[SkateNY]

finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL#chart2:symbol=aapl;range=5y;compare=msft;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined


Bottom line usually means nothing. In this case, it most certainly does.


Thanks for playing.

[SkateNY]

How does it feel to be on the (back) end of the stick?
Message was edited by: rgreen4 - word used that violates community standards. Do not use offensive language.

[rgreen4]

Actually the total bottom line is more important to a company than the earnings per share which you are fixated on. The estimate for Apple's net income for 2009 is $4.6 Billion, while the estimate for MS is $15.6 Billion. Another measure is the P/E ratio (Price/Earnings) which is the amount you would pay for a $1 worth of earnings. The higher it is the more expensive a stock is relative to the earning power of the company. The P/E ratio of Apple is 18 while that of MS is 9.8 which means not only do you over pay for Apple products, but Apple stock.
Another key indicator is the dividend per share. The Apple dividend per share is $0.00, so you get no income from your stock. Better hope it goes up, because only if you sell it for a profit will you gain anything. Microsoft's dividend per share is $0.49 or a return of 2.8% per year on your investment based on the dividend and stock price. The return on Apple is 0%. Even a 0.25% return on some checking accounts has a better return.

[TechieXP]

I like when the stock rabbit out of the hat trick appears. Obviously Apple is doing well but how well? The less stock a copany offers teh more it is worth...correct? It also eans less of a payout...correct? That one guy from IBM who hates MS is also an investor. His words were just because he doesn't like teh copany doesn't mean he can't make money off of them.

And what you mentioned about MSFT owning part of Apple. Wasn't that a one time 5 year deal? Or do you think MSFT held on to those non-voter stock?

I was also trying to do some math to figure out how things would be if there were less players in the game. For arguent I was thinking we drop all the OEM's who make PC's and just pick the one that is doing the best which is Dell. Lets say they limit their configs to just a few just like Apple. MSFT working with these limited configs would have hands on the hardware, just like Apple does. Not press play and see what the numbers will be.

Right now Dell is the largest seller of PC's in the USA. And lets make it a bit ore even. Lets just say teh configs and prices match Apple head to head. Which do you think would be teh dominate OS/PC then?

I still say to this day MSFT simply got lucky in a couple of ways. 1 they chose to simply market to a group outside of who Apple marketed too, and MSFT group was much bigger. And 2. when IBM license PC out to other outfits they didn't have a choice of an OS because Apple wouldn't let go so they had to choose SFT by default. Not because they wanted too. PC's were already selling like hotcakes.But it wasn't bec of teh OS. It was because it was lower cost alternative that offered more for the money.

As far as the versions of Windows 7...only 3 can be purchase by the public. Home, Pro and Ultimate. Home replaces teh Home Edition of XP. Pro replaces teh Pro Edition of XP and Ultimate has everything. Simple enough. A system that can run Home Premium can run Pro as well. But Pro is focused more on the business side with fancier networking features that a typical home user doesn't need. Ultimate has the combo of both and a bit extra. I don't find that confusing and you can judge which one is best for you very easily. If you have a portable and you plan to use it at work, then teh Pro is best. If its just for Home than Home. If you like building your PC for gaming or just want to have it all then you have Ultimate.

I seen a recording on Youtube of Steve raving about how OSX Leopard was all several editions rolled up into one. That is a concept MSFT should do as well. The scripts can detect hardware and know what features would be ok to run by default. Then they can simply create a screen that allows teh user to pick additional options based on needs...these could be either on the disk or online and teh installer could download them directly from MSFT...Like the Windows Live or Essentials.

They use to offer one for consumers and one for business, but after oving the consumer version over to NT they decide to increase them. I think it was a bad idea in many way. Not confusing...just not needed. It offers no true advantage to have 3 consumer versions. 2 would be sufficient.

[WinTard]

I am a bit annoyed that a Microsoft Windows 7 thread has turned into yet another Apple vs Microsoft, or Linux vs Microsoft. But such is life.

From my perspective, who cares if a company is doing well for itself. What matters is what they are doing for me. I would advise others to consider that thought.

No comments on Apple from me, or else, it will turn into yet another futile bash fest.

I say both Microsoft and Apple are great companies with great products. Where's the beef?

~~~~~~~~~~
Think much, talk little, write less.
{French Proverb}

[WinTard]

I agree with what you say TechieXP. I'd like to add my comments.

For me, versions are almost irrelevant. I always go for the top, the best.

When I buy a car, it better have the features I want, included. I don't believe in options. So I usually go for the 'package'. That's it, that's all. I see options as an insult to my intelligence, and a scam for suckers. I have a gift, an extremely sensitive BS detector. And never second-guess myself.

I must admit Microsoft went wrong, in downgrading their OS, to make it less expensive. That is the marketing and sales branch of Microsoft, which I don't appreciate. The Engineering first developed Windows, then went back, and stripped it down, on request of marketing... What a shame. And I like, respect, and applaud Microsoft's Engineering Team! Because I am first and foremost a technical person. I can recognize elegance when I see it.

Subscribing to MSDN and TechNet, you get developer versions an evaluation versions of basically anything and everything from Microsoft. From the entry-level, to the most extreme (except Windows Server Datacenter).

As far as I'm concerned it's Windows. I never went to the lower versions because you can't participate into an Active Directory Domain, only Workgroups. And the security policies are not adequate IMHO.

Bottom line for Windows 7: (at least for me, and I am IT)

@ home, it will be Windows 7 x64 Ultimate OEM version, since I build higher quality and performance machines than I can purchase from any manufacturer. Including Apple.

@ work, it will be Windows 7 x64 Enterprise for all new workstations, laptops and desktops that we refresh through attrition.

PC users can boot anything else so it is a non-issue. Simple enough? Are all the complications worth the $100 price difference? I don't think so. Not for something I'll get use of for the next 2~3 years, and as fundamental as an operating system. To all the pundits and their FUD's about blue screen of death, and random crashes three times a months: It's ALL LIES! I almost never see Windows crash. Period. And when it does, invariably, it is something the user did, or some malware. All easily preventable by sensible and diligent computer usage and hygiene.

Why Windows 7? Not to upgrade. Because we are migrating to 64-bit... (and I've been running Solaris 64-bit since 2001...) It's about time common PC's catches up!
http://www.sun.com/s.../faqs/64bit.xml

~~~~~~~~~~
There seems to be some perverse human characteristic that likes to make easy things difficult.
~ Warren Buffett

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.
~ Confucius

[TechieXP]

I agree. The market has already chosen what it felt works best...no matter what teh driving force is behind it. Money is obviously what is the turning point. MSFT has solidified very good partner who may not like them personally, but know their success deson't fall to far from the tree. If MSFt went out of business many of them would too, creating a new market.

I would compare that to what Lex Luthor tried to do in Superman the Movie. If an earthquake was to hit the western most parts of California, it would simply fall into the ocean taking pratically every resident with it. Everything else on teh eastern side is all undeveloped desert just waiting for developers to hope on the new frontier.

MSFT is that western California...and one day in the future a big earthquake is ging to hit them, and a new frontier will start to emerge. Question is who will be the leader of that new world. By that time Bill and Steve will most likely be long gone ot to old to matter. Silicon Valley is full of smart people who definitely can learn from what what done before them.

But we won't forget the impres the other left behind. They both played a key role in what we have now...and what they started will only evolve into what we have in the future.

[rgreen4]

{quote:title=TechieXP wrote:}{quote}
And what you mentioned about MSFT owning part of Apple. Wasn't that a one time 5 year deal? Or do you think MSFT held on to those non-voter stock?

Well here is a clip from a posting that had actually found a statement on the Apple SEC filing: (click to enlarge and sharpen)

In addition here is a link discussing the purchase, what is not clear is what happened to the 18.2 million shares of common stock that Microsoft converted the Preferred Stock into. While Preferred stock has no voting rights, dividends are declared as a percentage of the purchase price on the stock offering and must be paid before any common stock dividends are paid (thus the preferred label). They usually carry a conversion provision either to common stock or to bonds, but it is at the option of the holder of the preferred stock.
Bill Gates has been accused of many things in his career, but being stupid is not one of them. Besides, it was not Bill Gates money, it was Microsoft's money and that means it has to be accounted for to the stock holders. It may have been sold years ago, but maybe not. Neither MS nor Apple has talked much about it recently and since it would amount to two tenths of a percent of the outstanding shares of Apple, it need not be disclosed (over 10 percent must be).

{quote:title=TechieXP wrote:}{quote}
I still say to this day MSFT simply got lucky in a couple of ways. 1 they chose to simply market to a group outside of who Apple marketed too, and MSFT group was much bigger. And 2. when IBM license PC out to other outfits they didn't have a choice of an OS because Apple wouldn't let go so they had to choose SFT by default. Not because they wanted too. PC's were already selling like hotcakes.But it wasn't bec of teh OS. It was because it was lower cost alternative that offered more for the money.

Yes, in a way, Microsoft did get lucky. They were one of two companies that IBM was going to consult with about an operating system when they were developing the IBM 5150 (later marketed, and trade named the IBM PC). The first company was Digital Research which had the lion's share of the Micro Computer OS market by a long shot. (The small desktop machines were called Micro Computers until long after IBM gave up defending the trade name). When the IBM team arrived in San Francisco, the IBM execs were met by a group in jeans and sandals. The head of DR had decided that there was not real benefit to his being there so he was off somewhere else. Since the DR head was not there, the others would not sign the legal non-disclosure forms that IBM presented (after spending some time reading it) since they could not obligate the company.
So, IBM left DR without discussing anything. That was the luck part. They then flew to Seattle to talk to Microsoft whose main source of income at the time was MS Basic. Gates met them in a well dressed (not likely in a suit, though he could have in that time frame), signed the non-disclosure forms without reading them (he later explained that he knew he could not get the business if he did not, so why read them?) and signed the deal to provide a disc operating system for IBM which was called PC-DOS. He did not of course have one, but knew that Seattle Computing did, so quickly went down to them and bought their OS work and modified it for the IBM PC.
IBM never licensed their PC to anyone (with the possible exception of Compaq). In fact in the early 80's the major lawsuits in the computing world were by IBM against the makers of PC like Micro Computers with reverse engineered BIOS setups to run PC-DOS. Most ran MS-DOS which was similar but a little different. The big way to tell the difference was the two hidden file, IBMIO.sys and IBMDOS.sys. The MS-DOS version used IO.sys and MSDOS.sys and the true IBM-PC had a chip on board looking for the correct hidden files. If they weren't there the system would not boot. The Compaq Portable came with MS-DOS, but used IBMIO.sys and IBMDOS.sys so the Compaq version of MS-DOS would work in an IBM PC (we had both and could use either version in any machine in our office.
Until several years after the introduciton of the IBM-PC, there were more machines running CP/M and Apple DOS than MS-DOS and PC-DOS combined. In fact MS-DOS was one of several OS'es offered (CP/M being one of the others). The OS did not come with the machine but had to be purchased separately because of a previous court order related to their main frame business. I thing the prevelance of the IBM-PC in corporate offices being called PC's tended to blur the distinction between the IBM-PC and other Micro Computers to the point where they were all PC's. After the mid 80's, MS and the DOS versions held the upper hand and has never relinquished it, only made it stronger.

[TechieXP]

Now that was a bit I didn't know. I do remember back in 95 when I bought by first branded PC which was a Compaq, every PC I saw in the store was from them. That Presario 4850 I had was horrible with Windows 95. Everytime I got online an open IE, it would simply freeze. Then the ATI drivers would always fail soehow. Sometimes I would boot and the driver didn't even load. After replacing teh system 3 times I gave up. After that I built my first PC using a motherboard I bought from Tyan. And I used it all the way too 2006 before I upgraded.

I was aware of teh story behind DOS and where MS got that from...I was trying to figure out where the other OEM's came from. I assumed that since IBM couldn't keep up with the demand of building enough PC's, they sold it to other outfits who too design a PC and selling it...and Windows being teh only GUI based OS available to compoete against Apple they had to choose MSFT.

I remember using PC-DOS and Apple Pro-DOS and of course MS-DOS, but I didn't understand the differences. I found MS-DOS easier to grasp without schooling. And Apple Basic was easier than MS-Basic.

I also remember when Apple was worikning on an OS, they called several companies including MSFT for help. If Steve had been a bit ore open MSFT could have certaily help them make Mac OS better and there would have been no need for Windows.

As far as what happened in 97...i do remember one issue was Apple found QuickTime code in the WMP codebase. That started the talks. But I think Apple couldn't really afford a lengthy lawsuit as they were already running on fumes. Or they simply caught MSFT red-handed. However it played out, even though Apple got a lot of money, MSFT appears to have gotten the better end of the stick. They got to impleent their appz on another platform at a time when other developer basically had stop developing for Mac...and if MSFT according to what I read in the DOJ report had pulled Office...other developers would have thought thaty MSFT being a key player is no longer developing for them...why should we. Apple would have been good. MSFT would have had 100% of the market which means any late comers would have been zero.

Of course MSFT obviosuly had other intentions too especially trying to get teh DOJ off their backs.

I think for them to have continued success they obviously know how to make good business. I wasn't aware they made an investent in Comcast. Look where they are now. Look at MSNBC...look at GE. I think at this point MSFT needs to focus on making Windows better. They have to figure out how to protect themselves better against attacks. Forget about Norton, McAfee and others since they did buy a anti-virus compay...they should make there own and sell it...not bundle bec you know evereyone will bitch if they bundle. I do feel they have a right too. I don't think we should have to pay for anti-virus...i think MSFT should flip teh bill to protect us in using their software and then bundle it. That way it is still being pad for.

As far as different versions? Just like anything else in the world you hve to choose. No matter teh offerings only 1 will fit you. Just like looking for a mate, a car, a home, food, clothes...etc...they all come in so many offerings...If a man can find a women for hiself with millions of offerings i am sure a person can choose 1 version of an OS out of 3. As Winrad said...just buy teh Ultimate that way you have everything to begin with. But it is obvious everyone can't affoird it, since other version are there. If MSFT simply sold one, they could pic a mid-range price for ultimate and just be done with it. They will make plenty of money.

[rgreen4]

The reason everyone could make an IBM-PC knock off was that the only parts of the entire computer that was not off the shelf readily available parts were the case, the monitor and the BIOS. There were plenty of available monitors and other cases were readily available, but the BIOS was the problem. There was even one brand, Columbia I believe, went so far as to make a case that looked just the the IBM-PC case except it was a little wider.
Interesting - Apple Basic easier than MS Basic? I'm not sure, but I believe Apple Basic was written by MS. It was the MS Basic written for the Altiar 8800 that started the whole thing in 1975 (that was of course BA - Before Apple). Of couse Apple Basic was probably without the extensions of BasicA which had extensions. Interestingly enough the first level of Basic was built into the IBM PC via a chip on the motherboard, and the floppy had only the extensions. MS Basic was a little different and didn't have all the extensions of BasicA. If the chip failed you had two choices - 1) spend $800 (in 1984!) to replace the mobo or buy a copy of Compaq Basic which was identical to IBM Basic but was all on the floppy.
As for the different versions of Windows 7, it is my understanding that there will only be two versions on US store shelves - Home Premium and Professional. They are apparently resurrecting the Professional name (Business in Vista). Ultimate will only be an on line upgrade from those two. (Probably adding the Pro features to Home Premium and Media Center to Professional). Enterprise will of course only be available by site license, but in fact almost identical to Professional in most aspects. Starter will only be available to manufacturers of low power machines, and Home Basic will only be available overseas.
Everyone keeps saying there were only two versions of XP, but that is not true. I believe there were four, of course the generally available Home and Professional. The pre-installed only Media Center Edition (XP Pro with Media Center grafted on), and of course the Enterprise version only available via site license. The Enterprise edition is very very close to XP Pro.

[TechieXP]

Yea I am aware of teh other versions of XP...I typically count consumer versions as the ones you can walk into a store an purchase with buying a coputer. And yes MCE was just Pro with the added feature...same for Enterprise.

According to what I gathered when Steve and Bill was in that interview that you can see on YouTube, MS didn't work with Apple on earlier versions of Apple Basic. I think they worked with them on what appeared on the Mac. But I was born in 69 so I don't remember to much of teh stuff that happened in the 70's.

I still have a 4 of my original Apple ]['s (II, IIc, IIe and IIGS) and my old Imagewriter. I can't believe how much I paid for this stuff back then. And I thought teh banners I use to print that I made using characters (letters/numbers/symbols) was so cool. Look at where we are now.

You just took me dow memory lane...i was just lookinf on wikipedia and looking up Locksmith. Remember that program? And Disk Nibbler? These were softwares used to copy protected floppies (5 1/2)? I even have a Apple ROM for my PC so I can actually play some of my old Apple games on PC. My favorites were Conan, Pinball and Music Construction. Amazing! LOL.

[rgreen4]

Yeh, I used CopyIIPC to do most of mine. MS got fancy with the install diskettes for Windows 3.1, I think it was, it was not a standard format, so software nibblers would not work. Of course when Win95 came out on CD that pretty well ended that. MS didn't bet back into copy protection until XP with product activation. When I was playing with Windows 2000, a programmer from work loaned my the developers pack CD that had no product key. I played with it over the weekend and ordered an OEM install disc with a key so I would be legal. It's not that much money in that format. Some people spend $800 to $1000 on parts to build a machine and then try to skimp by without getting a legal OEM copy for $90 to $110 that runs for years? (Home or Home Premium).

[GetReal]

Computer Memory Lane!! My first computer was a custom made unit from a no-name startup in New Jersey using the 4004 cpu chip and 42 toggle switches on the front panel---followed soon after by an Altair 680 with more switches and Gates Basic (1976), PLUS, a cassette tape interface that had about a 50% chances of either saving or loading a program. Comments from all friends >>> What in the world are you going to do with a computer? Soon after that bought one of the first Apple II's on the market, so, Apple Basic was strickly an Apple/Woznek production at that time---no MS input. Eventually bought an Apple IIc, a Mac (hated that thing) and closed my apple association with an IIGS having 128 Kb memory and an IBM-PC plug-in card with 512 Kb memory and a 4 GB(?) PC partition on half of the HD (couldn't reliable even run Win-3.0) Wow! Everything of mine thereafter has been PC's of various manufacture. IBM was then suing copycats because of the BIOS for their PC, not hardware, finally a startup called Phoenix wrote a bios clone that worked and was developed under conditions that proved it was an original and not an IBM knock-off. IBM finally licensed manufacture of hardware clones to Compaq only after they came out with the 80286 version of their PC.

Here we are today.

[WinTard]

Hello GetReal, nice to see you. I pressed the wrong button, wanted to respond to PCWorld...
-----
Please allow me to contribute to a bit of history.

IBM in their technical manuals published the entire hardware schematics and source code to the BIOS (Basic Input Output System) for the IBM-PC, IBM-XT and IBM-AT. The only thing they didn't publish was the BASICA language located in ROMs, and that was the copyrighted part. A little bit still like Apple does... So the ROM's were copyrighted, but they didn't mind at all keeping 'trade secrets'. Trade secrets are for the birds. So is the DMCA the way it is used. This whole reverse-engineering controversy is silly. Just having the source-code and algorithms, doesn't mean one can 'crack the encryption' because the data part is distinct from the algorithm. That's security through obscurity, proven throughout history not to work. We're not dealing with Pepsi-Cola versus Coca-Cola formula here. Anyway, any chemist worth his salt, can decompose (reverse-engineer) that too if they so chose.

So not publishing the code to Windows is futile. And so is Apple's withholding of the GUI part of OS X as is preventing OS X from running on any ordinary PC.

I am almost certain someone out there just for the fun of it has virtualized OS X, hardware, BIOS and all, under Windows or Linux... Shhh! Can't say it too loud, or the DMCA is gonna get you...

IBM attempted to retain control of the new PC standard they 'invented'. By simply changing the bus. So cards wouldn't interface. Obviously, they lost that battle too.

And let's be real here. The only reason Apple is so much in the news, and prospering, is they finally adopted the Industry Standard PC Architecture and became a PC look-alike. And use the exact same parts, designs, like any other PC. Pretty it up. And sell at a premium price. Good for them.

Microsoft did in fact write the BASIC for Apple, and IBM. It was called GWBasic (Gee Whiz, or Gates, William).

Whenever a comparison is made, someone implying they are better than this or that, is IMHO the loser, the wannabe. For example look at Google. They're born leaders, and winners. From the first attempt.

And history also acknowledged that in 30 or so years since inception, Microsoft has become the world's largest software maker, has brought the PC to all households, and has produced more billionaires than any other company including all his close friends. Microsoft has made history since the beginning of the PC. That was Bill Gate's vision. A computer in every household.

Gates world's richest as recession shrinks billionaires
By Paola Messana Paola Messana ? Wed Mar 11, 6:33 pm ET

I never saw an ad from Microsoft, comparing themselves to Apple... I only hear noise from malcontents and wannabes about what's wrong with Microsoft. Whereas, I attempt to focus on what's good, everywhere.

Food for thought?

~~~~~~~~~
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
~ George Santayana

When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you.
~ Lao Tzu

[GetReal]

Tiny chance I am wrong here---being 66 years olde, hay. Saying that MS/Gates wrote Apple II basic is not the way I remember things. GWBasic was first released to run on CP/M and later for MSDos. I still have floppies with both versions (including CP/M for the PC) and don't remember that any part of Apple Basic was ever called GWBasic or even referenced MS in any way. And by the way, the GW in GWBasic refered to George Winters, Gates long-time friend and I think a partner when MS was first formed, a programing background identical to Gates, an MS drop-out because of health, he now runs a sports team in Seattle..

[WinTard]

Thank you for that bit of info. I simply ran GWBasic under MS-DOS and BASICA under PC-DOS... And the common knowledge was GW stood for Gee Whiz... With no other supporting facts in the manuals or elsewhere. If there was a contention between George Winters, and William Gates, I would as a software developer probably use my initials in any product, even though a friend of mine has the same. But who knows? Someone should ask Bill that question... The point is Bill Gates first creation was a BASIC interpreter.

Google:
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,010,000 for George Winters Basic. (0.17 seconds) and couldn't find anything in the first pages...
Results 1 - 10 of about 189,000 for GWBasic. (0.17 seconds) but nothing either...
Results 1 - 10 of about 135,000 for apple basic bill gates. (0.16 seconds)
>Apple Basic was written by Bill Gates
>3 posts - Last post: 1 Jun 2007
>Says Gates and Jobs! http://d5.allthingsd...er-part-1-of-7/
>forum.soft32.com/linux2/Apple-Basic-written-Bill-Gates-ftopict2783.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

And instead of being enemies, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs are mutually respecting each other... As evidenced by all the stuff they did together. Including:
Results 1 - 10 of about 553,000 for apple bailout by microsoft. (0.28 seconds)
>The Apple of Microsoft's Eye - New York Times
>Even in cyberspace it is odd for one company to bail out its only rival in a key area of business. Between them, Microsoft and Apple sell the operating ...
>http://query.nytimes...75BC0A961958260 - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

>Microsoft Made $18 Billion Off of AAPL
>21 Aug 2007 ... (This event is often inaccurately described as a ?bailout? of Apple by Microsoft. At the time Apple had a little over US$1 billion in cash ...
>http://uneasysilence.../2007/08/11933/ - 53k - Cached - Similar pages

Excerpt from http://query.nytimes...75BC0A961958260

The Apple of Microsoft's Eye
Published: Friday, August 8, 1997

Even in cyberspace, the moment can only be described as surreal. Two thousand Apple computer loyalists greet the return of their hero and Apple co-founder, Steven Jobs, at a Boston trade show, only to gasp as the looming picture of Apple's archenemy, Bill Gates of Microsoft, appears on a huge on-stage screen. It was Mr. Gates, after all, who copied Apple's visionary point-and-click system of computer commands, marketed it far more aggressively and successfully, and drove Apple to near-collapse.

Mr. Gates and Mr. Jobs announced that Microsoft would inject more than $150 million into Apple and take other steps to guarantee Apple's near-term survival. Some Apple zealots in the audience hooted. Others sighed in relief. Virtually all were surprised and confused. Even in cyberspace it is odd for one company to bail out its only rival in a key area of business. Between them, Microsoft and Apple sell the operating systems, which dictate how computers analyze and display information, that run virtually every personal computer.

Odd or not, the bailout is good for both. Apple users are assured that their beloved company gets desperately needed cash and that Microsoft will continue to supply them up-to-date word processing and other applications software. Many would-be Apple buyers had been turning away out of fear that as Apple's market share shriveled, so would the programs made available for use on Apple machines.

{snipped}

BTW, IMHO, that is when the decision to adopt the PC was made also. But Jobs had to keep that 'secret' for years, all the time, developing under both platforms, I heard it through the grapevine... How do you backtrack from all that was said??? To the one vision Apple Zealots with blinders on? So Jobs had to release the news gently, gradually, diplomatically. And here we are.

~~~~~~~~~~
The more you learn, the more you realize you didn't know. That's the downside of continuing your education. The benefits come next.
~ Unknown Source

[WinTard]

As well, I used the CopyIIPC with hardware board, that happened to be able to duplicate Apple floppies...

I find it retarded from a company to purchase perfectly excellent and functional floppy drives from Tandon and Shugart (founder of Seagate), and do a Wozniak on it, to replace all the read/write electronics, and pass it as it's better! BS FUD Lies! It only made them incompatibles to all other industry standard floppy drives... This really is what the Apple culture is. Limited by the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. But since they adopted a real standard, it appears they've been doing well financially.

Something that a $100 dollar PC program and interface card (with a NEC chip) fixed very well thank you. As I say, obfuscation, trade secrets are futile. Nothing remains secret for long. No such thing as an 'advantage'... Yet Apple floppy drives couldn't do PC...

Apple finally joined the PC community after 33 years. Better late than never.

~~~~~~~~~~
Where there are no tigers, a wildcat is very self-important.
{Korean Proverb}

Virtue never dwells alone; it always has neighbors.
{Chinese Proverb}

None of us is a smart as all of us.
~ Phil Condit

One hand alone cannot clap, it takes two to quarrel.
{Chinese Proverb}

Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.
~ Helen Keller, 1880-1968, American Blind/Deaf Author and Lecturer

You can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room.
~ Dr Seuss

No tool is more beneficial than intelligence. No enemy is more harmful than ignorance.
~ Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Harithi al-Baghdadi al-Mufid

Our enemies teach us life's most valuable lessons.
{Chinese Proverb}

[GetReal]

Yes, Gates first commercial effort was a Basic interpretor for the Altair 8800 and 680 model computers. It is alleged that pre-college days he worked at/with a friend/teacher involving "Digital Equipment" PDP series computers at a regional sales office. Both Gates and Winters helped install software and configure same, by various programming thingies >>> aka, their introduction to computer programming. As previously posted, when I bought my Altair 680 it did not come with any software. It was necessary to increase the default memory from ONE Kb size, buy the cassteete interface and then buy Altair Basic (aka, Gates Basic) on a cassette. In the package was a letter, effectively a rant from Gates, stating forcefully that the software was copyright, that he did not appreciate users passing free copies around "like candy" and intended to prosicute anyone found guilty of same. I kept that letter for years but now don't know whatever happened to it.
(please ignore any spelling errors >>> entirely the computers fault!!!!! ;-)



Since that time I have had a prespective on programming AND Gate$. During these events I read an article stating that at sales of Altair Corp., Gates returned to home near Seattle driving some expensive new sports car and with a CD ($$$) of $250,000. All this from one program, initially written for the Altair 8080 CPU and later modified for the Altair 6800 cpu.



Anyway---off topic, apologies to all!

[WinTard]

I corroborate your words, and remember reading that letter from Bill... LOL!

Please forgive me, I know you've seen it. But for those who have not, this is funny and appropriate to this Apple vs Microsoft futile conflict:

Both are part of mathematics... And the world wouldn't be the same without Microsoft or Apple. And Iike the world as it is! Instead of bitching, I am inspired by Toyota's mission: Make Things Better

~~~~~~~~~~
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
~ St. Francis of Assisi

Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do.
~ Dale Carnegie

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.
~ Plato
Message was edited by: WinTard

It just struck me at the moment the probable reason for GWBasic, is Gates Winters Basic!

[rgreen4]

Yes, the announcment and SEC filing plainly indicate that MS bought the stock, and then later converted the stock, but then once it fell into the pool of almost 891 million shares they became just another "minor" stockholder and no further reporting is done. After all, under law only holder of more than 10% (89 million shares) would have to be revealed. BTW - MS has 8.9 Billion shares outstanding.