[MarioJP]

[quote name='WinTard']
> [quote name='Evildave']
> >

WinTard said:

> > > G'dayAnother live one!What a load of bull from a one post wonder! Who's going to take seriously? You don't even use Windows and it shows. So you claim verified... Verified by whom? By you? Oh by your IT guys? Yes I see great competence... All these facts on your simple good word? You're just spreading FUD. You are a Troll.
> >
> > You bashing fanboys crack me up.
> >
> > Streuth!
> Wow, what an unwelcoming comment for that noob.
>
> Spreading 'FUD' about Micro$oft? The KING of FUD attacks who stole the crown from IBM?I somehow sensed you would bite onto this one too... And spin it up. LOL! Don't worry, I learn fast. I take pleasure in detecting patterns... Since your are Evildave, I wouldn't put it past you do be idaspud's alter ego, in light of the similar prose, style, avatar and timing... You got to admit it, coincidental eh? Hey, I'm not saying you did. I'm just saying it is a possibility... Thank you Evildave for the crowning title you bestow upon me, KING of FUD and for labeling me a villain. However I'll leave that opinion to the members of PCWorld, to discern who is spewing useless and mean-spirited FUD, and who is attempting to redress a wrong, when BS is being spewed out indiscriminately by iAMZzzz... And while I respect your opinion and perspective, I couldn't care less what you think of mine.

Well for the record, not for you Evildave (or that idaspud troller), but for the greater good of our community, here is my perspective of the event:

> > 1 posts since Feb 16, 2009
> >
> > idaspud wrote:
> > Oh please, our systems were updated the minute the patch came out. That stopped NOTHING. Some moron went somewhere or clicked on an attachment and infected the system with Conficker ANYWAY. It was executed internally, which has been verified. The antivirus program was up to date, but didn't catch it. A LATER definition update was able to catch a lot of it AFTER the fact, but the virus/worm, is still alive and well and the damage is done. This one is very tough to clean up after the fact. Our IT guys are going crazy tracking it down. This is NOT an unusual story with windows, so please stop with this "if you would have patched the system" bit. It still DOESN'T work!! If a virus gets executed from within windows, you still have a problem if the AV guys haven't caught up with it yet. Just frigging admit Windows is, and unless changes are made, will always be, a risk to use. You fan boyz and girlz just crack me up with your excises, FUD, and generally shifting blame.
> >
> > Now for the people with delicate feelings... Get a frigging life! Even if this WASN'T a blog, Who cares? The humor is totally warranted where Windows is concerned. I have no problem with humor aimed at Apple, Linux, or any operating system really. If they can't get it right, they DESERVE some heat, just as the government deserves the heat they get. Poor wittle babes... If you can't take the heat, get out of the fire and STFU!
> >
> > G'dayAnother live one!
>
> What a load of bull from a one post wonder! Who's going to take seriously? You don't even use Windows and it shows. So you claim verified... Verified by whom? By you? Oh by your IT guys? Yes I see great competence... All these facts on your simple good word? You're just spreading FUD. You are a Troll.
>
> You bashing fanboys crack me up.
>
> Streuth!I am endowed with the uncanny ability to sense bad faith when I encounter it; In addition my BS detector is extremely sensitive and discerning, it is a gift...

> idaspud wrote:
> Oh please, our systems were updated the minute the patch came out. That stopped NOTHING.Technically and otherwise, that is pure nonsense. That is just not how the conficker/downadup works. He's claiming that MS08-067 stopped nothing. Lie #1.

> idaspud wrote:
> Some moron went somewhere or clicked on an attachment and infected the system with Conficker ANYWAY.
You don't get conficker by visiting somewhere or clicking on an attachment... Lie #2

> idaspud wrote:
> It was executed internally, which has been verified.
Yeah, he probably did it himself purposely on an unpatched system, and introduced the worm into his own organization on purpose and in bad faith. And I wouldn't put these kinds of actions beyond any fanatical and moronic iAMZ... Anyway to me this is... Lie #3

> idaspud wrote:
> The antivirus program was up to date, but didn't catch it.
Says who? It's easy to make gratuitous statements. Lie #4

> idaspud wrote:
> A LATER definition update was able to catch a lot of it AFTER the fact,
More of the same BS. Lie #5

> idaspud wrote:
> but the virus/worm, is still alive and well and the damage is done.
Wrong conclusion, this was most probably purposefully done on an unpatched system, without properly updated anti-virus (or none). Lie #6 And conficker/downadup is a non issue, with everyone I work or socialize with. And in the entire population of collection of my peers, colleagues and friends, not a single person has encountered any single specimen of the worm, and most probably if they did, it got zapped before they even knew it. So where are we for idaspud's lies? Ah Lie #6.

> idaspud wrote:
> This one is very tough to clean up after the fact.
Another load of bull. Does anyone start to see a pattern here? The fix is so simple and free. Run MSRT the Malicious Software Removal Tool provided by Microsoft. That's in case you run no antivirus. But most antivirus programs will also fix it automatically for you, it is after all their reason for being... Lie #7

> idaspud wrote:
> Our IT guys are going crazy tracking it down.
This is laughable! None of my counterparts, in my organization, or through professional association even encountered the infection! Lie #8

> idaspud wrote:
> This is NOT an unusual story with windows, so please stop with this "if you would have patched the system" bit. It still DOESN'T work!!
Ah, now comes the FUD... Generic talk, bla bla bla, pure inane BS. And it applies to all unpatched operating systems. PERIOD. Lie #9

> idaspud wrote:
> If a virus gets executed from within windows, you still have a problem if the AV guys haven't caught up with it yet.
Yes if you use admin rights. The exact same behavior applies to OS X, Linux, BSD, Unix, you name it. Where did the first rootkit appear anyway? (Hint: Unix, thus the term rootkit). So more FUD (Fear Uncertainty Deceit). Oh no AV on OS X? Poor bastards! Lie #10

> idaspud wrote:
> Just frigging admit Windows is, and unless changes are made, will always be, a risk to use.
Admit what? Where did that FUD come from? That applies to all! More stupid BS disguised as a revelation! Lie #11

> idaspud wrote:
> You fan boyz and girlz just crack me up with your excises, FUD, and generally shifting blame.
Look who's talking. Well rats know the way of rats. More FUD in disguise. That deceptive technique is called a red herring. Now this is bashing #1

> idaspud wrote:
> Now for the people with delicate feelings... Get a frigging life! Even if this WASN'T a blog, Who cares? The humor is totally warranted where Windows is concerned. I have no problem with humor aimed at Apple, Linux, or any operating system really. If they can't get it right, they DESERVE some heat, just as the government deserves the heat they get. Poor wittle babes... If you can't take the heat, get out of the fire and STFU!
>
> G'day
Five more insults... Nice first post eh? Contributes a lot. Very positive... Five more bashings towards the community.

So as a nice first post, we get 11 lies and 6 bashings in two paragraphs. Wow!

Really, this is the kind of decent contributing members of the community PCWorld wants or needs... Tell me more please.

~~~~~~~~~~
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
~ Winston Churchill

True courage is not the brutal force of vulgar heroes, but the firm resolve of virtue and reason.
~ Alfred North Whitehead

Virtue never dwells alone; it always has neighbors.
{Chinese Proverb}

Virtue travels uphill, vice travels downhill.
{Chinese Proverb}

All virtue is summed up in dealing justly.
~ Aristotle

:)

LOL!!!

[Evildave]

TechieXP said:

Lets be fair and lets see if we can give Evildave a shot.

How kind. :)

Quote

It is obvious that your knowledge of Linux exceeds my own. I have however played with Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake, Ubuntu, Fedora and Centros. That way you don't think I am making things up. Out of all 100+ cofusing distros that are free we don't even know who makes most of them..and none offer any technical support. If the help file and forums can't help you...NO ONE CAN. I managed to teach myself how to work with all desktop versions of Windows and ever NT, 200, 2003, Server versions and can even perform complicated installs including Active Directory, Exchange, IIS, Windows Media Server and even S SQL...all without using nothing more then help and Microsoft's website...try that with any distro of Linux.

Actually GOOGLE works perfectly for Linux support. Ubuntu questions are nearly 100% answered by web searches. And they DO answer on their forum. To be FAIR, nearly 100% of Microsoft Windoze questions can be answered that way, too.

So now you've learned something new. Congratulations!

Quote

Windows and OSX are developed by names we all know so where...name some of Linux...well we know Sun and there may be a few others...however we also out of most of them they all have skill developing software...how an OS is not one of them. If you ask anyone one who uses a computer a product made by Sun Microsystems...most will say Java. Not Linux. One company I do know that makes an OS is Solaris...i've never used or seen it in action...but it is designed for a specific task...thus it is strong only in a niche market. So it shouldn't be compared to Windows.

Not only do we have a name, we have a picture of Linux.
http://en.wikipedia..../Linus_Torvalds

There are other Linux 'celebrities', but while I can look up everyone who is in charge of Linux, down to their street addresses and preferences of cake versus pie, Windoze and OSX are programmed by many anonymous people you never heard of, who (at least on the Micro$uck side) are nameless and interchangeable cogs in a corporate machine. Dozens of people actually doing the work at any given time.

We have the IEEE POSIX standards for UNIX-like operating systems developed over the decades, which are the marching orders by which SUN, IBM, etc. march. IBM stands behind Linux as well. INTERNATIONAL Standards committees that Microsoft is only lately participating in because they thought they owned the world are behind Linux. A cast of thousands.

Quote

Now lets talk about businesses that use a lot of proprietory appz. Even a small company. The company I work for now has 25 ppl inclusing the 3 owners. One of the owners married the other from a business somewhere else. In that business my boss was there IT guy. He built there business around Lotus Notes. Now he has a new business and soe of the other business migrated over..and he still uses Lotus Notes. Notes is much more then a email cleint...most remember CC Mail...Notes allows you to create and design databases that even go beyond what can be done with SQL...and it only runs and works on a Domino Server. Now as old as Apple and Linux?unix is...there is still no Notes version for either. If IBM isn't taking them 2 seriously why should any1 else. Again we are looking at big names in computing...not the same guys. Not that they dont matter...its takes tie to become big. MSFT was a smae guy too...however it only took 10 years for them to become what they are today..

Remember what I said about google?

http://www.google.com/search?q=LotusnotesLinux

Hey, looky! You CAN run the Lotus domino server and client under Linux SINCE 2006.
http://www-03.ibm.co...lease/19940.wss

You were able to run it under WINE before that (and STILL CAN).

And why 'remember' CC:Mail. Nobody ever never stops supporting free open source software that has a user base, like commercial houses do. If you had fallen in love with one of the many open source email solutions available, you'd still be using it now, because they'd still be supporting it. Of course, it wouldn't cost anything per-seat, or for the server, either.

Quote

A business that has maybe 500 employees...how does he simply make the leap to Linux? They can't in many cases...It will be very expensive to make a platform leap...if busiesses are fiding teh leap from one version of Windows to be a huge task...then leaping to Linux is almost impossible. A small business...sure...maybe..but again it depends on what they do. Name me a Linux variant that works exactly like Notes that is free...and the capabilities must be equal or better.

Not free, but if they don't use notes, it's available from IBM, and they will HELP YOU MIGRATE.
http://www-03.ibm.co...lease/19940.wss

Of course they can't just make big and disruptive changes. Why should they?

They can't simply 'make the leap' to Vista or Windoze 7 like Steve (suck my) Ballmer wants, either.

Even OSX capabilities don't match Windows...ist not equal and it certainly doesn't exceed. This is what makes Windows better.
The only thing you all ever harp on is insecurity or errors...etc...

Name something you "can't do" with OSX or Linux?

I mean besides play the latest frag-fest, which since you're posing this as a business issue, wouldn't make sense.

try having a billion users and see how many problems it brings you. The fact Apple has totally control over their platform is a benefit to them...no one ca mess it up. However Windows being so open and MSFT not haing the same control...means there is potential for risks..but teh risks don't outweight teh benefits...It is teh opposite compared to Linux/OSX...if a company jumps on those platforms with weighting associated risks they will die.

Try having over 100,000,000 OSX users and see what problems it brings you. Oh wait, not many. Yeah, they control their hardware, because they can. All you're arguing is that Windoze can't be fixed, which I agree with.

Any company that doesn't weigh 'risk/benefit' when they make decisions will 'die'.

Is 'Windows 7' zero risk?

It will certainly costs more, per license. So will the servers, which Microsoft always charges an arm and a leg (and another leg) for.

Cost..it cost way more money to certify a IT guy for Linux than it does for Windows. The hardware still cost teh same...can you run Linux on a less spec'd system vs Windows...yes...and you will have the same limits as you would with Windows. But you guys never tell that truth. try running as many software we do in Windows on a Linux machine..and see what it does. And NO...you can't do more in Linux on 256MB vs Windows either...again it depends on what you are doing. You guys never mention what you actually do one a Linux system...i know what business do...what do you do.

This is why you hire people who are already certified, and have a resume with references!

Lots of laid-off, already-trained IT guys looking for work.

Your average FOSS software is much smaller than your typical Windoze software. OpenOffice is about 100MB for pretty much everything. M$ Orifice comes on a DVD and uses most of it. It eats up over 1GB on the hard drive just to see the 'Splash' screen.


In fact dave....i am sure the system you are running Linux on now, you also still dual boot Windows. I would like you to send me a private message of all the progras you actually install in Linux and use. And pls provide links to where I can get them and what distro (probably Ubuntu) you are using. Based on my knowledge of computers which is advanced...i will see what is the degree of difficulty in implemeting them And i'll get back to you with an honest answer. Please don't give any hints on how...i'll figure it out.

Nope. No windoze on any partitions. Not even any NTFS/FAT file systems.

Mozilla Firefox (Pre-installed)
OpenOffice.org (Draw, Presentation, Spreadsheet, Word processor, etc., Pre-installed and/or Applications->Add/Remove )
Scribus Desktop Publishing (Applications->Add/Remove)
Inkscape (like Adobe Illustrator) (Applications->Add/Remove)
SeaMonkey (HTML editing) (Applications->Add/Remove)
Adobe Flex SDK Adobe.com
Adobe AIR Runtime Adobe.com
Flash 8 (through WINE) Macromedia.com
Audacity (Sound capture/editor) (Applications->Add/Remove)
The GIMP (Applications->Add/Remove)
jEdit, Eclipse, gvim (text editors/IDEs) (Applications->Add/Remove)
Various JAVA runtimes (Applications->Add/Remove, SUN.com)
Amarok (for MP3s) (Applications->Add/Remove)
GCC/GNU command line tools (Applications->Add/Remove)
Subversion (Applications->Add/Remove)
VMWare workstation (vmware.com)/VirtualBox (Applications->Add/Remove)

I can give one example of something I did try...that was creating a web server...Apache configuartion requires using a text file...which by a
typical computer users isn't easy to setup...theer are companies that use a GUI...I found ApacheConf...it works...but obviously you can do better using eh file only if you know how. I did learn...but it took we far longer with no GUI. In comparison in Windows Server...it took me 20 min to make a Windows achine a domain controller and get IIS running and aking a web page that worked...and in both cases I had never done it before. And I also just been playing with OSX Server...and its painful tho easier than Linux thank to teh fact OSX has a GUI and soe pretty good wizards. But Windows was still easier.

The 'best practice' for setting up your own web site is renting/leasing space on a server farm. They come with easy web-based setup, run either Linux or Windoze (or an easy 'scripting' environment), and provide all the power backup and internet connectivity you could ever need for one low price comparable to a single user internet connection, along with some guy there to press 'reset' 24/7. WAY cheaper than buying a machine and configuring it yourself and getting dinged by your ISP for the 'excess traffic'.

All I need is an ssh connection to do what I need with a remote server, but a web configurator is provided for most of them.

I personally wrote a server with a binary protocol for Flash that also serves web pages to it in C. None of this script-kid stuff. I didn't bother with setting up someone else's server. Too lazy. Just listen to a port, and do what needs done from there. Very simple. Once again, a few web searches and a little reading pay off.

Next MySQL vs MS SQL...to start i don't know any PHP coding...however I do know how to setup webservers to use PHP and I can install Joomla, Nuke and so many other websites based on PHP...I can however do a full HTML site just using Notepad,,try that with PHP..and no i didnt go to school for it either.
Forget using a host that already has done the work for you...I am looking at implementing it yourself...again MySQL is commandline...textfile driven...MS SQL is GUI with wizards...MS SQL isn't as easy to setup as MySQL as long as you download a 3rd party software to give you a GUI. However MS SQL is easier from the beginning.
I never 'went to school'.

Another example where GOOGLE helps, finds tools, finds documentation, and finds support.
http://www.google.co...rch?q=MYSQL+GUI
http://www.google.com/search?q=MYSQLGUIWizard

Based on what i see...a person who is a novice..has a 75% chance of completing a hard task in Windows he has never done before...vs using Linux. So if my multi-million dollar business and my only few IT guys happen to have taken the day off...the chances I could fix the problem is closer to zero..then it would be in Windows.

Did I mention you can 'google' for help, and nearly always find the solution?

Having never been to school...i took a small company of 50 employees fro using Windows NT and CC Mail...and migrated them to Windows 2000 Server and Excahnge 5.5...with no certification...no previos hands on with Exchange Server below Exchange 2003 and having never worked with MS SQL...All teh guy needed was to get it setup...he knew how to get what else he needed....I did it all in a half day...now...compare that for a novice who only understands basic computer terms and see if he can do that with Linux. THE ANSWER IS NO...and i know because I tried it. and it took me 2 days to get it where it was almost a science.

Having 'never been to school', I've programmed and shipped dozens of games on DOS/Win/Console/Palm/GB/GBC/AGB/Embedded platforms, developed code for Win32 and Linux servers, coded for administrated windoze and Linux workstations and servers, too.

Linux was never a 'problem' for me. But I 'cheat' and look up the answers on-line. Sometimes I even RTFM.

I do use Ubuntu (the icon is a dead give-away). It's just easy, and 'good enough'.

Try these Google searches...
Ubuntu (my hardware device) (variations of descriptions of my symptom(s))
Ubuntu (variations of descriptions of my symptom(s))
Ubuntu (variations of descriptions of my question(s))
Ubuntu howto (some device, software or service)
THEN ask for support on http://ubuntuforums.org/ if you're stuck.

People are very nice there and you'll get some help, especially if it's clear that YOU tried.

[TechieXP]

one quarter...its been 33 years since teh birth of Apple. 33 x 4 quarters = 132 quarters Apple has been behind. You're excited over 1 year. Doesn't take much for Apple fans to get excited...does it.

[Evildave]

Quote

I somehow sensed you would bite onto this one too... And spin it up. LOL! Don't worry, I learn fast. I take pleasure in detecting patterns...
Since your are Evildave, I wouldn't put it past you do be idaspud's alter ego, in light of the similar prose, style, avatar and timing...

No, lady, I don't do sock puppets.

If you like that sort of accusation, I might claim that it is equally easy for YOU to make a 'sock puppet' just to throw out some straw-man arguments that you have ready-made attacks for.

But here, I have a better idea. We'll have a moderator look up the IP address and tell us.

[TechieXP]

First of all I don't make decisions on what I buy based on what they say in the media. If I am interested in a product I see I look at its features, I look at its price and I look at its benefits.

Misinformed? Ok I was born in 69 so I have seen the history of Windows and what is now OSX. Lets get something straight. The present Apple Store has given people a place to get a bit more familiar with Macs then before. However why not explain why for decades Macs weren't very interesting at all. Just because they weren't everywhere doesn't mean you couldn't go to a place and become familiar with them. They weren't hard to find. School, jobs, colleges, artist, and so many more were using them. If Macs were so great why is it I watched a favor store go from all Apple to all PC in just days. People saw what they needed to see. They simply so a low cost platform that offered more then a Mac...that still hasn't changed much. It sdoesn't mean Macs are bad. I will never say that. I to don't have pc problems because I know what to use and not use.

Try this too. Your friends probably have less problems, because there are also less options. How many programs does Macs offer for use in a typical office? Mac Office and Quickbooks are just a few of very popular softwares avail on a Mac. What about proprietory software that MSFT and many other developers make that aren't even popular or retail...just simply custom programs for a business. They don't develop them for Mac.

Adobe only still makes Mac software simply because their software is designed to design...something Macs are good at. What happens if Adobe walked away...suppose MSFT stop making Office for teh Mac...then what...you think those i programs would save teh mac? what was mac before those programs...nothing...just another computer that anyone can choose if they want too.

What I dont get is why compare 2 companies who dont do the same thing. Apple is a hardware company that just happens to have an OS...they didnt invent...MSFT is a software company who happens to have an OS they didn't invent. However they haven't left their core business as they still make software.

[TechieXP]

I asked you to find a program that is in Windows that is proprietory like Lotus Notes that there is a free equal or better in Linux. And you came back with that? They say the best things in life are free? Aren't there exception...I know planty of guys who will tell you some of teh best sex they ever had cost them money vs free. Linux is free yet people rather steal Windows. Linux is free and makes up 1% of the market...oh i think its 2 now. Free isn't always better...I also notice that many things in life that are free always have a catch to them...

Look you can get this free laptop...sure after you spend money on stupid subscriptions to crap you wouldn't normally buy. Since Linus is free...why aren't large companies just head over heels to get it? You can't beat free right?

A multi-billion dollar company could save billions by upgrading to Linux..so why aren't they doing it. Yes some do...Many don't in comparision. If they aren't doing tell me why teh lil guy should...because you sais so?

I offered you a fair challenge...and I guess it was to hard for you.
IE and Office was no where near what I was talking about and you know it.
The reality is...you aren't going to find it based on those extreme instances


Lotus Notes isn't just an email client.
And free software does cost more...especially if it can't even do what software we pay for does. And I dont work for MSFT. I work for PRS...we are a Network Cabling company who has also designed its own PBX using Asterisk and Linux Centros.

Our techs and clients use softwares like Paperport which don't offer a compatible Mac or Linux software. Our clients use Lotus Notes which don't have Mac or Linux variants...and there are more.

I challenged you and because you couldn't answer the challenge you rather slam MSFt more with more idolescence.
Good luck to you and Linux 1% worldshare...even free you can't even beat OSX.

[fmaxwell]

MarioJP said:

whaaa?? wow what planet are you from pc and mac actually lets scratch off mac for a sec. PC games are dead?? that statement has made my day. Not only is that statement incorrect but really shows the mac fanboyism in you.

First off, unlike you, I am a man, not a boy. I'm 47. I've been in the computer industry since before you were born. I've owned more computers than you could count -- even with your shoes off. And only two have been by Apple.


The PC gaming industry is dead. It's been in articles all over the Internet, with major new releases flopping. Perhaps if you take your Ritalin, you can finish an article about the state of the PC gaming industry. High-profile first-person-shooter Unreal Tournament 3 only sold 34K copies for the PC in its first month. The Playstation 3 version almost tripled the PC number selling 86,633 copies in its first month, even with the console's small installed base.


For the quarter ended Dec. 31, Activision reported a net loss of $72 million, or 5 cents a share, compared to earnings of $86 million, or 15 cents a share, for the same period last year.


Still feeling frisky little boy?

MarioJP said:

I have one word Steam tons and tons of great games. In fact this is a good time to be playing pc games i can sure give u a long list of games coming out in 09 but that statement just made my day. So much that i don't even have to respond to that.

You would look less stupid had you not responded. Steam is a content delivery system owned by Valve, not a game publisher. Circuit City had 565 retail stores in the U.S. They just went bankrupt. Numbers, whether of stores or games, does not prove that an industry is healthy (see UT3 sales specs).

MarioJP said:

do you realize how baised you sound especially when you said "PC's and Macs" all i can say is LOL!!

How is it biased (or "baised" as you say) to cite the fact that sales of games for both platforms have taken a nosedive? Say LOL!! all you want, but I'm still correct.

MarioJP said:

Business?? you say. Gaming is a business and m$ is getting lots of it out of the 360 alone. Yes games for windows and live ain't perfect but its better than not having a games for windows branding its a start something optional that ms don't have to do and can by all means live without "Games for windows branding" Sides the 360 evolves around pc gaming because games are based on 360 and windows code. Both platform are sharing or similar alike such as Directx.

That was so incredibly incoherent, grammatically flawed, and illiterate that it was not even readable. Businesses don't care about DirectX. They care about total cost of ownership, support costs, security, and stability. They aren't playing 3D first person shooters in offices (just ask a grown-up) and don't care about 3D acceleration. Business people are not going to say "Microsoft's new version of Windows Enterprise Server is clearly the best product for my business needs because they make the Xbox 360 and you can play "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader?" on it (save your money: no, you are not).

MarioJP said:

In case you are lost or don't know what steam is. Here is more hard evidence for you buddy

I apparently do know what it is, but you seem confused by it.

When you go into an Apple store, you see products made for adults. If having Windows displayed near a bunch of Xbox 360 consoles was going to convince people that it was a great OS, Microsoft could just let Best Buy and Walmart continue to do just that for them.
You don't get it. You probably won't get it for at least another five years. But

[TechieXP]

Now ur just a liar. The PS3 doesn't even play PS or PS2 games...
I built my quadcore PC for $800. All 3 systems combined already cost way more then my pc...and I have use games from as far back as 1980..can you do that on any console? So what heppens when PS4 comes out...What about Wii II at least it is backwards compatible with Gamecube and GB Advanced games...But it still is going to last a much shorter time then a single pc...get real. Why you ever waste time spweing that stupid crap.

Why would u compare a console to a PC. when a console only can play games and have limited network capability. And gaming is its only benefit.

All versions of Windows can work with newer versions...networking and even office still works across teh board.You haven't made a point. I know a few Linux ditros built on the same kernel that arent compatible.Get over yourself

[MarioJP]

maybe its dead for u but i love pc gaming. i went to a apple store eh i left and went to the pc gaming section after that at babbages but i normally buy games online its the way to go. Anyways each to his/her own opinions. I will still continue to support this "niche market" and its fun. have fun with your overpriced apple =)

and i can see your not into games so fair enough but most people here do. Some people take their work way too seriously that they forget the most enjoyment of life. Hence is why games are created. If you look at the history of games there is actually a cause behind it. And it started in War war 2 days.

[MarioJP]

TechieXP said:

Now ur just a liar. The PS3 doesn't even play PS or PS2 games...
I built my quadcore PC for $800. All 3 systems combined already cost way more then my pc...and I have use games from as far back as 1980..can you do that on any console? So what heppens when PS4 comes out...What about Wii II at least it is backwards compatible with Gamecube and GB Advanced games...But it still is going to last a much shorter time then a single pc...get real. Why you ever waste time spweing that stupid crap.

Why would u compare a console to a PC. when a console only can play games and have limited network capability. And gaming is its only benefit.

All versions of Windows can work with newer versions...networking and even office still works across teh board.You haven't made a point. I know a few Linux ditros built on the same kernel that arent compatible.Get over yourself

that is so true the newer models sony scraped the ps2 backwards compatibility because ps3 couldn't emulate it through software. However if you have the first gen ps3 yes. The reason why the first gen ps3 was possible because it had the emotion engine processor built right on to the ps3's mb. Now its gone on the newer models resulting unable to play ps2 games on your ps3.
Only way to do it is if you have a ps2 but then that would be having more hardware. I like my hardware to be all in one. which pc's have done for years!! no pc1 pc2 or pc3 like consoles are LOL. Its just PC! and techiexp is right i can run games that were on the ps1 ps2 days under my current hardware.

[fmaxwell]

"This the same as a Mac. if you take a drive out of an x86 Mac and place it into a mac that has
teh PowerPC chipset...it will not work"

There are no Macs with Power PCs. There have not been for years. I'm talking current production stuff.
"First you have to find a Mac compatible hardware...not as easy to find and isn't as much choice
either. And you need to be way more technical to install hardware in a Mac."

Just put a 1TB drive into my Mac Pro. Procedure:
1. Pull lever and remove side panel.
2. Slide out empty drive bracket.
3. Screw drive to bracket using captive screws already in bracket.
4. Slide drive back in (no cables needed -- SATA connector mates with drive's SATA connector).
5. Close side panel and push lever back down.

But most users don't upgrade their own HW anyway. Think about how many pay huge $$$ to The Geek Squad to pop in SIMMs or put in a DVD burner.

I like the fact that there is only a small subset of video cards and add-on peripheral cards that work with the Mac. Like Sun, Apple recognizes that keeping the hardware base reasonable in size means that they can invest adequate time for development and testing. You don't see Sun workstations operating with any random video card -- that's why they are stable and in use in mission-critical data centers everywhere. It's also why you don't install versions of OS X and see drivers for 8-bit IDE SCSI controllers, Epson MX80 dot matrix printers, and 300 baud modems (all of which are supplied by MS for XP).

[WinTard]

Hey MarioJP, I agree with you the future of gaming is in PC's... I've got (for my now thirteen yr old son, he he) Xbox (now Linux), Xbox360, PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP, iPhone3G and all the cool stuff he or I could ever want (Including a 40" Samsung HDTV 1080p 1920x1080 non-interlaced @ 120HZ refresh) as main monitor plus a 24" 1920x1200 LCD as second, with a BFG-8800GTX, overclocked 4 core 8GB Vista x64 gaming system. And we're in the process of building the latest Kick-4$$ ultimate gaming second system based on the latest and greatest 8-core enthusiast mobo 16GB RAM + the sickest dual-sli GPU's around... All of course under Windows 7 x64. Why miss out on anything? Whatever's free, we'll benefit as well. Thus all of FOSS! While the various gaming consoles, are but mere toys... We don't miss out on anything! Unless we choose to. ;) Interoperability has its advantages (!)

I also took the Latin curriculum as a child. Is it obsolete? Yes. Useful? Definitely YES!

PS: I once got a compliment from a distraught friend: "You are so irresponsible, you turned him into a little clone of yourself..." I just understood she was under stress, and gave a big hug. She then apologized, and said she didn't mean it. But I said, "you've given me the best compliment yet! Thank you." So my son started playing at age 1 with Windows 2000 (beta), and Mother Goose... Now he does things on the computer, I can't even understand! Yeah, he's got a bright future in front of him. That's for sure.

~~~~~~~~~~
Better have it, and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Learning never exhausts the mind.
~ Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519, Italian Painter and Sculptor

[fmaxwell]

> Only difference is you pay more for a underpowered mac since you put it that way LOL.
[/quote]



Want to benchmark your PC against my Mac Pro?

Dual, 4-core Xeon CPUs (8 cores) running at 2.8ghz with 24MB of cache between them. 1600MHz, 64-bit dual independent frontside buses. 8GB of 800MHz DDR2 ECC (error-correcting) fully buffered RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT graphics card with 512MB GDDR3 memory running in a PCI Express 2.0 slot, dual 1TB SATA II hard drives with 32MB cache per drive.

So, what do you have to run against it?

Expensive? It's probably out of your price range, but Apple is aiming their products at your demographic. For me, I'm willing to pay more for top-quality products. I'll go to Ruth's Chris Steak House and you can go to an Outback steakhouse and then boast about how clever you were to pay less for a bigger steak.

[WinTard]

Since you mention it:

Yeah, I want to benchmark all the latest and greatest big brand PC games...

Ha! For the premium price of what you paid, I could get TWO complete systems, each with dual CPU each with 8 cores, Double the RAM, and can even run OS X should I want to, by building my own system... LOL!

Just google: Results 1 - 10 of about 3,580,000 for boot os x on a pc. (0.20 seconds)

Quote

OS X PROVEN hacked and running on an ordinary PCWhen it’s done, remove the ubuntu disc and shut down the pc. Disconnect your usb drive. Thats it! >When you power it back on, OS X should boot! ...
uneasysilence.com/os-x-proven-hacked-and-running-on-an-ordinary-pc/ - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

But why would anyone want to pay premium, just to run OS X? Who wants to run a closed-captive-market OS anyway? Too many better other offerings available out there, including all of the best FOSS has to offer. Please realize a Mac is but a mere PC in disguise.

PS: Oh, Windows 7 x64 Ultimate supports 32 cores per instance... And my current BFG - 8800GTX - 768 trumps the 8800GT GPU BTW. And I can put two in each system... Of course, I'll go to the latest GPU, not the 8800GTX. And BFG offers lifetime warranty! Supposedly Valve's Steam supports up to 128 cores per system, but I've yet to see that in reality... Vaporware? Today perhaps. But not for long... Anybody heard of Moore's Law? Welcome all, to the PC World as it is in reality. Competition is good! It prevents anybody from resting on their past laurels for too long...

~~~~~~~~~~
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
~ Oscar Wilde (Irish Poet, Novelist, Dramatist and Critic, 1854-1900)

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
~ Warren Buffett

Your premium brand had better be delivering something special, or it's not going to get the business.
~ Warren Buffett

[Evildave]

TechieXP said:

I asked you to find a program that is in Windows that is proprietory like Lotus Notes that there is a free equal or better in Linux. And you came back with that? They say the best things in life are free? Aren't there exception...I know planty of guys who will tell you some of teh best sex they ever had cost them money vs free. Linux is free yet people rather steal Windows. Linux is free and makes up 1% of the market...oh i think its 2 now. Free isn't always better...I also notice that many things in life that are free always have a catch to them...What? You want Lotus Notes on Linux, you got Lotus Notes. No difference in UI. No difference in server config. Total parity. If you're gonna spend the cash, spend the cash. No worse than 'upgrading' all of your Office/Windoze seats.

You want something that works 'just like Lotus Notes'?
Most Windoze whiners complain that something isn't EXACTLY the same, and here IBM sells EXACTLY the same thing for Linux (because they ARE big Linux supporters, BTW).
Apparently Mozilla thunderbird works 'Jolly Well' with it. Maybe give that a try.
www.scribd.com/doc/2607577/An-alternative-to-lotus-domino-email-client-on-linux
And the Linux server can be had for $30. Not free, but you'd be an awful cheapskate not to try it.
[http://www.syoma.com/download-cheap-IBMLotusDominoServer7.0.2forLinux(1cd).php]
> Look you can get this free laptop...sure after you spend money on stupid subscriptions to crap you wouldn't normally buy. Since Linus is free...why aren't large companies just head over heels to get it? You can't beat free right?Because Microsoft marketing is head-over-heels scrambling to make sure they sell to them first, and lock them in?
[/quote]
> A multi-billion dollar company could save billions by upgrading to Linux..so why aren't they doing it. Yes some do...Many don't in comparision. If they aren't doing tell me why teh lil guy should...because you sais so?Sun did something quite a lot like that. Ate StarOffice just so they wouldn't have to use M$ Orifice. Saved them 40,000 seats worth of M$ Orifice licenses, Windoze licenses, and the Wintel machines themselves. Cleared up everyone's desktop nicely, since most of them had SPARC machines on them. That became OpenOffice.org.
[/quote]
40,000 seats of NO MICROSOFT SOFTWARE times how much for that junk, per year? Adds up.
> I offered you a fair challenge...and I guess it was to hard for you.
IE and Office was no where near what I was talking about and you know it.
The reality is...you aren't going to find it based on those extreme instancesYou chickened out and cried 'foul' because I showed that ACTUAL Lotus Notes is on Linux, which you obviously weren't even aware of.
[/quote]
> Lotus Notes isn't just an email client. OK, what else is it? A floor wax? A dessert topping?
[/quote]
> And free software does cost more...especially if it can't even do what software we pay for does. And I dont work for MSFT. I work for PRS...we are a Network Cabling company who has also designed its own PBX using Asterisk and Linux Centros. Now you're just making the same baseless claims and parroting Microsoft shills.
[/quote]

> Our techs and clients use softwares like Paperport which don't offer a compatible Mac or Linux software. Our clients use Lotus Notes which don't have Mac or Linux variants...and there are more.

I challenged you and because you couldn't answer the challenge you rather slam MSFt more with more idolescence.
Good luck to you and Linux 1% worldshare...even free you can't even beat OSX.Paperport == [http://www.knowledgetree.com/]
[/quote]
They have a 'community edition', or you can buy a commercial version.
I fully answered the challenge line by line, and you decided to pretend I didn't. You won't even look at the software list I gave you, either. No big deal, you'd just make further baseless blanket claims that they're 'inferior' and ridiculous claims that they 'cost more' because they're free.
It's what you do. I understand.
I mainly care that the OPTIONS remain available besides one filthy monopoly supported by negligent morons.
Who cares about 'beating' anybody? One percent will become 2%, and more. Even as the 'percents' become worth MORE than 10 million.
We don't even have to advertise. It's just THAT GOOD.
The 10% that OSX has is 100,000,000 users. That's a lot of people for developers to go after. Lots of dumb programmers who can't adapt. Makes a lot of room for 'adaptable' sorts, like myself.
Another growing 'threat' to M$ market dominance are all of these little 'runtimes', like Java and now AIR. Write the app once, it runs on everything. OS doesn't matter.
Microsoft has 886,000,000 users now, down from around 915,000,000 users back in March '08. I wonder where all those users are going? Micro$uck loses more than 3% (more than 30,000,000 users), and Mac gains almost 3% (almost 30,000,000 users). Of course, you gotta ask how many of those users are running PIRATE copies of Windoze? Do they really count?
[http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9#]
My oh my, look at those lines gradually, but VISIBLY converging.
Of course, keep in mind that the OS market is GROWING while these numbers change. More first time buyers who'll probably stick to the same OS for life are buying things OTHER than Windoze.
Ten million users and the majority of the internet server infrastructure is pretty good. Not my fault some people are too dense and clueless to google for help or read a step-by-step FAQ/HOWTO to set up a web server.
As China (and probably India) makes Linux their standard, we'll probably see more movement down there at the bottom. But look at the bright side! They won't be pirating Windoze and M$ Orifice anymore! ALL LEGAL! No more robbing poor old Bill Gates.

[WinTard]

Actually, IBM is one of the major providers of intellectual property to the Open Source Initiative (OSI) movement, not just Linux, which is only a mere operating system kernel subset using Open Source... Praise IBM for that! They took many of their patents, and released them under the OSI. Since it's Open Source, Linux and everybody benefits, including Microsoft. ;)

Most of the Enterprise Class offerings of Linux, including journaling file system (similar to NTFS which is similar to HPFS) and clustering load balancing came from IBM proprietary patents.

Please google: Results 1 - 10 of about 29,200 for IBM intellectual property open source contribution. (0.22 seconds)

At one point, Microsoft's arch-rival was IBM... We all know where that led to. OS/2 Lotus Notes and all... And at that time, Microsoft was the underdog...

Seems to me the trend nowadays is everybody is interoperating much better than in the past! Just look at Apple! All using industry standard protocols now! No more of the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome, like AppleTalk networking or AppleBus in prior incompatible machines. Now one can use any regular PC card in an Apple. LOL! There is a nice convergence, and that is absolutely good for EVERYBODY!!!

Alas the reverse-side to the coin for Apple, is no more of this exclusitivity exclusions... But it's working on the bottom line. Look at the market share grow by leaps and bounds! At the same time, it opens Macs to hackers, LOL! One step at a time. Joining the PC revolution was their largest and most difficult leap of faith. The next step is allowing clones. Why? Because one company can't be THE BEST at everything. It's impossible. Simply by virtue of the enormous demands on generic computers of the future... There's no way one single company can do it all: Hardware, software, application. Just no way.

~~~~~~~~~~
If you can't beat them, join them.

[MarioJP]

fmaxwell said:

> Only difference is you pay more for a underpowered mac since you put it that way LOL.Want to benchmark your PC against my Mac Pro?







Dual, 4-core Xeon CPUs (8 cores) running at 2.8ghz with 24MB of cache between them. 1600MHz, 64-bit dual independent frontside buses. 8GB of 800MHz DDR2 ECC (error-correcting) fully buffered RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT graphics card with 512MB GDDR3 memory running in a PCI Express 2.0 slot, dual 1TB SATA II hard drives with 32MB cache per drive.













So, what do you have to run against it?













Expensive? It's probably out of your price range, but Apple is aiming their products at your demographic. For me, I'm willing to pay more for top-quality products. I'll go to Ruth's Chris Steak House and you can go to an Outback steakhouse and then boast about how clever you were to pay less for a bigger steak.

Now why would i want a mac pro if i can get a skulltrail instead that can quad sli or crossfire (4 graphics cards) =) and to top of that you need to install windows on a mac pro. So the only difference is apple takes the fun out of overclocking and having quad sli or crossfire with your gpu's hmm?? just admit it macs arent sutiable for gaming it just tries to be in the pc gaming realm by trying to bootcamp with windows LOL

[SkateNY]

Nice post, fmaxwell.



I will go further and argue that the basic difference between Apple and Microsoft is not that the former is not simply a hardware company and the latter is not simply a software company. No. The difference resides in their core customers. It has not always been this way for them, but Apple targets non-business consumers, while Microsoft targets IT departments in big business and in government. Each excels at what they do.



The difference? Apple doesn't curry to big business; big business comes to them when Apple provides a compelling product. For Microsoft, their efforts at seducing non-business consumers has historically ended up in failure: the Zune, Xbox (despite its market penetration, it's a failure in terms of profits), Microsoft Bob, Vista, .net, and on and on. Microsoft needs to concentrate on what they do best instead of trying to gobble up every available OS penny among consumers.



Microsoft has lost their way. Now, in an effort to change this, they're planning to open retail stores. I don't and can't know whether or not this will be a success. What I do know is that whenever Microsoft bends to consumer demands, they fail, and they fail miserably.

[SkateNY]

Wrong. Very wrong.



There have been so many overnight millionaires writing games for the iPhone/iPod touch, that it's almost impossible to miss all the articles about them.



One of the most recent articles is about a nine year old boy who made a fortune writing for Apple's app store. And, after that, there's a guy who's an engineer for Cisco who wrote a game for the iPhone/iPod, and is now pulling in over $30,000/day.

[WinTard]

I agree with you SkateNY. In my opinion, Microsoft has been a trend-setter and leader for the past thirty years, prior to that, IBM was. So now from where they stand, being the king of the hill, there is but only one way, and it's down!

However bottom line results counts too: Microsoft has not ignored consumer's demands, or else they wouldn't be the mammoth they are today. And they didn't do it on the enterprise. The enterprise strategy was simply expertly executed.

While in all fair assesment, Apple's performance has been dismal if averaged over their 33 years of existence, and the recent gains are merely the result of proper business decisions regarding the key architecture they are going to follow, instead of invent. Why re-invent the wheel? On the positive side, they can't go any lower than where they are, thus their future looks brighter.

But instead of criticizing anybody, let's praise Microsoft for bringing us what nobody prior to them could, and that is to vulgarize the personal computer into every household, into a solid standard that can be built upon. Without the PC, there would be no FOSS.

Hey here's a wild idea. Since GNU 's original stated mission was to develop a free complete operating system Unix like (because Unix was and still is closed source) but GNU is NOT Unix (recursive definition), perhaps now that Windows XP has become mainstream, and is being discontinued in favor of Windows 7, It may have lost all monetary value to Microsoft? Thus, they could and perhaps should donate it to the public domain, like IBM contributed over 500 of their proprietary patents as a gift to the community!!! And as a token of goodwill. On the practical side, they could claim billion of dollars of intellectual property R&D as tax write-offs. For a finite product, whose end is in sight.

Don't forget that Windows XP was the single most extensive software engineering endeavour in the history of mankind, with well over 25 million lines of source code upon initial release. That is nothing to be sneered at.

Will it happen? Don't think so. But it's a nice idea nonetheless. I'd love to see a GNU like open-source Windows XP and all. Just for the fun of it.

You know java, mocha, capuccino, expresso, variety is the spice of life, don't you think?

Open source also needs evolution! Why restrict ourselves to Unix like only?

~~~~~~~~~~
In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.
~ Dr. Laurence J Peter, The Peter Principle

The only constant is change.
~ Confucius

To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
~ Winston Churchill

Whatever goes up must come down.
~ Sir Isaac Newton (observing or experiencing an apple coming down or so they say...)

Those who think outside the box, see things differently...