[dabigkahuna]

I had been expecting to wait to buy until Mac World in January - probably get an iMac then (mid-level) and then later get a mackbook (bottom or mid-level).

But then we had these new laptops come out - and I happen to have my annual trip starting this December so I think this may be the time to go ahead and get a mac! But I do have some issues maybe some can address.

One reason for the mid-level choice originally was, if I got the laptop first, I'd definitely want a super-drive. Well, now I can get that on the old bottom level one and save money. But then I have crappy graphics - which was my other concern about the macbook line. Meanwhile, my concerns with the midlevel mb is two-fold - no firewire and they actually reduced the processor speed! If not for that speed decrease, I'd just buy it now.

So, okay, maybe firewire won't be that big of a deal - I'd be getting Time Capsule too so that should take care of the additional HD issue I might normally use firewire for and I guess I could plug in another hd if necessary to that unit. But what about the speed issue? Sure, better graphics may make things faster in some ways, as would also hopefully be the case with larger bus and faster memory - but does anyone have any idea how this will compare to the old speed with the 2.4 processor? This is going to be a big budget deal for me and I don't think I can justify going to the top mb and certainly not tho the mbp!

If people feel the speed is going to be pretty good (keep in mind I MIGHT want to run Windows on it), and the jump to 2.4 really wouldn't be a big deal, then I'll probably get the 2.0 version.

Still wish it had 3 USB ports, but a blue tooth keyboard/mouse should take care of that limitation.

What about the printer deal ($100 rebate for printers which range from $100-170)? I've always used a laser partly because my old experience with inkjets was a lot of clogging, especially if not used regularly, not to mention the high cost of ink. Obviously, with the rebate, I could get the $100 one and end up paying nothing - but it could be better to get one of the other two that cost more.

When I buy this thing, one thing I'd really like to do is make a ghost image of the thing in pristine condition so, if something ever goes wrong, I can completely reset it. Then I'd install updates and programs and make another ghost image. Periodically I may reset to the most recent "clean" image, put in new stuff, and make a new one.

So, do I need to buy software for this (if so, what?) or does it come with Mac OS?

I've always partitioned my hard drives - OS, Programs, data, and usually one for miscellaneous stuff until I decide what to do with it. Can - or should - a mac be partitioned?

The one problem I've faced with partitioning on my PC (small 30 GB hd) is that, even though I started out with lots of extra space on the C partition, even putting programs on D, Windows puts a lot of the stuff on C, so I have two or three times had to adjust my partitions to make room. Would that be the same with the Mac - or can I set a "safe" size for the OS and not have to worry about it later?

Right now I'm thinking I'll make a final decision in about a week. I hope to get some input here and I really hope there may be some lab tests put up by MacWorld and others to give me a good idea of the speed issue mentioned.

I did spend a few minutes on one of the new macpros - the only new machine the local store had Thursday morning. I was pretty happy with the new trackpad and using it as the button. Keyboard didn't feel quite right to me - seemed like I had to adjust my stretch for some keys - but I figure I can adjust to that. Besides, I expect to use an external keyboard the vast majority of time.

Money burning a hole in the pocket!!!

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

I had been expecting to wait to buy until Mac World in January - probably get an iMac then (mid-level) and then later get a mackbook (bottom or mid-level).

But then we had these new laptops come out - and I happen to have my annual trip starting this December so I think this may be the time to go ahead and get a mac! But I do have some issues maybe some can address.


One reason for the mid-level choice originally was, if I got the laptop first, I'd definitely want a super-drive. Well, now I can get that on the old bottom level one and save money. But then I have crappy graphics - which was my other concern about the macbook line. Meanwhile, my concerns with the midlevel mb is two-fold - no firewire and they actually reduced the processor speed! If not for that speed decrease, I'd just buy it now.

Crappy graphics will only get in the way if you are planning on doing graphically intensive things. The biggest, typical example is gaming. The "old" MacBook can do some games, but "higher end" games will not be possible with it...they become more possible with the "new" MacBook. What types of things would you want to be doing with your MacBook?

dabigkahuna said:

So, okay, maybe firewire won't be that big of a deal - I'd be getting Time Capsule too so that should take care of the additional HD issue I might normally use firewire for and I guess I could plug in another hd if necessary to that unit. But what about the speed issue? Sure, better graphics may make things faster in some ways, as would also hopefully be the case with larger bus and faster memory - but does anyone have any idea how this will compare to the old speed with the 2.4 processor? This is going to be a big budget deal for me and I don't think I can justify going to the top mb and certainly not tho the mbp!


If people feel the speed is going to be pretty good (keep in mind I MIGHT want to run Windows on it), and the jump to 2.4 really wouldn't be a big deal, then I'll probably get the 2.0 version.

The lack of a Firewire port is rather stupid on Apple's part. Having said that, depending on how you plan to use the computer, it may not be a big deal. While I certainly prefer to use a Firewire external drive over a USB drive (I am starting to switch to eSATA for my desktops) with ALL my computers (both Macs and Windoze) for backup and other purpose, USB drives will work. And you can boot off of a USB external drive with Intel Macs...it is slower than booting off a Firewire drive, but it works. The biggest downside of using a USB drive over a Firewire drive is that you will generally have to use two USB ports with a portable bus powered USB drive...Macs generally don't supply enough power through one USB port to power such drives...OR use an external power brick with the USB drive. Neither option is too desireable when a single Firewire port has no problem powering a bus powered portable Firewire drive. But, ultimately, while kind of a "bummer", a USB external drive works just fine, even if it is a poor substitute for a Firewire drive.



The more likely "trouble" areas due to the lack of a Firewire port are the lack of Firewire Target Disk mode and video editting. Target Disk Mode will likely be a non-issue or minimal issue for you...as it is for the VAST majority of people. If you are not aware, Target Disk mode allows you to hook that computer up to another computer and have it operate in the mode where it "looks" like an external hard drive to the other computer...and vice versa. It can be useful tool to transfer files/data between two Macs, but there are other ways. And most people don't use it.



Video editting could be the real "killer". Apple has been one of the "pushers" of consumer level video recording, editting and burning to DVD. While I am sure that that there are a LOT of people who don't do video editting, I also suspect that there are significant number of people who do use a MacBook for some video editting. Firewire has been the primary connection method for getting video off a digital camcorder and onto your Mac. For those who do video editting and have a Firewire video camera and have a current MacBook, they are kind of screwed if they want to get a new MacBook. To some degree, it will might be less of a problems as some video cameras now use USB instead of Firewire. But, still, it has the potential to mess with a lot of people. If you don't do video editting and/or have a Firewire video camera, then this is a non-issue for you.



So, overall, I suspect that unless you are into video editting, the lack of a Firewire port on a MacBook might not affect you too much.



As to the speed issue, keep in mind that speed is more than just the clock speed (GHz) of the processor. Even if you want to focus on the clock speed, the difference between a 2.1 GHz Core 2 Duo and a 2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo will in most cases not be noticed at all. It again depends on what you are doing. If you are doing web browsing, word processing, and email, then you will likely not notice a difference AT ALL. If you are into editting photos and using filters or other modifications in a program like Photoshop or encoding a video to burn to DVD, then you might notice a little difference in how long it takes to do such things. But that completely ignores the fact that the new MacBooks have a faster bus, faster memory, and WAY better/faster graphics. While I am not aware of any speed benchmarks for the new MacBooks (other than Jobs' claims of up to 5 times faster for things that are graphically intensive...an unsubstantiated claim at this point), I have very little doubt that they will be found to be at least as fast, if not faster than, as the "old' MacBook that is staying as the entry level MacBook even though it has a faster processor. And beyond that, 2.0 GHz should have no problem doing the things you want to do (unless you are doing high end photo editting or lots of video encoding and such...but then it could still do it, just not as fast). For example, it will have ZERO problem with Windoze...my "old" 1st generation MacBook Pro with a 1.87 GHz Core Duo (NOT a Core 2 Duo) runs Windoze in both Boot Camp and Parallels just fine (it can be a little sluggish if I am running a lot of other stuff at the same time since my MacBook Pro is limited to 2 GB of memory, but it runs just fine if I don't open up too many things as once...that is a memory issue, NOT a processor issue, per se).



End result, you should not worry about the speed issue between the entry level and mid level MacBook. Both should be able to handle what you need to do, unless you are doing high end computer stuff.

dabigkahuna said:

Still wish it had 3 USB ports, but a blue tooth keyboard/mouse should take care of that limitation.

Bluetooth mice work rather well. I use both a portable Bluetooth mouse at times when I travel (most of the time, I just use the trackpad on my MBP) and a bigger Bluetooth mouse at home when I hook the MBP to a monitor and keyboard. I personally don't use a Bluetooth keyboard, but they should work fine.



And if you don't want to use Bluetooth, then you can always get a USB hub. Thus, while two ports is kind of a pain and would be better with 3 or even 4 ports, it is NOT a major hurdle.

dabigkahuna said:

What about the printer deal ($100 rebate for printers which range from $100-170)? I've always used a laser partly because my old experience with inkjets was a lot of clogging, especially if not used regularly, not to mention the high cost of ink. Obviously, with the rebate, I could get the $100 one and end up paying nothing - but it could be better to get one of the other two that cost more.

It first depends on how you would use it. Color printing? Photo printing? Or just general B&W document printing? How often?



Next, it would depend on if it would be your only printer or if you have another printer. You kind of imply that you might have a laser printer already, but it is not clear. If you don't have a printer, then a laser printer (i.e. maybe one of the Samsungs or something else that does not get you a $100 rebate) might be a good option, especially if you only need B&W document printing and/or don't print to often. While generally more expensive upfront, laser cost less in the long run. My LaserJet 6MP (which is my main printer for ALL my computers) is now more than 10 years old. I am just about to finish up the second toner cartridge on it...and it still prints like a charm (I have to take out and rock the toner cartridge on occasion right now since it is getting low, but that will go away when it completely runs out and I put in the new cartridge). If you already have a laser printer or get one that does not get you a $100 rebate, then you could use the $100 rebate to get a cheap color inkjet to do the occasional picture or color printout. Just realize that some ink cartridges will dry out if not used on a regular basis.

dabigkahuna said:

When I buy this thing, one thing I'd really like to do is make a ghost image of the thing in pristine condition so, if something ever goes wrong, I can completely reset it. Then I'd install updates and programs and make another ghost image. Periodically I may reset to the most recent "clean" image, put in new stuff, and make a new one.


So, do I need to buy software for this (if so, what?) or does it come with Mac OS?

I use a program call SuperDuper to clone my internal drive to an external Firewire drive to make a fully bootable, 100% duplicate of the system drive. There are other options, but SuperDuper is the "gold standard" for many Mac users. And it is not that expensive.



The Mac OS can make disk images, but it is not quite the same thing and I don't honestly know if it would work well in that situation or not. It is mainly for making disk images of things like floppies (before they became extinct on Macs) and optical disks...or "installer" disk images that you might download and mount to install applications. You will be better off just going with something like SuperDuper.




I've always partitioned my hard drives - OS, Programs, data, and usually one for miscellaneous stuff until I decide what to do with it. Can - or should - a mac be partitioned?


The one problem I've faced with partitioning on my PC (small 30 GB hd) is that, even though I started out with lots of extra space on the C partition, even putting programs on D, Windows puts a lot of the stuff on C, so I have two or three times had to adjust my partitions to make room. Would that be the same with the Mac - or can I set a "safe" size for the OS and not have to worry about it later?
Partitioning is largely a personal choice. In general, I am of a similar mind as you...I like to have one partition for the OS and programs and another for data/files. I have done this mainly for backup purposes...why spend time routinuely backing up all the program files over and over again when they generally don't change. And it makes it easier to keep things "clean".



Can it be done? Yes...and maybe no. In general, there is no problem partitioning a Mac drive. I am pretty sure that Leopard now allows for non-destructive partitioning (i.e. you don't have to erase the entire drive to partition it...I still STRONGLY encourage backing up before doing ANY partitioning, whether destructive or not), but I am not completely sure (I have been too lazy to upgrade my MBP to Leopard even though I got the upgrade last Christmas...plus, I kind of like Tiger). There are certainly partition programs that CAN do non-destructive partitioning if the Mac OS won't. The one example of "no" can be with Boot Camp. Boot Camp actually will partition the drive so that you have a Windoze boot partition and a Mac OS boot partition. When it was a beta under Tiger, if you did ANY other partitioning after that (except by some rather convoluted ways), it would screw things up royally. I don't know if the "full" implementation of Boot Camp will allow you to also partition the Mac OS drive portion or not.



In the end, it is NOT needed. While I WANTED to partition my MBP to have a files partition, the issue with Boot Camp prevented that, so I only operate with two partitions...the Windoze partition and the Mac OS partition (which has the Mac OS, programs and all my files/data). And since SuperDuper can do incremental backups, it is not a problem. So, if you want to run Boot Camp, you might be limited...but if no Boot Camp, then you can partition the drive if you want.




Right now I'm thinking I'll make a final decision in about a week. I hope to get some input here and I really hope there may be some lab tests put up by MacWorld and others to give me a good idea of the speed issue mentioned.


I did spend a few minutes on one of the new macpros - the only new machine the local store had Thursday morning. I was pretty happy with the new trackpad and using it as the button. Keyboard didn't feel quite right to me - seemed like I had to adjust my stretch for some keys - but I figure I can adjust to that. Besides, I expect to use an external keyboard the vast majority of time.


Money burning a hole in the pocket!!!
As to the keyboard, that is a personal preference kind of thing. A lot of people love the keyboard that has been on the old MacBook and is the same type on the new MB and MBP. Personally, I am not fond of that type of keyboard...that was one of the many reasons why I went with a MBP over a MB several years ago. It could be "sticking" point if/when I am ready for a new laptop...that and the dumbass glossy screen. Other than those two issues, the new MBP is rather appealing to me.



In the end, I would say that if you have a need/use for the MacBook now, then go for it. The clock speed of the mid-level processor should NOT be a sticking point for you.



HTH

[dabigkahuna]

Always good to get your views!

The graphics - or darn near anything that has to do with the power of the computer - is at least partly "insurance". Even if what I do now doesn't need it, that could change in the future.

Right now, most of what I do is Office (still using 2000 since it does all I need), Firefox browser, Thunderbird for email. I do some simple games. Probably the most complicated I ever tried was Call of Duty a few years ago. It worked, but the graphics were poor - fair amount of ghosting for one thing, but it was playable. So, while I'm not likely to go out and buy bunches of games, I would get a few anyway. I liked the old Doom games (never went beyond Final and Ultimate Doom so things have changed a lot in what is demanded).

Movies? Haven't done any, but I do see myself doing at least little things. I don't have a serious video camera, but my still camera also does decent small movies so I would logically want to do some splicing an dicing. Someday - like when my mortgage is done! - I'd get a video camera.

Photos? This is a problem. I'm at least a little color blind so I'm kinda annoyed that if I were to work on pictures so they look good to me, they may look "off" to others! Don't know any solution to that. All I do with photos now is in Picassa. Typically I'll try the "I feel lucky" button and if the results please me, I just stick with it. Most of my photos are of scenary. I find that button seems to get rid of the haze most photos here get and also seems to "deepen" the color. Especially seems to make the landscape greener - but who knows since my color vision is off!

Based on what you say about Firewire, it may not matter much - though I still wish it was there. Any video camera I buy will probably have USB since that is getting more popular (I think).



The hard drive issue could matter more, but I don't know - if I have Time Capsule - if it would matter. But what is this about having to use both USB ports for a drive? That sounds bad when I only would have two. The Time Capsule would have another (I think), but I may try to put the printer there.

Concerning the faster bus, memory, etc, I did see some testing results on that at this link:

http://www.primatela...e-october-2008/

It apparently does NOT check graphics. I was disappoined to see the 2.0 new version was overall about 10% slower. In the two areas where the new version was worse, the difference was pretty big as a percentage. In the two areas where the new one was better, the difference was really tiny.

Comparing the old 2.4 version to the new - the new has about an overall 3% advantage (and didn't win all four categories).

I could look at the 2.4 version as "just" being $250 more (factoring education discounts on both) and for that you get the faster processor, bigger hard drive, and backlit keyboard. Probably fair - but, frankly, I look at it like it should have kept the old speed processor and thus that $250 extra only gets me a bigger drive and backlit keyboard. Kinda pricey that way!

I'm not sure how to approach the memory issue. All I've read is that Apple memory is really expensive. But I don't know if the upgrade to 4 gb ($135 with teacher discount) is better than just going with 2 gb and later buying all new memory from a third party to bring it up to 4 if I need it.

I've done some looking at the local Circuit City keyboards (wireless). Only one was blue tooth, but I also noted that none of the mice was like the one I have, which I like because of the number of programmable buttons (two main buttons, wheel button. Another in front of the wheel, two behind it, two on the side. I could get by without two of them, but I'd like to have that many again. Didn't see any yet.

Don't know about the Macbook, but on my laptop, I can't use the wireless keyboard (usb) unless it is plugged directly into the keyboard! Same with my Brother laser printer.

Printing right now is almost 100% black and white - reason for getting the laser. If I absolutely need color on something, I can take it to school. Not for photos - just school stuff that needs color.

But I could see myself printing out photos occasionally.

All the rest would be black and white. Typically almost daily printouts of my gradebook and another sheet of school info. Four times a year, full page progress reports for about 30+ kids. And periodic odds and ends I couldn't exactly predict. Oh, and I MUST be able to print on 3x5 cards.

If I got the computer, I'd probably still use my present laser for these quick and dirty jobs. Unfortunately, it leaves up to 3 black marks on each printout, but usually that isn't critical for what I'm doing. I will replace it with something for sure, but I could get by with it. At the very least, it would seem even if I don't need a printer or what Apple offers doesn't meet my needs, I should get the $100 one since it would be free. The real issue is whether one of the other ones would actually be better for my usage - better to apply the rebate to that. I think one or maybe both of the other ones is wireless? I've read so much stuff lately, I can't remember it all Not sure, but I think the cheapest one may have been best for photos.

Does Super duper let you a series of different setups for the OS? This also brings up the question of not using partitions. It seems to me that, without partitions, you'd have to backup EVERYTHING on the drive if you want something that would let you essentially go back to a pristine setup. Like I said, I'd like a series of such setups (orginal setup, after I make any updates that already are available, after I install all my programs I start with. Then, any time I have problems, I can go back to the most uptodate clean backup. Actually, I was thinking about creating these on DVDs. Never done this before so not sure of the best approach.

BTW, any idea how much memory the operating system needs if I did partitions? And does it keep growing like Windows does?

If I'm not using boot camp at first - time will tell if I need it - and I decide to not partition, is there any problem partitioning later if I need to install windows/boot camp on it?

Assuming the problem with boot camp and partitioning afterwards is still an issue, what about doing extra partitions first?
I've read a lot of comments about the glossy screen. Hard to tell without using one. At home, I'm guessing it wouldn't be an issue. I am set up in a corner, facing out (which means the computer is facing the corner). That would I think, minimize reflections. Wish I could actually test it though.
I saw in another thread that you never got the extended warranties. I know most electronics, if they do go bad, usually do so early. And I know, just like all insurance, that you pay, on average, more than you benefit.

For the lower of the two new MBs, the normal price is $249. But the teacher discount makes it just $183. Would that make much difference in your decision? I'm thinking about not getting it. It could either just save me some money OR it could offset most of that $250 difference between that MB and the top one.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Always good to get your views!

The graphics - or darn near anything that has to do with the power of the computer - is at least partly "insurance". Even if what I do now doesn't need it, that could change in the future.


Right now, most of what I do is Office (still using 2000 since it does all I need), Firefox browser, Thunderbird for email. I do some simple games. Probably the most complicated I ever tried was Call of Duty a few years ago. It worked, but the graphics were poor - fair amount of ghosting for one thing, but it was playable. So, while I'm not likely to go out and buy bunches of games, I would get a few anyway. I liked the old Doom games (never went beyond Final and Ultimate Doom so things have changed a lot in what is demanded).

If you do any moderate level gaming, then the newer MacBook is likely the better way to go. For all the other stuff, either will be fine. The integrated graphics on the old MacBook pretty much suck from what I understand...the graphics system is hard pressed to do much of anything in the gaming area. Call of Duty might be old enough to be OK on an older MacBook, but then again it might not. I don't have enough experience with gaming on a MacBook to know for sure, but from what I understand, it is very pathetic. So, in that area, the new MacBook should be significantly better.

dabigkahuna said:

Movies? Haven't done any, but I do see myself doing at least little things. I don't have a serious video camera, but my still camera also does decent small movies so I would logically want to do some splicing an dicing. Someday - like when my mortgage is done! - I'd get a video camera.

Since you don't have a Firewire video camera right now, then I would say this is NOT an issue. If/when you get into doing movies, you could just make sure that you get a camera that is compatible with your computer (i.e. a USB based camera assuming you go with the new MacBook). Your still camera likely uses a USB connection OR you can pull the flash memory card and use a USB card reader. So, again, a non-issue.

dabigkahuna said:

Photos? This is a problem. I'm at least a little color blind so I'm kinda annoyed that if I were to work on pictures so they look good to me, they may look "off" to others! Don't know any solution to that. All I do with photos now is in Picassa. Typically I'll try the "I feel lucky" button and if the results please me, I just stick with it. Most of my photos are of scenary. I find that button seems to get rid of the haze most photos here get and also seems to "deepen" the color. Especially seems to make the landscape greener - but who knows since my color vision is off!

Sounds like a problem that is independent of the choice of computer. :) Neither computer will "fix" your color blindness. ;)

dabigkahuna said:

Based on what you say about Firewire, it may not matter much - though I still wish it was there. Any video camera I buy will probably have USB since that is getting more popular (I think).



The hard drive issue could matter more, but I don't know - if I have Time Capsule - if it would matter. But what is this about having to use both USB ports for a drive? That sounds bad when I only would have two. The Time Capsule would have another (I think), but I may try to put the printer there.

The use of two USB port is ONLY if you use a portable bus powered USB drive (i.e. one of the small portable drives that uses a laptop type hard drive). If you use a "typical" desktop external USB drive, then one USB port will be fine as such drives will generally have their own power supply. The issue is with drives that are designed to ONLY use a USB port and NO external power supply. In general, Macs don't supply enough power over one USB port to fully power such drives...and thus you either need an external power supply or must use two USB ports (one for power and data and the other for supplemental power).



It is not a "deal killer"...it can be done, but just realize that if you are in a situation wihere you are away from a wall plug and you want to use a portable external hard drive, it will require the use of two USB ports, which prevents any other devices from being use on USB at that time.

dabigkahuna said:

Concerning the faster bus, memory, etc, I did see some testing results on that at this link:


www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2008/10/macbook-and-macbook-pro-performance-october-2008/


It apparently does NOT check graphics. I was disappoined to see the 2.0 new version was overall about 10% slower. In the two areas where the new version was worse, the difference was pretty big as a percentage. In the two areas where the new one was better, the difference was really tiny.


Comparing the old 2.4 version to the new - the new has about an overall 3% advantage (and didn't win all four categories).

First, you need to re-read the values. The new 2.0 GHz MacBook is FASTER than the old 2.1 GHz MacBook is EVERY category except one...and in that one (Interger Performance) it is only 0.4% slower. Keep in mind that higher numbers are FASTER, not slower. The new 2.0 GHz is actually about 5% faster overall.



Ultimately, I will offer that those differences are statiscally insignificant. You will NOT notice a difference between them in things like Word or email or web browsing. Even if everything was equal except for the processor, a .1 GHz difference is NOTHING in most typical uses. You would only notice a difference in something like running a heavy duty Photoshop filter or encoding a video (i.e. some REALLY processor intensive task)...things like Word or email or web browsing don't even make such processors even THINK about sweating, let alone actually breaking into a sweat, so to speak.



I can not be blunt enough...you should not worry about the fact that the new MacBook has a slower clock speed than the older MacBook. It is an insignificant fact. Put it aside and worry about something else. You are suffering from the "clock speed" brain washing from the Windoze world when the computer and processor manufacturers fooled a lot of people into believing that processor clock speed was "god". It is only ONE factor and generally not that much of a factor for most typical uses.


I could look at the 2.4 version as "just" being $250 more (factoring education discounts on both) and for that you get the faster processor, bigger hard drive, and backlit keyboard. Probably fair - but, frankly, I look at it like it should have kept the old speed processor and thus that $250 extra only gets me a bigger drive and backlit keyboard. Kinda pricey that way!
I would not bother with the 2.4 version...unless you REALLY want the "better" features. For what you are doing right now, you will not likely notice the processor speed bump at all. The larger hard drive would be potentially nice, but if you go with the entry or mid level, you can always upgrade to larger hard drive if you need to do so...the old MacBook's hard drive is user replaceable and the new MacBook's hard drive is even easier to upgrade. Thus, the backlit keyboard is kind of only real "valuable" thing in the 2.4 version (in that you cannot upgrade that yourself and you WOULD notice the difference). Personally, I would save you money for something else.


I'm not sure how to approach the memory issue. All I've read is that Apple memory is really expensive. But I don't know if the upgrade to 4 gb ($135 with teacher discount) is better than just going with 2 gb and later buying all new memory from a third party to bring it up to 4 if I need it.
Apple's prices for memory have dropped DRAMATICALLY. $135 is right on point. Right now it would cost $142 (plus S&H) to do a 4 GB upgrade through Crucial and $140 (plus S&H) through OWC for the 2.0 GHz model. And with the Apple upgrade, THEY install it and it would be covered by the Apple warranty (if you upgrade it, you install it and that memory would NOT be part of the Apple warranty coverage). It used to be that Apple would charge like $400 to $500 for a 4 GB memory upgrade.



Thus, if you are at all inclined to want the full 4 GB, then I would get it now. If you are tight on money and don't need the memory, then wait and do it later if you need it (2 GB will likely be fine for what you need...I run my MacBook Pro with 2 GB because that is all it can take...and it works just fine for most of my things...not that I would not like to have more).


I've done some looking at the local Circuit City keyboards (wireless). Only one was blue tooth, but I also noted that none of the mice was like the one I have, which I like because of the number of programmable buttons (two main buttons, wheel button. Another in front of the wheel, two behind it, two on the side. I could get by without two of them, but I'd like to have that many again. Didn't see any yet.


Don't know about the Macbook, but on my laptop, I can't use the wireless keyboard (usb) unless it is plugged directly into the keyboard! Same with my Brother laser printer.
There are definitely fewer options when it comes to Bluetooth mice. Here is the one that I am using at home:



[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826104085]



You will find it tough to fine a Bluetooth mouse with all those buttons that you mentioned. If you want all those buttons, you will likely have to go with a wired or a wireless RF (i.e. has a dongle) mouse...BUT beware that they may not have a driver that will activate all those buttons on a Mac (at least when using the Mac OS)...just about any mouse will work with the Mac OS, but without a Mac OS specific driver, not all functions will be available.



As I said before, I am not much help in the Bluetooth keyboard area. The only one that I know about for sure is Apple's.



The one thing that I will offer is that likely looking at local stores (such as Circuit City) is like a waste. Bluetooth is just NOT too "mainstream". You will have better luck looking online.


Printing right now is almost 100% black and white - reason for getting the laser. If I absolutely need color on something, I can take it to school. Not for photos - just school stuff that needs color.


But I could see myself printing out photos occasionally.


All the rest would be black and white. Typically almost daily printouts of my gradebook and another sheet of school info. Four times a year, full page progress reports for about 30+ kids. And periodic odds and ends I couldn't exactly predict. Oh, and I MUST be able to print on 3x5 cards.


If I got the computer, I'd probably still use my present laser for these quick and dirty jobs. Unfortunately, it leaves up to 3 black marks on each printout, but usually that isn't critical for what I'm doing. I will replace it with something for sure, but I could get by with it. At the very least, it would seem even if I don't need a printer or what Apple offers doesn't meet my needs, I should get the $100 one since it would be free. The real issue is whether one of the other ones would actually be better for my usage - better to apply the rebate to that. I think one or maybe both of the other ones is wireless? I've read so much stuff lately, I can't remember it all Not sure, but I think the cheapest one may have been best for photos.
I guess my suggestion at this point would be to use your current laser and use the $100 rebate to get one of the lower cost inkjets...i.e. one that ends up free or close to free. If one of them is networkable (whether wireless or wired), then that would be a good choice...you could have it hooked up to the network and still print to it when using the laptop with the wireless connection.


Does Super duper let you a series of different setups for the OS? This also brings up the question of not using partitions. It seems to me that, without partitions, you'd have to backup EVERYTHING on the drive if you want something that would let you essentially go back to a pristine setup. Like I said, I'd like a series of such setups (orginal setup, after I make any updates that already are available, after I install all my programs I start with. Then, any time I have problems, I can go back to the most uptodate clean backup. Actually, I was thinking about creating these on DVDs. Never done this before so not sure of the best approach.
SuperDuper works best with an external hard drive. You can make a 100% duplicate that you can boot off if you internal drive "fritzes"...thus, if your internal drive dies, you plug in the external drive, and power up the computer and you are running again in moments. Then you can get a new internal drive and clone from the external back to the new internal.



SuperDuper can do a "smart clone". This means that it will "update" a clone. In otherwords, it does not need to copy EVERYTHING each time...it just updates from what was cloned last time to the new clone. Thus, after you clone the first time, it becomes MUCH faster.



FWIW, there should be no need to make a clone of the "clean" system...every Mac comes with restore/install CDs/DVDs that will take you back to just like it was when you open it out of the box. Your first clone should be once you get all your setttings set up right and all your programs installed. From there, you can make as many differnet clones as you want (just need more hard drives)...just realize that if you want to use the "smart clone" it can only do that for the last clone you made at any one time. Thus, if you make a second clone, it will have to copy EVERYTHING from scratch...and if you then want to go back to "update" the first clone, it will NOT be able to use the "smart clone" function anymore...that would be availabe for the second clone unless you redo the first clone.


BTW, any idea how much memory the operating system needs if I did partitions? And does it keep growing like Windows does?


If I'm not using boot camp at first - time will tell if I need it - and I decide to not partition, is there any problem partitioning later if I need to install windows/boot camp on it?


Assuming the problem with boot camp and partitioning afterwards is still an issue, what about doing extra partitions first?
It is just not possible to run multiple Mac OS partitions with a Boot Camp partition in Tiger (at least without doing a weird partitioning method...which I have not tried myself). As I said, I don't know if the same restriction is true for Leopard or not. And it did not matter if you partitioned BEFORE or AFTER Boot Camp setup. Thus, if you are going to mess with Boot Camp, then I would assume that partitioning will NOT work.



If you are NOT going to mess with Boot Camp and want to partition, then something on the order of 20 to 30 GB should likely be fine for the Mac OS and programs, but it does somewhat depend on what programs you install. Note that UNLIKE Windoze, Mac programs can reside ANYWHERE and can generally be moved after installation with little to no problems. Mac programs have gotten more Windoze-like in that they do "sprinkle" crap all over the place, so installing a program on another drive will generally STILL result in some files getting added to the OS partitions/drive.



Personally, I would not both with partitioning...with SuperDuper's ability to do a "smart clone", it is kind a moot point.


I've read a lot of comments about the glossy screen. Hard to tell without using one. At home, I'm guessing it wouldn't be an issue. I am set up in a corner, facing out (which means the computer is facing the corner). That would I think, minimize reflections. Wish I could actually test it though.
It is ultimately a personal preference issue. I have used an old MacBook (my mom has one), but I don't recall if the screen annoyed me or not. Granted the screen on the new MacBook is different yet. You will have to just see if you can go to a store and play with it. I know that when I used a friend's HP laptop with a glossy screen, it was completely unreadable in certainl light conditions due to reflections. I won't say that the glossy screen is a definite deal killer for me until I go and see one in action, but I suspect that it is very possible that it is a deal killer for me if/when I need a new laptop.


I saw in another thread that you never got the extended warranties. I know most electronics, if they do go bad, usually do so early. And I know, just like all insurance, that you pay, on average, more than you benefit.

For the lower of the two new MBs, the normal price is $249. But the teacher discount makes it just $183. Would that make much difference in your decision? I'm thinking about not getting it. It could either just save me some money OR it could offset most of that $250 difference between that MB and the top one.
In general, I am not a fan of extended warranties...no matter what the product. Generally speaking, I consider them a waste of money. That might be due to me being lucky...I dunno.



OTOH, the Apple extended warranty does more than just extend the warranty. It gives you three years of phone support for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that came with the compputer from Apple (not third party software). Thus, if you have any OS problems, that is covered. You otherwise only get 90 days of phone support. And for laptops, they generally will replace the laptop battery once under certain situations. Thus, it is much more worth it, especially if you are getting an educational discount. But, also keep in mind that you do NOT need to get it now...you can get it ANYTHING during the first year you own the computer...thus, if you bought the computer today, you could wait and decide to get it next October 16th (don't know if you would still get the discount or not).

[smax013]

BTW, here are some more initial benchmarks;



www.macworld.com/article/136214/macbookbenchmarks.html

[dabigkahuna]

Yeah, I have figured I must either get a new macbook for the graphics - or look for a deal on an old MBP. Not sure how they compare and I have serious doubts I can get one on clearance that will be cheap enough. One of the things I have to consider - if I do the laptop first - is that I may end up never getting an iMac too. Since that is a possibility, I won't be happy with the old MB graphics at all! Besides, I tend to keep one computer a fairly long time. My present laptop (pentium 4 at 2.4 ghz) was bought in early 2004, I think. Maybe 2003, but not later than 2004. So I don't want to be "obsolete" too soon! No problem if I follow-up with an iMac, but that is just a hopuful possibility.

Yeah, the color blindness is just a real aggravation - I'd like to do some photo stuff. I have some real nice photos of Hawaiian scenary that I think matches up well with many calendar photos I've seen, but I pretty much can't adjust things and know it still looks right to normal people.

Glad to know an external drive with its own power supply doesn't use two ports! I wouldn't expect to use any other kind of external so that is not a problem.

However, as I research and especially note people's comments in discussions, one thing caught my eye - the person said the USB ports are so close together they couldn't plug in two of their devices at once! I'll definitely have to look closely at those. Does seem strange that, with so few ports, Apple wouldn't hove the room to improve the spacing - or include AT LEAST one more USB port.

Another comment that concerned me was one that not only said the glossy screen was more like a mirror than Apple's previous glossy screens, but that the color seemed off and kinda drab, etc, like they were using cheap LEDs. Yet some reviews have said the screen is fantastic. Have to check that out more.



I know the speed differences are almost meaningless to MOST things I do. Heck, I ran Office just fine on my 133 mhz laptop - same version I use now! Still just thinking in terms of possible games or if I run windows with something like Parallels. I intend to really try to avoid any Windows stuff, but might have to. I want to check out "Crossover" to see if it runs my Office okay. It does rate the compatibility level very high for my version. Don't know if it handles visual basic stuff or not. I could just use Open Office, but it won't handle my visual basic stuff. If I can find a few Mac versions of games I like, maybe I can get by without windows at all - that is my goal.

I know what you mean about clock speed being less important now. I know my 2.4 ghz machine (pentium) is not going to be as fast as a Core 2 duo system - though I have no idea what the comparison would be. And I know different chip designs impacts things - which is why AMD sometimes had faster chips at lower clock speeds for awhile. But I came up with computers back when 4 mhz was the speed (I started with a Timex 1000). So it's kinda hard to completely ignore it. Habit.

Good to know the memory prices are more rational. So I guess the only possible advantage to getting it from a third party is that I'd get to keep the old memory and could sell it - or save it in case the new memory went bad which isn't likely.

I mostly just check out Circuit City because I can walk to it from home. I use what I find that as a starting point for what to look for. If I walk about twice as far, I do the same with Best Buy.

What's the deal with bluetooth and keyboard/mice? I mean, can you buy separate ones and use both at once, or does bluetooth only let you use one device at a time unless they are designed to somehow work together? Like my usb wireless setup has a sensor that is what plugs into the USB port. The mouse and keyboard send their info to the sensor so no problem.

Also, looking at your mouse, I saw some comments talking about "lag". One kind probably doesn't matter (the couple of seconds to respond if its been sitting unused for over 15 minutes). But it sounded like some were talking abou a lag in actual usuage. I don't notice anything I would call "lag" on my USB wireless mouse.

As for mouse buttons, this is what I really need. Two regular buttons, wheel button (very handy for opening links in new tabs using Firefox), and three other buttons. One of those three closes windows (normally this means closing the active tab in Firefox which is very handy). The other two are for increasing the font size on web pages and for shrinking it. I usually need to do this even on my 15" laptop. Gonna be more of an issue on a 13.3 screen! I can easily repeatedly make the text bigger or smaller and never touch the keyboard. If I had to give up one of these buttons, it would be the one that closes the active tab.

I did see a bluetooth keyboard (logitech) at Circuit City the other day. I think it included a mouse - but don't know if it had enough buttons for that minimum. Have to check and see if it has mac drivers.

On the external hard drives, like with Time Capsule - any issues about partitioning those?
Also, doesn't Time Capsule include some sort of automatic backup? If so, would it be best to use Super-duper instead or do both have their place?


Sorry to hear that Mac programs "sprinkle" stuff all over too. Oh well, right now I'm leaning towards the single partition and, if so, it won't matter.

I bet buying the warranty later doesn't get a discount, but I'll check. It would be nice to be able to at least delay part of the expense.



You say they will replace the battery under certain conditions. I use my present laptop a lot every day, but always plugged in. Only time it runs on batteries is when I do my trip each year and only a small part of the time even then. I'm on the original battery after at least 4.75 years or more. I'm guessing the odds are not strong that they would say a battery should need replacing in three years.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Yeah, I have figured I must either get a new macbook for the graphics - or look for a deal on an old MBP. Not sure how they compare and I have serious doubts I can get one on clearance that will be cheap enough. One of the things I have to consider - if I do the laptop first - is that I may end up never getting an iMac too. Since that is a possibility, I won't be happy with the old MB graphics at all! Besides, I tend to keep one computer a fairly long time. My present laptop (pentium 4 at 2.4 ghz) was bought in early 2004, I think. Maybe 2003, but not later than 2004. So I don't want to be "obsolete" too soon! No problem if I follow-up with an iMac, but that is just a hopuful possibility.

If you want to get an old version (other than the 2.1 GHz that Apple will keep selling), then they are still available. Many stores will have them in stock for a little bit...and they will likely be discounted by about $100 to $200 (no educational discount). For example, here is the black MacBook (2.4 GHz processor, 250 GB hard drive, 2 GB of RAM, etc) for $1200 from MacConnection:



www.macconnection.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=8252915



Similarly, if you thought for some reason you wanted to go to a MacBook Pro, the old versions will still be available through some stores for slightly discounted prices.

dabigkahuna said:

Yeah, the color blindness is just a real aggravation - I'd like to do some photo stuff. I have some real nice photos of Hawaiian scenary that I think matches up well with many calendar photos I've seen, but I pretty much can't adjust things and know it still looks right to normal people.


Glad to know an external drive with its own power supply doesn't use two ports! I wouldn't expect to use any other kind of external so that is not a problem.


However, as I research and especially note people's comments in discussions, one thing caught my eye - the person said the USB ports are so close together they couldn't plug in two of their devices at once! I'll definitely have to look closely at those. Does seem strange that, with so few ports, Apple wouldn't hove the room to improve the spacing - or include AT LEAST one more USB port.

The USB ports can be challenge if the USB cable/device has a big connector. Some times you have to use a "pigtail" (i.e. a short USB "extender" cable) to connect more than one USB item. This is one of the things that is nice about my version fo the MacBook Pro...the two USB ports are on opposite sides of the computer...so I don't encounter this issue. But, the MacBook has ALWAYS had both USB ports on one side, right next to each other. As a result, some items will not work with more than one item plugged in unless you use a "pigtail". For example, I know that I could not do a standard USB cable for say a printer AND my USB flash drive...the flash drive casing would "interfere" with the other USB port.

dabigkahuna said:

Another comment that concerned me was one that not only said the glossy screen was more like a mirror than Apple's previous glossy screens, but that the color seemed off and kinda drab, etc, like they were using cheap LEDs. Yet some reviews have said the screen is fantastic. Have to check that out more.

That is what potentially worries me about the new screens...but I will reserve final judgement until I can put my grubby hands on one. I had my mom bring over her current MacBook (old variety) so that I could refresh my memory of how "glossy" the glossy screen was. It was certainly glossy, but was not unuseable. I could imagine it being annoying in certain lighting conditions, but overall was fine. I still like my matte screen better on my MacBook Pro. I suspect the new screens are "glossier"...it is glass rather than traditional "plastic" that has been used on laptops. I have to imagine that it will be "worse", but I will have to wait and see...I might stop at the Apple store early this week to take a looksie.

dabigkahuna said:

I know the speed differences are almost meaningless to MOST things I do. Heck, I ran Office just fine on my 133 mhz laptop - same version I use now! Still just thinking in terms of possible games or if I run windows with something like Parallels. I intend to really try to avoid any Windows stuff, but might have to. I want to check out "Crossover" to see if it runs my Office okay. It does rate the compatibility level very high for my version. Don't know if it handles visual basic stuff or not. I could just use Open Office, but it won't handle my visual basic stuff. If I can find a few Mac versions of games I like, maybe I can get by without windows at all - that is my goal.

I know what you mean about clock speed being less important now. I know my 2.4 ghz machine (pentium) is not going to be as fast as a Core 2 duo system - though I have no idea what the comparison would be. And I know different chip designs impacts things - which is why AMD sometimes had faster chips at lower clock speeds for awhile. But I came up with computers back when 4 mhz was the speed (I started with a Timex 1000). So it's kinda hard to completely ignore it. Habit.

Ok, first I will apologize in advance, I am going to be rather blunt since you don't seem to be hearing me...



STOP worring about the speed difference between the old version and the new version. Based upon what you have described as your current use and likely future use, it is not a matter of the clock speed being meaningless in MOST things you do, but in ALL things you do. The computer useage you have described will NOT tax the processor at all. Even if all things were equal except the processor, you will NOT likely notice a difference between a 2.1 GHz processor and a 2.0 GHz processor. The only possible time you might notice a difference if you were doing a processor intensive LONG task like encode a movie prior to burning it to DVD...if a 1 hour movie to 2 hours to encode with the 2.0 GHz (not an accurate time, but an illustrative example), it might take 1 hour 50 minutes with a 2.1 GHz...the point is that some REALLY processor intensive task that might take an hour or two with the 2.0 GHz processor would only save you a few minutes with a 2.1 GHz processor. And that assumes that EVERYTHING else (amount of memory, speed of memory, cache size of processor, bus speed, hard drive speed, etc) are all identical, which they are NOT when comparing a new MacBook with 2.0 GHz processor to a old MacBook with a 2.1 GHz processor.



The point is that you are stressing over an insignificant thing. Stop stressing about it. Make the decision between the new and old MacBook based upon price and whether the advanced graphics of the new MacBook is more important than having a Firewire port of the old MacBook. Processor clock speed should NOT be a factor in your decision, unless you WANT to spend more money to get a 2.4 GHz processor, which unless you DRAMATICALLY change your computer useage would a complete waste of money (at least relative to the processor gains). The stuff that you listed will JUST NOT GAIN from incremental increases (even going from 2.0 to 2.4 GHz) in clock speed.

dabigkahuna said:

Good to know the memory prices are more rational. So I guess the only possible advantage to getting it from a third party is that I'd get to keep the old memory and could sell it - or save it in case the new memory went bad which isn't likely.


I mostly just check out Circuit City because I can walk to it from home. I use what I find that as a starting point for what to look for. If I walk about twice as far, I do the same with Best Buy.

I am not saying that Circuit City or Best Buy are bad stores...merely that their overall selection is limited. As a result, you will be hard pressed to find much in the way of things like Bluetooth keyboards or mice there. You will have MUCH better luck online for such things.


What's the deal with bluetooth and keyboard/mice? I mean, can you buy separate ones and use both at once, or does bluetooth only let you use one device at a time unless they are designed to somehow work together? Like my usb wireless setup has a sensor that is what plugs into the USB port. The mouse and keyboard send their info to the sensor so no problem.
Yes, you can use both a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard. Bluetooth can handle more than one device....and they need not be part of a "set". You can buy a separate mouse and keyboard and it should be fine (I say "should" only because I have never done it myself as I don't use a Bluetooth keyboard).


Also, looking at your mouse, I saw some comments talking about "lag". One kind probably doesn't matter (the couple of seconds to respond if its been sitting unused for over 15 minutes). But it sounded like some were talking abou a lag in actual usuage. I don't notice anything I would call "lag" on my USB wireless mouse.
I have not noticed any serious lag...other than if I leave the mouse inactive for a period of time...it takes a moment for it to "reconnect" to the computer. But, then I have not used it with a game or something where fast tracking is kind of vital.


As for mouse buttons, this is what I really need. Two regular buttons, wheel button (very handy for opening links in new tabs using Firefox), and three other buttons. One of those three closes windows (normally this means closing the active tab in Firefox which is very handy). The other two are for increasing the font size on web pages and for shrinking it. I usually need to do this even on my 15" laptop. Gonna be more of an issue on a 13.3 screen! I can easily repeatedly make the text bigger or smaller and never touch the keyboard. If I had to give up one of these buttons, it would be the one that closes the active tab.


I did see a bluetooth keyboard (logitech) at Circuit City the other day. I think it included a mouse - but don't know if it had enough buttons for that minimum. Have to check and see if it has mac drivers.
I will be blunt again...you will likely be SOL on the buttons. There are NOT alot of mice that are fully Mac compatible with all those buttons. There are some, but they are not nearly as prevalent as in the Windoze world. As I said, just about ANY Windoze mouse will work with the Mac, but you might only get the two main buttons and the scroll wheel to work...all the other buttons usually require a driver from the mouse manufacturer and many do not spend any time or money writing such drivers for the Mac. Then factor in that Bluetooth mice, in and of themselves, are rather rare...the odds of you finding a Bluetooth mouse with all those buttons that will work with all those buttons functional with a Mac is rather small. The best that I am aware of is Apple's Bluetooth Mighty Mouse or a Bluetooth mouse for the Mac by Microsoft...both essentially have 4 buttons...right button, left button, the scroll button, and a "back" button (or "squeeze" in the case of the Mighty Mouse).



The point is that you might not be able to have the same button configuration you are used to having with your Windoze PeeCee on a Mac.


On the external hard drives, like with Time Capsule - any issues about partitioning those?
Time Capsule is NOT a typical external hard drive. It runs proprietary/special formatting, etc. It is a NETWORK drive. I don't recall if you can partition it or notusing the Airport software...my dad has one but it has been a while since I set it up and I don't recall off the top of my head if you could partition it or not.



A regular USB (or Firewire) external drive can be partitioned to your hearts content.


Also, doesn't Time Capsule include some sort of automatic backup? If so, would it be best to use Super-duper instead or do both have their place?
Time Capsule can be used as a "typical" network drive AND/OR it can be used in conjunction with Time Machine (the built in backup utility in the Mac OS). Just be aware that you will be relying on the network connection, which may not be as fast as a direct external hard drive.


Sorry to hear that Mac programs "sprinkle" stuff all over too. Oh well, right now I'm leaning towards the single partition and, if so, it won't matter.
It is not anywhere NEAR as bad as what Windoze programs tend to do, but it is worse than it used to be. Installation of Mac programs used to be a nice clean affair...not so much any more.

[dabigkahuna]

About the "pigtail" - that may be fine, but would I run into the same problem I have with devices that will only work when directly plugged into the computer (won't work with a hub), or does a pigtail not have the same limitation?

I'd be interested in your observations, if you get to the Apple store, not only of the glossiness issue, but whether you think the MB LED screen seems washed out, lack contrast, or otherwise weak. For what its worth, I saw one person say it was better when calibrated to 2.2 Television Gamma rather than the default 1.8 something or other.



Looks like I may have to sacrifice on the mouse. As an alternative, what about keyboards with programmable special keys? Just need two - one I can set to enlarge text in the brower and one to shrink it will meet my minimum wishes.
Talking about network connections - which I've never had before - I do intend to use wired connections normally for most things. Small apartment - no reason to limit my speed.



I think all my other questions are settled.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

About the "pigtail" - that may be fine, but would I run into the same problem I have with devices that will only work when directly plugged into the computer (won't work with a hub), or does a pigtail not have the same limitation?

A "pigtail" is basically just a short USB cable. Some "bulky" USB devices come with them. Both one of my flash drives and a camera memory card reader came with one. Some USB device manufacturers KNOW that their device is too "bulky" to fit in the space where some USB ports are located, so they provide a "pigtail". Here is an example of one:




The idea is that the connector that connects to the computer (the one on the left) is small enough to fit just fine at a USB port and it then "pushes" the connection of the device away from the computer. It is basically just a very short USB extension cable...you can also use standard USB extension cables (i.e. those that are 3 ft or longer to be used to put USB devices further away if the original USB cable is not long enough).

dabigkahuna said:

I'd be interested in your observations, if you get to the Apple store, not only of the glossiness issue, but whether you think the MB LED screen seems washed out, lack contrast, or otherwise weak. For what its worth, I saw one person say it was better when calibrated to 2.2 Television Gamma rather than the default 1.8 something or other.

I will likely stop by the Apple store tomorrow or Tuesday. I am mainly curious for myself, but if I do stop by, I will let you know my thoughts.

dabigkahuna said:

Looks like I may have to sacrifice on the mouse. As an alternative, what about keyboards with programmable special keys? Just need two - one I can set to enlarge text in the brower and one to shrink it will meet my minimum wishes.

I am betting that you will NOT find a mouse that will fulfill your wishes...at least not one that is Bluetooth. There is a slight, small chance that you could find a mouse with that number of button that is wired, but your chances are still small.

Finding a keyboard with programmable buttons might be just as tough. Again, just about any USB Windoze keyboard will work just fine with a Mac, but the problem again is drivers. Not too many folks "make" Mac specific drivers for their peripherals. This will include keyboards. For example, I am assuming that my Logitech G15 "gaming" keyboard that I use with my new Windoze desktop would work fine with my Mac (it is a USB keyboard), but I don't believe I would find a driver that would allow me to use the programmable macro keys. I actually use a Windoze IBM USB keyboard with my older PowerMac G4 tower...and the programmable keys (for launching programs) do NOT work with it (but did with Windoze XP).

Now, having said that, there WILL be ways to accomplish what you want with just a standard keyboard and utilities. Most likely the built in script/macro function of Mac OS can be setup to do what you want and then assigned to a "keystroke" combination. I would have to "play" with that to figure it out as I don't use that ability right now, but I have no doubt you could find a way to do it.

dabigkahuna said:

Talking about network connections - which I've never had before - I do intend to use wired connections normally for most things. Small apartment - no reason to limit my speed.

In terms of Internet connection, wireless vs. wired will not really matter. I have yet to come across a residential broadband connection that is faster than current WiFi connections (802.11g or 802.11n).

If you do any file transfers WITHIN your network (i.e. from computer to computer or if you get a Time Capsule, from computer to Time Capsule or vice versa), then it will matter. ALL Macs come with Gigabit ethernet as does the Time Capsule. Gigabit ethernet (the wired connection) will be WAY faster than wireless (if you get a Time Capsule, then it will be 802.11n). For the occasional copy of a file or two, it may not matter, but for moving LARGE amounts of data, it can be a BIG, BIG difference. For example, if you do get a Time Capsule and decide to use Time Machine with it, then make sure you do the first backup over the Gigabit wired connection...even then, it will likely take a while.

[dabigkahuna]

Something else you might want to note when checking out the MB - it seems to run a lot cooler. I checked one day. I was there first thing so I don't know how long they had been on, but lifting up to feel the bottom, there was a clear difference (they only had a new MBP, but I assume it would apply to both because of the design.

Which brings up an idea I just got. Try to save money, I thought:

1. Don't get the warranty - at least not now (saves $183).

2. Don't get Time Capsule right now (saves $279).

3. Get another drive that will fit in the Mac (a 7200 rpm model) plus an enclosure for the original 160 gb hard drive and use it as an external. I could partition the old one and put those copies of the OS with changes as my "clean" backups and leave the rest of it for backing up data. Then later I can get time capsule. I haven't checked models yet, but maybe even get one that holds more gb.

There are two possible negatives. I lose the USB connection which I may want for a printer on Time Capsule (or external HD). With just the two USB's on the computer, it is always possible I'll run out even using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse.

The other is the heat factor using a 7200 rpm drive. Faster usually means more friction, thus heat. But I also think I saw a post from someone elsewhere saying they got a Seagate 7200 rpm that took less power than the 5400!

And I guess transferring files over USB would be slower than the ethernet - but the big stuff (backup of clean OS states - would be fairly rare.

Any opinions on this?

One other question about the most basic software - browser and mail. I use firefox and thunderbird and I think both are available for the mac. What do you use? The browser isn't that big of a deal since you can easily more than one, but it will be important to make a decision about the mail client from the very start!

Thanks.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Something else you might want to note when checking out the MB - it seems to run a lot cooler. I checked one day. I was there first thing so I don't know how long they had been on, but lifting up to feel the bottom, there was a clear difference (they only had a new MBP, but I assume it would apply to both because of the design.

Which brings up an idea I just got. Try to save money, I thought:


1. Don't get the warranty - at least not now (saves $183).


2. Don't get Time Capsule right now (saves $279).


3. Get another drive that will fit in the Mac (a 7200 rpm model) plus an enclosure for the original 160 gb hard drive and use it as an external. I could partition the old one and put those copies of the OS with changes as my "clean" backups and leave the rest of it for backing up data. Then later I can get time capsule. I haven't checked models yet, but maybe even get one that holds more gb.


There are two possible negatives. I lose the USB connection which I may want for a printer on Time Capsule (or external HD). With just the two USB's on the computer, it is always possible I'll run out even using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse.


The other is the heat factor using a 7200 rpm drive. Faster usually means more friction, thus heat. But I also think I saw a post from someone elsewhere saying they got a Seagate 7200 rpm that took less power than the 5400!


And I guess transferring files over USB would be slower than the ethernet - but the big stuff (backup of clean OS states - would be fairly rare.


Any opinions on this?


One other question about the most basic software - browser and mail. I use firefox and thunderbird and I think both are available for the mac. What do you use? The browser isn't that big of a deal since you can easily more than one, but it will be important to make a decision about the mail client from the very start!


Thanks.

A workable option. If money is tight, then I would certainly hold off on the AppleCare warranty...you can always get it ANY time during the first year, so it gives you a whole year to decide if you consider it worth it.



The Time Capsule can always be "added" into the system at a later date, so again if money is tight, then hold off on it for now. There is no need to get it now...UNLESS you DO NOT have a WiFi equipped broadband router (assuming you WANT a WiFi connection). I would not worry too much about USB ports...a hub WILL work if you need it. Even if you decide to go with both a wired keyboard and mouse, you can plug the mouse into many USB keyboards (two of my USB keyboards have built-in USB hub that a mouse works just fine on...as do the Apple keyboards)...thus, only use one USB port for the keyboard and mouse. Beyond those, the two "consistant" things that people tend to use a USB port are printers and external hard drives or flash drives. If the external hard drive is NOT bus powered, then it should work just fine with a hub...as should a printer (although some printers can be "finicky" about hubs...none of mine are). And if you get a network equipped printer (whether wired or wireless), then you don't have to worry about that.



I would certainly get some sort of external hard drive. Could be one you buy as is (i.e. a Maxtor or Western Digital) or one where you buy the "bare" drive and an external enclosure. This would be your clone drive. If you want, you could do this as a 2.5" laptop drive that could go in the MacBook in the future (I would not do that upgrade now...if you want a larger drive, then order the computer with the larger drive...Apple's prices are well within reason and THEY install it and cover it with their warranty...if YOU do it, then the drive manufacturer's warranty will cover the drive, but YOU have to deal with them instead of Apple...unless there is a significant cost benefit, it is generally better to get it from Apple, which would mean it would also be covered by the AppleCare extended warranty if you got it). If you don't want/need the larger drive now, then hold off on it for now and just use the drive that comes with the base computer...you can always upgrade it later. And I would not worry too much about 7200 rpm...get...don't get. You will not likely notice the extra speed unless you are doing really disk intensive stuff (which word processing, spreadsheets, email, and web browsing are NOT)...so you can save the money and stick with a 5400 rpm drive with larger capacity.



A note: use of an external USB drive vs. Time Capsule: in many situations, the USB drive may be faster. If you can achieve FULL "speed" with Gigabit ethernet, then copying files to TIme Capsule could be faster than USB, but there is usually enough network "overhead" that USB can sometimes win. And you CANNOT boot off the Time Capsule, so if you want to create a bootable clone, you will need at least ONE USB drive.



As to software, for the browser, Macs come with Safari, but you can also get Firefox. You can certainly have both installed and use which ever one you want. In general, I use Safari, but note that not all websites "play nice" with Safari (for example, PCWorld in general works fine with Safari, but the forums will only allow "Plain Text" entering of posts...if you use the "Rich Text" option to write posts, then you will need Firefox). For email, Macs come with Mail. It works rather well...but I don't use it. I use Microsoft Entourage (basically the Mac "version" of Outlook). I honestly don't know if Thunderbird is available for the Mac or not (it looks like there is a Mac version).

[dabigkahuna]

I'm estimating, with tax, just getting the computer will cost me about $1310. Have to decide about whether to get iWorks though as well as some kind of external drive - like to do those clean clones as I set things up right from the start.

BTW, what's the deal with using things like iWorks on more than one computer and "family packs"? I mean, if I get an iMac later, I'd want it on both. Do I need a family pack version to do that?

And what are the "limits" of a family pack usage? I don't live with other family, but I have family living elsewhere. If I got them to switch to a mac, would a family pack allow them to use my copy or is considered to just be people living in the same household?

I don't "need" a wi-fi connection, but I like to maximize my protection and have heard that a router also serves as a hardware protection. And if I was going that far, I figured might as well get the HD with time capsule. Could be totally screwed up on that idea though - all new to me.

The reason I worry about the USB ports is because on my PC, both ports are used by devices that will not work with a hub. I guess a wired keyboard would work with a hub, but I sure have enjoyed using a wireless setup! Of the two, a wireless mouse is more important by far. I don't suppose I could plug a wired keyboard into a hub and whatever usb based wireless mouse would then work out of that keyboard or other port on the hub?

Right now, what I expect to use on USB (if not using a bluetooth setup) would be:

laser printer (as on my PC, I assume it MUST be plugged directly into the computer port)

keyboard/mouse

iphone sync cable

cheap printer they offer for free after rebate

thumbdrive

hard drive (powered)

That's a lot of potential stuff for two USB ports (if I do use the laser printer, all the rest would go on a hub out of the other port!!!). No problem for me to use a powered hub, but I know my laser and wireless keyboard on my PC won't work even with that. Don't know about the other things listed above.

Do network printers work directly with the computer or do you need a router or something?

Oh dang, just reviewed your own mouse info and noted this:

Side-to-Side Scrolling Plus Zoom: Perfect for viewing digital photos and spreadsheets. Instantly zoom in and out. Scroll horizontally or vertically.

Note the "zoom" feature. It only specifies photos and spreadsheets, but do you know if it will work to make web pages bigger so I can better read the text? That would really be all I need.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

I'm estimating, with tax, just getting the computer will cost me about $1310. Have to decide about whether to get iWorks though as well as some kind of external drive - like to do those clean clones as I set things up right from the start.

BTW, what's the deal with using things like iWorks on more than one computer and "family packs"? I mean, if I get an iMac later, I'd want it on both. Do I need a family pack version to do that?


And what are the "limits" of a family pack usage? I don't live with other family, but I have family living elsewhere. If I got them to switch to a mac, would a family pack allow them to use my copy or is considered to just be people living in the same household?

Family packs are only good for your household...i.e. people that live with you. And no, you cannot legally install it on more than one machine with a single license...at least not use it on multiple machines to my knowledge (some software EULA's permit installtion on more than one machine as long as it is only actively used on one machine at a time...some EULA's allow the installation on a dekstop and a laptop...you would have to read the EULA...here is the iWork EULA and it clearly indicates only one computer at a time, unless you have a family pack: images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iwork.pdf).

dabigkahuna said:

I don't "need" a wi-fi connection, but I like to maximize my protection and have heard that a router also serves as a hardware protection. And if I was going that far, I figured might as well get the HD with time capsule. Could be totally screwed up on that idea though - all new to me.

Do you have a router (with or without WiFi) now? What type of broadband do you have? If you don't have a router right now, then it might make sense to get the Time Capsule now...assuming you would plan on getting one at some point...after all, there is not point in getting a "standard" router now only to "dump it" when you were ready to get a Time Capsule...would be a kind of waste of money. If you have a router, then it should work just fine with a MacBook (and/or future iMac), so I would say hold off the on the Time Capsule unless you REALLY want it for the network storage/Time Machine backup capability.



But, yes, if you DO NOT have a router, then one is a good idea...especially if you want to run more than one computer on your Internet connection, but also from a computer protection point of view...a broadband (NAS) router will act like a firewall. If you don't have router, then I certainly hope you are running some sort of software firewall on your current computer.

dabigkahuna said:

The reason I worry about the USB ports is because on my PC, both ports are used by devices that will not work with a hub. I guess a wired keyboard would work with a hub, but I sure have enjoyed using a wireless setup! Of the two, a wireless mouse is more important by far. I don't suppose I could plug a wired keyboard into a hub and whatever usb based wireless mouse would then work out of that keyboard or other port on the hub?


Right now, what I expect to use on USB (if not using a bluetooth setup) would be:


laser printer (as on my PC, I assume it MUST be plugged directly into the computer port)


keyboard/mouse


iphone sync cable


cheap printer they offer for free after rebate


thumbdrive


hard drive (powered)


That's a lot of potential stuff for two USB ports (if I do use the laser printer, all the rest would go on a hub out of the other port!!!). No problem for me to use a powered hub, but I know my laser and wireless keyboard on my PC won't work even with that. Don't know about the other things listed above.

Of all those USB devices, only the mouse/keyboard (if you use a USB mouse/keyboard) and maybe the hard drive would need to be consistantly plugged into the computer. All the other stuff is used a more "intermitent" basis and could be plugged in as needed. Granted, that is a pain in the rear, but it is certainly one way to go. But, everyone of those items should work with a hub...might need to be a powered hub, but they should work with a hub.

dabigkahuna said:

Do network printers work directly with the computer or do you need a router or something?

Depends on the printer and how you connect it. Some printers are WiFi equipped and can have a computer connect directly by way of WiFi. If wired, you would gererally have the printer connect to a router/switch as would the computer, but you could connect directly from the ethernet port to the printer (and you would not even need a crossover cable...Mac ethernet ports are auto-sensing/switching from normal mode to crossover mode and vice versa)...but this could present a problem in maintaining your Internet connection AND hooking up the printer. Thus, the most common way would be to connect through a router/switch.

dabigkahuna said:

Oh dang, just reviewed your own mouse info and noted this:


Side-to-Side Scrolling Plus Zoom: Perfect for viewing digital photos and spreadsheets. Instantly zoom in and out. Scroll horizontally or vertically.


Note the "zoom" feature. It only specifies photos and spreadsheets, but do you know if it will work to make web pages bigger so I can better read the text? That would really be all I need.

To my knowledge, how the scroll button functions is a function of the program that you are using...and for browsing, it will scroll up and down and right and left (i.e. pages that are wider than the screen). I don't believe you can reprogram it to something else, but I have never considered/looked at it that way.

[dabigkahuna]

I went by the Apple store today. The MB is way cooler than the old MB. I felt the bottom of both and the difference was huge - and they had been on all day. The pros were also hotter than the MB - except for one which was on a stand so air could better surround it.

Tried to figure out the screen quality. Frankly, I had a hard time telling much between the old and new MB. But I could see where some may talkabout a "washed out" look or lack of contrast. Found the way to change the setting I mentioned to you earlier (the one that switches from somethnig with 1.8 in the name to 2.2 in the name. That definitely darkened the black on the normal desktop. Of course, the lighting in the store is much different than my home and the desktop display is more involved than what I have, but I did have some impression that the angle you view the MB from may be more limited than my old PC.

Made a rough check of horizontal screen size. Looks like the widescreen 13.3 is only a fraction of an inch narrower than my normal 15". That would seem to mean that looking at websites will let me see them as well - though not as much vertically at one time, so that's good.

Still have more research to do keyboards and mice though.

Bummer that iWorks won't let you have the program on two computers without a family pack. I don't know if I'll get both a MB and iMac - just a possibility. Don't want to spend for for a family pack I may not use and don't want to buy a single user and later have to buy another copy!

By any chance is there a place that lists software with summaries as to whether they allow a single copy to be used on two computers (only one on at a time)? I figure games wouldn't, but, besides iWorks, I'm sure there will be other productivity items I'd get. Filemaker Pro for example. Might even get Office Mac someday - especially if they enable visual Basic again (but I'm hoping I can just use crossover Mac with my windows 2000 version).

I don't have a router now, nor WiFi. My laptop is connected to the internet with a cable modem (Time Warner/Roadrunner).

I gather you think I should just get Time Capsule, since I have nothing now? I don't know if I'll ever use more than one computer on it - just a possibility. WiFi would be handy with my iPhone. So Time Capsule is a broadband (NAS) router? (I don't know about any router differences).



My present computer uses Zone Alarm security suite - with a subscription ending in a couple weeks! If I get the MB, I may still need to use this temporarily because of Office stuff I'm using, but I would no longer need to connect it to the internet.

Back to USB, you think I could plug the laser printer into one port (since I already know that's the only way it will work) but then connect all the rest into a hub off the other (keyboard/mouse, iphone, inkjet printer, thumbdrive, powered hard drive)? That's five items on a hub. Granted, I can only plug some in at a time, but would often be convenient to do them all.

And, if they can all be used at once, would some wireless keyboard/mice work off a hub? I know my present one won't, but maybe that isn't the norm? Just hoping you happen to know because when I asked about connecting wireless keyboard/mouse at the Apple store, the guy said he thought so, but it didn't sound like he really knew.

Oh, about your mouse, it wasn't the scroll buttons I was talking about. The website said there was buttons to zoom on photos and spreadsheets. I was hoping it also zoomed on websites, if you know.

Thanks.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Bummer that iWorks won't let you have the program on two computers without a family pack. I don't know if I'll get both a MB and iMac - just a possibility. Don't want to spend for for a family pack I may not use and don't want to buy a single user and later have to buy another copy!

By any chance is there a place that lists software with summaries as to whether they allow a single copy to be used on two computers (only one on at a time)? I figure games wouldn't, but, besides iWorks, I'm sure there will be other productivity items I'd get. Filemaker Pro for example. Might even get Office Mac someday - especially if they enable visual Basic again (but I'm hoping I can just use crossover Mac with my windows 2000 version).

You could got to Office for the Mac...the Home & Student edition only costs about $130 (can get it slightly less from Amazon) and it allows you to run it on up to three computers (in your hourehold). You cannot use it for "commercial" use, but I gather from some things you have hinted at that you are either a student or a teacher...if so, then you would be able to use it for personal use and for "work" (i.e. if you are a teacher).

And even if you want to stick with iWork, the family pack is only $20 more than the "single" license.

I am not aware of a place or site that lists how many computers that you can install/run/etc a program on...you will likely have to research them one by one.

dabigkahuna said:

I don't have a router now, nor WiFi. My laptop is connected to the internet with a cable modem (Time Warner/Roadrunner).

I gather you think I should just get Time Capsule, since I have nothing now? I don't know if I'll ever use more than one computer on it - just a possibility. WiFi would be handy with my iPhone. So Time Capsule is a broadband (NAS) router? (I don't know about any router differences).

First, we should make sure you understand what Time Capsule is. Time Capsule is basically an Airport Extreme Base Station with built-in hard drive. An Airport Extreme Base Station is Apple's 802.11n equipped broadband (NAS) router...which is basically three devices in one...a broadband router, an 802.11n WiFi access point, and a Gigabit network switch. Time Capsule basically adds a network hard drive into the mix...and it is designed to work with Time Machine, Mac OS X's built-in backup utility (otherwise, you use an external drive or internal drive attached directly to the computer).

Should you get Time Capsule? Maybe...maybe not. I would certainly tend to recommend SOME sort of broadband router with an always on broadband connection such as a cable modem. If you do NOT run a router, you should DEFINITELY be running some sort of software firewall, which it appears you are. Personally, I tend to recommend both a router AND a software firewall that watch outgoing traffic (such as Zone Alarm). The latter is not as necessary at this time with Macs, but I still believe it is a good idea even for a Mac (I consider it a requirement for Windoze). Thus, I would certainly suggest a router regardless...especially if you think you might get an iMac later on (or even if you keep you old computer around for while)...while you may not ever use both exactly at the same time, you might switch between the two and it would be more "convient" to not have to swap out cables.

So, my point was that if you do NOT have a router and you decide you will get a router...and you find the idea of a Time Capsule useful, then I would suggest getting the Time Capsule now rather than getting a "plain" router now and dumping it later for a Time Capsule. In other words, why spend money on a "plain" router now only to "trash it" later if you decided to get a Time Capsule. If you are unsure you want/need Time Capsule or KNOW you do NOT want a Time Capsule, then you can get a "plain" router now. Only you can decide if you feel a Time Capsule would be worth it for you in the end.

dabigkahuna said:

Back to USB, you think I could plug the laser printer into one port (since I already know that's the only way it will work) but then connect all the rest into a hub off the other (keyboard/mouse, iphone, inkjet printer, thumbdrive, powered hard drive)? That's five items on a hub. Granted, I can only plug some in at a time, but would often be convenient to do them all.

And, if they can all be used at once, would some wireless keyboard/mice work off a hub? I know my present one won't, but maybe that isn't the norm? Just hoping you happen to know because when I asked about connecting wireless keyboard/mouse at the Apple store, the guy said he thought so, but it didn't sound like he really knew.

Short answer, yes, it should work with the laser printer in one port...and everything else in a powered USB hub. Key operative word is "should". Won't know until you try. Unfortunately, many USB devices sometimes have "quirks" and you won't know how those "quirks" play out with a computer until you try. I will note that there is a small chance that your laser printer might work with a hub with a Mac...the fact that it does not work with a hub with your current computer could be a Windoze driver issue or even something "quirky" with your current computer.

As to your current wireless mouse and keyboard, they may not even work with a Mac. I assume it is the type that has its own wireless dongle (receiver). Many times those types do NOT have Mac specific drivers and thus, I don't know if they will work with a Mac at all.

Now, keep in mind that if you go with a Bluetooth mouse and/or keyboard, there is no USB port used for that at all. Bluetooth is built into the Mac, so there is nothing to stick in a USB port for a Bluetooth device.

dabigkahuna said:

Oh, about your mouse, it wasn't the scroll buttons I was talking about. The website said there was buttons to zoom on photos and spreadsheets. I was hoping it also zoomed on websites, if you know.

The point was that I am pretty sure the "zooming" is done by the scroll wheel...only in certain application. For example, I believe the scroll wheel will zoom in and zoom out on pictures in iPhoto. If I get a chance, I will play around with it and report back.

On a general note, you have mentioned potentially getting an iMac in addition to a MacBook at some point in the future. From what I recall of your potential use, I cannot help but ask why. I am certainly no going to knock the concept of getting another computer just because you like computers and so forth (after all, I have WAY more computers than I can actually use at once)...but you don't seem to be of the same "computer geek" factor as I am. Thus, it kinds of seems to be a potential waste of money for you to get multiple computers, when just one might work fine. You could easily just go with a MacBook (or MacBook Pro if you needed the more sophisticated graphics) and use it both as a desktop replacement and as a computer for rare trips. A MacBook will work just fine with an external keyboard, mouse and monitor. In fact, that is primarily how my mom uses her MacBook...the majority of the time it sits on a desktop stand hooked to a wired keyboard and mouse and a 20 in LCD monitor...and USB printer. You could easily do the same and not both with an iMac.

[dabigkahuna]

Problem with Office for the Mac is it doesn't handle the visual basic stuff I have in my existing documents. I haven't been able to find out of that Crossover Mac program will run those things or just limited to running the programs without those things. Might end up either just not using those things or might be what forces me to put Windows on the Mac (I hope not!).

Oh, I'm a retired teacher, but I still work a little part time at a local private school, thus my heavy usage of Excel especially for my rather complicated gradebook I made.

If I understand this correctly, the Time Capsule is exactly the same as the Airport Extreme $179 unit, but with the network hard drive (better quality HD?) which works with Time Machine.

For another$120, you get the 500 GB drive with Time Capsule.

Advantage: Less desk space than adding a separate drive. Better quality drive? Best bang for the buck? Set to work with Time Machine (is this ever an issue with other external drives?)

Disadvantage: Can't boot from it. So what happens if your internal drive messes up? And if Time Machine is making constant backups, if you got something defective or a virus is in the internal HD, wouldn't that just be copied to Time Capsule?

This - and the fact that I know Windows gradually breaks down without a reinstall so it is sluggish - like mine is now - is why I'd like to have some "images" (as we'd do on a PC) that I can just throw back in rather than starting comletely over.

Probably wouldn't have more than two or three (one after I get everything installed the way I want at first, then, later as I add more stuff, do it again. But once set, I would not want anything changing in it untless I specifically told it too.

Since you said you have to put a copy in a partition, that makes it seem that a different external drive would be better - divide it into three partitions (two for those basic clean backups and the rest for daily data changes and maybe some applications I don't put on the internal drive).

On the PC, I imagined ONLY backing up the partition containing the OS periodically like this and, if things got bad, put the ghost image most recent back in and then reinstalling the applications. A pain, but not taking nearly as much space - and probably able to put the images on DVD disks. I have the feeling with the mac with the single partition, I'd have to move the entire thing to the other HD which would be darn big and not able to put on a DVD setup.

So, with all that in mind, which approach (Airport Extreme vs Time Capsule) would you recommend and what is the best approach to making those clean copies I mentioned. Or am I being paranoid?

I didn't set this up on my present PC. I can go back and start over from the original disks, but with some of the updates since I bought it, I can't just use the original disks to make corrections except by starting from scratch before the service pack upgrades. I'd have to start over from scratch. I might do that once I have a new computer with everything I need on it, but I can't risk it now. Heck, I'm not even sure if I know where everything is now!
On the mac, I know some don't use software protection, but I think that may be an unnecessary risk. What do you use? Don't want to bog down my system and get those messages so much that says this or that is trying to do something and it is so hard to tell whether to approve or deny.
I guess on the keyboard/mouse, I'll look for the best bluetooth option I can get. If that means no extra buttons, might have to just live with that, just to minimize how much has to work with USB. Actually, maybe just start with the built in keyboard/track pad and then see how everything else works. If they, especially the laser printer, works with a hub, then I can consider keyboard/mouse that uses usb and have more options. When I replace the laser printer, I'll look into whether a wi-fi, or network printer will be best, or one that just plugs into the Airport Extreme or Time Capsule unit.

My current keyboard/mouse needs replacing anyway. It works, but the mouse (uses rechargable AA batteries) no longer charges properly. I have to keep putting the batteries in a separate charger every couple days. I might try hooking it up to the mac, just to see what works and what doesn't, but that would be just a test process.There is a cradle that holds the mouse for recharging that is also the receiver apparently. The wire from it to the USB connector is long enough for me to set it several feet away from the computer.

Let me know if you find that you can zoom with your mouse on web pages. I appreciate it.

The idea of getting both an iMac and a MB came about originally when I found out that I could get the bottom level of each for about the same price as a single MB Pro that I would have wanted (I think it was the mid level pro - around $2500. Since the iMac would have the power - or more - of the MBP, it seemed logical even if I would only occasionally need a laptop for trips (however, my PC is HEAVY - something like 8 pounds, I think). With a lighter MB, it may be I'd take it to school sometimes so my usage may change.

Now, with he much better graphics, I may not need the iMac at all. I know I won't be able to do some things - like really heavy graphics games - but I only need a few games to keep me happy that have replay value (a reason I like the Doom series, though I finally got tired of the ones I have, it took years).

So, I'm hoping to just stick with the MB until I upgrade again years from now. The MB would probably still be fine for my trips then and so I'd probably make my next computer an iMac. We're talking about maybe 4 years or more from now when, hopefully, there will be a lot of improvements in computing.

The main difference with this time is I'll definitely try to follow the
MB purchase with an external monitor before too long. Then I'll be
asking whether I should get a 22" (typically not more than $300) from a
third party, or look at that new 24" one from Apple! But I'm not buying
any yet.

I'm sorta a computer geek. Not as much as before - and I never had the money to buy all the stuff I'd like to have owned. I've pretty much always kept my computers for 5 years. But I work with them all the time, used to even program in machine code on my first one. But when programs got better and more varied, I did most of my "programming" within existing programs - thus some pretty darn complicated formulas in Excel plus some visual basic stuff. Had some really nice stuff with visual basic in Access too. Fortunately, I don't need those capabilities in Access now, but would still like it in Excel.

I would like to see what I can get by with using iWorks - just for the challenge if nothing else. But I'm betting the spreadsheet won't cover my needs for my big stuff. Also thinking about looking at Filemaker Pro.

[dabigkahuna]

Just an addition about mice. Mine is pretty much the MX900 (but not bluetooth - I connect with USB. Maybe mine is the MX700. Regardless, the mouse looks exactly like what I have. Unfortunately, I think I saw that the mx900 is no longer available!

So, at least for PCs, there is/was one that had lots of buttons with bluetooth. Reading various user comments on various logitech mice, I found a reference to this:

http://www.versiontr...fo/macosx/13443

Some software thing to let Macs use buttons apparently. One commenter said it hasn't been updated in a long time and recommended something called "SteerMouse":

http://www.versiontr...fo/macosx/27620

If you click on the picture of the menus partway down the page, it seems like it might let a person send almost anything to the computer (with my logitech, I set up a button to send the keyboard commands necessary to enlarge text in Firefox for example.

[smax013]

dabigkahuna said:

Problem with Office for the Mac is it doesn't handle the visual basic stuff I have in my existing documents. I haven't been able to find out of that Crossover Mac program will run those things or just limited to running the programs without those things. Might end up either just not using those things or might be what forces me to put Windows on the Mac (I hope not!).

Oh, I'm a retired teacher, but I still work a little part time at a local private school, thus my heavy usage of Excel especially for my rather complicated gradebook I made.

But then iWork does not Visual Basic either. And theoretically, Micro$oft has "seen the error of their ways" and will add Visual Basic support back in a future version of Office.



If you don't want to do that, then Crossover Mac should work. Office 2000 is listed as a "gold" application in terms of support ("silver" by their "advocates"...i.e. users). If Crossover does not work well, then either Boot Camp and/or Parallels/Fusion will certainly work...if you REALLY need to run Office with Visual Basic.



It is possible that some of the scripting that you have programmed in Visual Basic could be recreated in other ways depending on what it is that the scripting does. Granted, it would be "re-inventing the wheel" (i.e. having to do it again), but it would potentially mean not have to mess with ANYTHING Windoze related.



The point was that you can get Office for three computers for $130 and iWork for 5 computers of $80. Either should work well...assuming you can live without Visual Basic.

dabigkahuna said:

If I understand this correctly, the Time Capsule is exactly the same as the Airport Extreme $179 unit, but with the network hard drive (better quality HD?) which works with Time Machine.


For another$120, you get the 500 GB drive with Time Capsule.


Advantage: Less desk space than adding a separate drive. Better quality drive? Best bang for the buck? Set to work with Time Machine (is this ever an issue with other external drives?)


Disadvantage: Can't boot from it. So what happens if your internal drive messes up? And if Time Machine is making constant backups, if you got something defective or a virus is in the internal HD, wouldn't that just be copied to Time Capsule?

In short, yes...you understand correctly.



If you have a problem, you would boot from the "restore"/reinstall CD/DVD that came with the computer and reinstall the OS and then use Time Machine to reconnect to the Time Capsule and restore your "backup". Keep in mind that Time Machine kind does two "kinds" of back ups...it does an "overall" backup, but also does "versioning". The former can be thought of as your run of the mill "typical" type backup...backup everything. The latter means it backs up different versions of files and retains them. Time Machine by default is set to back up any changed files every hour. Thus, if you are working on let's say grade spreadsheet over a couple of days and you screw something up, you can "revert" to an older version...there will be multiple versions backed up and you can choose which one is best.



Time Machine can be a very valuable, powerful backup tool...but it does NOT do bootable backup clones. That is why I would suggest two parallel backup mentods...one is doing a Time Machine backup (whether to just a plain old external hard drive or to a Time Capsule, that you can decided separately) and the second is doing a full, bootable clone backup with the likes of SuperDuper. If you do a Time Machine backup, then Time Capsule has the advantage of being accessable wirelessly (or wired) over the network...in otherwords, you don't need to have an external hard drive hooked up to it all the time (thus, saving the use of a USB port).



As to viruses, yes, if a file is infected when it is backed up, then the backed up file will be infected. This is true of ANY backup method. The obvious key is to not backup infected files! ;) This is obviously easier to do when talking about a Mac as there are not a lot of viruses or malware for Macs as of yet.

dabigkahuna said:

Probably wouldn't have more than two or three (one after I get everything installed the way I want at first, then, later as I add more stuff, do it again. But once set, I would not want anything changing in it untless I specifically told it too.


Since you said you have to put a copy in a partition, that makes it seem that a different external drive would be better - divide it into three partitions (two for those basic clean backups and the rest for daily data changes and maybe some applications I don't put on the internal drive).


On the PC, I imagined ONLY backing up the partition containing the OS periodically like this and, if things got bad, put the ghost image most recent back in and then reinstalling the applications. A pain, but not taking nearly as much space - and probably able to put the images on DVD disks. I have the feeling with the mac with the single partition, I'd have to move the entire thing to the other HD which would be darn big and not able to put on a DVD setup.

You can certainly make multiple clones/images at different times of the system if it floats your boat. Not sure it makes sense other than to do a clone of everything installed (i.e. after all updates, applications installed, but no files copied over) that you put aside and then a second "active" "Smart" clone over EVERYTHING using SuperDuper's "Smart Clone" feature. But, you only really need to do the later if you combine it with a Time Machine backup. The Time Machine backup would largely be there to handle backup of files, but then you can update the Smart Clone when installing new applications or system patches.

dabigkahuna said:

So, with all that in mind, which approach (Airport Extreme vs Time Capsule) would you recommend and what is the best approach to making those clean copies I mentioned. Or am I being paranoid?


I didn't set this up on my present PC. I can go back and start over from the original disks, but with some of the updates since I bought it, I can't just use the original disks to make corrections except by starting from scratch before the service pack upgrades. I'd have to start over from scratch. I might do that once I have a new computer with everything I need on it, but I can't risk it now. Heck, I'm not even sure if I know where everything is now!

If you are inclinded to use Time Machine, then a Time Capsule can be useful with a laptop. If you do a desktop, then you will be more inclined to be willing to leave an external hard drive connected to it all the time (i.e. you are NOT going to move the computer). With a laptop, there are more possibilities that you might want to use the computer as a laptop (i.e. take it in front of the TV or into bed or to the kitchen table, etc)...and you could still maintain a connection to the Time Capsule for backup and general data storage even if wandering around the home with the laptop.



Ultimately, it is a choice only really you can make. You know how you work and live.

dabigkahuna said:

On the mac, I know some don't use software protection, but I think that may be an unnecessary risk. What do you use? Don't want to bog down my system and get those messages so much that says this or that is trying to do something and it is so hard to tell whether to approve or deny.

For anti-virus, I use Intego's VirusBarrier. And for a firewall, I use Intego's NetBarrier. Mac OS X has a fairly good built in firewall.

[dabigkahuna]

Yeah, but the iWork thing is something I thought I'd play with and see how much I could get out of it. I used to do that on PCs all the time, making things happen that most people said couldn't be done. I'm slow about it, but I've often succeeded. And it is a fun challenge.

But for some years, I simply already had what I needed an no motivation to find new solutions. With a Mac, it would be nice to do more on it, without microsoft if I can. Might just have to go without visual basic. The excel gradebook code just automates a few things and I can do without if necessary.

The Access project was pretty darn complicated, but what it was for, I no longer use now. Could change, but I'm thinking about Filemaker Pro and see what I can do with that. In short, I see it as being a "fun" challenge I've missed (I hope!). There is some geekiness to me!

iWork for 5 is $80??? I thought that was the single license and the 5 computers was $100.





I may get Office Mac. But if crossover does it, that's a pretty cheap alternative and it will run other stuff.
I guess it is probably best to go with Time Capsule to start. But tell me, is it possible to, after getting everything on the MB updated and the initial applications installed, to use that drive to ALSO create backup of all that which would not be "updated" as part of the time machine process (or superduper)? Or is that only possible on a separate, external HD? I know it wouldn't be bootable - I'd just want to be able to use it to replace what is on the internal drive if things got to be a problem like they are on my PC. Might never use it, but I kinda like having something like this.
And is Time Capsule just for backing up stuff, or can you put programs on it?
Oh, since you have worked with Macs so much, does the OS seem to bog down over time? My PC is something like 4.5 years old. All the updates are on it, but I've never stripped it down and started over. I'm tired of things seeming to hang-up from time to time and waiting until it let me do things again. I've read others talk about Windows needed to sometimes be reinstalled (another reason for the ghost image), but don't know about the Mac OS.

I guess the bootable clone is something I would add later - at least if I got time capsule. Just to keep the initial cost down! Then add another drive later.

Laptop or desktop, the computer isn't likely to move much! My whole apt is only about 525 sq ft! The is no kitchen table!


Any reason you use NetBarrier rather than the built in firewall?

[dabigkahuna]

Forgot to add:

I'm guesstimating that I'll get a mb in November. If I use the Apple credit card deal that lets you have 90 days without interest, that would mean I'd have my February retirement check before then. Not sure if I'll be spreading it out that way, but even if I just put it on my present card, I need to wait until Nov 6th so it won't come out until my December statement. I have the money - just trying to minimize the immediate impact!

I do wish they had Nahalem out, but apparently that won't happen until at least afte April 2009. Can't wait for new thnigs forever!