[nite41]

@ WinTard

Yeah, you are right. While we fight (verbally ;)) for them, those companies are busy making money off us! haha! Not fair. IMHO, the open-source softwares are the ones that really do something about the end-users.

Peace!

[nite41]

@ WinTard

Hey, where do you get those beautiful phrases/idioms from? Some of them are really amazing. Any website or any book?

[bperetto]

I disagree with the OP. The article stated this was about comparing the hardware you get for similarly priced laptops. iLife and the OS shouldn't even have been under the "other features" as it's out of scope for this article. There's plent of other OS-wars articles out there to cover those bases.

[alkybird]

[quote name='nite41']@ alkybird

Windows productivity suite software!! wow!! What is the heck is that? Are you referring to the crappy extra trial softwares that come with a new PC?? Coz if you are, boy, you got a really long way to go man!! lol!!

And it seems you do not own a Mac. No wonder you are ignorant about them. Get one, use it for some time, then come back and reply. I am pretty sure, that by then, your eyes would have opened up!

To finish off, i bought a MacBook Pro coz i was tired of the BSOD.

Case closed....nite41 - I think we need to change your handle to slingblade247 since everything you say is pretty much the equivalent of "Want some french friend taters..." If you actually read what I wrote (yes a novel idea I agree) then you would have understood that I said that windows did NOT come with a productivity suite. You would have to buy it later. Good god, even when I agree with your point you make moronic comments. Also along the "if you actually read what I wrote" lines I clearly stated I did not own a Mac but wished I could have afforded one for my wife. Is it possible for you to read past the first line slingblade? In fact I have used several macs over the years to include an SE II, an old power book, plus several company owned macbooks for presentations. I do appreciate them for what they are but I also mantain a realistic understanding of the other side. Sadly someone so deeply drowned in one aspect cannot see the beach from under the water. Hence my take your head out of your mac comment. Seriously talking to people like you is a waste of time. At least others on this forum have worthwhile input. The biggest reason Mac users will never turn back to windows is simply because they are not "power users" that would actually modify (or even swap) hardware. For people that never care to crack the case on a comp, Mac is the best thing since sliced bread...it takes no thought to use. Just like the difference between Windows and Linux. Compared to Linux, Win takes no brains. So really there are several degrees of computer "power user" with Linux savants being the greatest involved of the more mainstream products. hence why I have both Win and Linux boxes in my home and for my VERY non-power user wife a Mac would have been perfect. Learn to appreciate computers for their uses...imbecile.

[alkybird]

I hate web sites' auto quote...they can never get them right...

[WinTard]

I am happy you can appreciate these quotes. I merely collect them over time, whenever I stumble upon something I find beautiful, understand and agree with, I simply metabolize it, and it hopefully becomes integral part of me, the new and improved WinTard, one step at a time, day after day. ;)

You can easily find lots of wisdom online. I particularly like http://selfgrowth.com. It is free, and awesome. Everyday, there are newsletters, and each contains at least one quote. Furthermore, you can simply google with the term quotes; i.e. Einstein quotes, or Famous quotes...

I am glad the seeds of mutual understanding and respect are taking roots. It is much more profitable to be friends than enemies. And we're all here with a similar purpose? To learn and share our thoughts and ideas, so we can collectively expand our horizons... Isn't it fun?

It all begins with mutual respect and consideration for each other.

Please enjoy, my friend!

~~~~~~~~~~
Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
~ Abraham Lincoln, 1809-1865, 16th President of the United States

He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.
~ Andrew Carnegie

Fools say that they learn from experience. I prefer to learn by other people?s experience.
~ Bismarck

One who minds the feelings of others is no fool.
{Chinese Proverb}

[alkybird]

[quote name='alkybird']
>

nite41 said:

@ alkybird
>
> Windows productivity suite software!! wow!! What is the heck is that? Are you referring to the crappy extra trial softwares that come with a new PC?? Coz if you are, boy, you got a really long way to go man!! lol!!
>
> And it seems you do not own a Mac. No wonder you are ignorant about them. Get one, use it for some time, then come back and reply. I am pretty sure, that by then, your eyes would have opened up!
>
> To finish off, i bought a MacBook Pro coz i was tired of the BSOD.
>
> Case closed....{quote}

nite41 - I think we need to change your handle to slingblade247 since everything you say is pretty much the equivalent of "Want some french friend taters..." If you actually read what I wrote (yes a novel idea I agree) then you would have understood that I said that windows did NOT come with a productivity suite. You would have to buy it later. Good god, even when I agree with your point you make moronic comments. Also along the "if you actually read what I wrote" lines I clearly stated I did not own a Mac but wished I could have afforded one for my wife. Is it possible for you to read past the first line slingblade? In fact I have used several macs over the years to include an SE II, an old power book, plus several company owned macbooks for presentations. I do appreciate them for what they are but I also mantain a realistic understanding of the other side. Sadly someone so deeply drowned in one aspect cannot see the beach from under the water. Hence my take your head out of your mac comment. Seriously talking to people like you is a waste of time. At least others on this forum have worthwhile input. The biggest reason Mac users will never turn back to windows is simply because they are not "power users" that would actually modify (or even swap) hardware. For people that never care to crack the case on a comp, Mac is the best thing since sliced bread...it takes no thought to use. Just like the difference between Windows and Linux. Compared to Linux, Win takes no brains. So really there are several degrees of computer "power user" with Linux savants being the greatest involved of the more mainstream products. hence why I have both Win and Linux boxes in my home and for my VERY non-power user wife a Mac would have been perfect. Learn to appreciate computers for their uses...imbecile.



as it should have read

[alkybird]

WinTard said:

I am happy you can appreciate these quotes. I merely collect them over time, whenever I stumble upon something I find beautiful, understand and agree with, I simply metabolize it, and it hopefully becomes integral part of me, the new and improved WinTard, one step at a time, day after day. ;)

You can easily find lots of wisdom online. I particularly like http://selfgrowth.com. It is free, and awesome. Everyday, there are newsletters, and each contains at least one quote. Furthermore, you can simply google with the term quotes; i.e. Einstein quotes, or Famous quotes...

I am glad the seeds of mutual understanding and respect are taking roots. It is much more profitable to be friends than enemies. And we're all here with a similar purpose? To learn and share our thoughts and ideas, so we can collectively expand our horizons... Isn't it fun?

It all begins with mutual respect and consideration for each other.

Please enjoy, my friend!

~~~~~~~~~~
Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
~ Abraham Lincoln, 1809-1865, 16th President of the United States

He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.
~ Andrew Carnegie

Fools say that they learn from experience. I prefer to learn by other people’s experience.
~ Bismarck

One who minds the feelings of others is no fool.
{Chinese Proverb} {quote}

While I would agree with you about mutual respect, some folks edit themselves out of the category that would deserve it. If they want it then they need to show it. If they still do not, even though you respond with respect (at least once), then let the games begin. At some point turning the other cheek simply lands you with a face that looks like an eggplant...

[bperetto]

nite41 said:

Who doesn't want a girl friend / wife like that???
If human beings were laptops, George Bush would be a Windows-based laptop and Barack Obama would be a Mac!

I'd rather the housewife than the shallow bimbo.
But, hey, I'll agree with you on the president part! All-Business, Less Costly, Get-the-Job-Done Windows versus Trendy, Brainwashing, Do-Nothing Mac

[nite41]

alky

I am not going to react now. haha

Enjoy.

[nite41]

hahaha...

hahahah..

wait..let me breathe....

hahahah....

[WinTard]

I understand what you are saying.

Whereas for me, I decided long ago, that I will not let people push my buttons, or pull the strings... So I pick and choose my fights, but am never provoked into one.

If you are not in charge of yourself, then who is?

You can recognize the stature of someone, by what makes them mad.

So I agree with you, fight back, but on your terms!

~~~~~~~~~~
We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it.
~ Abraham Lincoln, 1809-1865, 16th President of the United States

[MarkHernandez]

Hey, if you are on a budget, you don't buy a high end car either. That's totally okay!

Here's a saying that should be on everyone's lips...

"Use a Mac when you can, a PC when you must."

On a Mac, you can run both OSes seamlessly and have your cake and eat it too. If you can't afford it, get a PC and you'll be okay.

End of discussion.

[rasmasyean]

@nite41:
I DID say that except for the "art niche", but you seem to have skipped that part.
And besides, I do believe being good in "arts" sometimes has a trade-off for computer skills hence talking advantage of Mac's ease of use helps in this regard. It's the old emotion vs. logic brain concept.
The "scientists" who use it are often good with computers but it's a matter of porting over old unix programs and/or people and is thus a budget thing. And they get a better gui than XWindows, etc.


And often open sourcers do something someone thought was cool rather than consider the end-user. You got that backwards. Proprietary software work with end-users' real-world needs (although they have to compromise and cater to the majority customers) but can't satisfy everyone. Support for open source is practically non-existent as you have to DIY most of the time.

And Linux is not more complicated than Windows on the upper end. Windows is just easier to use on the lower-end because it has a "better" UI. Linux is just complicated period. But a decent "hobbyist" or other person without any formal training can "read-up on" Linux and pretty much master most parts of it. For Windows, they offer professional training to people who already have college degrees and/or certifications in specific "parts" of the Windows environment. And often you can only gain from these courses when you have had years of real-world business experience. It's much harder to master Windows without guidance because its sophistication is truly unmatched when you consider any other OS. THAT is why businesses use it. Microsoft Office is only a small part of the equation.

One of the reasons why you hear Linux's difficulty of use is equated to sophistication (even as its base hasn't truly changed much in over a decade), is because of kids who haven't seen anything yet tout their "genius IQ's" or whatever because they were able to dig into all sorts of computer functions with Linux. Then you have American pop-culture around "geeks" and "haxors" inflate their egos more. I don't blame them as they don't really know what's out there and how things really work and it's good to have confidence in one's ability as it may lead to accomplishments later on. But of course, the truth is something else.

[TechieXP]

did we read the same article.
First - what you said about ram was untrue. How much ram is used by the OS varies. Just like all versions of OSX uses a certain amount of ram, this also applies to Windows. 2GB of ram is sufficient for most system Mac or Windows PC. With laptop you definitely want to get one that will allow for adding more. When you place more ram in, WIndows NT does have a great memory manager and it doesn't simply suck it all up. Based on my desktop system which has 4GB of ram and has 8GB capacity, Windows Vista as ba as many try to pawn it off only uses 500MB of it. However Mine uses a bit more because I eliminated other bottlenecks. For example, it is suggested that if you gave 2GB of ram or more, you can eliminate the SWAP file and run Windows from ram. I also try to eliminate as many memory resident program as possible. Programs like Office and Yahoo create memory resident programs that help to lauch the software a bit quicker. In my usage...I found that if your system is fast enough having software pre-running doesn't make that much of a difference.

3rd party software? The guy mentioned that unlike the Windows PC, the Macs come with the iLife Suite. However what Windows comes with just buy itself is sufficent for a typical users. Microsoft Works is very similar to Word, it just doesn't have all the extra stuff. But it is well beyond WordPad. MS PAint is much better with doing simple editing of pictures...and MSFT offers free stuff on Windows Live.

However with both you stand to have to buy software either way. When I visit Apple Store, It is rare I see a ac purchased without Mac Office.
The article to e wasn't as biased as usual. I think it was a bit more far. He made factual statements in the when it comes to have a fix budget to make a computer purchase, you stand to get more with a Windows PC. I don't care about the Windows attack when they say Windows has problems. In all fairness you potentially will have problems with either. Per as usual they always pick on Windows. Just to set the record straight, not everyone who uses Windows have problems. I to this date don't have problems on a daily basis using Windows. Also here at y office we have 4 MacBooks. I have played with them and set them up for use by our Project Managers to use when they go one the road. After using Windows for so many years and just knowing where everything is an the shortcuts it was a bit of a learning curb. In my opinion, if a person has never used a computer ever, then it will be easier to teach them either OS. But it has been proven that it is easier to go from OSX to Windows, then the other way around.

But you are right you do have to look at everything. However some things are a given and really don't need to be addressed every time. When you buy a PC it is a fact it will come with an OS, whether Mac or Windows based. When choosing the OS, the main idea should be father then just your everyday usage. Do you plan to use it at work as well, or school? Which OS is going to offer the most compatibility where you plan to use it. In a typical Windows or OSX environment, either OS is sufficient for day to day tasks. If you plan to use it on an Enterprise level, then Windows has to be the way to go...

The next choice should be the additional software you plan to use. A typical user could use either OS as they both contain enough to get you started. And many know how to go online and fine whatever else they need. Since Macs run Windows too, application issues are less of a problem. But fact is Macs don't run Windows like PC's run Windows. Anyone who says Windows runs better on a Mac isn't telling the truth in full.

One of the key things he mention is how Apple laptops skimp out on hardware. PC in most configurations will give you more drive space, faster drive speed...in some cases if you shop very well you can even get a better display. For $2000 you can get a laptop with a WUXVGA screen which have teh highest resolutions. Something he failed to mention. Also are 2 USB ports enough? Probably not. Where possible many laptop users like at home or office hookup an typical keyboard and mouse. I believe one of the Macbooks doesn't have a CDROM...so if you're out of ports how do you hook it up? At least PC based laptop have port replicators you can buy...but most PC's have all the connections you need. Plenty of USB, along with VGA, HDMI, DVI, PCI Express and more. Some models even still offer infrared.

There is plenty more to consider. Security is always going to be an issue and Windows users already know we have a bigger problem. But it is no more a problem then building a house in a high crime area. All you do is protect yourself. There are plenty of free programs that work just as good as the ones you pay for. I am a smart shopper...i don't know when it was when I actually bought any software...oh..i bought Vista.

Many ppl who need fancy commercial software don't buy it anyways. Either their company does, or they own there own company where it is a business expense so thus it is a tax deductions. For the rest of us, most users I see usually purchase the cheapest version of MS Office. I am not sure you need more. For typical photo editing, Photoshop is really to much...Corel makes a software that cost less than $100. But again, many very smart computer users don't ever buy software...

I dont care how biased PCWorld is towards Macs. The real world always tells the story. It is cool to get suggestions...but its your money, and you know what you need. Take what you read with a grain of salt, and just check out was is there for yourself.

When it comes to Apple products, it is best to get it straight from the horses mouth. For every one single Apple computer, just remember you will fine about 3 options for the same hardware from each Windows PC brand. With more options you are sure to get a better pricing...and I agree Apple makes quality products...and does everyone else...Also Dell and HP offer fancier laptops that have teh same features and the Mac. He compared a dell that wasn't a business laptop...it was a consumer line. The Dell Latitude is the business laptop and are better comparisons to the MacBook Pro. The typical Macbook which is more consumer based is fair up against Dell's Inspiron or Studio lineup. I prefer Dell over HP/Compaq. But that is from experience. I think dell has excellent service.

Also there are non OEM varities of laptops that will match Apple in quality, ThinkPad (Lenovo), Vaio (Sony), Alienware and Asus all offer ultra high quality laptops that match Apple in quality and workmanship....Asus offers a quadcore laptop for 1999...

As far as battery power which can be an issue. Here in Chicago, the library is the only place I know of where they don't allow you to plug in. if you plan to use a latop from any brand for more then 2hours you need you plug. Battery life is based on what you're actually doing. Even Macs die if you're doing hardcore tasks in 3hours or less...6hrs from any laptop is good...no matter who makes it. Gaming laptops get less, if you're gaming. However All PC laptop feature SpeedStep and only boost up if you need them too. Most time they are running at 1/2 speed using very lil battery. Its teh screens that use up the battery more. If you're in a well lit room, simply drop the resolution down, or lower the brightness...or plg it in...that is what teh adapter is for. And never set a laptop directly on the floor. It grounds out the batteries.

[TechieXP]

Here in Chicago we have lots of colleges that use the Mac. I also found that other users who aren't using them for school or work are also associated with specific groups. I don't want to mention any but I see it here.

Most students who have them, use either the 13 inch Macbook or the lowest end MacBook Pro. If you buy them through the school you will get them for less. And they aren't buying them upfront with cash all the time, it is usually written in with school loans. Here in Chicago, Macs are even sold in certain areas at all because no one is going to buy them. Our Apple store is located on the most expensive street here...North Micigan Ave near Water Tower Place. There is nothing cheap on this Magnificent Mile. Several of our colleges deal with mead, like music, video and art and of course publishing. These are areas where Macs once excelled. Now there are just as many options for Windows to do the same. Many Macs users have software they prefer to do tasks...same in Windows.

This article to me is just a spinoff of the what yiu get for $1000 Mac vs Windows. Before PCWorld wastes time doing the $3000 mark lets make it easy. No matter what you have to spend for hardware, a Windows PC is going to offer more options at a better price. However to be fair, since Macs are high end computers, then it is only fair to compare them to high end Windows PC's. A student in my opinion shouldn't need any computer that cost more than $1000 period. To do homework, type a thesus, email, yahoo, facebook, myspace, msn and so much more...you don't need a $2000 computer on either side.

For business men the choice becomes if this is a personal purchase or a divided purchase. If it is personal then look at both platforms. If it is business related and compatibility is an issue a Windows based system could be better. However since Macs run Windows too (why would u) then it doesn't matter. But hey you can run OSX on any pc if you know how. Apple isn't going to give it away bec it is leverage.

A Windows based PC will typical offer more hardware wise then any close spec'd Mac. Remember Macs are all made by one company, while Windows based PC's are made by several. There is always a better deal on the Windows side.

And for thosw ho continue to drop the more or less issue with Windows vs OSX. GROW UP. Yes Windows has problems, but smart Windows users don't have problems...or any more problems then they should have. I have personally been using Windows since 3.11 and I have yet to ever get a virus. Just remember viruses only became an issue in the 90's...in the 80's when internet was still an idea, neither MSFT or Apple coded for protection. They both are still learning....however the fact that Windows is used by more ppl means MSFT had to do something about it more sooner. Apple is still behind..maybe they don't feel they have to rush. Security through Obscurity? Maybe...just because your house is in a quiet suburb, doesn't mean you shouldn't protect it.

Securia has proven and so have others that Windows Vista is the safest OS on the planet right now, up against any other OS...including Macs...since more ppl use Windows, more ppl attack Windows. If you had $1 and you wanted to play the lottery...are you going to buy a scratch off ticket? Or go for the big money?

Another way to look at it...The Feds don't use Macs...they use Windows. If Windows was unsafe, do you think the Feds would be using it? Think about all the companies that protect your identity? In recent months..companies that got exploited were using Unix based server...and remember OSX is a version of Unix. Facebook and others were hacked..and they dont use Windows...wow!

Everyone who rants in my opinion especially if they own a mac...the only thing they always drop bec they can no more explain why Apple charges ore money for glamorized PC hardware that isn't expensive...is to attack Windows issues. If Windows was that bad, then why does Windows run the world? Software doesn't screw up the world, it is the issues of it by people that does. The abuse effect everyone. And as per usual...certain groups get attacked more...example...don't gays and lesbians get targeted more then heterosexuals? Don't minorities, get targeted more then other groups? Don't soe religious organizations have more issues then others? List goes on. It just a part of life...u can't totally avoid it...u can only try to hide.

[TechieXP]

I agree. And that is why the biased comes in.
But I think you keep forgetting something. For a person who just needs performance at a low price...
The majority of computer users aren't business class. They are typical everyday users who are in locations where expensive isn't an option. If I was in college as high as school loans are, why would i take out an additional $2000 just for a single item. 1/2 of that could be used for important things like books.

Businessmen in most cases buy using the company, so it is a tax deduction. Or many have there own business again a tax deduction. What about us normal everyday people? Whay does an everyday Joe need a $2000 laptop.

I agree when you say, comparting a top rage laptop with a consumer model is unfair. And as you stated if you compare a Mac to Premium Windows based PC's teh swing is $200 - $400 in cost in either direction. However you have more options on the pc side bec you have more MFR's lowering cost. Everything else is simply based on what you actually need...not just want. I am sure EVERYONE in the world would like an expensive computer...BUT WE ALL CAN'T HAVE ONE.

[TechieXP]

I was think too. Dual-booting. It is an okay option...but on a laptop why? if the one single OS doesn't give you what you need, then it means you didn't choose the right one. Buying 2 OS's to e isn't a smart buy. If compatibility is what you need..no OS does it better than Windows. if you want to get away from Windows then you have Linux or OSX...but even with a desktop I see no need in booting more than one beyond testing purposes. Sure if u have Vista, you may have some software issue so you need to have XP. That makes sense. If you install 2 so that you can learn another to be proficient or to gain knowledge...that is ok too.

But I am curious so that I can learn...I want to hear from a Mac user that dualboots Windows on the same system. Explain why you do it. From what I seen of users who boot Windows on a Mac, they state they use Windows most of the time. So why go out and spend 20% to 40% more just to run Windows?

Even if you in business, use Windows at work and OSX at home...you will still use Windows MOST of the time...so Windows at 199.99 vs OSX at 129.00 - if you're using the most expensive option more than 75% of the time...didn't you waste money on the other option?

If I have a garage and there is a Lexus and a Camry together and I drive the Lexus more, what is the other car for? And they are the same car. The Cary and Lexus 3 and 4 series use the same chassis...just like Windows and OSX use x86... why buy 2 of the same thing? What is the benefit? Bec I don't see any. I see in my opinion...2 OS that basically can do all on some level the same things...we even share developers, and hardware. The only different is the OS and that is taste. I also look at this....in spending $1000 or $2000...if you have 2 OS's...you buy a set of software for one, and a set for the other. At some point...you will ahve similar software on both. Where is your savings? In simple terms, Macs will cost more buying double...

On CL the other day, one guy had a MacBook Pro he was selling for $2700. He was selling a bunch of extras like an Airport (i know I didn't spell it right) and soe other stuff. He had this stuff 18 months. He spent $4000 total and is selling for only $2700? - http://chicago.craig...1110645964.html

There are several ads like this one...are they or did he get the value of what he spent...NO and he is going to lose a bit more...
For those who justify the expense of 2 operating system bec there is a pure reasonable need...i am not taking about you. I am talking about the typical users. If you were dual-booting OSX with Linux, or Windows with Linux, then it would make since be Linux stuff is free. Owning to commercial based software on a single system...and having to buy double the commercial software to complete tasks seems like a lose lose situation even if you are rich.

But its an option and I just want someone to explain there view. Just as one commented here in this thread...when choosing your buy, the cost of teh hardware is only part of the deal. if what the OS came with was enough, then you wouldn't need anything else. Windows comes with a lot...other than Office...most don't need to buy anything else. If OSX truly had everything you wouldn't need iLife. from what i seen iLife gives OSX programs that are already built into Windows to make it more fair. However if you think about it...OSX cost 129. whether you purchase the box or its preinstalled. Windows actually cost less preinstalled vs retail box. Apple makes up the rest in the cost of the computer. Since Windows based PC's cost less, you have money to spend on whatever else you need.

Everyone doesn't need Office. MS Works is free with most PC's and suffices for typical Word files. Not everyone needs Outlook, Powerpoint, Access and Excel. And either can be purchased as standalone apps for about $80. With the money you save getting Windows, you can still get Office and a good photo editor...for under $1000. If you can spend $2k...you have more options.

[MarioJP]

yea that does not make sense at all if you have a mac only to be using windows on a mac most of the time LOL. With that said the number one reason why i like pc's because of virtualization and its taking off pretty quick. It has gotten so good thanks to more powerful hardware at a price all time low i have no need to dual boot anymore. Running xp and vista for dual boot is waste of time and money. Running vista and having xp virtualize like in vmware makes perfect sense. I even run linux on virtualization.


Now the only time you would need to dual boot if you doing some serious 3D stuff. But for everything else virtualization is the way to go. This comercial does makes sense if you look at the big picture sure it might of been just a tad blown out of context but overall it does have a point. Even mid range pc's nowadays comes with alot of horsepower under the hood that also including laptops. When you buy a apple notebook computer what you really buying is engineering at its finest perfection. Though i dont know even macbooks are perfect for that matter lol.

[WinTard]

It won't be long for those who wish to, to also virtualize anything, like OS X. PC's can do anything!