[rkinne01]

I use Linux and Windows simply due to the fact that I can control what goes into my machines. I perfer to plan and build my computers to my needs and specifications, not someone else's. I would love to try OSX but, Apple in its infinite wisdom, has decided that I can only install its OS on machines they approve of, which means I'll be sticking with Linux and Windows for the time being.

I'm also weary to use OSX based upon the I-Phone Apps store debacle, seems that Apple doesn't play nicely with others.

Price is another consideration for me. If I am paying $1500 for a new computer I want the best bang for the buck which means, right now anyway, going with Windows or Linux based machines.

Finally before I get flamed; I can't say one way or another if OSX is good or not. If Apple would release the OSX shackles, I'd love to give it a whirl, but for now I'm left out in the cold.

[asiafish]

The Ideapad is NOT a 13" laptop. Believe it or not, 15.4" laptops with WXGA (1280X800) resolution are considerably cheaper, not to mention bigger and heavier than 13" WXGA laptops. THAT is why the Ideapad shouldn't be compared to the MacBook.

[WinTard]

asiafish said:

First off, the $1000 price point was about 13" laptops, not desktops. $1000 desktops are a whole different animal, and except for the all-in-one iMac represent an area where Apple chooses not to compete at all. There is a gaping hole in the Apple desktop lineup between the Mini (a boutique machine designed for those who value silence and size more than performance) and the Mac Pro, which unlike the desktop you built using high-end consumer processors (i7), runs MUCH more expensive SERVER grade Xeon processors. Performance is comparable for many tasks, but speed isn't the only factor that went into Apple's (or Dell's, or IBM's) specification of a server-grade processor.

It is easy to compare prices in an area where Apple doesn't compete and say Apple is too expensive. Its like comparing economy cars and complaining that the BMW 128i (their cheapest car) is overpriced because the Kia Rio will get better gas mileage and seat 5 instead of 4. They are aimed at completely different consumers and serve a completely different purpose.

Comparing the $1000 laptops, the MacBook offered lower specs in terms of hard drive and ram for the same price. The nVidia integrated graphics are vastly superior to the Intel integrated graphics on one Windows machine, and inferior to the nVidia discreet graphics on the other. All of the machines were within $100 of one another, and all were within 1/2 pound of one another. The review said nothing about thickness or design. How much is a slot-loading optical drive worth compared to a tray loading optical drive? both have advantages, tray is cheaper, which do you want? How does the build quality compare? Which OS version comes with the Windows machines? Is it home premium instead of business or ultimate? This doesn't matter if you plan to use it at home, but what if you want to connect to a domain? OS X can be bound to an active directory domain with little effort, but home versions of Windows cannot.

How much is MS Works worth? How much is iLife worth? Is Works good enough for the PC user or do you need a full copy of Office? Is the $79 iWork package good enough for the Mac user, or again is a full copy of Office needed? Can either user get bye with a free office suite, which incidentally is the same price (free) on both platforms?

Now instead of comparing in a market where Apple doesn't compete at all like $1000 tower systems or netbooks. Look at $1300 laptops, $1500 all-in-one desktops, $2000 laptops, but stick to a market in which Apple actually competes, and the prices are comparable for retail Macs and retail systems by first-tier venders. Do it yourself is usually cheaper and with more choices, but of course you don't get the (legal) choice of OS X as your OS. If you don't care about running OS X then its not an issue to be considered, but if you insist on OS X then it immediately disqualifies any non-Apple hardware.

First, I'd like you to know I think I understand your perspective asiafish. I am not looking to perpetuate a futile debate. I believe those who choose Apple have their valid reasons, as much as those who choose other brands. So let's not defend the pros / cons of one brand versus another.

My point is that in term of value, in the end Apple is a mere PC, following PC standards, and not the other way around; It is built from the same electronic parts. There seems to be a bone of contention on that point, but personally I shall not participate into the FUD that Apple parts are any different than other generic industry standard components, based on my extensive experience in the electronic industry. Others may very well choose what they believe, and I respect that. It is however my prerogative to freely post my sincere beliefs as much as others. I do not concern myself with the type or classification of system, laptop, or not instead focusing onto a single issue: value. Value is directly related to costs. So in your statement that the Apple Mac Pro runs MUCH more expensive SERVER grade XEON processors, I must point out that the server class XEON is actually technologically inferior to the new desktop class i7 920 processor. And in terms of costs a simple froogle search returns:

>

>

And the actual difference in price isn't that great.

I'm skipping superfluous areas of discussions, my second point specifically concerns the desktop portion, and not any kind of desktop but the absolute top-of-the-line desktop class of PC, regardless of pricing. There again, I've demonstrated the superior value of generic non-branded PC components over what is available from Apple.

~~~~~~~~~~
Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress, and working together is success.
~ Henry Ford, 1863-1947

Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress.
~ Mahatma Gandhi

Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning.
~ Benjamin Franklin

The perfecting of one's self is the fundamental base of all progress and all moral development.
{Chinese Proverb}

Myths are a waste of time. They prevent progression.
~ Barbra Streisand quotes, American Producer, Singer and Actress, b.1942

The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
~Joseph Joubert, 1754-1824, French Moralist and Essayist

[asiafish]

This is pure FUD. The DVD writer on a Mac Pro or a Mac Laptop or even Mac Mini is a standard laptop or desktop drive, only difference being slot-load. I like slot-loading drives so much that I bought one for my last ThinkPad and it worked perfectly.

Components do not wear out any faster in a Mac than in any other PC. RAM is RAM, hard drives are hard drives. Macs are well-made, as are business-grade PCs (like ThinkPads), and their components tend to last the same amount of time, with variables of environment and use affecting each in the same way.

Macs aren't made obsolete any faster or slower than PCs. Every computer ever made will run the software that was designed for it without issue. OS X in its current version will install on any G4 Mac of 867MHz or faster, meaning any laptop Mac since early 2003 with the singular exception of the cheapest iBook of the time and any desktop Mac since 2002. Many older Macs run it will too, such as my 1999 Power Mac G4 that was upgraded to a 1.0 GHz dual G4 processor at a cost of $180 back in 2004. That ten-year-old Mac is still going strong, and when I wanted to replace the out-of-date DVD-ROM drive that it came with, I went to Fry's and bought a modern DVDRW drive for $40 and it went right in and works perfectly. Ditto the hard drives and now ancient PC-100 RAM, all standard components that are available anywhere.

My 2008 model Mac Pro is the same way. In fact, when I wanted to add a second optical drive to it, I took the DVDRW drive out of the old Power Mac G4 and put it into the lower bay on the Mac Pro, and it works perfectly. The original DVD-ROM went back into the Power Mac. RAM came from Crucial and hard drives from New Egg. How is that in any way proprietary?

[asiafish]

WinTard said:

Yes but consider that for less than $1000, outperforming the $2500 entry-level Mac Pro isn't a small feat. Perhaps explaining why expensive PC's don't exist? Simply due to thriving competition? Thus your rationale that a good performing PC should cost more is nullified.

Now what is performance and quality? To me performance is a linearly quantifiable and measurable object. Numbers don't lie. And quality is the ratio afforded by the dependability versus the cost you had to pay to get it.

All the PC systems I have hand built over the past twenty years, all have survived an average of seven years without any single hardware trouble at all. I still have a 1998 Dell Latitude Cpi laptop, functioning like new. And a Dell Inspiron 300m from 2004, like brand new. And never have troubles with my handcrafted systems either. No BS. To me that's quality.

And to put an end to mere unsubstantiated FUD, I can assure you I will have less troubles with my hand selected component by component and handcrafted with love and passion systems, than any mass-producer can provide. PERIOD. But feel free to believe what you want, and I shall do likewise.

To make a parallel, which is substantiated by independent sources, Toyota and Honda provides not only better value, performance and quality for the dollar than any Mercedes or BMW. Also by market share, Toyota is #1 in the world, and also twice the size of Mercedes. Even Honda is larger than Mercedes. And both these companies have R&D budgets, unmatched in the rest of the industry. Although high-performance, BMW isn't even in the same league. Both these prestige brands only compete on the exclusivity scale, nothing else. But let's not get into car debates onto PCWorld...

Sources of subtantiation? Most car magazines, websites, and http://ConsumersReports.org, a NON PROFIT organization established in the 1930's. And also confirmed by their market shares...

~~~~~~~~~~
Price is what you pay; Value is what you get.
~ Warren Buffett

And there is no direct correlation between absolute price and absolute quality or absolute performance either.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. The i7 is a desktop-class processor and the Mac Pro has server-class Xeons. They are a different product for a different use. Are desktop-class processors as fast as server-class processors? Perhaps, but there are other factors that go into the choice of components. Look at a Dell Precision Workstation with dual Nehalem Xeon processors and you will find it costs more than a comparably equipped Mac Pro.

As for cars, is Toyota or Honda a better car, or just a more reliable one? Reliability is one aspect of value for money, but there are others. I drive 50,000 miles per year and used to have a Toyota Camry. The Camry is by all definitions a more reliable car than a Mercedes Benz, but which would you rather drive if you are going to spend 15 of the next 17 hours behind the wheel? I often do 1,000 mile days and in the Camry I would be in agony for the last 200 miles or so. In the Mercedes, I arrive at the end of the day without any back, neck or shoulder pain and generally feel quite good. How much is that worth?

[TechieXP]

First off Vista preinstall on a PC only cost $150...while OSX costs $129. Not that big a difference. What Apple doesn't charge for the OS, they make up in hardware cost. Even if I bought Windows Ultimate at full retail price of 399.99 and added it to a modest laptop or desktop, I will still spend less for it then buying a Mac.

However true real pc users don't need an article like this, because we already know the facts. Its teh other guys who DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE that need a constant reminder.

And Macs aren't safe from viruses, they aren't targeted as much. But that is changing rapidly.

[asiafish]

As the millions of Confliker-infected Macs and the vast army of Mac spam botnets tell you? Oh wait, there are no Mac spam botnets and has never been a Mac OS X worm or virus in the wild to day. There have been a handful of trojans in the wild, packaged with Warez that everyone should know to be illegal, but compared to the almost 200,000 Windows viruses, worms, trojans and other malware out there, us Mac users still have it pretty good.

You can always beat a Mac laptop on price, but thats not the only point. If you look at comparable laptops, the price is about the same. The original artical did just that and the two comparable Windows laptops were with $100 of the MacBook. Only an Ideapad with a cheaper 15.4" screen (and correspondingly larger size and heavier weight) was significantly cheaper.

Want to compare a Windows laptop with the higher-end MacBook and MacBook Pro? Don't bring budget Dell Inspiron or HP Pavillions to the table, those are consumer-grade. Price out a competitive Lenovo ThinkPad (not the consumer Ideapad) or Panasonic ToughBook business model. A 15.4" 1440X900 WSXGA ThinkPad T500 (T is the pro model) with discreet graphics, fast CoreDuo and Vista Business or Ultimate may be a bit cheaper than a MacBook Pro with similar spec, or it may be a bit more expensive, depending on the promotions going at the time. Either way, a MacBook Pro (15.4") should be compared with a comparable PC, not with a $600 Pavillion that only has its 15.4" screen size in common, but lacks discreet graphics, high resolution or the build quality that industry demands.

[WinTard]

Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 11,300 for difference between xeon and i7. (0.16 seconds)
>Xeon vs i7? - Mac Forums
>25 posts - 15 authors - Last post: 8 Mar
>There is absolutely no performance difference between a Core i7 and Xeon X3500 (or a single X5500) at the same clock speed with the same ...
>forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=663961 - 150k - Cached - Similar pages

>Forums - Apple Discussion, Macworld Chat - Macworld UK
>We can't actually tell much difference between Xeon and i7 - at least on paper. We are investigating though and will have clearer water when it comes to the ...
>www.macworld.co.uk/forums/msgs.cfm?msg=113980&forum=1 - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

The only difference between desktop i7 920 nehalem and XEON nehalem resides in the integrated memory controller supporting ECC RAM. That's it. That's all. Otherwise, speed, performance or otherwise, there are no differences.

source: http://ixbtlabs.com/...n-x5560-p1.html

As for comparing a Mercedes to a Toyota Camry, you go wrong again, you should have compared it to a Lexus.

Now find me any Mercedes or BMW car that does this (not even the 12 cylinder AMG will get close):
9000RPM 10 cyl, 4.8 L, 548HP, top speed: 338KPH, 22" wheels and it's a Lexus. (coming soon to a dealership near you in 2010).
Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 1,490,000 for lexus lf-a. (0.28 seconds)

But let's stop talking cars please!

[Vader]

Yes lets do look at what we can get for 1K. I got a gaming desktop which still beats the specs of any MAC that is at the same price range. And with Windows I never have to worry if the program that I just bought will be compatible. With Windows I never need to worry about compatibility. With MAC on the other hand you always have to worry about compatibility. And for all the idiots that say you can run Windows on a MAC... WHY WOULD I RUN WINDOWS ON A MAC? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the MAC? If I am just going to run Windows on it anyways why not just buy a Windows PC with far better components for less money than a MAC? Since I am a gamer PC beats MAC hands down any day. For price and for performance and for value. Also only idiots cannot solve their own problems with a PC. I get so sick and tired of all the MAC fans going on and on about how hard Windows is to use. I never have problems with it. I don't know why they do. PC's are not hard to use at all they require a rare trait, INTELLIGENCE. Also why is it that MAC fans go on and on about Windows many viruses? If you are careful about the sites that you visit and if you use good anti-virus software you will never have to worry about viruses. But I suppose most MAC users must be watching porn 24-7 and they don't want to have to worry about any viruses getting in their way. And I don't want to hear the old "if you wan't to game go and buy a XBOX 360 or a PS3". I HATE BOTH OF THOSE SYSTEMS!!!! PC HAS FAR BETTER GRAPHICS!!!! And PC just has better games in general. Also gaming with a decent mouse and keyboard is far better then gaming with a cramped gamepad that has barely half the function of a keyboard and mouse. Plus with a PC I get free online multi player with almost every game that I buy. And my PC beats any MAC when it comes to dependability too. This is because I used something in my PC that MACS don't have, HIGH QUALITY COMPONENTS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OBSOLETE FOR 5 YEARS OR MORE!!!!!

[WinTard]

I can build a nice server based on Nehalem Xeon 4 core processors using this mobo supporting up to 48GB RAM. $250~$350 range. Contrast that with Mac Pro topping out at 32GB RAM maximum.

>


Not car related but still apropos...

[asiafish]

I did compare to Lexus, but the philosophy is different. Lexus is about soft cushy ride and soft cushy seats, except for the IS-F model which like Mercedes AMG models, is a special limited production model well out of my price range.

I drive a C230 Kompressor that cost $34,000 new. That same price at the Lexus dealer gets either an ES350 (Camry with nicer leather) or IS250, which competes with the Mercedes quite well, but is a softer-riding car with softer seats. The Lexus IS250 is smoother and quieter than the C230 Kompressor, but the C230 Kompressor handles better (stiffer suspension), has much firmer seats and has a more solid feel on the road. If I was commuting 40 minutes per day on bad roads the Lexus would be better. Since I doing long miles on interstates most days (my offices are 120 miles apart) I prefer the Mercedes.

When I buy my next car in a year or two I will again compare IS series Lexus, 3 series BMW, A series Audi Quattro and C class Mercedes. I will buy the sportiest one with the firmest seats that I enjoy driving the most. The Lexus ES isn't anywhere near the ranking, and even if I could justify the cost, the Lexus GS or LS are just not the kind of car that I enjoy driving.

[maxlee5454]

I got a MacBook Pro 17" last year. Frankly speaking, the MBP is good for everything once you install the VMware and Vista. The Mac OSX is good but I don't use a lot. Basically if you want a luxury toy or graphic design tool, the MacBook Pro is good to choose. If your daily application just surf web, word processing watch stream video, the MSI 10 inch Netbook (I got it for less than $370 from J&R 2 month ago) is enough for you. The Netbook provide more USB port, longer battery live (10 hours) and much lighter (about 3 pounds with 6 cell battery). It is equiped with LED backlight screen too. I don't suggest any serious graphic or game application user to get $1K MacBook because it is Mac. If you think the $1K MacBook's spec. is good for you, I think that MSI Netbook can be for you.

[asiafish]

The point about the i7 and the Xeon isn't what is different, its that they are different. Xeons are made for servers and high-end graphical workstations, not for desktop PCs. In those roles, the error checking is important, and you pay a lot extra to get it. If you don't need it, you don't have to pay for it.

I didn't buy the Mac Pro to be faster than its competition (at the time in February 08 there were no i7 anyway), rather I bought it because I want an expandable desktop Mac that I will keep for the next nine or ten years. I don't need as fast of a computer as this is, and consider it a luxury item. I work hard, and owning a Mac Pro is one way that I chose to reward myself. I wear a 53-year-old Omega Constellation wristwatch instead of a much more accurate Timex digital for the same reason, because I like it and can afford it. I don't care that I have to get an overhaul ever other year or that it loses about two minutes per month.

Yes, I could have bought or built a PC that would do everything that I use the Mac Pro for. I could have bought a much cheaper iMac that does everything I do on the Mac Pro. I bought the Mac Pro because the last time I bought a high-end desktop Mac way back in 1999 I ended up keeping and actually using that machine for a full TEN YEARS. That Power Mac G4 is still going strong, still runs the very latest Mac OS, and only needed about $500 in upgrades over that time to keep its performance up to modern applications' requirements (including USB 2 an FireWire 800, DVI video out on two video cards and a faster PATA drive controller. I could upgrade it further if I so desired, but now I have the Mac Pro and have moved the old G4 to the office. The Mac Pro I have today is simply the nicest Mac OS desktop system available at the time of purchase.

[WinTard]

I disagree. Your forte is in law. Not technology.

Fundamentally workstations and servers have different purposes. Servers are on the back end, in a "lights out" server room, where no human stays, unless they have business there. Usually in rack mounted modular blade systems, with multiple-air-conditioning and humidifier units, keeping the environment ideal for machines, but not humans.

Workstations however, are endowed with high-end graphic cards, and the unit I built from parts, is one of the ULTIMATE workstations available, and certainly one of the highest performance vs cost of any high-end workstations available today. Surpassing in every way the capabilities of the Apple Mac Pro. Every single aspects.

If one cares about 3GB of ECC RAM, then so be it. I'll take 12GB anytime. But if that were a concern, why isn't it a concern in every other Apple consumer product? Only the Mac Pro uses ECC RAM, which is BTW slower and about four times as expensive. Thus a limiting factor. Also note the SuperMicro mobo I suggested for server, supports the XEON chips, which imbedded memory controller only supports ECC RAM. Thus on that $250~$350 mobo, I can populate two XEON quad cores, and 48GB of ECC RAM. Here again exceeding the capacity built-into the Apple Mac Pro for much less. Thus better value. And in terms of performance benchmarks, they will be very similar, still at much less costs thus better value. No difference in quality, except as perceived by Apple fans. But not effectively.

Now for a real look at a true server: 16 cores, 256GB RAM 64-bit OS.
>

Sorry for the slightly OT:

I drive (and love) my three cars: Toyota Supra Turbo 89, Toyota Corolla XRS 2005, Honda Civic Si 2008. All standard. All purchased new. All mint. And all Kick-4SS! No soft cushy rides here.

And the Lexus LF-A isn't a soft cushy ride either.

Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 720,000 for lexus lf-a. (0.21 seconds)
>http://www.motortrend.com/future/spiedvehicles/11207062010lexuslfa/index.html
>Racing toward its 2010 model year debut, the Lexus supercar, spied during testing at the famed Nurburgring, is being developed to compete with no less than the Ferrari F430 and other high-strung sports cars.
>
>http://www.lexus.com/fcv/lfaroadster.html
>F isn?t just a letter, it?s a statement. And the LF-A Roadster is our boldest statement yet. Based on the LF-A coupe, we?ve removed the top to create a high-performance roadster. Its low-profile, sleek, aerodynamic shape is fashioned from lightweight carbon fiber and aluminum and features a speed adaptive rear wing. And like the coupe, the LF-A Roadster is powered by a high-revving V10 engine capable of over 500 horsepower, which can reach an astonishing top speed of over 200 mph on the track. Fasten your sunscreen.

[TechieXP]

WinTard as usual your post are #1 best to read.
I want to though attempt to strike a balance. Since you can't build a Mac by definition, then the only fair comparison is to buy a pre-built OEM based system. Alienware, Sony and Dell and HP and even Asus offer system that will match spec for spec any system Apple designs...quality and workmanship included. On both sides of teh coin you can get a system with similar or even exact specs for more or less on both sides. But on teh PC side you can expect more of them will cost less because you simply have more options. Because OEM's are always undercutting another you stand to always get a good price. Since no one sells Apple hardware but Apple, they have no reason to drop price.

However at this point, now that Apple is x86...the hardware is the same. The only separation is the OS. So since OSX cost 129 compare to Vista at $150, what is all the extra cost? So Microsoft bloats Windows software, Apple bloats Apple hardware.

It is obvious any PC enthusiast can build a system with even better Mac specs for less and if you buil one for even teh same price you will get better hardware on the pc side. Fact, I don't care how much you try to compare Xeon CPU's are not better then Pentium. In fact the Th eprevious Xeons were cast off the socket 775 Pentium 4's. The only difference is that Xeon has 3 level of cache vs 2 on the Pentium. But we have ours too. The latest quadcores 775 and newest 13xx all have an Extreme Edition CPU available with 3 levels of cache and I can configure a system with one for less then a Mac Pro.

Laptop are even easier. Since without serious modifications no one can build a laptop. It is obvious in this arena ALL OEM's can beat Apple's pricings. However to be FAIR, we should pit them against laptops that have the same quality and hardware specs applied. These would be made my Sony, Alienware, Dell XPS and ThinkPad. All of them ar expensive and there is a price swing on both side. However Windows based system still when out for offering more or better hardware for the same or less cost of a Mac. Asus offers a quadcore laptop for just under $2000. Apple doesn't offer one like it at all and its a close match by apple would cost 2499 to start.

This is why Apple will not allow OSX to be natively installed on hardware other than theirs. Bec if they did they would be forced to drop prices as low as what we have. Bec Apple knows for a fact we can get PC hardware for less and no one would ever buy and Apple. They would simply purchase a low cost P Windows based solution and then go buy Mac OSX. Since Apple is a hardware company and not a software company they would lost money because they would way less or no hardware sales. Bec you'd have to be stupid or on drugs to pay $3000 for a system to run either OS if you don't have too.

All companies charge a premium just bec they slap their name on it. So Apple would be expected to do so. But there is a difference from making a profit, vs price gauging...which is what Apple is doing.

From day one even when PC's didn't have a GUI, DOS still was beating the socks off Mac OS. WIndows simply sealded its fate. The selling point was lower cost hardware that offer a huge selection of software. That is what sells hardware in the first place and MSFT knew this. The oney no metter who tells you isn't in the hardware. Most people will only buy 1 piece of hardware...so if teh money was only in that, how would they stay in business. Its teh after sales of software that bring value and none offers more value then Windows based PC. And now that Macs run Windows they are no different.

And for the people who keep saying Macs run Windows better then a Windows PC? Prove it!!!!!!!!!! I want to see that as factual numerical data. The only difference between Mac hardware and PC hardware is how teh motherboard is made. I am aware Apple has found a way to squeeze a bit more speed out of a Mac. But it pales compared to PC.

Macs feature CPU lock the prevents not only being able to overclock teh cpu, it also prevents you from installing faster CPU's. This is also true of most OEM's...however you can upgrade to faster CPU as long as they use or can use the same front side bus speed. SORRY NOT TRUE OF ANY MAC.

Putting faster speed ram in a mac provides no beneit...it does on other compueters wheere you can adjust teh bus frequency.
This is whwre being a pc enthiusiaste comes in. bec we can buy a motherbooard and support multiple speeds and even overclock. I can overclock my quadcore 2.4 to 3.8..making it faster than any mac on teh street right now with teh exception of the latest 8 core. But I can go and mke 3 quick purchases for a total of $800 and beat teh mac without buying a whole new computer. That means I have way more value. PC users don't care about buying a new pc every 3 to for years...because for one the 2 total purchases will still cost lest than a single mac purchase. And they will have faster hardware...with teh mac they will have to buy a whole new mac to get the same. This has always been a fact of teh 2 and the fact Apple went x86 doesn't change much. It does however offer teh option of upgrade SOME mac features. On a PC there is Nothing i can't customize even the OS.

But this article is going to ensue a fight. Why keep the fight alive when at this point it should really die.
As a matter of fact there is only 1 single difference between a mac and a Windows based pc...and that is the native OS. The fact that Snow Leopard will now offer many of the features that have always been in Windows, like Sync and Exchange Support and more, OSX will actually be more Windows like in that respect. So who is copying who now?

Both systems can dual boot multiple OS's...a typical pc however can natively boot any x86 OS, while Macs can't. There are other OS's other than Windows, Linux and OSX/Unix.

At this point to be fair to each other. A big deal is being made over nothing. It's just like other prejudices to this day people still have issues with like race and religion. Most people can live with these difference and see no difference. And others just have to keep the hate alive siply because they don't have a life and they have to draw attention to themselves. People who know how to make good buying decision should simply be happy with there purchase and not trying to pawn it off on others. Because you ultimately are teh one who has to live with your decision. No one else does. When people are happy about their decision, they don't rub the others nose in it. Do you think Brad Pitt calls Jennifer Anniston to rub her nose in him having a much better women? You think Bill Gates calls Steve Jobs and says nah nah nah nah I did better than youuuuuu? When we first landed on the moon in 1969, you think Kennedy called Russia and rubbed it into their face?

Just remember this. Many people in this world believe that the only way to get good quality and value is to pay and arm and a leg for it. The rest of them do it simply for show. If you can afford to, go out and buy a Porsche and rive it everyday in bumper to bumper, pothole ridden streets here in Chicago and see how long it lasts compared to any other American vehicle or even another German or Japanese model. The best things in life aren't always free and they always don't have to cost an arm and a leg. No matter how much your house cost, a match dropped in the wrong place will certainly bring it down.

[WinTard]

My point is building your own machine, is as valid as buying a pre-built branded machine. In terms of dollars, performance, quality, technology, flexibility, you name the parameter. If they make it, I feel I can do better. And so can anyone of you!

:)

[asiafish]

The i7 is a desktop processor, the Xeon is a server processor. They are different products. You can talk all day about speed, what about error checking? Personally, the biggest difference to me between your homebrew desktop and my Mac Pro isn't performance, which I doubt I would notice at these lofty levels, but design and experience. The Mac Pro is a Mac, and runs OS X as its native OS. That happens to be my OS of choice, and since I wanted a modular desktop, the Mac Pro, which is absolutely overkill for my needs, was my choice. If Apple offered a cheaper minitower that had a modular case, I would probably have bought it. They don't, so I didn't. The other option was Windows, and I don't want Windows except for gaming, which incidentally I only do when I travel, and do so on my MacBook Pro in Boot Camp.

The Lexus coupe looks like a very nice car, but I am not in the market for an exotic two-seat sports car. What I want to drive, based on my many diverse automotive needs, is a sporty sedan in the $30,000 to $40,000 range. There are many cars in that range, but I prefer rear-drive or all-wheel-drive, so all of the front drivers are out. I like firm seats and heavy control feel. Many choices remain, and among them, Mercedes Benz was my preference in 2005 when I last bought one. Were I buying today, I would lean toward a BMW 128i. I don't care that other cars might get to 60MPH a half-second sooner (I could get BMW's own 135i for that), its about look, sound, feel and design. Lexus is a great car, but their offerings in my price range just don't have much personality.

My other car, by the way, is a 2007 Ford F-150 pickup truck with vinyl seats, crank windows and the base V6 engine. I like it just as much as the Mercedes, for very different reasons.

[bub9001]

Wow good job on all the specs, sounds like you have a winner. A PC like that should do really good at playing the same games you can play on a PS3 or Xbox. So relly you over spent yourself. I can buy a Mac Mini for $599 that will do everything I want, even play games. And when it comes time to upgrade I will have people standing in line to buy my Mac mini. Just look how good Mac's Keep their value over a 3 year period.

[WinTard]

Ok I'll end it here. You want it to be different. So be it. To me there is are NO differences except as I stated in the ECC memory controller. And as confirmed in my prior post by two mac forums as well. Performance wise, the processors are identical. The Ram isn't however. Those overclockable ram from 1333 to 2000MHz make one HUGE difference in memory transfer rate bandwidth. But I agree overclocking is a foreign concept to Apple fans. Even though it works...

And BTW, all you have done is to find problems. Whereas I proposed possible solutions, including a server-motherboard supporting ECC, with 16GB more RAM than the Apple Mac Pro souped up to the hilt. For much less.

My point is made. I can outperform any brand name for the same amount of money. That fact is clear. And I can procure anything they can, just by looking for it. Because a PC is a PC, no more, no less. And I have MORE choices, than a manufacturer has, because they limit themselves...

The term I also applies to any true PC enthusiast as well, desiring to do their own. Easy!

Peace!

[maxlee5454]

I used to build my own PC when my salary was $10/hour. For now, if I work with few extra hours I can have a built to order high-end computer plus 3 year warranty and support. How many days do your prepare in order to build and test your computer? What happen if you get a bad component, or your new CPU requires bios updated by your vendor did not doucument it?