[WinTard]

[quote name='asiafish']
>

TechieXP said:

> You're 100% correct...and I agree. So if speed is more important to me which is is...then based on what matters to be what I bought was better. i didn't even say it was better overall.
>
> A Mc Claren F1 and a Porsche Carrera GT have a lot in common...spped for one as both cars can exceed 200mph...with many thing being equal...like being hand built...and costing 6 figures...the F1 wins out because it is faster at 240 mph vs teh Porsche at 202...faster is better where everything is basically equal. With the systems I compared they had several similarities even if they are not in the exact same class. I was simply comparing what you get for similar cost. the biggest trade of was battery life and 5 extra pounds. However many other espects are very similar...so thus they can be compared...even a benz can be compared with a less costlier car...as long as what you compare is very similar.

Thats your problem, you aren't comparing similar products. You are comparing that McClaren F1 to a Hummer - totally different class and not at all in competition with one another.

On this one, I can't resist yet again, sorry. But the comparison is flawed... Apple vs PC's are not like comparing F1 to Hummers... LOL.

Apples are definitely NOT F1's. Since they are less performant and slower to start with, and to end with... Um unless you imply Apples are Hummers...? :D

No, Apple would be more like comparing to BMW's or Mercedes. High price. Mid performance. Low value. And that isn't bashing. This is reality.

You yourself said: You would rather choose stability over performance. Hence stable drivers etc...

I will stand by my statement: In terms of performance, there is not a single Apple Mac that can outperform a high-performance PC. On weight and size, yes. But not performance at any price.

~~~~~~~~~
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
~ Warren Buffett

Your premium brand had better be delivering something special, or it's not going to get the business.
~ Warren Buffett

{As evidenced by market share distribution...}

[asiafish]

WinTard said:

On this one, I can't resist yet again, sorry. But the comparison is flawed... Apple vs PC's are not like comparing F1 to Hummers... LOL.

Apples are definitely NOT F1's. Since they are less performant and slower to start with, and to end with...

Never said they were, just illustrating the mis-match of comparing an 11 lb luggable to a 5 lb portable or a 3 lb ultraportable like TechiXP wants to do.

Quote

No, Apple would be more like comparing to BMW's or Mercedes. High price. Mid performance. Low value. And that isn't bashing. This is reality.

Yup, that is where Apple competes, to be compared with other models in that same class. TechieXP's 11 lb luggable is no Mercedes or BMW, it is more like a Nascar racer, very fast, but not very practical for day-to-day work. Not better or worse than a 5.5 lb MacBook Pro or a 3 lb MacBook Air, but too different to be considered by the same buyer.

Quote

You yourself said: You would rather choose stability over performance. Hence stable drivers etc...

Yup, which is why I buy business machines instead of gamer machines even though I do moderate gaming. The business use is simply more important. If I used it for gaming first and only caried it out of the house once or twice per month I'd get a gamer machine.

Quote

~~~~~~~~~
Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
~ Warren Buffett

And usually they are related, either directly or indirectly.

Quote

Your premium brand had better be delivering something special, or it's not going to get the business.
~ Warren Buffett

Yup, and many do while some don't. Mercedes and BMW deliver something special, and so does Apple.
As evidenced by market share distribution.

Yup, and in laptops over $1000 Apple is the number one in US market share and has 28 billion dollars in cash. They must be doing something right.

[WinTard]

Well Samsung must be doing something right too? US$100B in 2008 and 2007... Apple's revenues are FAR less than that. Yes Apple must be exploiting their customers very well to be sitting on that much cash in the bank, instead of doing something with it... I wonder what Apple's stockholders think?

In thread Apple to Microsoft: It's On sfoalex said:
Apple is not 8% marketshare. Perhaps in the United States, but not world wide they are not. Microsoft had over $47 billion in cash, but gave $30 billion away in the form of a large dividend because their share holders felt they were hording too much cash. Right now, stock holders are starting to feel that same way about Apple. They don't give a dividend and they don't invest the cash. It sounds awesome to have all that cash, but as a stock holder I can tell you investors want to invest in a computer company, not a cash holding company.

[MicTig]

While I agree that the OS choices for Windows are overpriced and somewhat confusing (not $800 for the average consumer BTW), I have to disagree with your statement about Windows users being "likely to need a hardware upgrade". You'd be surprised to know that Windows 7 (the next OS from Microsoft) can run on a Netbook. Easily. I have read of people digging up 6 year old laptops and using Windows 7 on it better than XP. Therefore, I am going to guess that especially in this economy, and even more especially if Microsoft is smart and lowers the price of Windows, many people are acutally not going to simply buy a new PC but actually upgrade their Operating System. Also, there are many businesses who will want to upgrade from XP to 7 since they skipped Vista (for reasons I can understand), but now with 7 having such low System Requirement and also with "XP Virtualization", I believe they will upgrade.

But then again, anything can happen.

[asiafish]

WinTard said:

Well Samsung must be doing something right too? US$100B in 2008 and 2007... Apple's revenues are FAR less than that. Yes Apple must be exploiting their customers very well to be sitting on that much cash in the bank, instead of doing something with it... I wonder what Apple's stockholders think?

Samsung is goind quite well, but then PCs and their components are not their only business. Samsung is a massive conglomerate with government backing in South Korea that makes everything from memory chips to supertankers.

I would dare to guess that Apple's PC business is more profitable than Samsung's PC business, while Samsung's monitor business makes Apple's look pathetic.

My brother-in-law even drives a Samsung car in Seoul, its a two-generation-old Nissan Maxima currently sold in Korea as the Samsung SM7.

[WinTard]

You mean the American Car industry isn't backed by the US Government? I'm only making a point here. Let's not get too off topic.

And isn't Hyundai also a huge conglomerate, Korean backed? Oh and Lucky Goldstar is also Korean LG Electronics (Life's Good?). You mean all these three giant manufacturers are great solely because they are backed by the South Korean Government?

If that is the case, that Korean government must be doing something right... Because these companies are World-Class.

What about Made In China? Apples are made by Foxconn, which also makes more than Apple BTW in revenues per year... But they also make everything else for HP, Dell, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Motorola, etc... Including the almighty aluminum cases for the MacBooks... Manufacturing using the best-of-breed practices, using economies of scale principles. To Foxconn (Foxconn (???) is the trade name of the Taiwan based firm Hon Hai Precision Industry Co.) Apple is just another brand, and customer like Dell or HP. Not the other way around. LOL!

Speaking of Hyundai, their Genesis line is simply OUTSTANDING and provides better value than anything else I've seen so far. As I'm not interested in luxury, but performance, I can say my next day-to-day car will be this Genesis Coupe. Nothing will touch it at that price, and I expect the quality to be superior to anything I've owned so far. Yet I've never owned a Hyundai car in my life...

Have you seen my youtubes on the Corolla XRS? 142MPH out of a stock 1.8L 4? Wait till it gets blueprinted, and souped up... When I said I smoked M3's I wasn't kidding. Because after all it is a 50+mpg ultra-low emissions vehicle with a .28 drag coefficient, sleeker (more aerodynamic) than a Lamborghini or Porsche. But I admit it looks more like the nose of an airplane... Looks are not everything. Technology and end results are. For a $20K car? I run circles around my good buddy's V8 Mercedes Benz E430 with my Corolla! Straight line, turns, and long-distance.

PS: Just as an eye opener, you should check out this link: Perfect tight circles, while power-sliding... Wow! Now that's drifting, that's handling, that's precision, that's performance, and that's affordable!
http://www.hyundaige...6A6F2383E590925

[asiafish]

WinTard said:

You mean the American Car industry isn't backed by the US Government? I'm only making a point here. Let's not get too off topic.

Its not the same. In Korea you pay between 50 and 100% "import tax" to drive a non-Korean car.

Quote

And isn't Hyundai also a huge conglomerate, Korean backed? What about Made In China?

Yup, Hyundai is huge, but Samsung is even bigger. For Hyundai group, cars are the largest product segment, while for Samsung its electronic components (transisters, LEDs and the like.

Quote

Apples are made by Foxconn, which also makes more than Apple BTW in revenues per year... But they also make everything else for Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Motorola, etc... Including the almighty aluminum cases for the MacBooks...

Yup, and Quanta and others. But they are not built on the same assembly line as a generic Asus or MSI and are not built to the same standards. Appe's tollerances are tighter, their component rejection rates are higher, and their build process is more advanced. Other premium PCs also use unique assembly lines, have higher component rejection rates and specify higher quality materials and tighter tollerances. Apple is in no way unique except that they install their own OS instead of buying it from MS, something that nobody is stopping other PC vendors from doing.

[VHMP01]

Thanks for accepting and corroborating all my points? A) Mac `Windows? users are MS loyal customers. B) If the kernel is Unix, then it should be Open Source more than Proprietary fraud. C) It?s not only breaks and tyres as you say, when it's Motherboard, Processors, Hard Drives, Media Players, etc. Would be more like Engine, Chassis, Security, Overall Performance, etc. and not only Paint Color. D) Yes China as in the more products produced, the lower prices, for better quality from Companies that sell millions more of the same products, better quality controls at lower prices, `Supply and demand?. E) Apple?s `Un-Unique? completely copied iPhone?s form factor form LG.

Sorry asiafish, you make it easier for me, I have to thank you for that.

[Evildave]

Actually, I'm a Linux user. I don't have a Mac (yet).

There's just one app left that I run in a Windoze VM - Adobe Flash CS3. If I bought a Mac, I would be using all the same software I use under Linux, and the Adobe CS3 stuff would be running natively.

OSX is UNIX based. While Apple does contribute to open source (i.e. CUPS is their contribution, among many others), they are no more 'Linux' based than Sun is Linux.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOSX
Message was edited by: smax013

[WinTard]

Come on, Apple's are made at the same exacting tolerances as all others. Six layers printed circuit motherboards, surface mount, precision manufacturing.

What about my 12 year old Asus P6NP5 Pentium Pro, reliable to this day? 24/7/365 for 12 years continuous! Zero problems. Simple $200 Asus motherboard... And that one is made in Taiwan. Which is NOT China, but an island, like Japan...

I would risk to say the World is an incestuous place...

[VHMP01]

You are making it easier too, Evildave.

?Thankfully, base ignorance can be cured by education??

??If you ever claim that OS X is 'Linux' again, then we'll know it's not ignorance, but something else that can't be cured??.

THE OS-X LINUX CONNECTION:

http://ccrma.stanfor...ccrma/OS_X.html

?Mac OS X nowadays is based on Darwin and chunks of existing open source software from a large number of sources like BSD, GNU, Mach, ... and even Linux?? Back to you, over!

[Evildave]

What? Some baseless conjecture based on how you can run Linux (another POSIX compliant OS) applications on the Mac?

Of COURSE you can port Linux apps to OSX. They're both POSIX compliant operating systems. (Something else to look up - it's a STANDARD for operating systems.)

Most things, you just use the GNU compiler and tools that makes MAC binaries with the project's make, and it just runs. Some things need a little more work. Some things need a lot.

Ideas cross-polinate. Apple engineers certainly learn from external examples. Does that mean OS X is derived from Linux?

Realistically, you may as well claim Honda is derived from a Chevrolet, because both kinds of cars have steering wheels and cup holders in more or less the same places.

[WinTard]

That's the whole point of open-source. Cross-pollination. And plagiarism! Nothing is original anymore. Not OS X. Not Mach. Not BSD. Neither is Linux.

Anybody claiming they INVENTED something, are liars. They merely perfected and polished someone else's idea.

[waldojim]

" But they are not built on the same assembly line as a generic Asus or MSI and are not built to the same standards"
you are right, not the same line at all considering that both of those are ODMS competing with foxconn

@[~128188]

" B) If the kernel is Unix, then it should be Open Source more than Proprietary fraud"
Unix is not open source. And OS-X is not UNIX based.
you guys are all going to give ma a damned aneurysm here...
OSX is based off of Nexstep. Nexstep is a variant of BSD and falls under the BSD licensing.
www.opensource.apple.com/ this site has all of the source code they are REQUIRED to have available as a condition of the BSD license.
Now then, all that withstanding, what they are charging for, is the proprietary interface. They have a custom window manager sitting on top of a fairly standard BSD kernel (minus certain security aspects) and this WM does not have to fall under the BSD license, and they have chosen not to license it that way. They can charge for that, for the extra software, etc. So long as the added software is not Linked directly against BSD licensed software or GPL licensed software.

[WinTard]

How would anybody seriously know about what standards, and manufacturing tolerances?
All that I know is this: A 2000MHZ stable memory bus, is way more precisely made than one that only supports 1033MHz. With better components, layout, and all. Performance demands precision and quality... Or else it just wouldn't work. Obviously!
It's like comparing your typical 6000rpm redline engine, to one that goes to 8650rpm. One is obviously better made...
In one Car & Driver Magazine test between Corvette ZR1 (OHC versus pushrod), Viper, Porsche, Mustang Saleem, others, and the Toyota Supra: The Supra won against all others. The Mustang engineer radioed to the pilot, "it will go faster in fourth (gear)", so the driver did, and blew the engine during the lap! At less than 5000RPM. Ahem... It's all documented. At the end the magazine concluded all the cars felt worn, except for the Supra which felt like new...
The new supra is this rebranded Lexus LF-A. A similar model would be the Nissan GTR type R to be released next year at double the price to the existing GTR. (Which was a Skyline back in 1965)...

~~~~~~~~
Beauty is more than skin deep...

[quackadilly]

Psssst.......



They use the resistors with the gold tolerance bands........very top secret info......don't tell anyone.

[waldojim]

You kinda have to be careful with that though, there have been a few companies (gigabyte was one of them I think) that have been claiming support for those speeds, even though the boards cannot actually hit them.
Toms hardware had a few of those boards at one point, and actually found that the boards that did not claim those speeds actually got better clocks than the big flashy guys claiming everything and delivering nothing.

Which kinda reminds me of a board I let go... An older MSI board - Socket A K7N2DeltaL, Nforce 2 Ultra, supposedly had a max stable clock of 400Mhz (200 real life), But I pushed my stinkin' little AthlonXP 1600+(1.4) from the 266 fsb all the way to 420 (a nice 2.2Ghz), rock solid. That was a board that claimed little, and achieved a LOT. it took me a long time to part with that. ah well, I digress...

[WinTard]

Silver is 10%, Gold is 5%, and Brown is 1% tolerance. Then you have carbon composite, or metal film types of resistors...

I remember this riddle:
"Bad Boys Ravish Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly"

|Color|Value|
|Black|0|
|Brown|1|
|Red|2|
|Orange|3|
|Yellow|4|
|Green|5|
|Blue|6|
|Violet|7|
|Gray|8|
|White|9|

Standard electronic color coding scheme, applies to resistors, capacitors, and inductors...

OOPS, sorry for revealing the Top Secret... ;)

[WinTard]

Yes, but some do, and are stable. Specifically the high-end gaming motherboards such as from Asus. They even codename them like 'Commando" etc...

Anyways, the principle remains the same. Nowadays, if Asus specs out a mobo stable to 2000MHz, I trust them. I trust Asus. They know what they are doing... And so does Gigabyte.

I've been redlining all my engines, at every occasion possible, because it is good for them. Whereas some are afraid to redline their engines because they don't trust the design.

I've never blown an engine... But operating within design specs is perfectly allright, if properly designed in the first place.

I read the new Hyundai Coupe has oil jet injectors under each piston, well so does the Corolla XRS, Civic Si, and Supra Turbo. So? LOL.

Proper design is timeless...

[WinTard]

Someday I shall make a comprehensive comparison of motherboards. In the meantime (it's 4:11AM) simply google http://images.google...F-8&sa=N&tab=wi

They look like normal motherboards to me... LOL!