[WinTard]

scarface9477 said:

>Bah! This article is extremely biased to Microsoft, sounds like somebody got paid, hmm?

Why are you implying somebody got paid? hmm? Obviously all the authors and journalist are getting paid to earn their living. Don't you get paid? But I will concede many articles from many sources are biased. Like you also apparently are biased against Microsoft. Why is that?

Now I'd be interested to know which part of the article you feel is biased? Well you brought it up? Or you wouldn't just be trolling? One liner hit-and-run?

I happen to agree with the demise of XP for current and future hardware. I think XP shall remain on legacy systems, until they fry... Like my initial post to this thread stated. Thus attrition is going to kill XP.

I agree with the author's rationale that Vista {Windows 6.0} was launched prematurely, and most hardware back then couldn't handle the requirements. It wasn't Vista, but the inept hardware situation of three years ago.

>Quote:
>First off, it's no secret that Vista hasn't been embraced by enterprises, many of whom have treated it like the plague.

Perhaps to a Microsoft basher, this statement would be "biased" like you claim?

>Quote:
>Today that's no longer the case. Enterprises have gone through at least one round of hardware refresh since the Vista launch, and so now virtually all of their PCs will run Windows 7.

Then further substantiation from respected sources.

>Quote:
>In addition, the Windows 7 beta has been quite solid and stable -- so much so that Gartner has been telling businesses that they don't need to hold off until Windows 7 SP1 to plan for deployment -- they can start planning at launch.

In my opinion, I see nothing but mere simple truth to the situation as-it-is. However, all these brainwashed people, following the popular myth bashing Microsoft as the 'in thing to do', is getting old, and long in the tooth...

So yes, I'd like to understand your rationale behind you wild claims, hmm?

scarface9477 said:

>Bah! This article is extremely biased to Microsoft, sounds like somebody got paid, hmm?

Please do share it with us.

PS: Do you believe in paid shills?

~~~~~~~~~~
If you believe everything you read, better not read.
{Chinese Proverb}

The smart person knows to believe in only half of the so-called "Truth"; The wise one knows which half.
~ Al Sandid

[oldschoolh4ck3r]

If you plan to run older hardware with XP and have all the drivers and software you need, and can do everything you need to do, then Windows 7 would not be a smart choice financially or time-wise. Deployments of new operating systems take time, disrupt regular computing, and cost money. On the other hand, if you're upgrading your hardware or are going to use software that requires newer functionality not supported by existing drivers or your OS, then it's well worth it. The problem here isn't that Microsoft is releasing Windows 7 to replace XP; the problem is that Microsoft sold Vista and is now making Windows 7 out to be THE option to go with when it's actually just a Vista service pack masquerading as an entirely new OS. There's nothing in Windows 7 that couldn't have been implemented in a service pack made available for people like myself who invested considerably (time and money-wise) in Vista.

As for replacing XP, it's inevitable. But that doesn't make XP a bad OS. What I wonder is what about the XP activation process? Will Microsoft still allow XP to be activated?

[WinTard]

You and I agree 100% my friend oldschoolh4ck3r!

Look at me, I walk the talk. I still use that old Windows 2000 Enterprise Server on an old Pentium Pro! And am NOT going to upgrade my existing machines to Windows 7. Except in this specific case: Any 64-bit capable CPU will be blessed with Windows 7 Ultimate / Enterprise x64. At home, that makes three machines. The rest will stay as-is. (I've got 18 of them). Why? because I never throw anything. I've still got two Heath/Zenith H89's CP/M with 64K of RAM! And a 6502 Motorola with 1K LOL! And yes they still work after almost 35 years in the case of the 6502. I do not count these amongst my 18 systems, those are real PCs... It appears I've got a dinosaur museum / emporium of stuff... Mostly, I keep them out of nostalgic reasons, but I've got a 4600+ sq ft home and plenty space. And honestly, have not used at least 10 of them, in the past 10 years. The others are running fine with Linux, since it's so efficient.

Yeah, my Active Directory is merely to keep from having to synchronize passwords everywhere for everybody, I cannot stand the Workgroup way of doing things. But that mere function is so simple, I keep it to my trusty old Pentium Pro, with 128MB RAM! Ahh, but I'm backed up, so whenever this thing dies, that will be farewell. I won't even attempt to fix it. I found it nice, it got free updates from Microsoft re timezone changes when the US decided to change things, and for the Conficker scare. After how many years? And still being 'supported' by Microsoft? These guys are great!

So to clarify:
1) I won't go through the time wasted in upgrading any of my existing systems. So if they run XP x86 (32-bit) they shall remain static.
2) I intend to put Windows 7 Ultimate x64 onto my dual-core AMD gaming server, which currently runs XP x86.
3) I intend to put Windows 7 Ultimate x64 onto my quad-core Intel gaming system, which now runs Vista Ultimate (the latest fix and all) x64 already 64-bit all the way for the two past and a half year.
4) I intend to put Windows 7 Enterprise x64 onto my dual-core laptop, with which I am currently evaluating Windows 7 beta.

That's it. I won't even bother looking at Windows 7 x86. For 32-bit, everything remains static for me. And for 64-bit, everything goes Windows 7 x64.

As for your question about activation of XP, eons after discontinuation, I'm certain Microsoft would be gracious enough to provide you a free activation should it be required, as long as you can prove you purchased XP in the first place. But my point is whenever your old hardware dies out of old-age, XP will be the least of your problems... You'll have to refresh your hardware. It will be simpler and cheaper then to go to whatever is current at the time in terms of OS. Have you considered Linux? As alternatives, the Dell XP-SP3 recovery media will load onto any Dell branded machine without activation. And if you go to any university bookstore, simply consider the XP for students media? It does not require activation either. Basically perpetual. Costs dirt cheap. And will load onto any PC. Oh, the 64-bit version of Windows also loads directly through EFI, so no need for bootcamp on Apples, should you be one of those who like the looks and hardware provided by Apple, but don't like OS X. I've encountered a few members like this on PCWorld you know? Blasphemy to Apple Cult followers, but hey this is reality and IT is a wild PCWorld out there... In gaming, campers die first!

In the meantime, I am already using Linux x64 wherever I can. But usually don't install it, I prefer simply booting a livecd. Less hassles. And the same goes for 32-bit hardware. I don't load Linux because I don't have to.

These are my favorite distributions of Linux LiveCD.

from http://www.livecdlist.com/
1) http://www.livecdlist.com/knoppix
2) http://www.livecdlist.com/ubuntu

Also I like particularly this one:
>XBMC for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux
>XBMC is an award winning media center for Mac OS X, Linux, Windows, Apple TV and Xbox. The ultimate hub for all your media.
>http://xbmc.org/ - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

XBMC LiveCD "ISO image for creating a bootable CD to try XBMC. Also installable to a USB flash drive." Free Open-Source of course!

Enjoy!

PS: Like someone else said before about people migrating to Linux and Mac. I've been with Linux since day one! But have NOT migrated away, to me Open-Source is simply like spice you add onto a steak. It isn't the steak, but the steak would be pretty bland, without spices... And since Open-Source is free, it will NEVER replace Microsoft. Only complement it. As for Mac what's that?

Google:
Results 1 - 10 of about 4,110,000 for boot os x on pc. (0.18 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300 for efix dongle. (0.14 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 2,300,000 for dell mini os x. (0.21 seconds)
http://www.engadget....ed-to-run-os-x/

If and whenever I've got extra-time, I might look into it... But I'm pretty satisfied by the hardened firewalls already provided under FreeBSD, for the PC! OS X looks funky, but not extraordinary. And on top of it, I'd have to buy it for $99... When http://www.freeos.com/ or Sun's opensolaris.org/os/|OpenSolaris looks pretty attractive to me first. Ah, it's just a matter of time. The Dell Mini-9 comes with Ubuntu for $250. Cheap way to investigate OS X for those inclined to do so?
-----
The rationale behind this post hinges on:

As far as legal precedents concerning this issue of illegality for OS X to be loaded on non-Apple branded hardware, people cannot ignore this US Supreme Court ruling:
Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 2,700 for 1984 U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decision held that a software publisher can't require consumers to run an operating system on a specific type of hardware. (0.35 seconds)

The exact US Supreme Court case legal precedent is:
Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 446 for Digidyne Corp. v. Data General Corp., 734 F.2d 1336 (9th Cir 1984), cert denied, 473 U.S. 908 (1985). (0.15 seconds)
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DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER. For legal advice, consult a lawyer. To understand your fundamental rights, please visit http://eff.org. They are lawyers.
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[coastie65]

I don't know what win7 will do. I do know it won't do anything as far as I'm concerned, as I still have a couple of unused XP OS's ( XP MCE 2005 SP2b & XP Home SP3 ). coastie65

[WinTard]

I think basically Windows 7 is finally what Windows should have been from day one. But alas, polish and perfection can only be refined over time. So in version 7 of Windows, Microsoft finally got it right in terms of functionality / efficiency / and apparently reliability?

For all new or future machines, I would probably use Windows 7 as the preferred OS, like XP is today. Hey Windows is still Windows, regardless of XP / Vista or Seven... Just a more up-to-date version. For instance the Vista Ultimate x64 consumes 1.2GB out of 8GB RAM doing nothing, whereas the same hardware under Windows 7 Ultimate x64 does about 670MB RAM. And it boots faster, and feels quicker, on the SAME hardware... Microsoft must have done something right! And we consumers win!

And when XP is finally retired, and cannot be purchased any longer, then I guess it will be Windows 7 that will inherit the sales? From what I read by other people's experiences, Windows 7 is just as snappy as XP on the SAME existing hardware. That is good news? The question is will there be any 32-bit CPU for sale in a few months or years?

Win-Win all the way!

[asiafish]

My only gripe about WIndows 7 is that it, at least as of build 7000, doesn't support the old Win95-style start menu. I know the new one is supposed to be faster and more efficient, but I've been using the old one for 14 years now and it suits the way I use Windows. Hopefully Microsoft adds it back before the retail release, but I doubt it. For me, Windows 2000 was the highlight in interface and I always adjusted the settings of XP and Vista to mimic it. Windows 2000 remains my favorite MS system to date, though performance and features have improved since. I liked it because it was clean and uncluttered, much the same reason that I like OS X.

Actually there are a few elements of the Windows UI that I would like to see in OS X, and am still undecided on Microsoft's adoption of an OS X-like dock in place of the old quicklaunch tool bar and task bar which I thought were faster and more intuitive. Microsoft did improve on the dock in some ways, didn't quite get it right in others, but this is still beta so I'll reserve final judgement until after I've played with the retail version for a while.

Of course, these are minor quibbles. Window 7 itself is fast, stable and thus far extremely compatible, and that is far more important than the eye candy.

[coastie65]

Most if not all of the feedback I've seen from those playing with the Beta, seems to be positive. I'll continue to monitor the feedback with an open mind. I wasn't over joyed at moving from Win 2k Pro to XP either, but quickly began liking all the new features, such as system restore ( thought that was the best thing since sliced bread ). coastie

[coastie65]

asiafish said:

My only gripe about WIndows 7 is that it, at least as of build 7000, doesn't support the old Win95-style start menu. I know the new one is supposed to be faster and more efficient, but I've been using the old one for 14 years now and it suits the way I use Windows. Hopefully Microsoft adds it back before the retail release, but I doubt it. For me, Windows 2000 was the highlight in interface and I always adjusted the settings of XP and Vista to mimic it. Windows 2000 remains my favorite MS system to date, though performance and features have improved since. I liked it because it was clean and uncluttered, much the same reason that I like OS X.

Actually there are a few elements of the Windows UI that I would like to see in OS X, and am still undecided on Microsoft's adoption of an OS X-like dock in place of the old quicklaunch tool bar and task bar which I thought were faster and more intuitive. Microsoft did improve on the dock in some ways, didn't quite get it right in others, but this is still beta so I'll reserve final judgement until after I've played with the retail version for a while.

Of course, these are minor quibbles. Window 7 itself is fast, stable and thus far extremely compatible, and that is far more important than the eye candy.

That is what heard about the start menu. :p As for XP, I switched the control panel to the classic style, like the previous versions of windows. Then I felt right at home...............almost. coastie

[WinTard]

JimH443 said:

I've not tried Windows 7, but here is what it will take in order to make XP "disappear" from the community:

1) Do everything XP does, with the same device drivers.
2) Require the same hardware that XP does.
3) Give it away for free.

If Microsoft does this, there will be very few XP users. :)

I suspect that's why they give Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 for free. Or for complete virtualization, then consider Hyper-V ^1^. But your mobo must support it... Which means you will require something contemporary, negating the requirement for XP in the first place... Catch-22? One can easily boot XP within Windows... Nowadays, with more than 64 cores ^2^ supported by socket under Windows 7, and multi-socket mobos (4 sockets) coming out, plus the 8 or 12 core chips, ... Wow! We are talking serious computing here! The likes of which most PC users have never even considered, or contemplated. I am drooling... This is not your Grand-daddy's Windows we're talking about here.

Now I like that particular desktop: Ubuntu rocks!
>
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^1^ I boot the latest and greatest Red Hat Enterprise Linux Advanced Server 5.2 x64 under Windows 2008 x64 and Hyper-V. (I know the v5.3 just came out...) And also can boot everything else under the Sun so to speak... I wonder about OS X? ;) Well the process creates an image. The image is directly loaded into memory. Booting a virtual machine with whatever image is a matter of single digit seconds.
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^2^ New NUMA Support in Windows Server 2008 R2 and Windows 7
The 64-bit versions of Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 support more than 64 Logical Processors (LP) on a single computer. New processors are now appearing that leverage non-uniform memory access (NUMA) architectures. Within the near future, a system with 4 CPU sockets, 8 processor-cores per socket and with Simultaneious Multi-Threading (SMT) enabled per core, will achieve 64 Logical Processors. Many high-end server-class solutions may need to be architected with NUMA awareness in order to achieve linear performance scaling on such systems. Parallel Computing and High Performance Computing solution developers may also find NUMA awareness essential for performance scalability.

[JimH443]

[quote name='WinTard']
>

JimH443 said:

> I've not tried Windows 7, but here is what it will take in order to make XP "disappear" from the community:
>
> 1) Do everything XP does, with the same device drivers.
> 2) Require the same hardware that XP does.
> 3) Give it away for free.
>
> If Microsoft does this, there will be very few XP users. :)
>

>

Quote

I suspect that's why they give Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 for free. Or for complete virtualization, then consider Hyper-V ^1^. But your mobo must support it... Which means you will require something contemporary, negating the requirement for XP in the first place... Catch-22? One can easily boot XP within Windows... Nowadays, with more than 64 cores ^2^ supported by socket under Windows 7, and multi-socket mobos (4 sockets) coming out, plus the 8 or 12 core chips, ... Wow! We are talking serious computing here! The likes of which most PC users have never even considered, or contemplated. I am drooling... This is not your Grand-daddy's Windows we're talking about here.

I was being facetious.Will anything ever kill XP? No, not for many years at least. There's still a lot of people using Win98SE.

[RNR19952]

If M$ does not get Windows 7 to upgrade from XP, 7 won't be killing anything but itself, think about it.

[coastie65]

RNR19952 said:

If M$ does not get Windows 7 to upgrade from XP, 7 won't be killing anything but itself, think about it.

You may have a point there.

[RNR19952]

Think about it Vista will upgrade from XP and 7 is really 6.1
M$ is just being a prick, there is not a programmer alive that could convince me that the upgrade is not doable. It would be sad for M$ to shoot themselves in the feet twice?? You only get two, then your crippled!
Do not get me wrong, we all know a clean install is always better, but to get 7 into the enterprise it better upgrade. No IT department in their right mind would do a fresh install on all their existing equipment.

[rgreen4]

You can only upgrade one step from within Windows. However, most power users will tell you to do a clean install of any new OS, which means you run the install from outside Windows (booting from the CD). This eliminates any inconsistencies in the current OS from carrying over to the new OS. I have long done my upgrades this way.
You will be able to upgrade, you just will not be able to run it from within XP.
Coastie - I know you like the Media Center, and the Home Premium version with MC is a whole lot easier to install than XP MCE!
RNR19952 - no IT department would want to do an upgrade on all their machines either. They have an easier way to do it. They create a standard install with all of the programs they want on a machine, the disable the ability of the user to modify the system and then they make an image of the install. They then format the drive and install from the image. They don't even have to install a CD as they do it from the server. Should take less than 30 minutes to do it. They then can manually any software authorized for a particular user that is in addition to the standard.

[WinTard]

You won't be able to upgrade from 32-bit code to 64-bit code, properly that is. Thus a clean-install is the only solution IMHO. This doesn't apply to the 32-bit version of Windows 7. So you will be able to upgrade, but why? Corporations will simply roll out corporate "customized" images to their standards, encryption, anti-virus, firewalls, policies, and the appropriate versions of productivity tools, via SMS or other distribution mechanisms. End users will go home one night, and come the next, to their new desktops, with everything essential intact, including all their corporate data. That is the purpose of an IT department. Been there, done that. Many-a-times. In corporations, all data resides onto corporate servers. The rest is non-essential. So your personal pictures, viruses, and all that crap, the end-users will have to save on their own, unless they already use a roaming profile, allowing them to login from any node (workstation) in the entire Enterprise Network, and see their own desktop, intact with their personal and private data. Think of it, there is no private data onto a corporate PC. As these devices are owned, and managed by and for the corporation... Same goes for emails. Keep your own 'private' stuff private, and not onto someone else's property.

[coastie65]

Hey rg, Everything is easier than XP MCE. :D I love the challenge and the satisfaction after getting a clean install. According to Crucial, this thing is well with the framework to run Ultimate, but I am still adamant about NO Vista Shall Enter this machine. :D

[ClaudeD]

Windows 7 has no chance to kill XP. There will be one and only one reason XP dies...Microsoft makes it un-available to oem's, users and manufacturers. Windows 7 is as Microsoft says running the Vista core with some improvements, that makes it a version of Vista. Accurate evaluations by publications, oem and users will spell wether is is a success or just another version of Vista. My testing indicated little change from Vista excepting it runs slightly slower and on this was on a 3+ghz quad core cpu and 4 gig ram. There must be a reason people have been buying used pc's for the XP operating system disk.

[RNR19952]

No offense but I do not think an IT department will waste their time to build an image for used PC's. I do however believe they would upgrade them when Windows gets funky rather than doing a reinstall or an old image of XP.
Most places have so many apps that it is at least an all day job to build a good image. And you do not have to format before imaging, it is an image of a drive, why format?

[RNR19952]

The current BETA has no upgrade path from XP
Hopefully M$ will see the light.

[WinTard]

Don't worry, I'm sure Microsoft will offer something. But have been proven more wrong than right many-a-times... ;)

For a personal user, my method of upgrading would be:
1) Backup existing stuff. How? Simply purchase a brand new 1TB drive for around $120. Unplug your existing drive, power and signal. The unplugged drive is your backup.
2) Install the new drive power and signal, and make SURE the original disk with your BACKUP isn't connected at all.
3) Clean-install (cold-metal) Windows 7 by booting off the CD/DVD. Let her rip. Most users won't have to do anything except agree to all defaults.
4) Once new Windows pristine installation is successful, plug back your old BACKUP drive, alongside your new Windows 7 HDD. Most systems can handle two drives?
5) Copy (do not move or migrate) the data off the old HDD to your new HDD. All of it. Into a folder of your choice (ie: OldStuffAsOfYYYYMMDD)
6) Unplug your old BACKUP HDD, power and signal. And either leave in machine, or take out elsewhere, in case of earthquake, fire, theft or disaster... That's your most recent backup, all done in zero time, for zero dollar$...

Enjoy!

PS: and you are 100% right about XP never dying. It still lives as-is on your BACKUP HDD, should you ever need it again...
PPS: I'm willing to bet you won't have to load a single driver manually. Why? because if Windows XP could drive your existing hardware, then Windows 7 knows about it already.