blades" mentality and a warranty of only a year or two, the printers are cheap enough (for that reason too they are wasteful)! That loop in the law is for people who refill their own cartridges...not companies that specialize in recycling and remanufacturing inkjets and other tank type inks. And home refillers can be pretty darn good as long as the ink is up to STANDARD! Ask a certain OEM why it can afford to put not one, not two, but three FORMULA ONE race cars out on the tracks that cost a million a piece, 8 digits for the drivers and even more for R&D and pitcrew! Not to mention they FLY these things all over the world! Because they have turned a simple ink into GOLD...shoot PLATINUM! And I know the story of "but what about all the work to invent all this tech"...well they recouped it years ago. They have giant automated plants churning these things out for pennies (ok maybe a dollar) and they are just now lowering prices!? Did you know that it was Remanufactures that forced OEM to start offering multi packs? Do you think OEMs really wanted to combine and discount their products? No, I don't think so. Did you know it was Remanufactures that forced OEMs to rethink their products and figure a strategy to make the inks APPEAR cheaper. For all you that use 02's, think how many $10.00 tanks it would take to make a gallon? Did you know that if you take them out to refill, there is a chip that "kills" the cartridge? So much for home refilling those...thank goodness remanufactures can replace/reset those "death" chips! Remanufactures have figured a better, more efficient green way to utilize this technology and save consumers money and save the resources of this small rock whizzing through the galaxy. Please, PLEASE go do some homework then come back with some good threads. Thanks.
Message was edited by: Bartylby
Message was edited by: Bartylby again...lol

[coastie65]

I think using an automotive analogy may be a bit of a stretch, but I have seen some parallels. All Automotive fluids must meet S.A.E. ( Society of Automotive Engineers) standards. This is an INDEPENDENT testing and standards organization. All fluids have to meet preset standards and they have to be printed on the label. That having been said, Quaker State Motor oil is S.A.E approved and meets or exceeds the standards. The problem is, if you use Quaker State over an extended period of time, IT WILL gum up your engine due to its parafin base. As someone who has worked in the printing industry at some point, Ink viscosity is extremely important. Print heads are designed to use an ink of a certain viscosity. If you use a higher viscosity ink than what the print heads were designed for, to can bet they will get plugged up and need cleaning. Conversly, if it is too low, your print will suffer and be of poor quality. I guess, if a third party manufacturer wanted to go to the expense of reverse engineering the ink by taking it to a lab and breaking it down to its base components and otherwise test it, they could probably come up with a reasonable "generic" ink. coastie65

[Beatkat]

"I could sue my car manufacturer if they denied me covered warranty because I used cheap tranny fluid!"

Do you really believe that?....I'd like to see you try....sure you could bring the suit and pay the lawyers...but you certainly wouldn't win the suit if you didn't use the required fluid in the tranny...and don't kid yourself, the OEM's bank of high powered lawyers would prove that in court...and that's all they have to do....

I agree with you about a lot of what you say...and I'm all for cutting down the waste stream, and as far as "giving away the razor" and raping one for the blades.....it's the Capitalist way, and it's designed to be wasteful....how else will they keep people buying their products?? It's by design...and kudos to the remanufactures for helping to stop the madness.....OEM's have been ripping people off for eons, and will continue to develop and bring to market proprietary technology that allows them to keep a hold on their brand. As I said...it's theCapitalist way, by design..but there will also be aftermarket companies coming up with comparable replacement products, and also premium replacement products that are better then the OEM. Take car dealers, I recently had my air conditioner condensor go on my truck, and the dealer quoted me an outrageous price for the OEM replacement. I found several aftermarket replacemants that were equal or better to the OEM they would use, and NONE of them cost even close to what they wanted to charge me. Would they use them if I bought it and brought it in to them.NO...not only would they not do the work, they would not warranty it, and they mark up the parts to make money off them as well. That's an industry norm...is it right...NO...is it a fact of life when dealing with them?...Yes...so I went somewhere else and saved $175...but I can't ask the dealer to warranty the part or the work now.

"Ask a certain OEM why it can afford to put not one, not two, but three FORMULA ONE race cars out on the tracks"

HP, for instance, is a huge corp., and it's ability to sponsor has little to do with ink. It has a lot more to do with the technology that uses ink, toner, etc., marketshare, stock holders, and overall corporate profits. They also have one of the most comprehensive technology recycling programs in the world, recycling PC's, printers, monitors, scanners, etc.....so they're not all bad....one can't really blame them for wanting to hold onto their market share.......you would too, if it was your product, and you know you would.......

"To use an analogy if I
may...imagine how expensive, wasteful and ludicrous it would be to
build a brand new house that can only be lived in once! Stop spouting
OEM rhetoric and open your eyes."

Talk about a bad analogy........

"but what about all the work to invent all this tech"...well they recouped it years ago."

I disagree, they are continually redesigning and releasing new product, and also have huge overhead....factories worldwide, THOUSANDS of employees with health insurance, retirement funds, realestate, logistics, responsibility to stockholders, taxes, and on and on....if they developed and perfected it, they deserve to make money from it....that's the whole point.

But anyway...let's not argue anymore...There are valid points to both sides...I will continue to use genuine Canon inks in my printers....but all I buy is individual ink tanks...no integral printhead, no waste by throwing out ink inside the cartridges...and the genuine thing is relatively inexpensive., NOT like an HP cartridge!, and I can still recycle the truly,empty cartridge. That's why I decided to invest in only printers that use individual, see through, ink tanks in the first place, I still own an HP though, as well, because it's a good printer and serves me well, but I don't print photos with it. But I cringe a little when I think about having to replace that tri-color ink cartridge, and I will look for a thrid party or remanufactured cartridge for that one..................have a nice 4th

[MarkSullivan]

Beatkat and Bartylby -- this is a great discussion, and be sure I am following every point. If and when we do a follow-up to our ink feature, I hope we'll be able to drill down on some of the points you guys are making. --Mark

[Beatkat]

Thanks for helping clarify......the same goes with weights....I have a friend that switches back and forth between 10W and 5W, even though the manufacturer says don't do it...he does it because he thinks he knows better.....does he? The argument is true...Oil is Oil if it has the API seal on it and meets or exceeds spec's.....is it?....No it's not, and different oils will perform differently and protect differently, have different proprietary additives in it considered a "trade secret", and sludge up differently, suffer from viscosity breakdown differently........etc, etc....If Valvoline was the same as Penzoil, that was the same as Mobil1 , that was the same as Quaker State, that was the same as Pep Boys..( they don't make their own oil, it's branded by someone), there would be no branding competition and manufacturers claims and hard work in testing, R+D, etc. would mean nothing......

[Bartylby]

Ugg...with the car analogy...I understand the parallel as well, but they do not converge. This is at the will of OEMs. They don't want a "standard" ink. An "SAE" for ink. Logic people...logic. What is the benefit to large for profit OEMs to create a standard ink? None. Why did the auto industry create a standard for their fluids? To make engineering cars easier. OEMs don't want this to be easy. They want to keep their grip on their main profit margin product...ink and printing. The technology is here and patented. Until someone invents a completely new way to place ink on a piece of paper that is affordable to the masses or we go back to pen and paper, we're all stuck with these technologies...bubblejet, inkjet, laserjet and all the old fashion static types. The world be damned and future generations with it for the almighty dollar of today. The continued efforts of OEM to create a "one time use only" atmosphere shows their arrogance and ignorance of the state of our world. Something must be done. We don't have to reverse anything. Does anyone remember chemistry and the gas chromatograph. It breaks down the components of a substance and allows each element to be identified and the amount of each substance therein. Any third party ink manufacturer can buy an OEM off the shelf and see exactly what's in it. The work has been done and the ink is available. There is no secret ink, no special formula. Just hype from decades of BILLION DOLLAR spin from OEMs, and the continued disbelief of consumers that they have been ripped off all this time. Unlike OEM, remanufactures talk to each other and share knowledge to "green up" this technology of printing. We share a common goal to Reduce, Reuse and Recycle e waste which often contains hazardous materials that end up in landfills and plastics that last practically forever (Ever take a look at satellite photos of the Pacific ocean? There is a 1000 square mile mat of plastic crap just swirling around out there killing ocean creatures and birds). It is the fastest, by percentage increase, growing form of waste we humans produce. When I first started this business there were hundreds of Mom and Pop "drill and fill" companies all with different inks and pigments. There were cheap (and illegal) clones that were being imported from overseas passed off as OEM. Their products were inferior to professional remans and the consumer suffered for it. As the industry has evolved, however, the remanufactures have created a "standard" for ourselves that is of the same, if not better quality than OEM. Competition among good companies comes from customer service and a little in price. Someone above said that her ink company came out to her office! That's customer service! OEM...not! The issue lies with the consumer to do their homework, ask questions and buy from reputable remanufactures. It has been difficult for some to find the right remanufacture. To once again use a car analogy...if you buy a car that turns out to be junk...you tend not to buy that brand again, but you certainly don't come to the conclusion that ALL cars are junk...that's a fallacy of logic called guilt by association. All I am saying here is that this is one example where big business comes into direct conflict with logical thought and conclusions. If we keep producing the waste we do...well...go see the movie Wall-E. Keep your mind open and some extra dollars in your pocket. It wasn't that long ago people thought that burning french fry oil in their cars was crazy too. Thanks.
Message was edited by: Bartylby

[Beatkat]

Thanks Mark, and thanks for this forum...it's important stuff....have a nice 4th.....

[coastie65]

When you are thinking about 10w and 5w, you are not thinking about weight as much as you are viscosity. Actually. 5w or 10w would be reccommended in say Pt. Barrow Alaska in the middle of winter and conversely, you would be well served to use a multi viscosity oil (10w 50w) in say Phoenix Ariz. in mid summer. In printing, Ink viscosity is important. I have worked with both water based Ink and Alcohol based ink. We had a thing that looked like a stainless steel test tube with a precisely sized hole in the bottom on a handle. We would dip it in the bucket of ink to check the viscosity by timing how long it took the ink to drain from this thing. There was a set time it should take to drain if the viscosity was right. If it took too long then the viscosity was too high and we had to add more base ( water or alcohol) to thin it out. Too low, and we simply added more ink. Some print heads will allow for a higher viscosity ink while others require a lower viscosity ink, thus the problem for third party manufacturers and why some peoples print heads get plugged up after using third party ink. If the viscosity is too low then the print heads obviously won't get plugged up, but you get poor print quality due to an excessive flow of ink. That is why in my opinion, buying cheaper third party inks is a crap shoot. coastie65

[advoc8]

I wasn't totally impressed with the Consumer Reports study on refill inks either, because it likewise lacked comparing the very best refill inks with the OEMs. Both reports only tell part of the story of refills vs OEM inks. CR's finding that refills don't save $ was also way off the mark (PCW's imperfect study was better). I see it that both were very scientific only from one side. Both's selection of refill inks killed both articles from being truly outstanding, and even more scientific. They could have shown even more than they did how refill inks vary one from another. The OEMs were given their best shot in both studies while refills as a total group were accidentally limited, selected too randomly, using mainly most popular sources and failing to ferret out the very best as well.

[advoc8]

One other reader and I who tested refill inks ourselves did not have any print quality issues or banding with the third party inks we tried. Maybe because our printers had separate print heads from the ink cartridges? My old Lexmark and Dell would do this "banding trick" with refills, with cheap on-cartridge printheads failing/banding with 1-4 refills. My Canon and many other printers do not do this. This un-discussed issue could be misleading accidentally. This is how truly scientific studies are refined and thus redone, sometimes over and over with needed revisions. Dye based inks (my Canon printer) may show a wider variety of fade-resistance (poor to great)than would pigment based inks used in Epson printers. The real issues others and I have found with refill inks are: color match (or pleasing color - sometimes non-matching to OEM can be better) and fade resistance. Bottom line, I look forward to even better articles on this subject in the future, from both PCW and CR.

[Bartylby]

I am not arguing about cars here anymore...but about WASTE and GREED and how they go together to an end that I hope does not occur for our species. I agree that it is 'the Capitalist way" and this has produced the greatest technological country in the world. I am green in more ways than one. I even disagree with caps and taxes on companies like Exxon/Mobil for making "too much money". It costs a fortune to find today's fossil fuels to feed our addiction. However, we're (read humans in general) wasting what resources this planet has all for making a very small percent of humans VERY rich or even richer. It's no longer the "finders keepers" or "whoever has the most" mentality that cuts it today. We are ALL responsible, every one of us, to ensure that our species persists beyond the next few generations. If not...Mother Nature will start again and to quote a man just passed..."shake us off like a bad case of fleas." We are the first species that possess the ability to arrest its own demise and the majority of us don't care. Just like I don't care about your truck or my car...in the end they are both ephemeral, just like all human life..for now. We exist for an instant.

As far as the F1 thing...its ability to sponsor what is a billion dollar a year SPORT is a direct reflection of its income...which is in question not just in this arena, but worldwide and its practices for getting said income at the expense of consumers hard earned money and environmental indifference. That is what I call into question...at what expense?

How is the one time use house analogy any different than a one time use inkjet cartridge? They are the same wasteful way of thinking. It would be TERRIFIC if you were a home builder. Not so if you couldn't afford a brand new home. Besides...natural processes would break down my house in about 100 years...plastics last almost forever.

As far as the new technologies from OEM...they simply repackage and re label the same technology to keep the consumers buying more and "the latest". It is an age old business practice. They haven't changed their PATENTED printheads or tank systems. That's why they're patented. If OEM actually came out with something new...that would be patented too. Oh sorry...they patented the "death chip" to try to force a one time only use. Thank goodness we're a smart bunch. Yes they have shareholders to appease, but again...at what expense? My portfolio is more diverse in "green" chips than blue for that very reason.

I am all for making money which is a tool needed today to survive and get things done...but how much and at what expense has to start to be measured in the equations as well or we are all doomed.

I may be outing myself as a geek here...but Gene Roddenberry was on to something with his "morality plays" and views of the future. It has been proven the science fiction often becomes science fact. I fear as a species we are going to be hard pressed to outlast cockroaches unless we fundamentally change the way we live...all 6.5 billion of us.

I agree...we can see each others points of view even if we don't see it the same. As one human to another, thank you for recycling and helping our future. That is all I can do with the time I am alive...try to make a difference for our future...for everyone's and everything's future.

Thanks and have a good Fourth of July.

[advoc8]

As for the automotive analogies - at least parts are very valid. BUT, let's not let it scare us from using the better refill inks (which will not affect our warranties). The very scare and suppositions from this can easily derail us from finding, using and enjoying the very best, which the OEMs would certainly enjoy... I have used many refill inks and replacement cartridges that have never clogged my ink-jets and never caused banding as seen in some of the examples in the article. Though, remember, all inks eventually will clog, and all OEM inks will eventually clog too. Learn to unclog print heads (article on internet) and don't use printers with poor quality print heads, especially those that are part of the print head itself. Learn which inks work best in all three categories: 1- Print quality, including banding/clogging. 2- color matching or pleasing color results if not matched. 3- Fade-resistance - this one is more important to me since I have the first two nailed.

[Bartylby]

Thanks for the interest. It is important as beatkat stated. I am passionate about our future. Where technology and humanity take us is up to us all and through the interent, forums, blogs and even YouTube we can all have a voice. Happy Fouth of July!

[SPIKEMAN]

Hi Coastie65

Thanks for the lesson in viscosity! Even though I have been in the work force for over 50 years before I retired, I am very familiar with viscosity. Your excellent description will help some one I'm sure.

There is one note that I would like to inject. NOT ALL BULK AND THIRD PARTY INK IS BAD! I have been using bulk ink (NOT OEM), for some time now. I get perfect photos which will compare to the best of any same quality printer. I use a CISS unit and save hundreds of dollars on buying cartridges! One order of a set of 6 colors (Approx. $70.00) is less than one set of original cartridges!

I have found a condition which I haven't heard anyone addrss in the ink cartridges! It is NOT the ink! But the cartridge! When the cartridge works, the photos are perfect! I couldn't believe that this was going on until I designed a special test rig to test the defective cartridges! It proved me correct in every test of a missing color. Without seeing the printer, I can tell you which color is giving the problem! This unit works on any cartridge without the heads attached. Mostly Epson!

I have 2 Epson stylus PHOTO 925 printers. Was buying refilled cartridges at the time. 2 doz or more at a time! Found quite a percent to be defective and this was not just one company supplying the cartridges. Even some OEM ones were defective!

While running a lot of headchecks and cleaning, using lots of ink, it caused Me to do the reasearch on what was going wrong. This is when I found the cartridge problem! Later switched to the Epson r300 and CISS unit, haven't had a problem since! Aboug 2 years of printing photos and other things with no problems!

Everyone has their Own opinions, however I hope this information will be used in a positive way with good results. All I can say is that it worked perfect for Me!

Good luck in any event!

SPIKEMAN

[coastie65]

Hey SPIKEMAN, I have an HP C5180 All-in-One with six (6) cartridges. The 5 color cartridges are $9.95 ea. and the Black one is $16.95 ( I think). I usually get a discount of sorts from Staples, as they give you credit for your old cartridges so I haven't really tried third party ink. Yeah, everybody does have their opinion, and they usually have genuine reasons for those opinions for the most part. Personally, I enjoy being around an opinionated bunch, makes for some interesting reading at times. Getting back to what you said about the cartridges, you make a good point, as the cartridges have really gotten sophisticated as has previously been pointed out. To be honest, I would like to see at least six independent tests by six different testing agencies in order to get a more comprehensive testing result. coastie

[Bartylby]

spikeman,

You are very correct, which is why "drill and fill" companies that do not test are often of very poor quality. Any remanufacturer worth his beans will test EVERY unit during initial inspection and perform a final test after the process is complete before packaging. This is why "tank" printers (printers with the head as part of the printer) tend to be more expensive to purchase with less expensive inks and vice versa for "cartridge" printers (where the printhead is a part of the cartridge itself). In fact, because inkjets are so expensive, people have a tendency to "burn out" the printheads trying to squeeze the very last drops of ink out rendering the cartridge truly "dead". There is a large amount (although small in size) of heat that is produced during printing and components in the ink cool the head down. When it runs low or dry and it continues to get used, the heads burn up. A print shop friend has used a perpetual printing setup and has inkjets that have lasted a year before burnout under very heavy printing loads. I have ongoing R&D in my printers that shows when the cartridge is not burned up you can use it for many (up to 15-20 times) remanufacturing cycles. That is part of the OEM problem...they WANT the consumers to burn them up so they can never be used again. If they are recycled when appropriate, you can use them many many more times than "For Single Use Only". advoc8 was correct too...all cartridges will eventually clog unless they are maintained. Good cleaning inside and out during remanufacturing is very important (along with a few trade secrets). For home refillers...don't wait! When the printer says the inkjet is done, go and purchase your refill kit or recyle them! They will last much longer. Great addition to the thread! Thanks, and have a Happy Fourth of July.

[SPIKEMAN]

Hi Coastie65

Tell Me about it! I have the Epson r300 which has 6 cart. @ approx $15.00 each! I can't afford to use the OEM ink! Have to use bulk to really save a lot! With My CISS unit, I save probably 90% of the ink cost! Each 8 oz of color or black cost 10 bucks! With shipping a total of approx $70.00 ! This is 20 buck less than one set of cartridges! To this time, have found NO problem with this ink! NO cloggs, NO fading, NOTHING! Just keep the tanks filled as needed, (don't let them get below 1/4) . If they should run out, all the priming etc has to be done all over again and probably some resealing cart. seats etc.

I did an installation on my CISS unit which works perfectly with no shags or drapes to the feed tubes. Was dealing with a China Mfg Co at time of inst. Showed them the photos and they ask if they could use them in their borchures! Guess I should have ask for some sort of payment but I didn't. They looked nice in their adds.

I am mostly familiar with Epson printers as that is what I have now and haven't had the need to get any other type.

I hope no one gets offended if they try something I mention and it don't work for them! I am a type that if I want something and it looks like it will do what I need, I'll find a way to get it to work! This is and has been my position all My life! When I want a photo that is in a different format than what I have, usually I can find a way to get it! Lots of friends send emails with all kinds of formats! NO ONE CAN HAVE ALL THE FORMATS OUT THERE!. I like to try different types of photos with this ink which has worked extremely well so far. Have found some photos will not come out with the proper colors no matter what you do! I have tried to rework them in Adobe, still some just don't have the proper dpi and shades to produce a good print!

Getting back to the catridges, I have tried several manufacturs types and have quite a lot of info on what works and don't work! (Epson type) . There is a valve in the output of each color on the cartridge which is closed until installed! The sealing rings are sometimes a part of the valve, some have tiny round head pins that push up when installed to open the orfice. Just above these valve feeds is a restrictor which caused the problems which I always found! Somehow they stop the flow of ink. With my tester I designed I can tell which works and which don't! Lots of head cleaning is done unnessarily when this occurs. Sometimes it will allow just enough ink to be drawn into the chamber to work for a few lines and then stops again. With My CISS unit, have NEVER had this to happen!

Thanks for the feedback . I enjoy all types of opinions however good or bad, just use a filter and everything comes out great! Have a wonderful day, its hot here in Vegas, was 110 in front of my bedroom window in the shade! Supposed to get hotter tomorrow!

SPIKEMAN

[byteguy]

I had an Epson C86 and decided to try the ink that Staples sold. It seemed to work for a while, and then the magenta started looking funny. Almost like it was out of ink. I swapped out the color cartridge but it never again printed correctly--even with an Epson cartridge.

To make a long story short--I went out and bought a C88 ('cause the C86 was no longer available). Guess this means that the experiment was sorta expensive.

I feel that, after this experience, I'll stay with the manufacturer's ink and whine loudly every time I buy it. (FYI--I rarely use it to print photos for this reason)