[eMJay]

Ok, I guess i can call it a draw.

You made good points, and I don't have a problem with stating that IE8 will likely turn out to be better secured than IE7, given all the security features it now possesses. In general, I wish IE8 users the best of luck.

[WinTard]

Touché my friend! Your wisdom and sincerity are a rare quality, one which I deeply appreciate, and respect.

In the end, it all boils down to personal preferences, no need to amplify and justify them with 'stepping onto others' just to become adequate.

I am glad to hear feedback such as yours, showing me people that like Safari, another friend and fan of Apple, SkateNY has opened my eyes to the elegance of Apple designs and Safari in particular.

I'd rather focus on what's good, rather than looking for what's wrong, in anything. Alas as any human being, I somehow feel the need to voice my opinions, when I find a statement to be untrue, such as FF is more secure than IE. But nevertheless, you are right in everything you state, and that is why I always welcome your opinions, and take them seriously.

Also I totally respect and understand others reaction, when they hear IE is more secure than FF for instance.

It's all good!

My best regards, mikedgolf40505 :x

~~~~~~~~~~
Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it.
~ Confucius

You don?t have to be wrong for me to be right.
~ Brad Hirschfield

It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself.
~ Eleanor Roosevelt

Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.
~ Steve Jobs

[WinTard]

I really love it when true enthusiasts can agree on something! You sir are a gentleman and scholar. :x

Oh, for the record, if I like IE 51%, then I like FF 49% for all the cool functionality, plug-ins, and just the way it feels. And that said, I like Chrome for its speed, and am truly looking forward to the Safari experience too. In time. The 2% difference, I'll attribute to the ClearType technology font rendering.

~~~~~~~~~~
Shared joy is joy doubled. Shared sorrow is sorrow halved.
{Swedish Proverb}

When everyone thinks alike not much gets thought.
~ Johan Norberg

Few people have the imagination for reality.
~ Johann von Goethe

[mikedgolf40505]

Thank you for the kind words. You should check out the comments being posted on the OSX is very susceptible article. How people can have two different versions of reality never fails to amaze me. I guess fair minded people like ourselves are forever cursed by having to deal with the gullible and deluded. For a Mac fan like myself to deny the huge contribution to the global economy, humanity, and quality of life that Microsoft and Bill Gates have done, would be embarrassing. It is a shame to say that their are those in the Open Source community and the Mac community who would criticize Microsoft if they developed a Star Trek like machine that synthesized food and material possessions out of nothing. I kind of wonder if this is not a war on capitalism? I also greatly respect you and your fair mindedness. There is no reason that a Windows user and a Mac user cannot have mutual respect. Like I stated earlier; I really do like the Vista Business that I use at work. If find it to be much more stable than my XP machines, also faster. That is just my opinion and not fact. I do also question all of these articles that talk about the adoption of Mac in the workplace. I have not seen it, although I am not in every industry. But paying a premium for equipment is not something I would put into my business plan. I love my Mac for a couple reasons. First is the build quality; it is built like a brick outhouse. I feel very comfortable taking it anywhere. The second is the lack of market share which keeps it safe. In my personal life I do not mind paying quite a bit more for a similarly equipped Apple.

[WinTard]

I like your thoughts VHMP01. Pardon my humble opinion, as I do not want to appear patronizing, but you too are a gentleman and scholar. :x

~~~~~~~~~~
The best mind-altering drug is the truth.
~ Lily Tomlin

Truly successful decision making relies on a balance between deliberate and instinctive thinking.
~ Malcolm Gladwell

[elhombrenuclear2007]

I would like to pc world show some test about IE8 vs IE7,wich is better?

I use firefox for everithing browsing and keep IE7 only to microsoft downloads or updates ,but now firefox 3.0.7 takes

longer to load images in web pages,

as everybody knows IE7 crash continuosly,and stiky by the antiphishing filter,making pages load slower,and using

IE PRO to tweak only improves a little to speed ,so

How woulb be better IE8 than IE7?what's a diference?

[edburrell1212]

Check out the RAM that is being used on the new IE and I bet it is a LOT greater that Firefox -- This is very important to those of us who have older computers.

[bballsulli]

I tried IE8 with AOL and it messed up my AOL. When I called AOL they said that IE8 is NOT compatible with AOL and I had to delele IE8 and go back to IE7 to get my AOL to work properly. That is what they advised me to do. I use AOL 9.0 VR. I have no problem using Firefox as my primary Browser when I am out of AOL but AOL is hooked in with IE so I have no choice there. Do NOT use IE8 with AOL!!!!

[Marcomike]

Speed isn't the issue, stability is! I have found that IE8 will shut down if it finds any discrepancy when error or faults are found o a webpage. As to the type of faults it finds are no explain, I'll still prefer Foxfire over IE any day of the week.

[TechieXP]

looking at my screenshot, Firefox is using more resources than IE8. I was very surprised.
IE is usually using quite a bit. I use no plugims in FF @ all.

I would like to know why in IE7 or IE8 when I want to put a picture in PCWorld it doesn't work, but works perfect in FF?!

[WinTard]

elhombrenuclear2007 said:

I would like to pc world show some test about IE8 vs IE7,wich is better?

I use firefox for everithing browsing and keep IE7 only to microsoft downloads or updates ,but now firefox 3.0.7 takes

longer to load images in web pages,

>

Quote

as everybody knows IE7 crash continuosly,and stiky by the antiphishing filter,making pages load slower,and using

IE PRO to tweak only improves a little to speed ,so

How woulb be better IE8 than IE7?what's a diference?

Hello elhombrenuclear2007. IMHO, IE8 is more stable and secure than IE7 by virtue of using advanced features such as Data Execution Prevention (DEP) and Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR) feature present in Vista and Windows 7, but not XP. IE7 was designed for XP I suppose? As well, as things get polished over time, IE8 is probably more efficient than IE7 in terms of usage of resources such as time and space (CPU cycles and RAM). Thus may appear faster than older browsers. In addition, IE8 doesn't require all kinds of add-ons to speed-it up so as-is out of the box, it apparently functions as well as FF 3.0.7 albeit minus the cool features custom plug-ins perform.

I don't see any issues, since both browsers are free, you might as well use both, and decide yourself by natural selection, which one you prefer. But no need to 'dump' on one or the other, simply use the one that works best for you? Yet in order to be open-minded like that, one must install both browsers, which shouldn't be significant problem for any PC enthusiast.

In itself, just having IE8 installed (and possibly not utilized) on your system wouldn't IMHO detract from the stability, or security afforded by Windows. Thus to me, all these partisan clashes between IE8 vs Firefox are moot and futile... My logic is on the rare websites where one type of browser doesn't work, use the alternative.

I personally use both, and just happen to use IE8 more often now. Because they also implemented a "compatibility view button: websites designed for older browsers will often look better, and problems such as out of place menus, images or text will be corrected"... (verbatim from when you hover the mouse pointer over that button in IE8).

I can also report the fact that since I use IE the most, 99% of all my 780+ posts here on PCWorld were done in IE7, and since this week, in IE8, without apparently too much troubles. No such things as IE crashing, exiting, or other nonsense like that. The worst that happens is the java-script editor entry window, implemented by the PCWorld web programmers or the software ISV that produces this forums software, has serious bugs in it. Basically it doesn't work properly, either in IE or FF. Requiring me to save, then come back to edit what I composed, to format it properly on screen. So what I do is I use Notepad as a buffer, cut-and-paste everything into Notepad (or Word if I want spell-check), then go edit that java-script window and if and when something doesn't work, such as the save button, then I simply go back to the original post, by pressing the back button twice, once, gets me back into the edit screen, twice, gets me back before the edit, just like when I read the thread. Then I press edit on my post, and paste whatever is in Notepad, safe and secure, then proceed from there. The neat thing with this method, is I can finally make the HTML text look like I want, without artifacts.

I repeat, IE7 or IE8 doesn't crash for me. Well never say never, but I can count on my ten fingers, when this has happened in the past six years or so, going back to much earlier versions of IE.

That is why I continue to maintain my belief that 99.99% of the causes to all computer problems usually can be traced back to what sits between the chair and keyboard. :)

No offenses please anybody! ;)

Good luck, and happy computing!

PS: credit where credit is due. When a webpage doesn't display correctly in any browser, usually it is the fault of the website... For having incorrect web programming. Yes, web programmers, know which type of browser they are dealing with, but perhaps due to laziness, don't bother to polish and tailor their codes to all browsers. Once their job is done, they stop, and ignore the fact there are many various browsers out there... It's easier to simply pass the buck, and claim that Microsoft IE sucks and doesn't follow "standards"... What is a standard? There are de-facto standards and de-jure standards. Those created in a vacuum on a high-tower by superior beings are called de-jure. Whereas, de-facto is simply reality in terms of popular usage. My intuition tells me there are many more clueless users out there, than there are enthusiasts like most of us here reading a technical forum on PCWorld. These inexperienced computer users, won't go dig up other browsing software, if a built-in browser exist. Since Microsoft has 89% of the market, I presume the de-facto standard is 89% of the web browsers must be IE. Now factor in the aficionados and connoisseurs of web browsers and that figure may drop to 51%? Perhaps? Assuming 38% of computer users have enough expertise to care about the differences... And that is a generous figure IMHO.

My point is in terms of deployment, perhaps not preferences or usage, IE has 89% of the market. That fact in itself makes it the de-facto standard, regardless of what purists say.

Another example of de-jure vs de-facto standard would be UCSD (University of California, San Diego) Pascal vs Borland Turbo Pascal. The Pascal language was invented by an academic (Nicholas Wirth) to teach programming and purposely designed without 'jmp' or 'goto' statement, to force students to utilize structured programming. Yet Borland's real-world implementation did give you a goto statement, including in-line assembly macros. Thus the eternal Academic vs Applied or Theory versus Practice arguments. Oh engineering is applied sciences, not pure sciences... Both are critically important and essential disciplines.

Slightly OT: Google
Results 1 - 10 of about 5,980 for inventor of pascal nicholas wirth. (0.15 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 584,000 for Borland Turbo Pascal. (0.15 seconds)

Can anyone see a few orders of magnitude pattern here?

[eMJay]

Actually, FF uses less memory resources than IE8...that's been pretty much confirmed.

It comes down to how the browsers handle resources for each tab. FF uses one process to handle all the resources for all the tabs, and this has the advantage of allowing it to use significantly less memory than browsers that use multiple processes (eg. IE8 and Chrome). IE8 uses multiple processes to separate resources for each tab. This enables the browser to survive a crash caused by a single tab. The problem there is that tab isolation ends up requiring more memory because resources that would otherwise be shared between the tabs have to be duplicated. The end result is that, as you open more and more tabs in IE8, each new tab must take up more Ram than additional tabs do in FF and other browser that use a single process.

There's a second issue with IE8's memory management. It's been shown that the more memory your PC has, the more IE will use it. I saw a review that showed a Vista system with 4GB Ram was using 50+MB more Ram than one with 1GB Ram, even though they had the same 10 tabs open. No word yet on how this affects performance.

[WinTard]

TechieXP said:

looking at my screenshot, Firefox is using more resources than IE8. I was very surprised.
IE is usually using quite a bit. I use no plugims in FF @ all.

I would like to know why in IE7 or IE8 when I want to put a picture in PCWorld it doesn't work, but works perfect in FF?!

I am using IE8, and your picture seems to work? Nevertheless, the error is related to a java-script error on the part of PCWorld. Well, who wrote the script? The problem is the java-script debugger in FF is vastly superior to the IE debugger. Thus most programmers prefer FF for that reason. At work we run into exactly the same problem. All developers initially start their coding in FF, then must correct whatever doesn't render properly in IE, and they don't like it. Extra work... Yet our clients demand IE compatibility and not FF. Catch-22? You know people like AT&T, Comcast, Charter, Time-Warner (yes TMC), Videotron, Rogers, Bell, Alcatel, the big telecommunications providers... Corporately, their standard is Windows, and IE. Period. Good or bad isn't for me to judge.
Message was edited by: WinTard
Funny, it was all looking okay in the java-script editor of PCWorld, but upon save, it wasn't WYSIWYG. LOL! Well, I won't bother fix that picture, I'm too lazy, and am a bit annoyed at all these unpolished scripts... Yes I experience more troubles here, than on ZDnet, or slashdot for example.

It isn't the mountain ahead that's going to wear you down. It's the pebble in your shoe... ~ Muhammad Ali.

[titico]

Hello guys, why don't you test Google Chrome also? it may be useful to compare even that one =)

[WinTard]

titico said:

>Hello guys, why don't you test Google Chrome also? it may be useful to compare even that one =)

Hello titico!

Oh I am testing Chrome and love it. The problem is it doesn't render correctly IMHO. Yet it was the winner at the hacker contest, nobody could hack it, with its sandbox being the BEST and most secure of all browsers to date... And generally the fastest too! Alas, I can't get it to work under Windows 7 Ultimate x64 beta...

I admire Google for what they do!

PS: and no, it's not Window 7 fault... ;)

[elhombrenuclear2007]

Ok lady,I like your answer,but, the history is for ever,and new versions will always came,and the history say IE crash continuosly inestable and unsecure,so we expect new ones to be better,is that right?

yeah,that's why technology is getting new ways to improve security and performance about browsers,I will need to test those new

as IE 8 and Google chrome,but does not need more than that I use,so as I say before,

I keep IE only to microsoft downloads or updates,and need nothing else better than firefox to dayli browsing,thats secure and faster way to find

anything in the web keeping pc performance and secured.,about downloading?firefox scan downloaded files using antivirus in pc but IE doesn't

Well thanks , you show me something more abou tweb programers ,and that is an advantage ,10 Q lady.

[rifter]

"I am using IE8, and your
picture seems to work? Nevertheless, the error is related to a
java-script error on the part of PCWorld. Well, who wrote the script?
The problem is the java-script debugger in FF is vastly superior to the
IE debugger. Thus most programmers prefer FF for that reason. At work
we run into exactly the same problem. All developers initially start
their coding in FF, then must correct whatever doesn't render properly
in IE, and they don't like it. Extra work... Yet our clients demand
IE compatibility and not FF. Catch-22? You know people like AT&T,
Comcast, Charter, Time-Warner (yes TMC), Videotron, Rogers, Bell,
Alcatel, the big telecommunications providers... Corporately, their
standard is Windows, and IE. Period. Good or bad isn't for me to judge."



There's more to it than just coding differences between IE and Firefox. The approach to creating software and programs is part of the reason they have so many problems and why they are the # 1 target for hackers. I've worked in the industry in retail, as a tech, as a small business owner, warranty repair, etc. Every time I've had to deal with Microsoft, it has left a bad taste in my mouth. The way they do business (like how they gained that 89% market share of browsers) has landed them in court here and in Europe. All of that effects how the software they put out works. I often wonder how much farther along we'd be if they had gone along with some of the other companies who had good products to create standards that were universal instead of forcing everybody to do it their way.

Bottom line is, I will always look for an alternative (ie. Firefox, Thunderbird, etc.) to a Microsoft product before using what they put out. I'm sure IE8 is better than IE7, relatively speaking, but there's a whole lot more involved in deciding whether to use on of those or Firefox, or some other browser. I like Mozilla's approach, and the fact that because they are smaller, they have to be smarter and more efficient in their coding in order to compete with the behemoth that is Microsoft.

Not trying to stir up any fights here, just stating some facts, and reminding everybody that we should consider every aspect when deciding on what to use, not just which one is a microsecond faster loading a web page.

[dragon69]

i don't know where you people keep getting 89% from but wiki says
that this is the browser usage that comes to there page



Internet Exploder has 67.51%
Mozilla's Firefox has 21.73 %
Safari has 8%
Google Chrome has 1.15%
Opera has 0.90%



and 67.51% is a little less then 89% just pointing out some incorrect facts that keep coming up

[TechieXP]

I think people are taking the browser wars way to seriously.
A browser is only as safe as the person using it. Hackers aren't looking to exploit a typical home user. They are usually looking for corporate users, especially users who work with people that have a close dealing with people's identities.

If people just be safe while browsing they won't have many or any issues. EVER. No matter which browser you use. You are the front door since hackers can't get in the backdoor. Would you open your window in your car to a stranger who walks up to it asking for something? Hackers work on the fact some people are green or gillible enough to do so and BAM!!! they get hit.

I saw a commenmter mentioned he like FF better and felt it was safer because with plugins he could increase his browsers security. So you're happy that a 3rd party found a way to increase browser security...but the original developer didn't? Since the original developer wrote the code then they should be teh best to write the security for it. I am not saying the 3rd party can't increase it, but how familiar are you with the 3rd party? What is teh old saying? To many cooks spoil a good dinner?

Also since IE is teh best browser out there developers of other browsers need a foundation to start with in order to make something better. Any broswer would surely at this point be more secure than IE6. But IE7? IE8? I'm not so sure. I think devlopers are still banking on the fact that since IE is used more less people will attack them. That is however going to change.

I read that geram guys work on what he was able to accomplish. I am not going to say what works on one browser and not another is easier or harder. The difference is in teh programming. Once users get more familiar with the code of another broswer it will only be a matter of time. I dont think they choose IE because it is easier...they choose it because they are already more familiar with it. And if MSFT doesn't change they will simply be familiar no matter what version is released. MSFT I think simply needs to rebuild teh code from scratch.

I saw comparisons if IE8 in Vista vs Windows 7. WRONG!. Both OS's are built different and thus IE will only take advantage of the code supplied by the OS> Even though IE8 both are essential teh same program by name, doesn't make it the same software underneath. And it simply isn't. Vista doesn't offer the same advanced security features as Windows 7. How could it. as it is older code.

Speed? How fast do we really need to go? What's the hurry? How many people die everyday in cars because they ate so in such a hurry? Wouldn't that apply with computers? Thats why hackers work is so cut out for them. We provide teh means for them too make hacking easier. IE and FF are better than any other browser out there for now. I don't think speed should matter, or addons eaither. If speed was so important, we'd all be driving Lamborghini's. If options were so important, ever car would simply preinstall the best ones upfront...leaving you no option. Security should be nubber aspect...but not teh only. The other plus should also be considered. But just because one offers one thing and another doesn't...or not in the same way...don't make it better or worse...it is simply another option.

IE will still be my number one pick. And now that 8 is faster, I certainly don't need FF very much. I use FF at work more only because my computer is old as hell and IE is simply to much of a resource hog for a low spec'd system. Since it is using WIndows 2000 I can't use IE7 or 8 to see if there would be a major difference. And I am very sure that since Windows 2k doesn't offer what Vista or 7 does, FF 3.0.7 is certainly less secure in 2k vs the latest Windows.

The german guy also mentioned how easy it was to hack Safari on a Mac. So much for security through obscurity. I think this shows, that even though it is easier to exploit a Mac, no one cares because Macs aren't used in the corporations hackers like to attack. If you hacked a Mac the most valuable thing you'd probably get is artwork or music that either the user has already published...or can easily proved it is his if stolen. Not teh same as a Windows user on a network for companies that have your social security number, credit card or credit information. Remember teh kid who managed to hack Visa's network and stole Bill Gates credit card? Hackers are looking to shutdown or steal from major corps...not teh typica home users. Home users don't possess anything that couldn't be gathered on their own. However if you do have sensitive information on your pc, browsers aren't your only entrance to them. File sharing programs ar surely much worse.

And don't expect anti-virus, spyware and malware programs to totally protect you. Hackers know how to get around them to. Even a theif can get past alarms.

IE8 has only been out a few days, and all I see if fuel being added to the fire. How good or bad a software is can't be thrived in such short time. I been using IE since 4.0 found in Windows NT Workstation. Of couse than the internet wasn't a security issue. I think MSFT has been working hard not only with IE, but the foundation of the OS to make them secure. There will always be holes...if it was so easy there wouldn't be any. All software is inherently buggy. Any IT person will tell you the only true way to secure a computer no matter what OS or browser, is too never place it on a network...espcecially a public one.

[WinTard]

I entirely agree with all your points. That is the very reason I use IE, FF and Chrome on a daily basis. And am about to investigate Safari. My point is just because one uses FF, shouldn't mean they have to ban and exile IE. Or vice-versa.

~~~~~~~~~~
What matters is not what you look at but what you see.
~ Anonymous

Leave yesterday alone. Tomorrow's what matters.
~ Jonathan Cainer

It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance.
~ Thomas Huxley, 1825-1895, English Biologist