[rgreen4]

Item 3 - There are NO Ribbon menus in Vista. Those are in the applications and are there whether you run the application in Win2K, XP or Vista.

[RBDog]

There's a lot to like.

[RBDog]

Have worked with Windows back to v3.1 and find good/bad in each version. To all the whiners and babies out there wait until you actually use the newest one before commencing with the squalls. Windows has almost always attemted the near impossible, making an industry as varied as home computing work as well as possible. Considering the vast differences in software and hardware the job they do at Microsoft is to advance our experience with their product. The epitome of a successful company is to make the customer happy and continue to build on their success.

[rgreen4]

prevent1984 said:

It looks a lot like Vista to me. I don't want Microsoft to come up with a quick fix to their Vista problem. I want them to stop Vista, put XP back on the computers they are selling, and actually take the time they need to develop Windows 7. PC users are happy with XP, they'll be okay if Microsoft needs some more time to make an OS that actually works well.

It really doesn't matter though. I hope to make the transition to a Mac laptop and a Mac desktop over the next few years.

1. That horse is out of the barn. The XP kernel is no longer a viable foundatation for a new OS because of too many "back door" and bypass options that cause security problems. Everyone said they wanted more security and when MS delivered it, everyone screamed I didn't mean that secure. If you have actually used Vista on a competent machine, you would know that Vista does actually work well. Out of the several hundeds of millions of Vista users there are gripes from a few.
2. Enjoy your Mac and after you discover the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, you will be back. But, before you go, you might want to compare the options list on a Mac to the options list on your favorite machine. And don't forget when Mac went from OS9 to OS/X, they closed some of the same loopholes MS closed with Vista.

[GetReal]

Well RBDog you got most of that right---absolutely not all. For the apologists and "MS Forever" folks out there, your biggest overlook or overstatement was the comment about

"make customers happy"

1) Its obvious from this and hundreds of other threads, even produce sales, that MS is NOT making so many people happy, even business users.

followed closely by "advance our experience"

2) I disagree strongly---it is no business or concern of MS to advance my experience, that is and must always be entirely my choice! It should be MS concern to advance their business interests by providing what customers want, (offering choices) within the field of sales--not by force of near monopoly status (yes I am aware of Apple and Linux, but that doesn't modulate the effective "near" status) or an ego that "MS is always right."

Finally, I also have experienced "Windows" since v3.1 (even DOS since v 1.0) and past results fuels current discontent---this is also known as "when something always stinks it's then a strong probability that even "NEW" will also stink." Otherwise, good thoughts ffrom you.

GetReal

[rgreen4]

First - Microsoft doesn't think they know what's best for us, that comes out of Cupertino not Redmond. MS regularly conducts surveys about what people want in their products, and that is one of the things that caused some of the problems with Vista. Number one on the list was that they wanted greater security, and then when it was delivered they screamed "not that much".

One wonders though if you have been using DOS since 1.0 (neat trick by the way since it was only out a few months before 1.1 was released) and have found DOS and Windows so terrible through the years - Why are you are still using it?

The official topic of discussion in this thread is the article on a closer look at Windows 7. While the general discussion about all Windows is somewhat related, we do need to get back on target.

[hydroron]

{font:Times New Roman}{size:3}Pathetic is the only word that comes to mind. This is not an OS for a "computer", it's an OS for a toy. When are we going to go to an OS that does computing?{size}{font}

[GetReal]

Neat trick, no. Just buy an original IBM PC for $3000 the whole package, and DOS v1.0 was a necessity to make it work. I don't remember how long it was out but its floppy is confirmed as still in my possession. Also still have CP/M OS for that PC (the PC is long gone). I actually don't have much complaint with any version of MS DOS products, they were limited as to what could be done, comparing with other OS of the time, but they worked. It's windows where MS has given me pain.

I have tried Apple as substitute, both the model II and the original box Mac---they also worked, but as with everything Apple then, all the bits and pieces, especially software, was an unwarranted 50% more expensive than the any PC with either DOS or early Windows. Have also tried early versions of Linux, the "free" distros I used had such little documentation provided that I could never reliably get any programming tools to work as expected. Retired now so don't need the hassels & costs of more experiments.

Disagree with your statement about Cupertino and also about obtaining input from users, as have been employed with repairing and programming computers, and computer manufacturers for 31 years and have never seen this. So think if it actually happened then it must have been only you and select friends who had the opportunity.

Your point about the tread being Windows-7 is correct. Windows-7 will absolutely be a result of MS's experience with previous versions of the OS, then coupled with industry advances, a heavy dose of MS ego and equil to all, a very heavy dose of "we need to get the next BIG-NEW out ASAP to keep the billion$ rolling and anyway, who out there can do anything about or to us when we don't satisfy or we make mistakes. They can just eat it cause WE set the standards!" If you had taken the time to read my few earlier posts in this thread you might see the justification for my perceptions.

Anyway, PCWorld forums permit any person to express comments. These are mine. From your statements I tend to think you apparantly love MS products so much that I am actually glad to know I have found someone with an obvious perfect PC experience. :D But, the fact remains that an increasing number of users are unhappy with the default choices provided by MS and certainly their market dominance provide inadequate alternatives.

[rgreen4]

No OS does "computing", it simply is the basis on the computer to allow it to run programs, manage files and read and write to storage devices. That is why it is called an "Operating System" not a Computing System.

[TheBigOldDog]

Looks like Microsoft is just doubling-down on a bad bet. I can't say I am surprised. They are so disconnected from their customers that they simply don't understand why people despise Vista. Instead they're busy trying desperately to prove we are the problem, not them. As proof, look at that ridiculous "study" they did a few months back telling us people really loved Vista when they didn't know it was Vista! ROFLMAO! Can you imagine wasting time and money trying to convince your customers they are stupid?

[rgreen4]

The reason I questioned the DOS 1.0, was the simple fact that DOS 1.0 recognized 160K Single Sided drives and monochrome displays only. To get to $3,000 you probably had a color monitor, and two Double Sided 360K drives that required DOS 1.1.

As for the surveys, there are many, and anytime they put out a Beta version of a software, that is what they are doing. They did is with the Beta's of Vista and Office 2007, allowing anyone to order the DVD's and then the send back their opinions. They do this as software conferences as well. Microsoft has open Beta's and even the Alpha of Windows 7 was not heavily restricted, hence the reviews, discussions and YouTube videos we see, which generated the feedback.

When was the last time you saw Apple put out the Beta of their new OS to a large public review? Ubunit 8.10 was recently released, did you see anything about the general public being able to download the Beta and make comments?

No, I don't claim Windows is perfect, if it were they would need to do updates and patches. They do so publicly while others do on the QT.

As for alternatives to Windows, there are many. There have always been alternatives, and you mentioned two early ones, yet you chose DOS and then Windows. Did that mean you thought it was perfect? Apparently not, but you apparently thought it served your purpose better than CP/M and AppleII or you would not have used it. You and I and all the rest have made our choices over the last 25+ years and over that time the vast majority by far have chosen Microsoft Operating Systems over the rest. Now maybe that choice was directed to some extent by the fact that one was severely hardware limited in that to choose it you had to limit you hardware to their hardware. But, nonetheless, it is a choice.

For approximately two decades Linux has been touted as the Microsoft killer because it was so great and free, yet still their market share is very small. Apple has always been going to finally knock Microsoft off it's perch and send Windows to the dustbin of history, yet it has not seem to be able to do that. Many forget when Apple was on that perch and MS was the rowdy new kid on the block. How did they get there? I don't remember walking into a computer store and finding a MS rep in a black suit and sunglasses, threating to break my legs if I bought something else. Microsoft got there one sale at a time repeated billions of times. If it was so terrible, that would not have occurred. Terrible products can generally get a few sales initially, but then lose out. Case in point is the CP/M disc you have for an IBM PC.

Going back to the beginning of the IBM PC, you had to purchase the OS, and you had your choice of the established CP/M or the new untested PC-DOS. Both were command lines, one had an established user base, books on how to use it, yet lost out so fast that the battle was over in less than a year - why? When you answer that you will understand why the others have been unable to make a significant dent in MS's near monopoly. It is near, because of market penetration, but if someone ever comes up with a wide distributed better OS to do the job, then they will take over.

So far, no one has. Even the freebies can't compete with the MS OS that costs money - that should tell us something.

Up until the year 2000, I would not use a MS application, and finally threw in the towel, because everything else was being left behind. I used Lotus and Word Perfect, but it seemed like no one else was. I have had my love/hate relationship with DOS and earlier versions of Windows, but XP and Vista for me have been rock solid and stable. The last BSOD I have received was on a Win98SE machine, that was prone to it. It was a good day when I got through the day without one. My XP desktop still has it's original HD and is over 5 years old, and has never given me one. My Vista machines range in age from 1 year to 2 years old (an upgrade from XP MCE when it was 6 months old) and have never given me one. While I never got a BSOD from my 2 year old desktop when it was running XP MCE, it gave me troubles with the OS, and I upgraded via the free Vista upgrade, and it has been rock solid ever since. So yes, I am satisfied with both MS recent OS offerings.

[GetReal]

Another comment that needs some correction:



MS regularly conducts surveys about what people want in their products, and that is one of the things that caused some of the problems with Vista. Number one on the list was that they wanted greater security, and then when it was delivered they screamed "not that much".



Seems to me that people discussing "security" probably were doing so in the context of wanting MS to provided an OS that came "out-of-the-box" not needing 54 updates (my latest count with Xp) plus 3 service packs, just to get to a usefull level of protection. I am extremely skeptical that any single one of them envisioned "UAC" as the result---equally skeptical that any single one of them is happy with what MS provided for their request. The "not that much" should be restated as "not that irritating" or even "not that stupid." And yeah, I'm a (very reluctant) Vista user and this comment is credible!



Last, and not related to the above: Not everyone posting in this forum is a computer expert, so attacks on mis-use of terms is not productive or even interesting to read.

[ace1p]

Wow, all you people are already bashing this OS, and haven't even given it a chance? This is what is wrong with the world, You don't know the price yet. You don't know the compatibility yet. You don't know anything about this OS yet besides a couple pictures, I have windows Vista Ultimate X64bit and have never had any issues with this OS it runs as smooth as butter. And I had Windows XP pro when it first came out and there was the same issues that Vista had when it first came out. Patients is a virtue and the world has lost that in there memories some how. If you don't like it don't buy it, it is as simple as that. But don't bash something you don't even know about that is not right.

[Grouchy]

You didn't have to leave anything behind with Vista. All you had to do was right click the exe in the installation disk and choose "run as admin ". Everything has run for me with no issues at all.

[Grouchy]

Its time all you complainers just went away. No matter what MS does you will never be happy. Rather than complain about something you have had no experience with, go back to school and 1. learn to speak proper english, 2. learn to program so you can write the next dream OS. Other than that please shut up and not try to cram your negativity down our throats !

[ace1p]

I AGREE WITH YOU GROUCHY!!!!!!

[GetReal]

Unless the user is a child or somehow inferm, then yes we all made choices and need to live with them. That does not mean we had great options in what choice we made! Much of the time my choice in something computer related has been because of money restrictions and because of lack of hands-on experience (peer comments and advertising hype substituting). My early selection of MS products was because in all the other systems available the manufacturers pushed their own version of an OS. PC-DOS and CP/M were the only ones trying to span different hardware---this was VERY good.

I now say for your benefit that not only do I stay with MS software because of previous/existing equipment, but also because it is reliable now (because of the constant updates after release). Not so in the past---even you mentioned win-98 and the blue screen. I actually don't remember the last time Xp or Vista crashed on me---my complaints are around the CHOICES MS gives me by default (the secondary software installed that I don't want, need or use but that couses me serious problems, the near certain necessity that with each new OS I will need more computer hardware, will need to "waste" time finding legacy drivers attempting to minimise the hardware upgrading, will need considerable time to learn the OS (learn as in where the configuration settings are now as opposed to where they were in the previous OS---seeing no reason for that change, the requirement that I replace existing/useful programs because they now won't run, the necessity of cursing because the new OS seems to require extensive college training just to enable an in-home family network with older computers, the certainty that the software I write will not run under the new OS). All time and money wasters and all pointing me toward thinking that MS doesn't care about individual user needs AND that MS is trying to do way more than many people want from an OS!



Re: your post about PC-DOS v1, I started with a PC that had 2, SS floppy drives, max memory and a green monochrome monitor. That hardware a a very few software packages cracked $3000. CP/M and 360Kb floppies came later. Only moderately less than the price of some new automobiles at the time.

GetReal



MS = GIVE me the CHOICES because you REALLY don't know what every user wants!

[GetReal]

If you can only stand the positive view of information then stick with just the review---discussions will always contain differing opinions!



DUH!

[GetReal]

Hay, for all the "positive" contributors to this thread, lets do a little editorial forcasting of our own. Beyond even Windows-7:



Windows-8, Do everything previous windows versions did, just differently, but also burp the baby and change the cat's litter box.



Windows-9, Abandon touch screens, eye-ball trackers and other user input, just hard-wire the computer into the users brain.



Windows-10, The human brain is now obsolete, the computer is now sole viable substitute for a creature to lazy to think or do things on-their-own.



Nuff said!

[edburnett]

I take a stand at your comment about Macs costing three to four times as much as a PC! Face the facts, you only get what you pay for. Since 1994 I have run three macs 24/7/365, never had one virus problem, no special virus protection installed here. They all use the current OS! From my iMac G3, to my present iMac G5. What ever I plug in works, no hassle. I also have three Window PCs that are nothing but problems. They all use WINDOWS XP PRO. I still have problems installing a simple wireless network card even with the installation disk provided. I do not have the time to spend messing around with such a simple thing. For the fun of it, I plugged in a USB wireless network adapter designed for PC use. It worked just fine, no hassle. All I did was plug it in, nothing else. So, if you need to be cheap, go a head, it is your time that is worth a lot more than a few extra dollars spent to get what you should have had to begin with.