[WinTard]

kenwilsonii said:

as long as the DOS program does not do anything to spectacular video wise.

and can you still print to LPT1? Most of the latest printers do not work under DOS.

Executive Summary:

The question raised is -- Can one still use LPT1 under Windows 7 from DOS (or more precisely the command line processor CMD)?

The simple answer is YES.

Detailed rationale, to be skipped immediately for those who don't care about the nitty-gritty details of how and why.

~~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer: Warning, detailed answer follows, please skip if of no interest to you. Please. Don't read, and then complain what is this. Nobody is forcing you to read.
~~~~~~~~~~

As a dinosaur wintarded Windows/Unix systems programmer, I can talk to LPT1 write bytes and even read bytes via the quickly disappearing parallel port DB-25 pin connector. As for most of the latest printers do not work under DOS, it depends on the application used. For instance, take the ubiquitous Notepad. You can invoke that from DOS. It can print, but it isn't a DOS program. So if some developer wants to develop a contemporary DOS only program, but entirely utilize the OS API to talk to the LPT1, be my guest. Similar issues exist under Unix. One can stream bytes out the printer port, but at what point is the page going to start printing, now that almost all, if not all printers nowadays are block devices, requiring a page of data at a time before they print something?

As a proof, nowadays, to do cross-platform microcontroller software design under Eclipse, you can use LPT1 at the parallel port level, it is used in things like OCdemon to do single-stepping and in-circuit-emulation ICE to ARM type RISC processors. That process is controlled via the 8-bit bi-directional parallel LPT1 port. Alas, none of Eclipse is pure DOS either, but works from the command line in CMD. So now we're talking much more sophisticated things than simply streaming bytes to a typical printer over LPT1...

Anyone interested in learning something new and interesting is encouraged to google the term 'Using Open Source Tools for AT91SAM7 Cross Development' : Results 1 - 10 of about 811 for Using Open Source Tools for AT91SAM7 Cross Development.

Here's the PDF.
http://www2.amontec....al-20061124.pdf
or if you want it in HTML
http://74.125.95.132...al-20061124.pdfUsingOpenSourceToolsforAT91SAM7CrossDevelopment&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

All this open-source development environment using Eclipse, Java, and the full suite of GNU tools including ICE and GCC compiler, yes all under Windows... I bet many didn't think Windows is a perfect development platform? Most anything available in FOSS is also available for Windows. In addition, don't understimate the powerful arsenal of Microsoft closed-source development tools like Visual Studio. Just check out http://msdn.microsoft.com for a peek.

Alas gone are the days of a full-screen of 25 lines x 80 characters. Spectacular in a full screen DOS single session? Like what? All you had access to was block characters. Color? Oh you mean FANSI.sys with blinking colors? Now all command line shells are virtualized into windows. Thankfully, also gone are the days of dot-matrix and Diablo 630 daisy-wheel printers. I cannot test your assertion at the moment, but could probably quickly write a simple program following the DOS/WIN API that would work but only for a specific printer, and specific I/O card.

Back in the DOS days, I used two beautiful programs:

1) 4PRINT which compressed onto standard HP LaserJet printers, four pages, onto one.
2) A nice cross-reference / indexer / pretty-printer for assembly and C programs from Aldebaran Laboratories. This utility generated a cross-reference of all variables, routines, subroutines, an index and pagination of your source-code. And it did it quick! All routines were indented (beautified) with braces delineating the structure of calls, subroutines, and the like. No we're not talking about CB only (C Beautifier). This worked for many programming languages, including assembler, basic, pascal and the like, even simple ASCII text.

And no they don't run under Windows 7 x64 beta 7000, sadly. But I haven't used these programs since Win98, which back then was merely a windowing GUI running on top of DOS... And neither did they run under Windows XP. Or Windows 2000 or NT 3.51 for that matter...

Thus I reiterate and I stand by my statement that I have not found a single well-behaved (API following) program that won't run under Windows 7 yet.

Now technically, the problem with DOS printing routines, (I know, I wrote the bi-directional drivers to make that Diablo 630 daisy-wheel printer more efficiently, {with less useless optimized head movement} than provided by the manufacturer) is back in these days was in the 1980's (almost 29 years ago!) each program talked to the hardware directly to the LPT1 .. LPTn ports directly to the parallel port chip, bypassing the DOS provided API. DOS itself, was going through the BIOS as it should, but in order to obtain finer granularity than could be provided by the BIOS, most software developers had to talk to the hardware directly, such as polling I/O ports, in a looping fashion, to detect the position of the print-head and stuff like that. And since they were already talking to the hardware directly, might as well perform the input output by yourself, by latching the byte to send out into a register, strobing the port, subsequently synchronizing with various quirky timing loops, polling the status register, and proceeding byte per byte. Stuff that in the days, couldn't be done within DOS itself. Because DOS depended on the individual manufacturer's BIOS (BASIC Input Output System) to talk to the hardware devices. There were just too many varieties and variances between them and no open-standards yet. And the BIOS just didn't implement such functions. The chicken and egg situation.

Yours was a loaded trick question, and inappropriate to the topic of this thread. All functionality for printing is there in today's versions of Windows, even over the Ethernet, wireless including Wi-Fi and others, USB, USB-2, IEEE-1394 (firewire) interfaces, Bluetooth, infrared, except for talking directly to an 8-bit parallel port chip. Functionality that DOS couldn't and never did in the first place. But that was reality since NT 3.51 came along eons ago. So don't ask for pointless, redundant and rhetorical questions. Unless your motive is to disrupt this discussion? Be careful about perception, you might be labeled a troller by the PCWorld Community members...

An ill-behaved program is anything that attempts to talk to the hardware directly, bypassing the operating system. Just can't do that nowadays and expect a deviant program from being compatible with a further release of any operating system. Thus the necessity to update drivers too. The root cause to archaic pure DOS programs inability to use recent printers is they (the DOS program) don't know how to talk to the newer printers, and has nothing to do with LPT1 .. LPTn access from DOS itself, via the DOS API provided as a subset of the WIN API, thus the backwards compatibility is there should anyone require it. As a further proof, I put it to you that using an old dot-matrix, or Diablo 630 printer, would still work with pure DOS programs under Windows 7. It is just the newer printers that don't work from DOS under any NT based Windows.

Also remember anyone can still boot DOS 3.3 natively should they need to. But why? As an alternative, with Windows 2008 Server and Hyper-V virtualization, booting DOS 3.3 would work I suppose since that level of virtualization allows hardware access in a virtual sandbox. However I cannot comment since I have not tried that specific scenario...

As a footnote, my apologies to the average PCWorld Community member, as we're not at Dr.Dobb's or a programmer oriented forums community I suppose; I just forget where I am, and perhaps the typical audience considers all of this mumbo-jumbo just useless nerd stuff, and maybe it is. But I suspect some might appreciate the discovery aspects and resulting understanding of the underlying issues. For those who can, please enjoy.

~~~~~~~~~~
Letting go of the past is necessary in order to move forward.
~ Annie Heese

All the carnal beauty of my wife is but skin deep.
~ Sir Thomas Overbury's, 1613

Everything has its beauty but not everyone sees it.
~ Confucius

[cystarkman]

So

SkateNY and WinTard

Regardless of who killed who.

Do you think another multi-release that fragments MS's ability to support, train, service and update its OS is not helping MS in either the bottom line or the quality of service it can provide.

And to be clear, I am not talking about consumer confusion and yes I am aware Windows 7 is sort of one OS with unlock-able levels.

And no I am not asking a question to compare MS with anything else. Just itself.

[kenwilsonii]

nice dissertation, we are talking about average users. Another poster was commenting on backwards compatability.

I was pointing out the flaws inherent in trying to run dos for the average user

[WinTard]

Succintly, I believe Windows 7 has the potential to finally become the most robust OS ever produced by Microsoft, and it is about time.

A contributing factor to all the confusion in the marketplace, is the myriad of hardware available, and inexperienced users, that are like a ball-and-chain to the ankle of Microsoft. The albatros of compatibility, and support of obsolete hardware/software.

I believe that as soon as 64-bit processors become ubiquitous as they already have, when people are ready to switch, simply because their older machines grow into obsolescence or are starting to give trouble, people will switch to 64-bit operating systems. Even for simple notebooks (they still need some form of OS to boot?). All recent CPU's are 64 bits, even if they try to hide that fact...

I also got ridiculed at work, when I claimed Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.2 x64 bit would load on my one year old Dell Latitude D830. So I did it, and ...

As an example, I still own a Dell Latitude D300, with a whooping 128MB RAM. Perfect for Win98. But try running XP (which I am) on that and the thing is completely fouled up, sluggish, due to the lack of RAM. Well it runs fine, without any anti-virus, which is unacceptable. So I investigate Kingston and they want over $400 for another 128MB RAM. Now consider the machine already has 2 SODIMM of 64M each, I would have to spend $800+ to upgrade this obsolete system simply for 256MB RAM??? When I can get for $20 4 GB PC2-6400 ? Or a HP laptop quad-core with 4GB for $800 with Vista (albeit 32-bit) at Best Buy?

A neighbor of mine, asked for assistance to upgrade the memory with three year old machines (incidentally going to VISTA). Same deal, it would cost more to upgrade the RDRAM in the existing machines, than buy brand new Core Duo systems with quadruple the memory, and instead of 20GB HDD, these things came with 500GB HDD Sata III. Vista License included, each system was $350 from tigerdirect... He bought three on the spot, the same day. Another buddy of mine, a dental surgeon, bought seven of those systems, five for his practice, and two for home... And this pattern goes on and on.

Thus on topic, I believe that a natural process of attrition will cause people to upgrade their hardware, but when the time comes, there won't be any XP or Vista available to purchase, all systems being preloaded with some form or another of Windows 7.

To those people, if they ask for my opinion, I would recommend the one and only x64 version of Windows 7, regardless of flavor. Thus reducing all this brouhaha, for new systems. Upgrades are another story. But I would not consider upgrading the software, without upgrading the hardware either. Both systems I mentioned didn't even have USB-2 ports...

And this article was irresponsible to start with. Five Different Versions. Mere journalistic sensationalism. But I will leave that one alone because it is 6:26 AM. (A palindrome)

As well have you heard of Moore's law?

But I digress so now you are witnessing the new and improved short-and-to-the-point Wintard now... Or if I let myself go, we could fill a book about the very topics I just brushed upon. :D

PS: As for who killed who, we both won! We survived intact and came out with better understanding, and mutual respect for each other. The only good deal is win-win. Isn't life grand?

~~~~~~~~~~
If you believe everything you read, better not read.
{Chinese Proverb}

Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
~ Abraham Lincoln, 1809-1865, 16th President of the United States

[WinTard]

I guess I missed that with a simple two liner. My bad. Now imagine how much confusion long winded posts like mine can cause...Sorry, I am a nerd, but wouldn't change it for the world.

Peace!

[SkateNY]

I think you answered your own question.



Anytime you need to splinter your resources for a single objective, the end product is going to suffer. One of Microsoft's biggest failings is that they do things by committee. Everyone gets input on the latest and greatest OS. Everyone tinkers with the OS. There's a desktop department, a security department, a task bar department, hardware software department...



They need to take a page from Apple. Hire someone competent. Better yet, hire someone brilliant. And don't only hire him, but allow him to be brilliant.

Let him tell everyone what to do, how to build the next best OS. And then leave him alone, except for the domineering CEO. If what he does sucks, then fire him, and then get someone better. That's how Jonathan Ive, Apple's world-class designer, who's won multiple awards -- including the Mac Book, iPod, iPhone, Mac Book Air and iMac -- thrives at Apple. He doesn't need a team of people to tell him what will sell, what will work, or what looks fantastic. The guy's barely 40 years old and, if he chose to, he'd never have to work another day in his life.



That's what you need to sell products that people care about instead of selling products that people are forced to use...people creating those products who also happen to love what they do, and who work for people who aren't afraid to let them do it. That is most definitely what does not go on at Microsoft. And the Zune is one of the most obvious examples of this. They could have, SHOULD HAVE, done much better than tossing out this failed and failing device at a time when there was so much marketshare to capture. I don't give a damn how much you love your Zune. Microsoft's best thinking produced the Zune. Not only is that embarassing, it's criminal in terms of what they owe to their investors.



At Microsoft, there is so much preoccupation with keeping your job that innovation is virtually impossible.



Problem is, this is how Microsoft learned to be successful and, now that they're struggling to regain their swagger, they're deploying a strategy that clearly does not work well for them anymore. They need a dictator. They need someone to tell people who are sucking up to management in the service of saving their jobs to shut up. They need to stop telling us that their next version of Windows will surpass all previous versions in terms of speed, security, and functionality. They need to deliver a product that grabs our attention instead of talking it.

[SkateNY]

You may have experienced your post as "long-winded," but it was also very thoughtful and on the mark.



You don't need to criticize yourself. That job is for me and other people like me. We're very capable.

[TechieXP]

Microsoft and many IT people recommend when choosing any new OS that installing fresh is always better than upgrading. This has been a fact with every Windows version. Since Vista has problems, or so it seems...why would you want to upgrade and bring the old into the new? Or how about this. If you haven't recently bought a new system, it is suggested that you purchase the system with the new OS on it. Many people who have an older XP based system will probably go that route...doesn't that mean it is a new install that they are needing to install their appz into.

For a person likw me who installs a huge assortment of application, it can be a pain as it is a full days fiasco. But I am willing to go through the process knowing when I am done I will have a good computing experience. For a person who mostly sufs and send email, the only extra appz they may need to install won't be many. Something they could accomplish in a couple hours or less.

Its only as big a deal as it is made to be.

[TechieXP]

i don't understand what is the issue of different types of 7. Aren't there different types of computers? If someone buys a netbook which is an underpowered computer but he wants the new OS...if MSFT didn't make one, they would be complaining about that...and we all know they will.

First off, why focus on the fact there is so many versions if only one applies to you. When you go to the at most you will need to only make 3 choices is that so hard? 2 versions will be directly available from OEM's only to pre-install. Enterprise can only me purchase by IT ppl...so that leave only 4. 2 will be widely available at retail outlets like best buy and the other 2 would be easily found by outlets that typically sell computer hardware. If a person can't make an educated decision from 2 versions then why do they need to be concerned about upgrading in the first place. they don't have to.

Again...many aspects of life have multiple choices and decisions to make. I don't see why this one is any harder to make.

[coastie65]

Actually, I am of a mind that it will probably be more in line with that of XP ( 3 Choices for the consumer ). It is not so much Computer related for the consumer, but the needs of the consumer. Using XP as an example, If your were just a "Casual" general user, then XP Home would be fine. If you were doing more financial and office related stuff then it would be XP Pro and if you were a big media buff, then it would be XP MCE. To quote. " Different strokes for different folks ". It really can never be a "One size fits all" type of thing, as it would undoubtably be a "Resource Hog" and totally unnecessary. Due to my usage, I prefer MCE. I added Microsoft Works, for the WP and some other functions, and now i feel as if i have what I need and it does well. coastie65

[PSComputerHelp]

PSComputerHelp's Opinion:

Windows XP Home/Pro & MCE 2005 all of which I own work perfectly fine without any glitches. As a system builder and having built well over 1000 systems with all versions of XP, knock on wood I have not had any problems.

I turn my nose up to Windows Vista & Windows 7. Their the sae operating system just a few minor upgrades in Windows 7. Woohoo, not a big deal.

Again my opinion... Windows XP works fine, I don't really need more then 4GB of RAM. 4GB of RAM works perfectly fine for what I use my computer for, although with having a multiple boot sequence I have to use Vista for other applications and more ram for processing more data.

Its like the saying goes:
"If it ain't broken don't fix it!"

Even though you have a limitation on RAM/memory for Windows XP it still works extremely well. For those who don't know how much RAM/memory XP can handle here are the facts below.

*Windows XP Home Edition (Exp to 4GB)
*Windows XP Pro (32-bit) (Exp to 4GB)
*Windows XP Pro (64-bit) (Exp to 32GB)
*Windows XP MCE 2005) (Exp to 4GB)

My System's configuration:
Boot #1: XP Pro (64-bit) 8GB RAM
Boot #2: Vista Ult (64-bit) 32GB RAM

AMD Quad-Core Phenom II X4 2.8GHz
8GB of DDR2 PC2-6400 (XP-Pro 64-bit)
32GB of DDR2 PC2-8500 (Vista 64-bit)
4TB of Hard Drive Space SATA2 10,000RPM
4x Blu-Ray Burner
22x DVD+/-RW Burner w/ Lightscribe
1GB GeForce Graphics Card

Everything from basic computing, to audio/video editing. But that's what I do.

After hearing that Microsoft will be pulling XP off the shelve, I find that to be a bunch of crap. Keep it on the shelve, not everyone in the Economic crunch can afford Windows Vista. We're all hurting.

You just want us all to have what you think is best. We have a say so too.

=)

All together I have not had any problems.

[WinTard]

Nice post!

Finally, a satisfied Windows XP user!

I too am a completely satisfied with Windows XP. And still running five systems @ home, and our entire company is standardized on XP-SP3 x86.

And we have virtually zero problems.Hey, it is mission critical!

How do you get 4MB, because in my experience, the best I get is 3.5GB (available) with 32-bit...?

But for 64-bit CPU's when the time is right, the next OS for us will be Windows 7 x64 and not Windows XP x64.

We've got this MOLP licensing with auto upgrades on everything to the latest everything, as long as we renew our licenses with MSFT. Very practical, and economical in volume. Anyway, all systems we lease come preloaded to our specifications with whatever flavor is in vogue at the time. So it's a no brainer for us.

But it would be a big deal to renegotiate all these arrangements with the hardware providers and Microsoft... Thus locking out stuff like Apple. Good or bad, I can't say, other than at the moment, it makes business sense and is the most efficient way to go. And with nine years of solid, rock-steady service. We've even got NBD onsite service, including all-care meaning someone accidentally spills a coffee into the motherboard, or drops and cracks the LCD, no big deal. It's covered for the duration of the 36 months lease. Basically foolproof. And fully tax deductible without any amortization & other chit like that.

Alas, we've got lots of klutz where I work... Oops! Bang! Sorry! And I've noticed a similar or worse pattern out there in the wild...

~~~~~~~~~~
A person's true wealth is the good he or she does in the world.
~ Mohammed

Simple wins!
~ Bayer

[coastie65]

I agree, that was a good post and well written. I think he may have mean't you could onstal up to 4 Gb in a 32 bit XP, although it would only use 3 - 3.5 Gb. 5 running systems at home ? Man, sometimes the one I have,is more than I want to deal with at times. :D I find myself a bit busier than I feel like being. coastie

[WinTard]

Hi coastie65!

I must confess, I am a true certifiably eccentric and geeky nerd. Always has, always will. Such is fate...

PS: please forgive my outburst yesterday, I am human after all. It wasn't personal, but I always follow my principles. Suddenly Spock or Data looks attractive... ;)

PPS: I've made the resolution to reply only once to spammers. That should keep things neat and orderly? They can do what they want. That is your problem. Believe me, I understand. Been there, done that... And I certainly wish all of you good moderators the best.

Cheers all!

[coastie65]

Hi Win, Nothing wrong with that. I never got further than basic programming. I was writing basic conversion programs for converting from S.A.E. to metric and such. It was fun, as it was mostly just setting up conditions and such ( You know, the old If then type of thing). You appear to really enjoy what you do, which is good. These days, I just prefer to deal with the hardware and leave the brain work to someone else. :D Outburst ? What outburst ? We mods are not as hard as we may seem. We have been accused of censorship and such , but that is not the case. I have had posts that are philosphically opposed to my own opinion, but that is fine, they are entitled to voice it. What we do look out for though, is there are times when this happens, and one person make think his view is the right viewpoint and no one had better say otherwise. Then things tend to get heated and we step in. There is a difference between "Heated" and "Lively". I personaly like a lively debate on something such as PS3 vs Xbox, which we have around here on a regular basis. You have already had a taste of the XP vs Vista debate that comes up on a regular basis and you have handled it quite well, in my opinion. This has tended to get heated in the past. Anyway, have a good one. coastie

[missgrace]

How could it be worse!

[jakejh]

i thing they should just sell one version the ultimate so whatever your needs are it's what you need and there's slight diferenc in interface to cause i was reding this guide about vista and i'm trying to do somthing and the instructions are totally diferent than the results the the interface is diferent

[SkateNY]

What Microsoft should do is do what they do best: sell enterprise software. They shouldn't be running around the globe gobbling potential competitors. They shouldn't embarrass themselves by trying to copy the iPod with a pitiable product like the Zune. They should stop trying to compete with Sony and other game console makers buy losing money on their Xbox. They should stop telling everyone that their next consumer OS is going to be the best thing since sliced bread.

Yes, I'm very much aware that there are many people who love each and everyone of these products. But what has this done for Microsoft's bottom line? What has it done for their prestige? What has it done for their market presence?

People have complained for years about Apple's so-called "closed system," "product secrecy," and an overabundance of "control." The thing is, it's worked for them.

In the year 2009, the biggest difference between Apple and Microsoft isn't market share, cash on hand (and check out THAT comparison between Apple and Microsoft), or market share. The biggest difference is that Apple continues to do what it does best in a competitive market, while Microsoft flails around, trying to gain ground on those who've already surpassed them.

Memo to Steve Ballmer: Just do what you do best.

[rgreen4]

Yeh, right. Apples model has done wonders for the company. They cycle up and down (don't forget that MS owns part of Apple) and MS does make more money than Apple.

[SkateNY]

Tell it to Microsoft stockholders.