[asiafish]

rgreen4 said:

It is not a glitch. It is a documented feature that was covered in many forums during the VIsta Beta stage. In earlier editions of Windows (XP and before) you could also do a clean install (or bare metal install as WinTard calls it) by starting from the CD (diskette for Win95) and then when asked, insert the install disc of the previous version of Windows. However, late in the cycle of XP, almost all manufacturers ceased providing install discs in favor of the recovery partition. MS then had to come up with a techniqe to to a clean install by booting from the DVD, while still doing an upgrade by running the DVD from within Windows.

Thats very well and nice, but with my retail upgrade DVD it is impossible to enter the serial number that came with it and do a clean install. If you try to install to a bare drive it will NOT prompt you for a Windows installation or CD, but rather just tell you that clean install is not supported for this upgrade edition.

Sorry, but that sucks, and the only work around is to install once without any code at all, then "upgrade" that bare install with the upgrade serial number. You can't even add the upgrade serial number to the bare install at activation as it will still give the "clean install unsupported" error.

I think this just sucks, you should be able to do a clean (meaning reliable) install so long as you can prove that you own a qualifying version. With my Vista upgrade DVD (retail) you cannot.

I had to hunt around the internet for the upgrade a bare install on top of itself approach in order to use my Vista serial number at all, as I refuse to trust any data to an upgrade over an older OS, Mac or Windows.

[TechieXP]

here is a link to the details of the glitch:

http://apcmag.com/vistaupgradedvdcanbetrickedintoinstallingasafullinstall_whoops.htm

if you google the key words lots of sites talked about it.

[asiafish]

TechieXP said:

The glitch I was speaking of, was the fact you could use the Vista Upgrade DVD an install a full version of Vista onto a formatted HDD. No previous oS installed...no need to insert a previous DVD or CD for earlier versions of Windows.

The problem is that even if you DO own a previous version and have the install DVD handy, the upgrade disk wouldn't allow a clean install, but ONLY an upgrade on top of the older OS version.

Not much use if you like a reliable and fast PC.

[quackadilly]

Wow....this thread is kinda off topic.....



anyways, If I had $1000 to blow on a laptop, I'd still get a Windows computer. No question.

NO. I don't care about slot loading drives.

NO. I don't care about a flashy white case.

NO. I don't care about aluminum frames.

NO. I don't care about size and weight.

And NO. I don't I don't want to over pay for a computer.



I'll stick with what works for me.

[asiafish]

quackadilly said:

Wow....this thread is kinda off topic.....





anyways, If I had $1000 to blow on a laptop, I'd still get a Windows computer. No question.


NO. I don't care about slot loading drives.


NO. I don't care about a flashy white case.


NO. I don't care about aluminum frames.


NO. I don't care about size and weight.


And NO. I don't I don't want to over pay for a computer.





I'll stick with what works for me.

For $1,000 (if I had to buy new) I would get a base model ThinkPad T400 or a MacBook White. Nothing else at that price limit (other than used) has the size, weight, battery life and power than I demand in a tasteful and durable business-grade laptop.

Of course, with such a low price limit, I would ONLY look at used, and could get a very high-end ThinkPad or MacBook Pro from two-years-ago that will be better than any of the cheap consumer stuff.

[quackadilly]

Buying used might not be such a bad idea. If you can guarantee that it will be a valid licence or if you have an extra OS, that'd be the way to go.

[rgreen4]

Asiafish and TechieXP -

Once again - IT IS NOT A GLITCH! It is a feature.

For the past 4 years, manufactured machines have been shipped with recovery partitions, not install discs. There fore the only way to do a clean install with the upgrade media is to boot from the Vista (and most likely Win7 as well) upgrade disc and install it without the COA entered. This in effect gives you a 30 day "trial" version. You then boot the machine from the HD, cycle the optical drive and install it as an upgrade from within Windows.

The full process was described in Paul Thurott's Super Site for Windows when Vista was in the RC stage. For those griping about installing it twice I would point out that it took me 25 minutes each time to install Vista, but it takes 60+ minutes to go through 1 install of XP, so it works out about the same.

Here is the link to Paul's article.

If it were a glitch, and MS was smart, they would have fixed it in the RC, RTM, SP1 or SP2. Since it is still there and they are fully aware of it from the beginning, it must be a feature.

[bub9001]

If I looked at a room full of windows users and said that statement "These prices are in effect until July 11th". Do you really think that they would come to a 100% understanding? If you don't say something, does that mean that everyone knows what you mean? You can try and belittle as many Mac users as you want. But the fact is most Mac users are Windows users too. There isn't a hole lot of PC users that use Mac. So I doubt that your "PC friends" have anymore of a clue then most Mac users. I have been following this blog since day one, I have been beta testing Windows 7 since Feb of this year. I was once like you, belittling as many Mac user as possiable. The fact is I saw the light, Mac users are more well informed then most PC users because of the fact I have stated above. Yes I will pay for Windows 7, so I can run it on my Mac. When it comes down to it PC's and Mac's are like tools. Just like some mechnics use Craftsman, and others use Snap-on. Both do the job, but the chnic nows which one works best for him or her.

[TechieXP]

Maybe it is bec I had the earlier batches that had the glitch that allow me to use an upgrade cd and do a full install.
I even found ways to fool XP as well. Most people don't know that the full, upgrade and OEM are all exactly the same except for a couple of files. In XP one in particular was a text file that all you had to do was change a single line of code and you could fool the CD into excepting the key for one of the other versions. In other words, I could use an upgrade disk, change the code...reburn the disk and make it install as the full version. Then once you get to the desktop you have to activate it with the original key.

Another trick I found was with Windows ME that terrible OS. There are 2 files inside one of the cabs that if you extracted it to the root of the CD and reburn it, would do a full install no matter what type full or upgrade and would bypass the need to enter a CD key at all.

Anyway sorry for getting off topic :-)

@Quack...yes this thread has gone on for a while. I think the point has been well established that $1000 gets you ore when you buy a Windows PC. However it was nice to see for the first time in history that I can recall, Apple actually dropped the prices on their computers. They are still a bit high thoigh for my wallet. But I do have an Air now thanks to teh price reduction and one of my clients willing to trade paying the difference in cost for work he needed done to his web site. I liked looking at it for about a week and then the excitement pretty much died after that. It was just like any other pc to me. Maybe bec glitz and glamour that are based on looks never really hit me hard as I prefer a pc that is fast and has high specs. But its a very nice PC and I even broke my own rule. I had asked once to many, why install Windows on a Mac? Seems to defeat the purpose of getting one. As the reasoning is assumed you bought a Mac to get awy from Windows. I bought a Mac bec there were 3 progras I really wanted and they were only avail for teh Mac. One is coming to Windows soon. However I ended up installing Windows 7 on it simply bec beyond teh other usage...I wouldn't have been using it hardly at all.

[villanim]

"Do you really think that they would come to a 100% understanding? If you don't say something, does that mean that everyone knows what you mean? " Yes I Do, at least in the Windows community. That is why you need Justin Long to misinform everyone how great Macs are and how totally unstable and uncool Windows PC's are.

"Mac users are more well informed then most PC users because of the fact I have stated above" Why, because Justin Long and Steve Jobs say you are? Look at the Mac ads and how they portray your systems, it is advertised as computing for morons as you do not have to be intelligent to run a Mac, but you need an advanced degree to use Windows. That how Mac advertising comes across, so that says volumes about Mac users as well (true or not). Mac users are not more informed, even about their own systems, I happen to own both, the last Mac I purchased was a PowerMac G5. To bad Jobs screws you on replacements parts once the system is out of warranty, $300 for a replacement superdrive (DVD Burner in Windows speak) while a Windows comparable part is $35 off the shelf. Windows hardware components are also more reliable and last longer than those made for a Mac. But we are getting off subject here. I will upgrade my Vista to Windows 7 once I receive it from Microsoft through my Action Pack subscription (best $300 a year I ever spent)

[TechieXP]

Haha...I would like to meet a Mac user who is more inform than any PC users. Macs users pride themselves on the fact that Macs have less problems vs a Windows PC. Which is why they don't know anything about a PC. What makes you typical learn something internal about any PC? Is when it breaks. And they ALL do. The greatest thing about a Windows PC is I have way more cheap options for repair...including doing it myself. Mac fan answer by saying, well we just simply take them bec to Apple just like you go back to the mfr. OK. Not really! See misinformed. Sending a system back to the MFR is usually last resort...not a first and only resort. HUGE DIFFERENCE. We have options...if it breaks we can go buy a sufficient or equal or better replacement. YOU CAN'T WITH A MAC. We have options to go to ANY authorized repair place, or if out of warranty that opens the door to go to any computer repair place...again NOT SO WITH Macs. Even tho Macs are just PC's by name and in name only, no everyone can repair them. One reason is the same issue wit the original IBM pc's...proprietary parts that cost more money to produce bec they have limited quantities. It reminds me of when I had my Geo Prism when it first came out. I found out when it broke...it was nothing more than a cosmetically changed Toyota Corolla and the parts were limited and it cost me double for parts that I had to wait for to be ordered from overseas. That is the reason I don't want to buy a foreign car...

Mac users don't know any more about computers then Windows users...in fact I dare to say it is more like equal to the average user...which isn't saying much. Bec average users don't know squat...

When I was a bike messenger here in Chicago when I was laid off from a previous job...I spent hrs inside our Apple Store. And I listen to the questions being asked. The questions to me appear dumb simply bec I know the answer. But then I realize out of fairness I was that way once too. What I be waiting for is the answer. I can't even count how many times I listen to what they call Mac-Genius answer technical questions. They sound like they are reading a script...just like Dell CSR's. I love seeing the stone look on their faces when they are asked something they can't answer. Once I answered the question for the guy. The lady who was inquiring about the 13 inch Macbook. The question was simple....she asked...how could she transfer several files from her PC to the Mac without using a flash drive or any external drive. He said there was no other way....and that it was the easiest....Do I hear a buzzer!!! Wrong answer...I agree it is the easiest way...but not the only way. So I answered. There is a way however it is more complicated then using a flash drive or external drive. She said she asked that bec her PC USB ports were dead and she didn't want to pay someone lots of money to remove the drive and move the data. I asked her if she knew how to share a folder in Windows...she answered yes. I told her she can go to Best Buy or Radioshack and buy what is called a crossover cable and simply assign an IP to the Windows PC and just hook the Mac to it and follow a few simple steps. Problem solved I wrote the steps down and she was very happy and she ended up purchasing the larger Macbook Pro instead. So much for Mac-Genius'.

When it comes to computers the only smart ones are those who have to fix them. Anyone else is a standard user who won't know anything about a computer. Bec of the way Apple designs their computers, unless you were a previous Windows user you will probably know nothing about a computer at all. People who fix things in any said industry will know more than anyone else...or those who have taken the time to learn how to fix things.

Its like a car, if they never broke you would know nothing more about the than what everyone knows...how to open the door, crank it up, put it in drive and go. If you never fixed a flat and never watched it done...how would you know what to do unless you read the instructions. I find it so funny that crash are one of the oldest inventions and there are people to this day who can't change a flat tire and put on a spare. They rather call roadside assistance and wait for hours for someone to show up...or hope a friendly pulls over and offer help.

And you made a great point...it is amazing how Apple charges so much money for devices that are way cheaper...even for them. The Superdrive at $300? The only difference of it to any other DVD Dual Layer driver is it is a slot loader. Everything else is the same as far as how it function compared to any other drive. To show how misinformed ppl are...they really think that Apple has something different and thus $300 is a fair price.

Apple is to me the best proof of how ppl are taken more creativity than pure facts. All you have to do is use creative words, use creative music and use creative designs and people will fall head over heals for it. Iphone is poof of that, IPod itself was a very good idea...iphone beyond its looks is not....


The fact that Macs now use the exact same hardware as any brand of PC shows how people are still misinformed. They still believe Apple makes the hardware different..when they do not.

If Apple could sales as many computers as Dell or HP does...they could afford to make every computer out of aluminum...it would be to expensive and cost would always be higher. It cost ore to produce plastic...but plastic is more avail to use. Thus bringing cost down.Apple being in a niche market can afford too spend a lil extra to make a prettier computer...but prettier isn't better...its the same stuff in a fancy case.

Based on this article...$1000 or less simply get you a computer that will do what you need. It won't cost you and arm and a leg...you have options for ones that look cheap or are pretty as well. You will have a computer that last as long as you need it too as long as you take PROPER care of it.

[myloginname]

techie, that is exactly wat i think about apple pcs, or for that matter their products

[SEOcopy]

lolol very well said! B-)

[artzy65]

"I have been here since the beginning, and it has been interesting to say the least."
Coincidentally I've been here since April 1st as well but ceased posting since mid-June simply because I was spending too much time here and the arguments had long since become redundant anyway. Yeah, there was some comical trash talk between asiafish and techiexp and a few others as you probably noticed.

Message was edited by: artzy65

[TechieXP]

Its good to see you back.
It did get a bit intense for a while.
But I enjoyed it and I learned quite a few things.

[TechieXP]

LOL

Just for the record I wasn't saying Apple doesn't make good hardware..bec the hardware is very nice. Apple obviously pays attention to physical details. But pretty thing usually come at a cost and it isn't just the price tag.

I was born in 69 and I was able to see things from early on. When Apple had the advantage they simply didn't know what to really do with what they had. They were so busy being stingy that they missed out on the whole thing. I found it amazing when Steve said Xerox didn't know what they had. The PARC engineers did, but the owners didn't know squat. Steve got lucky and had a platform that people want to develop for bec it was the only one basically and they themselves could have owned the PC industry. They had a 5 year head-start on MSFT which would have been ore than sufficient if they were smart. Apple knew what they had, but didn't appreciate the value of what they could have had.

Bill Gates saw nothing but green and the best way to get all that green is to make it avail to as many people as you can. Windows provide the same ease of use at a lower cost and had more software. Something that has never changed in 40 years. Any business that choose Macs as there platform have done well with it and Apple has a very loyal following and they will remain in this industry for a while.

When Apple had their own hardware using PowerPC or Motorola, and they claimed their hardware was better I still beg to differ. No one was writing for it much and no other industry was jumping on it either as far as hardware. Proprietary hardware had never been successful on a large scale which is why MSFT wanted so badly to get away from IBM. The rest is history that will remain unchanged for the foreseeable future. Even if Apple at this point drop the cost of the Mac to the same cost as a PC, it would matter. The lack of software and hardware support will keep them niche. That's Apple's fault...not MSFT's.

My first computer was an Apple II, and I enjoyed coding simply games and playing with code. But it was nothing more than a kids toy. The Apple IIGS was a much better deal and Apple should have made it into something better than creating the Mac. Apple could have built up something great just liek they did with iPod. They made a great device and they evolve it into Touch and then iPhone and users have stuck with it. When Apple dropped support with Apple II, down went Apple IMHO. There was an article here in PCW that show'd the history of Apple's hardware. It has always been expensive and offered little to no benefit over a Windows PC. Even when Steve developed the NextStep OS which was very nice, the hardware was simply still too expensive. However some businesses still use that OS today.

We bash MSFT a lot bec we feel for the money they have we should have better stuff. And I do agree. But MSFT has a lot of money bec of how they did business...but having more money doesn't mean innovation happens faster...it should mean the quality of what you get is better when it comes. As many say MSFT just gets complacent bec they don't have a huge level of competition...After the issues with Vista, and FF pushing at IE..as you see MSFT got on their feet rather quickly and having money means no one is going to get to far ahead before they can come back and counter. And even with Vista's issues, OSX managed to get 1% or 2% more additional users....that isn't much of a gain.

Yet its funny how people are so happy that Apple market increase 300%...well yeah as far as numbers...but those numbers are small when you are comparing them to something else. Those numbers means, Apple went from selling 1 million Macs per quarter too 2.5 million. That is still small when both Dell and HP do about 15 million or more sales per quarter. If Dell was to increase sales 300% Apple would be out of business. Big difference.


It is estimated MSFT has 890 million known customers and probably close too 1/2 that unknown more based on pirates. There are 1 billion people in China's largest city...if 1/2 of them are software pirates, look how many more users they have. And MSFT sales only software which is cheaper to produce so thus they have less overhead compared to Apple which is producing hardware and software. Apple's nu,bers are great for them...but they are barely denting anyone else.