[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}A Mac user always try to run the price game.{quote}

It's funny how only the Mac user has provided any realistic comparisons to support his argument. Go ahead and keep parroting the anti-Apple FUD, though. It helps to make the Apple haters (collectively) look completely ignorant of the topic about which they preach. :-)

{quote}Another fact I said is in order to upgrade a mac it means buying a new mac.{quote}

Which was incorrect, further highlighting how much you actually know about Macs, and how many of your anti-Apple claims are simply baseless FUD.

{quote}And what you said about software is a fact. Which means price of ownership of a mac is way more expensive because what you don't spend on the physical system or the software you will spend trying to find it. Even at Apple store the only software you find is the 'I' stuff and Office for teh Mac. Guess what I can get all of those at Best Buy too. But you can't get Macs other stuff. So mucg for one stop shop. {quote}

Anyone who can find all the software for there computer in a single store, regardless of their chosen platform, doesn't use much software. Besides, in most cases, brick and mortar chains are significantly overpriced when it comes to consumer electronics, especially computer accessories.

{quote}Which means price of ownership of a mac is way more expensive because what you don't spend on the physical system or the software you will spend trying to find it.[quote}

Most Mac users are adept at utilizing an amazing software location tool called a search engine. A popular implementation of such a tool is Google. Check it out at google.com. It's cross platform, so it will even work with the notoriously incompatible Windows platform.

{quote}Las I check Best Buy doesn't sell any Linux software...because if they did...it wouldn't see.{quote}

That probably has nothing to do with Linux being free. I'm sure Best Buy generally likes to fill all of their shelves with free stuff, but they're biased against Linux.

Did you ever figure out what the most secure OS is? Perhaps you could try out Google researching that question.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}I don't even know why you bother calling it a failure when all that's required from the user is a system upgrade ?{quote}

If I can't get at least two major OS upgrades during the life of a computer, that platform is bloated. A major OS upgrade should not slow down a computer significantly. When an OS won't run quickly on brand new hardware, that OS is a dismal failure in terms of resource usage. An OS is supposed to run in the background, not the foreground.

Perhaps I'm just spoiled from being used to having more functionality, running *nix operating systems on much older hardware, than MS was able to deliver to their customers with Vista.

[waldojim]

ok, SO it looks as though the Mac tax cannot be proven on the Best they offer (well - since the difference is too great - apparently the Mac fan boys are crying foul...) so lets use the 15"

hmmm..... 2.53Ghz chip again (looks like the same 9400 mentioned earlier) same poky 320Gb harddrive (5400rpm :( ) 4GB ram dvd burner and a [rice tag of $2500....

and again an asus C2D 9400(that the same 2.53Ghz chip btw) 4Gb ram, 320GB harddrive (and I even made sure it was the same poky 5400 rpm for you) and oddly Blu-ray is a common feature for asus - $1449

Oh yeah - and they both run Nvidia 9600GTM graphics - this is as close a comparison as it gets. And ONCE AGAIN better than $1k cheaper!!!!!
and for the sake of doing so - I went to see what an alienware would cost - unfortunately - I could not do a direct comparison - very different graphics capabilities, and harddrive capabilities (9800MGT, and 7200rpm drives....in raid)

But HP let me build a DV5t on their site with the EXACT same specs - and it came out to $1404....... SO I think it is time to give up on the price front don't you?


Also - to the others here; about the software. Yes google is your friend - however, as with Windows, most Mac software is closed source buy me now crap. and Mac is based on the DRM philosophy. Truth be told, they are almost as bad as ol Bill Gates himself.
However, Linux is based around a kinda anti-DRM ideology, and thus 95% of anything you could ever want/need is available for free, with a mere google search between you and it. Not to say that Linux is flawless, as it has its short comings.... eg - Blu-ray, the one reason I still dual-boot.

And Mac guys - don't forget your roots, Apple did a good job bastardizing Free BSD (another Open Source *nix clone). You guys stripped the security, locked it to your hardware, and didn't even have the common courtesy give BSD a reach around while boinking it in the rear.

[TechieXP]

i know its been a while, but there was a version of Linux Redhat that was sold at Best Buy...and here is your proof http://www.redhat.co.../press_7-2.html

it was version 7.x...

so maybe you should use Google more often. Maybe Best Buy doesn't sell it now...but they once did.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Well lets see...if i get tired of Windows I can still use my same pc and install linux without needing any special software.{quote}

Any OS that can run on a generic x86 PC can be run on my Mac. The opposite cannot be said.

{quote}Steve raved for years how macs hardware was so superior to pc...or really?{quote}

In its day, the PPC was a great performing processor. The G4 Mac was the first consumer machine to exceed the 1 gigaflop per second barrier, requiring a revision of the government regulations regarding export of supercomputers. The G5 set its own records with Virginia Tech's PowerMac based supercomputers. Heck, Microsoft even chose the G5 for their XBox. Apple went with Intel because the G5 didn't have suitable mobile processors in its roadmap. When Intel was finally able to get on the right side of the performance per watt curve with their new (at the time) Core architecture, that made Intel the logical choice for Apple, since their notebook sales were growing rapidly. My guess is that Microsoft wouldn't have chosen the PPC for their console if it were not up to the task.

{quote}Firewire both appeared on a mac...how many devices does Apple have that make use of them? As far as I can tell its almost none.{quote}

Not surprisingly, you would be wrong with your "almost none" guess.

{quote}if Windows disappeared right now teh world would almost die as it would take years before Linux or Mac OS could be a viable sub.{quote}

The Mac is a computer. OS X is the operating system that it ships with. OS X and Linux are both more than viable replacements of Windows. Sure, Windows is better at gaming, but that doesn't affect businesses much.

{quote}Windows doesn't need to even advertise.{quote}

That is a luxury that Microsoft has due to not having any commercial competitors in the operating system market. That they actually have to advertise Vista without any commercial competitors in the market is very telling of the failure of Vista (excepting Vista's improved security compared to XP).

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Alienware has a latop I just price that cost $2800 putting it in teh same range as teh Air.{quote}

What you fail to grasp is that the Air is expensive due to its form factor, not it's feature set. If someone needs lots of features, then the Air is not the right machine for them. If they need the form factor without having a crippled netbook, then they can consider the Air, or a number of other similarly priced, similarly featured ultra portables by other manufacturers.

{quote}Alienware has a latop I just price that cost $2800 putting it in teh same range as teh Air.{quote}

I can haul more stuff in a Ford F150 than I can haul in a Ferrari, and the F150 is cheaper than the Ferrari, so the Ford must be a better deal, right? By your logic, it's completely irrelevant that the two vehicles are designed and built for totally different purposes.

Anyone who would consider the market for an Air to be remotely similar to the market for an Alienware does not understand the intended purpose of either machine. Alienware laptops are designed for gamers, while the MacBook Air is designed for frequent business travelers. If Alienware laptops are to be compared to Apple laptops, which you seem intent to do, it is most appropriate to compare them to the MacBook Pro.

I did go to Alienware.comconfigure an Alienware Area-51 m15x as closely to my own unibody MBP as possible, although it was impossible to get them exactly the same. The MacBook Pro has a 1066 MHz front side bus while the Alienware has an 800 MHz FSB. The MBP has 4 GiB of 1066 MHz DDR3 RAM, while the Alienware has 4 GiB 667 MHz DDR2 RAM. The Apple laptop has a high quality LED backlit display on the Alienware. My MacBook Pro has a newer Nvidia 9600M GT with 512 MB DDR3 VRAM and an Nvidia 9400M integrated graphics, compared to the Alienware's Nvidia 8600M GT w/ 256 MB VRAM and Intel integrated graphics. The MBP also has Bluetooth v.2.1 compared to the Alienware's v.2.0. Apple also ships all Macs with iLife '08, an equivalent of which Alienware does not offer. On the other hand, the Alienware has a built in 7 in 1 media card reader and an extra USB port. The Alienware also has a "smart bay" expansion slot. Overall, the MBP comes out slightly better as configured, though the two are as close as possible.

Prices? My MBP, as I configured it, lists for $2749 (although I actually paid less than $2200). The Alienware Area-51 m15x configured similarly lists for $2898. To the Alienware's price I'll add $70, the cost of the Canon printer I received free with the MBP (current, seemingly perpetual promotion), at the lowest price I could find on Amazon. The Alienware's total comes to $2968. In other words, even with slightly lower specs, the Alienware Area-51 m15x costs $219 more than a MacBook Pro.

Once again, a realistic price comparison shows an Apple notebook to be competitively priced when compared to a competitor's notebook with similar/equivalent hardware configuration. Any claims otherwise are nothing more than FUD.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}and again an asus ?{quote}

Once again, you leave off so many important specifications, the comparison is totally meaningless. The technically ignorant might believe that you've provided all the necessary information, but they're technically ignorant.

Feel free to provide links to these "equivalent" machines.

{quote}most Mac software is closed source buy me now crap. and Mac is based on the DRM philosophy.{quote}

Wrong again. Mac has a huge amount of open source software available, just like Linux. And Apple doesn't require a serial key or activation of even their OS. Let's not forget their push to have the music labels remove DRM from their iTunes offerings.

{quote}Not to say that Linux is flawless, as it has its short comings.... eg - Blu-ray, the one reason I still dual-boot.{quote}

If my laptop had 1080 lines of vertical resolution, I would want a Blu-Ray drive. Without resolution at least that high, a Blu-Ray player in my laptop is complete overkill, like an elevator in an outhouse.

{quote}Apple did a good job bastardizing Free BSD{quote}

Apparently not. Apple is actually a UNIX 03? certified OS. FreeBSD (and Linux) are just *nix OS's. But feel free to spread more FUD about a platform you obviously know little to nothing about.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Maybe Best Buy doesn't sell it now...but they once did.{quote}

Again, CentOS is free RedHat without the logos. RedHat with the logos is free if the user is willing to compile the source code. Best Buy may have made a poor business decision to try to sell what is essentially enterprise support to consumers, but since GNU/Linux is free, it would be a very tough sell. Any failure of such a marketing decision has nothing to do with RedHat's viability as a Windows replacement.

[waldojim]

Well, I would take the time to take apart your replies.... however: mine is quite simple, 1. OSX is a UNIX CLONE (actually a derivitive of Free BSD) and one with 2/3 of the security stripped out to make it simple for people. Not saying that it's more succeptable to attacks (than say a windows box anyhow) just that security is minimal at best. 2. Blu-ray (HD) at 14 and 15" looks damn good at 720p not to mention that even at 1680x1050 it STILL looks sharper than most TV's (HP uses an excellent panel btw) and yes I understand that this is a subjective statement - but the thing looks damned good. Not that it matters, this laptop also makes itself usefull as a VERY portable blu-ray player. Lots of people have HDTV. not many have Blu-Ray yet! ( Well not as many) 3. and you are right, no Serial numbers on OSX, but if you didn't pay the Mac Tax, you don't get to use it anyways (another example btw, of the bastardized BSD code. BSD runs on damn near anything). I guess Windows/Linux/BSD is inferior to Mac now because they designed themselvs an OS that is flexible enough to be used in a variety of situations? OH and of course you are trying to say that Apple is against DRM!? I like this one, as I used to tell people NOT to BUY IPOD because of the DRM. In order to USE your IPOD you MUST use ITUNES, you get no choices because we are Apple.

Funny - sounds like a drm mess to me.... glad I have an iRiver, something that (natively) supports fun things like open source audio codecs (ogg vorbis anyone?) and UMS (that meanse its treated like a flash drive).

again, keep your apple toys. Those of us with work to do, and better things to waste money on will keep using PC's (and for some of us Linux)

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}OSX is a UNIX CLONE{quote}

Incorrect. OS X is a certified UNIX 03? operating system. Linux is a UNIX? clone. You know what the GNU in GNU/Linux stands for, right? It's a recursive acronym: GNU's Not Unix.

{quote}Blu-ray (HD) at 14 and 15" looks damn good at 720p not to mention that even at 1680x1050 it STILL looks sharper than most TV's{quote}

I don't doubt that a bit. My experience with HD on my Mac has been similar. But I don't need a Blu-Ray drive to enjoy HD. And I would be reluctant to buy a BR disc that was only 720p.

{quote}but if you didn't pay the Mac Tax, you don't get to use it anyways {quote}

I'm still waiting to see some examples of this Apple tax. I hear about it all the time, but no one seems to be able to offer any examples. They all want to compare Macs to lesser equipped machines and then point out the Mac is a lot more expensive. Well, no st. Better hardware costs more money.

{quote}I guess Windows/Linux/BSD is inferior to Mac now because they designed themselvs an OS that is flexible enough to be used in a variety of situations?{quote}

I would agree with that statement with respect to Windows, except for gaming, but not about Linux or *BSD. Both of those are very powerful operating systems. Of course, anyone who thinks OS X is not flexible hasn't explored OS X. Of the four, Windows is the least flexible, without a close second.

{quote}I like this one, as I used to tell people NOT to BUY IPOD because of the DRM. In order to USE your IPOD you MUST use ITUNES, you get no choices because we are Apple.{quote}

Where did you get that idea? I've never had a song with DRM on any of my iPods, and I keep them filled to capacity. I can use any number of several lossy or non-lossy formats. I've never purchased any music from the iTunes store, because I refuse to buy my music in lossy format. I do use the iTunes application, not because I have to, but because I've yet to find a database program that works as well for my needs. I also import my music in AAC-VBR, but that's because it offers higher sound quality at a given bit rate than MP3. Of course, AAC isn't a proprietary Apple format, it's a format developed by Dolby and others that Apple uses in their store.

I can also use my iPods as flash drives without any issues.

{quote} Those of us with work to do, and better things to waste money on will keep using PC's{quote}

Ironically, I use Macs because I like to be able to work efficiently on the computer, something Windows doesn't allow me to do. And I like to get good value, something that Apple hardware provides. Like I said, my last Mac cost $10 per month for the 15 months I owned it. I can't get that kind of value from many manufacturers.

[TechieXP]

I don't care about product activation. First off...i look at it this way. Linux is free so no need for activation. Mac OS only run on one type of machine. If it could natively run on a PC it would become a hotter commodity and thus moe would want it. Even stealing it. Even at less then half the cost of Windows nobody really wants it much bec it locks you to one machine.

Windows Activation is MS's way of making ppl follow teh agreement they click and accept. The license permits one install one machine. If you just take it an install it on another machine you broke teh agreement. Sure I use to feel it was unfair if I have 3 machines in my house why can't I buy one copy and share it as long as I don't share it outsided teh house. Thats why the music industry is losing money bec ppl can simply copy a song and share it. If MS didn't force teh issue ppl would continue to pirate it. Even if MS dropped teh price to even match Mac OS it would still get pirated more then teh others.

I have no problem telling MS I bought your software legally. Its not liked I have never used a pirated copy of software before. What about Adobe, don't they too use activation? And so do many others. Why do you think they fix DVD's so that it is hard to copy or even pictures. Why make watermarks? Why does teh Fed fix money too prevent counterfeiting? To protect there interest. If you just make it easy for ppl to steal it, then how long to you think you would be in business? In your world not very long.

Sure activation is a pain in the ass...but unless you have no idea what you are doing, you shouldn't have to reinstall Windows often. I still have my original OEM copy and so far I have used it 2 times on a reinstall. I get up to 10 before I need to call MS. But I don't have a problem with that. Steve doesn't need it because he has nothing to protect. Mac OS isnt the most sought out software. Programs that offer a significant amount of abilities require activation. Like Adobe. Sure you can fine some that don't, but I see it as the serial on your software is the same on your tv, radio or the VID on your car. It says I bought this and it is mine and this is my proof. How else would they set you appart from ppl with teh same item. Or maybe by you logic, we can remove teh VID from all cars...that way when an accident happens and they give a make an model, we can just arrest everyone. If MS pushed it like they do with enterprise many Windows users would be in big trouble. I watched companies get closed down until they meet teh requires of the EULA. I know MS can be pushy, but why don't you as a person go out an spend millions of dollars to create something and see what stakes you go through to protect it. Especially if your product is one used my 90% of teh world.

Again I hear you and you can feel as you do...and you can ywist my analogies as you please. If Windows died teh world would come to a standstill until they can get what they need to make teh other 2 provide what Windows does. And fact is proof is it would cost more money on the enterprise level to have Mac OS or Linux do what Windows does now. The ppl who cpmplained about spend a couple extra 100.00 to get a system to run Vista properly, are teh same losers who spend 1000's killing themselves smoking drinking and doing drugs...and for the businesses who cried...well if they was trying to use systems from the late 80's and early 90's it would cost them so much to upgrade.

My boss use to use whitebox systems wich would have been cheaper to upgrade vs a branded system. But companies should where possible replace a system at least every 5 years or so. Unless your business does hardly any work and needs nothing more then email and internet access then sure a Windows 95 system is fine. The system I use at work was designed for Windows 98 and Windows NT. It barely runs Windows 2000. I installed XP on it and even with 512MB of ram an a 1Ghz CPU...it sucks. But we have a small office where I am now and upgrading wouldn't be as costly as a fortune 500 company and i understand teh expense. But stupid is as stupid does, and stupid wouldnt be stupid idf stupid would follow some simple common sense strategy. Imagine trying to drive a Model T in today's world. Yes its cool and yes it would be cheap...but other then for show it would be stupid. And you Ferrari vs F150...it depends on your need. My thing was you can spend less and still get more.

Thats teh reason Macs got burned in the first place. They were expensive and Pc's came out offering more for 1/2 teh cost. The same is almost true today. On an average you can save as much as $300 on a spec'd Pc vs Mac. Only is you need something more high end do prices get closer. But there is still some trade off. Portability means I can have teh desktop in my bag. A laptop like teh Ar is beautiful as long as you never need a CD/DVD. For a system that cost $2500 as you spin it...it cant have one builtin? as then as it is there is a way. They could have put a slot load one behind teh screen or innovate one that is underneath the keyboard...

If you want to buy into control by Steve go ahead. MS does it too on some level. But we have way more freedom here on this side and teh grass is still greener no matter how u try to spin it. Even if MS didn't push as hard as they did...they would still be ahead of Apple...bec Steve doesn't care about anything but himself. He is a selfish bitter man who lies and says it isn't aboiut what MS did...he bashes Windows/Bill whenever he can...in 2 decades he hasn't learned much.

MS only saved Apple bec teh DOJ was already on them about monopolizing teh market. Without Apple Windows would have gained sole ownership especially since Linux is no more then a geek toy. Window is where it is bec it provided a friendly interface that didnt cost you an arm an a leg to own. Apple will cost you that and then some.

Unless you business is based solely on music or graphic production which has been macs appeal since day one and children of course, Apple has nothing to offer. And Steve saying, well remember Office first appeared on a Mac. Ok...but why don't you see the business that makes the world go round using them. Mac-Write and Mac Draw were pretty cool...but Wordpad and MSPaint is way better. Better and cheaper. When I look at teh first mac and compare it to Windows 95...teh mac was a joke. Time has changed and they got so much better. Problem is it is a liitle to late.

Look at all markets...look at eth dimise of popular names...why you think Sega isn't here? why you think Sears is hanging by a thread? bec if you don't change with time you will become obsolete...which si what almost happen to Apple. It appears rgey ahve learned enough...in fact if they stopped focusing on Microsoft and trying to get even they could do much better.

We all know that Macs present OS is that OS steve made when he was At NeXT. It still the same...look how much a NEXT computer cost. And it still does less then Windows. Or as you say it teh only real use for Windows is gaming? Really? Well how many gamers you think work at these fortune 500 companies that don't use macs. There is a time for business and a time for play. Macs are just toys and all they advertaise is play. PC are about business as there is where tyeh money is..and we play to. And we play hard and we also play nice. We have teh software, be have teh hardware and we have everything...even in your world we exist. We don't need another OS. When you have one that does everything you need, what more could you want. Some markets dont need a lot of choice. Toyrus almost has it all. ChildWorld couldnt play and KBToys is a joke. When you have a company that provides it all no one else matters. Linux and Mac OS combine dont draw as many users compared to Windows. Bec we have it all. PERIOD.

But you are a smart guy and I like many of teh things you say as they are truth. Here is another truth. Windows runs teh world. One day someone else will get their chance. Live with it or live without.

[waldojim]

School yourself, quick fan boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOSX

http://kb.iu.edu/data/aghe.html

From http://www.apple.com...ology/unix.html

"What can the fully compliant UNIX technology in Leopard do? It can run any POSIX-compliant source code"

My OpenSUSE is Posix compliant as well btw.

and http://developer.app...urce/index.html <<<----here is the BSD code that it is based on. (btw, they even make a point of it being BSD here)

"If you like open source development, you'll love Mac OS X. This
fully-conformant UNIX operating system—built on Mach 3.0 and
FreeBSD 5—bundles over a hundred of the most popular Open Source
products."



Learn what it is your touting. Oh - ane we gave examples of the "tax" and in a debate - you don't just dismiss it... PROVE that I am wrong, find a MAC that at the EXACT same sepcs of an HP, DELL, ACER, or ASUS system, doesn't cost more? OH and one other thing.... the multiple nvidia cards that mac uses - is a gimick to try and reduce power consumption, not increase graphic support... as the 9400 and 9600 cannot run SLI together, only Hybrid Power. In otherwords, its useless.

[MarioJP]

I never throw away money on a mac. My cousin just bought a macbook pro for his art schooling. After trying it out for 30minutes or so. I will never buy a overpriced mac. Only time i will touch a mac is when it has issues but it will NEVER replace my pc. Sorry macs are not cool for me. Next!!

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}If Windows died teh world would come to a standstill until they can get what they need to make teh other 2 provide what Windows does.{quote}

Do you really think gaming is that important to the world? That's the only thing Windows provides that can't currently be done just as well by other operating systems.

{quote}The ppl who cpmplained about spend a couple extra 100.00 to get a system to run Vista properly, are teh same losers who spend 1000's killing themselves smoking drinking and doing drugs{quote}

Very good. You don't have any facts to support your incorrect assertions, so instead of admitting that you don't know what you're talking about, you accuse those who disagree with you of being drug addicts. Bravo.

{quote}On an average you can save as much as $300 on a spec'd Pc vs Mac.{quote}

Yet, the Alienware example you provided was more expensive than a Mac with even better specifications.

{quote}MS only saved Apple bec teh DOJ was already on them about monopolizing teh market.{quote}

Right. Are you seriously claiming that a $25 million investment in a company that had well over $1 billion in cash reserves was "saving" them? MS made a token investment as a symbolic sign that the two companies were beginning a new, cooperative relationship.

{quote}Windows runs teh world.{quote}

Yes. Microsoft's Windows is installed on ~89% of computers, but their share is decreasing. OS X and Linux both have consistently growing market shares. Apple has ~9%, which is pretty impressive for a company that doesn't even compete in the operating system market, allowing OS X only on Apple hardware despite interest from other manufacturers.

[Evildave]

Oh, and just to back up your numbers...
http://marketshare.h...t.aspx?qprid=9#

These numbers are cooked up by web sites reporting what your browser tells them about your PC to a central location, so the numbers jump a bit according to what sites get visited. Mac appears to have been growing by leaps and bounds. Linux is still working on its first 1%. Of course, given the tally of about a billion personal computers in the world, every percentage point is 10 million systems.

Oh, and BTW, Windoze doesn't 'run teh world'. Linux does. Most inexpensive home routers run an embedded flavor of Linux. Most web servers also run Linux. After all, who's going to be STUPID enough to pay for the license and deal with the insecurity and unreliability to run Windoze instead of LAMP? Quite a few idiots. Plenty of credulous, clueless dolts out there that are allergic to money, and who'll believe anything a Microsoft marketing liar says because they know absolutely nothing, and feel like they're being 'educated'.

Oh, and the next time you're part of a layoff to 'cut costs', take a moment to consider how much all of that licensed software and support costs the company every year on every PC in your company, tally it up, and perhaps understand the damage that paying Microsoft for 'upgrades' to fix their bugs and problems does while you clean your desk out.

Linux:
Initial Investment: FREE
Upgrades: FREE
Support: FREE Community
Individual Customization: FREE (or cheap) Free source, free tools, free libraries, free documentation.
Licensing: FREE+INIFINITE. Make copies for your friends. Install it on a thousand PCs if you want. Send it home with the kids.
Security: No real threats to speak of.

Windows:
Initial Investment: $50 (OEM bundled on PC) to thousands (server edition)
Upgrades: Buku Bucks to fix what they leave broken for several versions in a row, but always promise a fix for 'next version'. SUCKERS!
Support: Buku Bucks PER MINUTE to talk to someone who speaks 'Engrish' very slowly in Asia while they read a checklist at you.
Individual Customization: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, you can probably 'skin' it, but if you need a new feature, there may or may not be an API, and whatever you do with that API may or may not work in the next minor version update Microsoft makes. Microsoft will naturally charge extra for the development libraries, documentation, etc.
Licensing: All kinds of squirrelly agreements to run afoul of and get sued/fined over. From single-seat to educational to corporate, to corporate with monthly fees, etc. One big nasty, ugly minefield requiring 'specialists' to keep track of.
Security: According to Symantec, 2/3 of the software deployed and running on Windows PCs at any given moment is MALWARE. A million kinds to catch. Good thing you're '100% Compatible' with that!

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}School yourself, quick fan boy.{quote}

I think you'll find, from reading my posts, that I am very supportive of GNU/Linux, also, as well as BSD and Solaris/OpenSolaris. Granted, I think Windows is inferior to nix OS's in almost every respect except gaming, although I hope they can make sufficient improvements with Windows 7 to change that opinion. I like computers and like finding new uses for them, particularly as part of a network. I use OS X on my primary machine because Apple's laptops meet my needs best for the money (excepting the MacBook Air, the design of which doesn't provide any real benefit to me). Apple's nix OS is configured out of the box in a manner very similar to how I would configure Linux if I used it as the primary OS on my primary machine. It's more convenient to just use OS X. On the very rare occasions that it doesn't "just work" (an important characteristic of my primary machine), it's dead simple to troubleshoot.

{quote}Learn what it is your touting.{quote}

Perhaps you'll find the time to address what I wrote, if you feel what I wrote is incorrect. Yes, Linux is POSIX compliant. It's a Unix clone. Yes, Mac OS X is descended from BSD. I'm aware of all of these facts and haven't made contradictory claims. What I did claim is that OS X is a UNIX 03? certified operating system, not a clone. It is genuine UNIX?, a smaller subset of *nix operating systems. Are you disagreeing with that?

{quote}PROVE that I am wrong, find a MAC that at the EXACT same sepcs of an HP, DELL, ACER, or ASUS system, doesn't cost more?{quote}

I have offered several examples proving exactly that. Perhaps you missed the in depth article from Tom's Hardware. Last night I compared a Dell Alienware laptop configured as closely as possible to the MacBook Pro (albeit not quite as well as the MBP), and ended up being over $200 more expensive than the Mac. I'm still waiting for anyone to provide an example of a Mac being significantly more expensive than an equivalent machine from another manufacturer. I'm not claiming that Apple is always going to be the cheapest, although sometimes that is the case. No manufacturer is always the least expensive, all else equal. The persistent claim that Apples are always significantly more expensive, however, is false. Several years ago, that was the case, but today it is no longer true. I'm always amazed at how emotional Apple haters can get when confronted with the facts.

Just last night I recommended an HP to my sister. For her needs it offers the most bang for the buck. Configured for my needs, the bang for the buck simply isn't there. On the other hand, a MacBook Pro is far too much machine for her, and the MacBook doesn't offer a large enough screen, so Apple can't offer the value she's seeking. I have no doubt that that's the case for many people, just as I am confident that many informed consumers find the best value for their needs with Apple.

Different people have different needs. Fortunately, there are multiple companies to meet the needs of different people. No single company can meet everyones needs. For example, I can't configure an HP to be a near equivalent of my MacBook Pro. I can get a significantly lesser equipped laptop from HP for less (based on list prices) or a significantly better equipped HP laptop for more. Looking at a machine from each company, some consumers will see important features missing from the lesser equipped machine, while someone else can compare the same two laptop configurations and see extra costs incurred from unnecessary features.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Oh, and BTW, Windoze doesn't 'run teh world'. Linux does. Most inexpensive home routers run an embedded flavor of Linux. {quote}

That's a very good point about routers. Additionally, I think most pre-built (with or without drives) NAS solutions also run some form of Linux. I run OpenFiler on my NAS server, which is Linux.

[MarioJP]

Here we go again "Evildave" in his power to try to covince how awsome linux is. Does not matter even at a insane 1 percent of the marketshare lol.

By that time then the future is mobile devices. In fact I am typing this on my blackberry.


I been using windows as long as I can remember. As much as I want to go to linux, I just can't I don't want to give up my gaming especially. I been using vista sp1 and haven't had any bsod, in fact its been working great especially 64 bit version of vista

So don't hate me if you were expecting me to say "vista blows and ms is evil I'm going to linux" if that is what you are waiting? Well keep waiting lol.


MarioJP

[waldojim]

One quick note - and this is one that has been bothering me - as I see you say it a lot " I think Windows is inferior to *nix OS's in almost every respect except gaming"

Windows is not a superior gaming platform: the games are simply made for the common platform. My games have allways run better under Linux... when the manufacturer releases the game in linux (UT series/Doom 3/Quake3 for eg) and even certain bugs never affected my LInux box the way Windows was: WoW with Nvidia 8+9 series cards - horrible Framrates in Windows (8800GT-SLI 60fps or less) in windows VS 130-170fps linux.... That said - this is a fluke and should not have happened.

now back to the banter.

"What I did claim is that OS X is a UNIX 03® certified operating system, not a clone. It is genuine UNIX®, a smaller subset of *nix operating systems. Are you disagreeing with that?" OK, upon further review and searching - I did find that Mac OSX 10.5 on the Intel Platform (I think its interesting that the specified Intel platform here - meaning that any of the 10.5's on the G5 are not compliant) are granted the use of the name UNIX. SOOOO... as mentioned already - It is nice to see Apple get Posix complaince certified.

and you want to see a link to a machine that costs $750 less than a MBP 15"?

http://www.sagernote...ction=customize

Figure that up with a C2D 9400, and 4GB (yeah its even 1066)ram, and for $1750 I even STILL get a better video card (beautiful 9800M GTS).

It is eve n more embarrasing when you up the processor to a 9600 (and the MBP as well), the HDD to 320GB (7200) , now you are at a $830difference.

I chose Sager btw, because they are a specialized dealer, using mostly Asus notebooks for thier gamming rigs, and offer more flexibility than newegg (which is where I was doing my quick and dirty price grabs).... either way still a better machine for less.

I am not talking about $5 or $10 bucks either. $750 is an easy car payment, or two.

as to your Toms article - however wrote it, was a moron - Who the hell buys Vista Ultiamte (at full retail for that matter)? there is a quick $200 knocked of the price and the $230 Lian-li case - because only the BEST cases can be used here.... not like you could use an Antec 1200 and save $150 - well $300 cheaper now, from what that writer thinks. and he bought an add on Firewire card when the board already has one, though I do understand the purchase of the FW 800 card. it also appears that the mac is using integrated audio, while the author felt it necessary to purchase a sound blaster audigy (cant be for musical purpose - SB sucks for that)

Looks to me like the author was trying to make it look like they are the same price/performance ratio...

Sorry - whoever wrote that, was someone like you - biased toward mac. I Don't care about Windows, or Apple. I don't use either. I purchase Hardware, something that works well with Linux. I then throw out the garbage, and enjoy my Inexpensive, Quick, Reliable machines.

[waldojim]

dang it - I was going to leave it at the above post.... But I kept reading the wonderful Toms Hardware article you mentioned..... man is he stupid.
"The venerable X Window System is fully supported in Mac OS X by X11 (xterm)."

ok.... X Window System is X11. Xterm is a terminal emultor for X - how he jacked that one up.... dunno.


"it’s that OS X is OpenGL"


for those who understand what opengl is, and what os x consists of, I really don't need any further explanation of that line and whats wrong with it.


"Other powerful utilities that come with OS X are the Network Utility tool, RAID utility, Keychain Access, ColorSync Utility, Grab, ODBC Administrator, and Fromt Row."


Network utility.... Yeah, I don't remember the last version of windows w/o that.... Raid utility... 2 things here, 1. most raid devices come with thier own utility 2. Raid is pointless w/o the hardware (maybey linux has an advantage with with LVM?) ODBC - I know you windows guys have seen this over the past .... 10 years, yep that is special, good for you mac... proud of you incorporating all those 10-20 year old apps. oh and Front Row .... anyone use vista premium lately? how about Windows XP MCE? oh... so you already had that cool toy..... damn.


"Apple does a great job of tying everything together. From one device to
another, to online services, Apple builds its products to work with
each other from the start. However, don’t be confused. Microsoft would
have a far easier time to do this as well if its market share was lower
and it only had to support a small user base"


NO - MS would have done a great job if they thought they wouldn't get sued over it... everytime they try to integrate something, someone out there has to get pissy about it... (rember IE lawsuit)


I cannot belive you referenced this douchebag as your source of - "see mac isn't all that bad" They guy wrote a one sided story that you bought into because it fed you.



edit



for those of you who want to read that article for yourself, and get a good laugh (also check out the comments)

www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-mac-leopard-windows-vista,1985.html



edit

one other quick note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SingleUNIXSpecification

and you will see that while MANY BSD/Linux are compliant - they change versions too quickly to justify the COST of getting certified. I would say that paying to have every minor release (every 6 mo. or so) can get out of hand perty quick