[smax013]

TechieXP said:

It is so nice for someone too step up and explain the details on how upgradable Macs are.
I actully posted a picture of the inside of a Mac Pro and a Dell XPS desktop. And I asked...which one looks like it is more upgradable.
So many swore up and down the Mac Pro is just as easy to upgrade. Not only is it a warranty issue, but I was thinking of the hardware incompatibility issue. Which means if you buy a none supported video card or wifi or any other component, if OSX doesn't support it...it means you would have to find a have online to get it to work. Thus it would make it no different than install OSX on any brand of PC, and needing to hack the OS to work with said hardware. It would simply be an Apple branded Hackintosh, vs another brand.

And it is just as easy to upgrade. Sorry, but just posting a picture of each does not come close to support your apparant notion that a Mac Pro is harder to upgrade.

There is no warranty issue with the Mac Pro. It is just as upgradeable as a Dell XPS desktop (keep in mind that we are talking about accessiblitity/user installable parts). You can upgrade the optical drive, the hard drives, the memory, the expansion cards, and I believe even the processor(s)...just as you can with a Dell XPS. Considering that Dell tends to use proprietary power supplies, you likely will have about the same issues with dealing with the power supply if you wanted to. I suspect that messing with built in port will void your Dell warranty just as quickly as messing with built in ports on the Mac Pro.

Now, I will admit that are slightly less options available for user installable parts for the Mac Pro, such a graphics cards and other expansion cards. There are fewer "supported" Mac graphics cards for the Mac Pro then there would be for the Dell XPS...but it is unclear if that is due to Apple or due to lack of support by the two main graphics card chipset makers (not that I blame Nvidia and ATI...why spend money and time creating drivers, etc for the small Mac graphics card market...the Mac market is roughly 10% and considering that portion of that number that are Mac Pros means that the number of Macs out there than can accept an upgraded card, let alone whether the person WANTS an upgraded card, is rather completely insignificant).

For hard drives, memory, or optical drives, you can go with an drive that will work with the connection...just as you could with a Dell XPS. For memory, it is generally recommended to go with RAM that has been tested for use with a Mac Pro (or any Mac for that matter) as they can be a little "picky" about memory. But, the major memory companies (such as Crucial.com) do tend to test their memory with Macs before they recommend it.

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I already new the Macbook Pro did not offer a user replaceble battery...yet someone tried to say different. I even mentioned the Air having no user upgradable parts. The hard disk in the Air is smaller then a conventional laptop drive...and the Air is locked at 2GB of ram bec as you said...the ram i soldered to the mainboard. In fact everything in the Air is soldered too one board. The design is pretty...but functional is certainly questionable. Again proving as long as you can manage to work within the confines of the wall...you will be fine. I still want the Air. I didn't make it to teh Apple Store yet...I will get there Saturday.

Yes and no. The person who said different is correct and incorrect...just depends on which MacBook Pro they are talking about. The MacBook Pro has had user swappable/replaceable battery from day one. The first occurance of the integrated, non-user replaceable battery for the MacBook Pro was the last version of the 17" MacBook Pro that was introduced back at the beginning of the this year, but at that time the 15" MacBook Pro still had a user replaceable battery. It is only this past week that the 15" MacBook Pro and the "new" 13" MacBook Pro (basically a MacBook with a new name and some hardware upgrades) got the non-user replaceable battery.

But, yes, the MacBook Air is completely non-upgradeable. There are no user upgradeable/installable parts. And in fact, some are just not upgradeable period (such as the RAM...unless you want to mess with soldering/unsoldering parts on your computer's motherboard). And that is why many (even diehard, down to the bone "Mac fanbois" who live and breath everything Mac and Apple) people will not even consider purchasing a MacBook Air. But, there are plenty of people who will...especially since the VAST majority of users are NOT like you or me in the sense that they are completely not interested in opening up their computer to upgrade it, even if that "opening up" means just removing one screw for an access panel door to RAM or a hard drive let alone fully cracking open a laptop.

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If you have to totally take apart a laptop too upgrade any part of it, then that to me means it wasn't meant for you to do it. So if you flip over a laptop and there is no door for the battery or ram...then it is a locked system...and teh mfr wants you to pay them lots of money to do something you can do in 5 minutes. In fact if you go online and look for ram for the Mac...you will find most of it is just for the Mac Pro. I saw only one site selling ram for the Macbook.

Don't know where you are looking, but there are most definitely places selling RAM for ALL of the Mac models (with the exception of the MacBook Air). Considering your self admission of being "not interested in Macs" and you lack of ever owning one yourself, it is not suprising that you are unfamiliar with with were you might acquire something such as RAM for a Mac ("standard" RAM of the right specification generally will work, but it is usually recommended to purchase from someone who has tested that their RAM will work with a Mac and will guarantee that it will work or replace it...I would say that the same is true of RAM for Windows computer...I know that I only purchase from places the sell RAM that will guarantee that it will work with the system that they say it will work with whether it is a Mac or a Windows computer). It is just like me not knowing where to purchase accessories or parts for a Honda Accord...since I do not own one, I have zero interest in try to find out about them or "upgrade" one...thus, I have not clue what might or might not be available out there for it. I am sure that if you were interested in Macs or owned one, then you would likely spend sometime learning where you can purchase things like RAM for them.

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I have yet to see a laptop where replacing ra or the hard disk could possible break anything. The door to teh ram only uncovers the ram...the hard drive can be removed by using a phillips and taking off 1 or 2 screws and it slides right out. And a replacement can only be put back...ONE WAY. What could you possibly break? So for the ones who said...well maybe Apple doesn't want you to break anything...is moot. Its basically Apple wants more of your money with a poor/elegant design. Its poor in that it form over function...and its elegant bec it enhances the look. Apple could have easily made recessed doors that don't even use screws to alllow for simply upgrades like ram on a laptop.

No...it is not moot. Just because you and I are more technically savvy than most computer users and we both have never screwed up a hard drive installation does not mean that a "typical user" could not.

And that is beside the point...you pick an example of upgrading the hard drive and then slam Apple for what you claim as Apple "...wants more of your money with a poor/elegant design"...but then neglect to remember that BOTH current MacBooks and MacBook Pros have user replaceable/installable hard drives AND RAM. Thus, a MacBook and a MacBook Pro are just as upgradeable at most laptops (for most Windows laptops you can only upgrade the hard drive and RAM without voiding your warranty...just like the MacBook and MacBook Pro...yes, there are some where you can also upgrade the optical drive and maybe even access and upgrade the RAM...and even a smaller few were you might do more...but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule).

The point is that laptops are generally not very user upgradeable...you can only typically upgrade the hard drive and RAM...and this is no different for a MacBook or MacBook Pro (and yes, the exception is the MacBook Air...but I suspect that you will also be able to find some "exceptions" in the Windows world were you cannot upgrade the RAM and/or the hard drive).

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EvilDave mentioned that upgrading ra or hard disks on an All-In-One PC would be just as hard as doing so on the iMac. I beg to differ based on this...:snipped from here - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2218276,00.asp

Like the Gateway One, the XPS One is user-serviceable, with a back panel that slides open when you place the unit face down. The XPS One lacks the Gateway One's extra hard drive bay and enviable drop-in SATA installation. RAM is easy to get to in the XPS One, and there is an MXM graphics card slot with the ATI Radeon HD 2400 card in it. (MXM, which stands for Mobile PCI EXpress Module, is a mobile graphics interface more commonly seen in laptops). Upgrades beyond that point are still uncertain, since you can only get MXM graphics cards pre-installed in a system rather than from a third-party manufacturer. The rest of the internals are compact, just like they are on desktop replacement notebooks.

I am willing to bet the iMac isn't that easy.

Upgrading RAM on an iMac is easy...but upgrading anything else is a non-user installable thing and is something that most will not attempt. Thus, I have little doubt that Dell's or Gateway's is easier to upgrade.

But as someone said about user-serviceable...just because you can doesn't mean you should. However that should be for me to decide for a simple repair.
Steve @ MacWorld 97 says Apple believes in choice...I would like to know whose choice he was speaking of. Building a computer that virtually eliminates my choice to buy soe of my own parts like drives or ram and replacing them is not creating choice. Laptops typically come with consumer grade ram...suppose I want to drop in ram from OCZ or something? If my Mac cames with 5400rpm drives and I want 7200 or 10000...it should be easy to do, and it shouldn't void the warranty. Even cars which cost 20x's the cost of a computer, have user serviceable parts. If you don't want to...thgen they have guys who can fix it for you...but at least having an option for me too do it...is a plus.

You do have a choice...you can choose not to buy a Mac. There is absolutely NOTHING (other than user demand) that requires Apple (or Dell or HP or Lenovo, etc) to design their computers to be easily upgradeable. They are free to design their computers as they see fit...and if you do not like that design, then you are free to walk past it and buy the Dell or HP or whatever whose design you do like. While I personally think Apple is missing an opportunity (and at least one sale to me) by NOT having a more expandable, upgradeable mid-level desktop (i.e. a mid-level tower system that is on the same level as an iMac), they seem to be doing just fine ignoring what I believe. I also happen to believe they were stupid to no longer offer the matte screen option for a MacBook Pro and they are dumb to remove the ExpressCard slot from the 15" MacBook Pro...but I am sure that they will still do well regardless of what I think.

[TechieXP]

Gotcha...

As far as Apple removing the express card slot? maybe not to many made use of it on macs? not sure.

As far as Windows...so far the biggest use has been aircards from cell carriers and creative has made a couple Soundblaster cards...I have seen adapters to add additional usb or add firewire to a laptop that doesn't have one. There is even one to add esata. However again...maybe the problem is driver support...Apple likes to make their own drivers for hardware. With the exception of a few ATI cards where you could download a mac driver it seems its a rare occurance.

I wasn't basing Apple...I said it was a poor/elegant...I was saying it was both. Poor in that the user is less considered in teh design. Elegant in that it is still well thought out as far as making the systems look good.

As far as the Air...even as thin as it is...Apple could have still made it exactly the same and have user replaceable ram. The hdd is another issue as it is smaller than a normal laptop hdd.

I still am getting the Air tomorrow bec I have been wanting it mostly for style and appearance. But also I will get to have a Mac @ home to use for some tasks...including using Pro-Tool and Logic. However I do see they are finally releasing Pro-Tool for Windows soon.

[Evildave]

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The hard drive is NOT user-installable on the Mac Mini or MacBook Air.

Of course it is. It's just a 2.5" SATA drive. The MacBook Air drive is an equally standard 1.8" drive. It's not epoxied in or soldered down. Plug & play.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tIiSaunTWWM

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You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty.

>

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Apple's warranty states:

"This warranty does not apply...if the product has been modified without the written permission of Apple..."

Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product. Therefore, it is not necessary to obtain Apple's written permission to upgrade or expand an Apple computer. While Apple strongly recommends that you retain the services of an Apple Authorized Service Provider to perform any product upgrades or expansions, you will not void your Apple warranty if you choose to upgrade or expand your computer yourself. However, if in the course of adding an upgrade or expansion product to your computer, you damage your Apple computer (either through the installation of, or incompatibility of the upgrade or expansion product), Apple's warranty will not cover the cost of repair, or future related repairs.

Pretty clear-cut. Just don't break it.

[quackadilly]

"You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty."



But what is exactly is a "customer-installable" part? RAM, CPU, GPU, HDD, PSU.......?



I consider everything on a PC "customer-installable".....but my warranties are for individual parts, not the whole system.

[Evildave]

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EvilDave mentioned that ugrading ra or hard disks on an All-In-One PC would be just as hard as doing so on the iMac. I beg to differ based on this...:snipped from here - http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2218276,00.asp]

OF COURSE you can find exceptions to the rule. On average, I've seen plenty PC notebooks where you had to pop open hidden snap-tight doors, unscrew and remove the keyboard to get at the RAM.

From your article...

> The [Dell XPS One ($2,399 direct) easily outclasses its all-in-one competitor (and namesake), the Gateway One, and matches or surpasses the Apple iMac,

Well it BETTER be 'better', since it's a LOT more expensive than the iMac.

Oh here's the Dissassembly/Reassembly section of the service manual...
http://support.dell....20/en/index.htm
http://support.dell....sm/assembly.htm

One interesting omission: They don't have instructions for how to R&R that hard drive, once you get the back cover off. It's something every other Dell service manual contains.

Using the same sort of, uh... 'logic' I see from people here about inability to service the Mac, obviously the hard drive "can't be replaced" in the 20" Dell.

http://support.dell....20/en/index.htm

Your Mac Air will not be a 'locked' system, and the 1.8" drive is as standard a standard drive as 2.5" drives are. The battery isn't welded into the case or anything. Just screws. All replaceable with one screwdriver.

Or is that Dell a 'locked system', since you have to remove screws to get its cover off, too?

http://www.briandore...ve-upgrade.aspx

So you need suction cups and a couple of torx screwdrivers to crack the iMac case? Big deal. Not 'hard'. Installing a 'new' radio into an old car is damned hard compared to this.

So easy a musician managed it. :p
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8Xs_1QCyPAg

[Evildave]

If it has screws/nuts and sockets, it's user replaceable. If you need a dremel, dykes, solder sucker, hacksaw, soldering iron, or some combination of these or other tools, it's not.

Just how hard a concept is this to understand? How many people try to replace unsocketed chips on a motherboard or an expansion card on a PC? I mean in the last ten years, obviously. You want hard? Upgrade the RAM on an Atari ST. That took HOURS with a solder sucker just to clear the holes before I could solder in all the chips and discreet parts. Back in the bad old days, if I wanted a serial port on my Ohio Scientific C1P computer, I needed to solder one in! And I did. We still had TV sets with tubes in 'em!

Lay upside down sprawled over both front seats of a car with your head under a dashboard cutting metal to install a #^&* radio without 'knobs', then solder all the wiring up, route the wires into doors, and trunk, cut more metal to install speakers. And that's the lightest of chores on an old car or truck. Then tell me how 'hard' this tidy little Mac install is.

People just don't have any mad handyman skills. Some of them don't even have Lego skills. Neither of my own little brothers can turn a wench or screwdriver to save their lives. Mostly it's basic timidity. I replaced and/or repaired four toilets this week, too. Oh deary-dear! It's 'icky'!

It's not closed. It's not locked.

If you don't like your 1.8" drive in your Mac Air, replace it. They're not cheap, but they are available. If you need a new battery, order it and put it in. Sure, it's more complicated than a cordless drill battery, but EVEN THAT is 'too complicated' for some people.

[smax013]

TechieXP said:

Gotcha...

As far as Apple removing the express card slot? maybe not to many made use of it on macs? not sure.

That is the excuse they used combined with lots of people would use a SD card reader...so they took out the ExpressCard slot and put in a SD card reader. According to Apple, less than 10% of MacBook Pro users use the ExpressCard slot.

I have no problem in general with that type of thinking. And I certainly don't disagree with the 10% number...if anything I would say it is WAY less than 10%. And I suspect that number is similar for Windows laptop users.

My problem is that I see it as taking the flexibility away from those 10% of the users to accomplish something that you could already do with an ExpressCard slot. You can get SD card reader ExpressCards that will "mount" flush with the MacBook Pro case (I know...I have one) which in essence turn the ExpressCard slot into the same SD card reader that they just switched (i.e. if you wanted a SD card reader, just slide in the ExpressCard and leave there)...and it will actually read more than SD cards. So, Apple could have accomplished the same goal by just including a SD card reader ExpressCard with each 15" MacBook Pro if they were trying to satisfy more people...and then they would not have to hose the less than 10% who use the ExpressCard slot for other things (such as I do...I also have an eSATA ExpressCard).

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As far as Windows...so far the biggest use has been aircards from cell carriers and creative has made a couple Soundblaster cards...I have seen adapters to add additional usb or add firewire to a laptop that doesn't have one. There is even one to add esata. However again...maybe the problem is driver support...Apple likes to make their own drivers for hardware. With the exception of a few ATI cards where you could download a mac driver it seems its a rare occurance.

There are Firewire, USB, eSATA, video adapters, mobile broadband (aka aircards), various types of flash media readers, etc that work for the Mac. And generally no additional drivers are needed...just plug it in and go to town...at least for the Firewire, USB, and eSATA ports cards and card reader cards.

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I wasn't basing Apple...I said it was a poor/elegant...I was saying it was both. Poor in that the user is less considered in teh design. Elegant in that it is still well thought out as far as making the systems look good.

I will not disagree that Apple seems to sometimes be too focused on form over function. The MacBook Air is somewhat along that line. The one USB port is just dumb. I look at it from the aspect of using external bus powered drives with it. Since it does not have a Firewire port, I have to use a USB bus powered drive. This can present some challenges typically on Macs. For whatever reason, Apple tends to have lower power to their USB ports. As a result, USB bus powered drives typically need two USB ports to work...or an external power adapter...as typically the USB port on a Mac will not supply enough power to the drive through one port. But, since a MacBook Air only has one USB port, you could be hosed. Now, it is possible that Apple "jacked" up the power some on that one port to deal with this issue. But that is not the only reason. Since there is no ethernet port, you can only get ethernet by using a USB ethernet adapter. So...what if you are in a hotel that only has a wired connection but you also want to use your flash drive or external bus powered USB drive? Apple would say..."use a USB hub"...but that is something else I have to carry with me...kind of defeats the purposed of having a 3 lb, ultra thin laptop, eh?

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As far as the Air...even as thin as it is...Apple could have still made it exactly the same and have user replaceable ram.

Says you. That is merely your opinion. And since neither you or I designed (or I suspect have cracked open) the MacBook Air, neither of us can say one way or another. I suspect that they did it for a reason...and that reason was to get it to fit. Putting in RAM sockets and doors to access the RAM takes up space. And a MacBook Air does not have much space to play with.

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The hdd is another issue as it is smaller than a normal laptop hdd.

It is a 1.8" drive...same type as what goes in an iPod Classic (and I would assume the hard drive based Zune). And to make it user-installable (i.e. creating a "bay" for it to mount it and an access door to get to it) would take up space again...likely space that they could not spare and get the MacBook Air to where it is now.

[quote]
I still am getting the Air tomorrow bec I have been wanting it mostly for style and appearance. But also I will get to have a Mac @ home to use for some tasks...including using Pro-Tool and Logic. However I do see they are finally releasing Pro-Tool for Windows soon.

[smax013]

Evildave said:

> The hard drive is NOT user-installable on the Mac Mini or MacBook Air.

Of course it is. It's just a 2.5" SATA drive. The MacBook Air drive is an equally standard 1.8" drive. It's not epoxied in or soldered down. Plug & play.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tIiSaunTWWM

Never said it could not be physically done. I said it would void your warranty...and it will. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini according to Apple have NO, ZERO, NADA, ZIPPOLA user-installable parts...not the RAM...and not the hard drive.

By all means, crack it open and upgrade it...but be prepare for Apple to tell you to go "stuff it" if you take it in for warranty work.

To my knowledge, Apple defines user-installable by what they tell you that you can install in the manuals. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini have no instructions in their manuals for installing RAM or hard drives. The MacBook and MacBook Pro both have instructions for installing a hard drive and RAM. The older MacBook Pro only had instructions for installing RAM, but not for the hard drive...and that was because upgrade the hard drive on the older versions of the MacBook Pro would void that warranty as the hard drive was NOT a user-installable item. It is WELL documented.

Now, I will say again...you might be able to do and Apple would never notice and thus still honor the warranty, but it is a risk. And that is why it is recommended to REMOVE the non-user-installable item that you installed and put the original back in prior to taking it in for warranty work.

And while the video is nice, big deal. I can point you to the instructions I used to upgrade my non-user-installable hard drive on my MacBook Pro to upgrade my drive TWICE. And I could point you to the instructions that I will use to upgrade my non-user-installable wireless card. Or instructions on how I upgraded my non-user-installable battery for my 3rd generation iPod. And of those three examples, the first two only require a two screw drivers (one phillips and one torx) to crack everything open.

The point is that it does not matter one bit what you consider user-installable...it only matters what Apple defines as user-installable.

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> You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty.
>
> Apple's warranty states:
>
> "This warranty does not apply...if the product has been modified without the written permission of Apple..."
>
> Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product. Therefore, it is not necessary to obtain Apple's written permission to upgrade or expand an Apple computer. While Apple strongly recommends that you retain the services of an Apple Authorized Service Provider to perform any product upgrades or expansions, you will not void your Apple warranty if you choose to upgrade or expand your computer yourself. However, if in the course of adding an upgrade or expansion product to your computer, you damage your Apple computer (either through the installation of, or incompatibility of the upgrade or expansion product), Apple's warranty will not cover the cost of repair, or future related repairs.

Pretty clear-cut. Just don't break it.

Yes...AND it must be user-installable as Apple defines it.

[asiafish]

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Never said it could not be physically done. I said it would void your warranty...and it will. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini according to Apple have NO, ZERO, NADA, ZIPPOLA user-installable parts...not the RAM...and not the hard drive.

Mac Mini RAM and hard drive are difficult to reach, but doing so does NOT void the warranty. Air may be a different story, but the Mini is fair game for RAM or drive upgrades.

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By all means, crack it open and upgrade it...but be prepare for Apple to tell you to go "stuff it" if you take it in for warranty work.

To my knowledge, Apple defines user-installable by what they tell you that you can install in the manuals. The MacBook Air and Mac Mini have no instructions in their manuals for installing RAM or hard drives. The MacBook and MacBook Pro both have instructions for installing a hard drive and RAM. The older MacBook Pro only had instructions for installing RAM, but not for the hard drive...and that was because upgrade the hard drive on the older versions of the MacBook Pro would void that warranty as the hard drive was NOT a user-installable item. It is WELL documented.

Apple doesn't tell you how to upgrade the RAM in the manual, but does not say anywhere that doing so will void your warranty.

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA23969

Apple says that installing additional memory "should" be done at an Apple retail store or authorized service provider because it isn't easy to get in there, but nowhere does this article, on Apple's own website, say that memory is not upgradable or that doing so will void your warranty.

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Now, I will say again...you might be able to do and Apple would never notice and thus still honor the warranty, but it is a risk. And that is why it is recommended to REMOVE the non-user-installable item that you installed and put the original back in prior to taking it in for warranty work.

No, you will only void your warranty if you break something while you are in there. The same applies to any computer, its just easier to break something because it is so hard to open.

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And while the video is nice, big deal. I can point you to the instructions I used to upgrade my non-user-installable hard drive on my MacBook Pro to upgrade my drive TWICE. And I could point you to the instructions that I will use to upgrade my non-user-installable wireless card. Or instructions on how I upgraded my non-user-installable battery for my 3rd generation iPod. And of those three examples, the first two only require a two screw drivers (one phillips and one torx) to crack everything open.

MacBook Pro since last year is among the easiest to upgrade computers out there. Even the ones with sealed batteries still have removable back panels that make it extremely easy to upgrade RAM, hard drive and even optical drive, if you so desire.

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The point is that it does not matter one bit what you consider user-installable...it only matters what Apple defines as user-installable.

And Apple defines user upgradable the same way just about every other company does. No difference whatsoever.
>
> > You may install memory (RAM, VRAM), and other customer-installable parts without voiding your Apple warranty.
> >
> > Apple's warranty states:
> >
> > "This warranty does not apply...if the product has been modified without the written permission of Apple..."
> >
> > Adding memory (DRAM, VRAM) or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product. Therefore, it is not necessary to obtain Apple's written permission to upgrade or expand an Apple computer. While Apple strongly recommends that you retain the services of an Apple Authorized Service Provider to perform any product upgrades or expansions, you will not void your Apple warranty if you choose to upgrade or expand your computer yourself. However, if in the course of adding an upgrade or expansion product to your computer, you damage your Apple computer (either through the installation of, or incompatibility of the upgrade or expansion product), Apple's warranty will not cover the cost of repair, or future related repairs.
>
> Pretty clear-cut. Just don't break it.

Yes...AND it must be user-installable as Apple defines it.

Which is pretty much the same as on any brand-name PC. RAM, hard drive, optical drive, and in some cases even the processor, and no, not only the Mac Pro. Mac Mini (Intel models) have socketed processors that are easily upgradable, and Apple makes no mention of them not being user upgradable or voiding your warranty, unless you screw it up. Kind of the same as Lenovo, which uses socketed processors on most ThinkPads, and may or may not void your warranty if you break it.

The fact is, on a name brand computer, RAM and hard drive are fair game, anything else and you take your chances. Easy solution, put the original parts back if you need to send it for warranty repair.

[quackadilly]

There's a lot of things in a computer that would not be easy enough for 95% of the world population to install without breaking something.



Going by the nuts and bolts rule, you can install new screens, you can replace the factory wireless card, keyboards......







What I'm getting at is their guideline has no real boundaries. The line is so fuzzy, Apple has the chance to refuse your repair request if you open it for anything. Just because someone interprets the rule as "nuts and bolts" does not mean that Apple defines it the same way.

[TechieXP]

That model of the Dell XPS One was a quadcore model. Something that still isn't an option on the iMac.
Any computer that had limited...or laptop-like upgrade ability should offer several options for speed...
That computer starts at less then the cost of an iMac. :-)

[TechieXP]

TechieXP wrote:
Gotcha...

As far as Apple removing the express card slot? maybe not to many made use of it on macs? not sure.
That is the excuse they used combined with lots of people would use a SD card reader...so they took out the ExpressCard slot and put in a SD card reader. According to Apple, less than 10% of MacBook Pro users use the ExpressCard slot.

I have no problem in general with that type of thinking. And I certainly don't disagree with the 10% number...if anything I would say it is WAY less than 10%. And I suspect that number is similar for Windows laptop users.

My problem is that I see it as taking the flexibility away from those 10% of the users to accomplish something that you could already do with an ExpressCard slot. You can get SD card reader ExpressCards that will "mount" flush with the MacBook Pro case (I know...I have one) which in essence turn the ExpressCard slot into the same SD card reader that they just switched (i.e. if you wanted a SD card reader, just slide in the ExpressCard and leave there)...and it will actually read more than SD cards. So, Apple could have accomplished the same goal by just including a SD card reader ExpressCard with each 15" MacBook Pro if they were trying to satisfy more people...and then they would not have to hose the less than 10% who use the ExpressCard slot for other things (such as I do...I also have an eSATA ExpressCard).



As far as Windows...so far the biggest use has been aircards from cell carriers and creative has made a couple Soundblaster cards...I have seen adapters to add additional usb or add firewire to a laptop that doesn't have one. There is even one to add esata. However again...maybe the problem is driver support...Apple likes to make their own drivers for hardware. With the exception of a few ATI cards where you could download a mac driver it seems its a rare occurance.

There are Firewire, USB, eSATA, video adapters, mobile broadband (aka aircards), various types of flash media readers, etc that work for the Mac. And generally no additional drivers are needed...just plug it in and go to town...at least for the Firewire, USB, and eSATA ports cards and card reader cards.


I wasn't basing Apple...I said it was a poor/elegant...I was saying it was both. Poor in that the user is less considered in teh design. Elegant in that it is still well thought out as far as making the systems look good.
I will not disagree that Apple seems to sometimes be too focused on form over function. The MacBook Air is somewhat along that line. The one USB port is just dumb. I look at it from the aspect of using external bus powered drives with it. Since it does not have a Firewire port, I have to use a USB bus powered drive. This can present some challenges typically on Macs. For whatever reason, Apple tends to have lower power to their USB ports. As a result, USB bus powered drives typically need two USB ports to work...or an external power adapter...as typically the USB port on a Mac will not supply enough power to the drive through one port. But, since a MacBook Air only has one USB port, you could be hosed. Now, it is possible that Apple "jacked" up the power some on that one port to deal with this issue. But that is not the only reason. Since there is no ethernet port, you can only get ethernet by using a USB ethernet adapter. So...what if you are in a hotel that only has a wired connection but you also want to use your flash drive or external bus powered USB drive? Apple would say..."use a USB hub"...but that is something else I have to carry with me...kind of defeats the purposed of having a 3 lb, ultra thin laptop, eh?



As far as the Air...even as thin as it is...Apple could have still made it exactly the same and have user replaceable ram.
Says you. That is merely your opinion. And since neither you or I designed (or I suspect have cracked open) the MacBook Air, neither of us can say one way or another. I suspect that they did it for a reason...and that reason was to get it to fit. Putting in RAM sockets and doors to access the RAM takes up space. And a MacBook Air does not have much space to play with.


The hdd is another issue as it is smaller than a normal laptop hdd.
It is a 1.8" drive...same type as what goes in an iPod Classic (and I would assume the hard drive based Zune). And to make it user-installable (i.e. creating a "bay" for it to mount it and an access door to get to it) would take up space again...likely space that they could not spare and get the MacBook Air to where it is now.



I still am getting the Air tomorrow bec I have been wanting it mostly for style and appearance. But also I will get to have a Mac @ home to use for some tasks...including using Pro-Tool and Logic. However I do see they are finally releasing Pro-Tool for Windows soon.



I AGREE!

[rgreen4]

Everything that needed to be said has been said in the hundreds of posts in this topic. The postings are repetitive when they are on topic. This Dead Horse has been beaten and beaten until it is simply a pile of dust. This thread is locked.