[asiafish]

quackadilly said:

+Yup. I like using my
MacBook Pro ALMOST as much as I enjoy driving my Mercedes. Quality,
luxury and performance are always a good value.+





So my last car, Toyota Solara '02, was not a good car just because it was only half the cost of your Mercedes? And my '07 Hyundai Tiburon is crap too? I very much like both cars.

Solara is a good car, but dreadfully boring. Tiburon, nice for the teenage set, zero resale value and not the most comfortable car around.

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Quality - Check

A to B dependability is not the only measure of quality. Solidity of the structure, lack of squeeks and rattles, sporty handling (inherently inferior in a front-drive car) and the look and feel of all the many parts inside and out.

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Luxury - Sure there's not a coffee maker in it but, Check

Yeah right. Power windows and cruise control are not the definition of luxury. Luxury is the little touches that make a car a delight to own and drive every day. Higher quality (read expensive) suspension components that are still smooth and sporty when the road sucks. Extra sound deadening and stiffer structure for that legendary Mercedes Benz "Bank Vault" thunk when you close the door. I'm not saying the Solara or the Tiburon are bad cars, they are both very nice entries in their respective price classes, but they do not compete with Mercedes Benz.

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Good Value - Double Check.

You paid less, you got less.

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Luxury is a funny thing. What makes a car (PC) luxurious? The name? Think about Sony.....expensive but not really better.......now Apple.....Mercedes, Buik,Chrysler, Lexus.......

Personally I never liked Sony computers and won't likely buy one. Luxury exists in many places and forms. A Cadillac DTS is more luxurious than a Buick Lucerne, sells for a higher price, and yet both are good values, and structurally (though not mechanically) both are actually the same car. The Buick is a much better car than the cheaper Buick LaCrosse, which is not a Cadillac platform-mate, because Buick benefitted greatly form Cadillac's input in the structure.

Sony computers are more luxurious than the typical Dell (though the new Adamo is clearly a luxury model). Not because its better, just because it has more elegant design and more thoughtful touches to make owning and using it more of a pleasure.

Luxury isn't always a good thing and isn't always the right choice. I drive about 5,000 miles per month in my Mercedes, so it had better be a very nice place to spend all of that time. In that role, a luxury car was a good value. I also have a Ford F-150 pickup truck that is without any doubt the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It has 47,000 miles on it now, and has needed nothing except oil changes to date. It also has plain vinyl seats, crank windows, manual locks and mirrors and the base V6 engine. It is a terrific truck that would not perform its tasks (hauling stuff) any better if it were a loaded King Ranch model than the base XL model I bought.

Its the same with a Mac or any other high-end PC. Its the little touches that make a luxury model more pleasant to own and use everyday, and that may, or may not be worth paying for. If you just work numbers in a spreadsheet and surf the web, a Mac is probably a waste of money.

Just like a super-luxury trim level is a waste of money on a truck you buy just to carry stuff, while if you use your computer for entertainment, research, business and pleasure, spending a lot of time with it, carrying it all over the place, etc., then buying a luxury model may make sense. Again with the truck, if you buy it to carry stuff but also spend A LOT of your time driving it, then those luxury options make a lot more sense.
Does my Kawasaki 650R suck because it's 2 grand less than the ZX6? Not by a long shot. It's still fun, it's comfortable as hell compared to a "real" crotch rocket, and it still does 0-60 in like 4 seconds. Plus I saved $2000, allowing me to redo the whole exhaust system and redo brake lines and the electricals like power commander and the ignition module.
0-60 in 4 seconds, wow, thats slow for a motorcycle. You get what you pay for. Your 650R is a cheaper bike than the ZX6 because it is made with cheaper components. On the street for casual riding the 650R may even be a better bike than the ZX6, but on a track in the hands of a skilled rider, that ZX6 will leave you for dead.
Talk about value........ ok lets go.
Why? You seem to think value is the same as low price. It is not.

[asiafish]

quackadilly said:

Yeah, it will go from an hour of battery life to 90 minutes. Wow!




Come on, you're not supposed to play games on battery power. At least
with a PC, you can play games right? lol (Exaggeration, but you get the
point)

Who said anything about playing games on battery power? I am going to a legal conference next month and will be away from power all day for each of the three days. With my ThinkPad T400 running on its 9 cell with the ultrabay battery I have 13 hours of battery life. I probably won't even need 8 hours, but I will definitely need more than 2.

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That's what all of the PC zealots on this forum do. They say that thin and light don't matter, but they do.



Did they say it matters? No....right? Let them speak for themselves....don't put words in their mouths.......lawyers....... (dry humor, but again, you get the point)

Get what point? Lawyers are computer users just like everyone else. I'm not a Mac zealot by a long shot, but I am a strong advocate for buying premium hardware, new if you can afford it, used if you can't.

[quackadilly]

You seem to think value is the same as low price. It is not.


But it is. Price is 1 of 2 factors in value. Value is [Some metric] per dollar. PER DOLLAR.

.2 seconds for $3000 is not a good value to me. (650R to ZX6)

But this is the point I'm trying to make. User value is based on CUSTOMER PERCEIVED VALUE and COST.

Your Mercedes is useless to me. I'd rather have a Viper or a Corvette. Does that mean Mercedes sucks.....no.




Anyways....I'm off to the beach......good luck fish.

[artzy65]

Hold it right there... I didn't say faster.

Like I said, I made my choice.

[TechieXP]

Carbon Fiber a more expensive plastic. I use to train to be a cyclist while in Florida, and I use to be aazed how these rich guys would show off by going out an buying expensive carbon fiber bikes, yet couldn't even keep up with me riding a heavier aluminum fraed one.

Comparison - My Aluminum Cannondale CAD8 with Shimano 105 costed me about $1300. The exact same bike with carbon fiber frame is just under $3000.
Now yes it is a better bike...but not with a cheesy slow rider on it. No matter how great or expensive teh machine is...is is only as good as the person using it. Which means for most to use a Mac at the extra cost and gaining very little benefit to only install Windows later seems like a $2000 mistake.

I understand what you said...and yes machined aluminum is a bit more expensive? Hmmm...All machining does is smooth out the ruff surface. If you were building a wood flooring...you could sand it by hand which would take all day...or use a machine like a electric sander and get done in hours. All machining does is give it a polished look. And depending on how much or the setting of the machine...you can have that shiny chrome look...or the grain ttpe look you see on the Macs. So you think that is worth paying $1500 for the case? Be my guess.

I am not at all saying the fancy finish is nice because it certainly is. But where I live, if someone decides to break in my house...I rather my laptop be unseen amongst all my other black furniture...vs the shiny silver laptop sticking out like a sore thumb.

It like cars that have the wood grain finishes inside. Of course a Jaquar would be considered emaculate...and at about $80,000 is surely a nice touch to the look and feel. And that is fine for a car that will rarely leave the garage. A laptop...is going to be portable. And no matter how careful you are...you or someone else is going to drop it. Plastic...if it breaks I have options. I can go on EBAY and get the full housing for almost any make and model. Can you do so for Macs...I am sure...however the PC laptop is a bit more forgiving when it comes to taking it apart.

Asiafish as high values in taste. I do as well when it comes to some things. However I avoid fads. I like iPhone, but I chose the Blackberry Storm instead...and when Blackberries first came out I said I'd never buy one...but the Storm to good to pass up..especially at buy one get one free on the best network in the USA. Sprint too uses EVDO, which is better than GSM...but Verizon at the very least is way better than ATT. Again another expensive company that doesn't provide a benefit over its nearest competitors...perfect relationship for Apple I guess. I do agree with Asia as far as the quality and design of Macs and as he and I have said when it comes to highend computers, Apple is right there in the same price range. And that is a perfect range for businessmen who either own their own business or has a business who provides the computer for them. Dell certainly isn't bad and they have huge business lineup...and most businesses I know use Dell.

What a laptop looks like doesn't matter to me...it whats under the hood. And as I look at my new quadcore ASUS that costed me just over $2500 with some extras, I have no regrets on my purchase. I don't care that it is heavy...i don't care that the battery is only going to last 3 hours unplugged...I don't care if it doesn't look as pretty as a Mac. When it comes to work...those types of products don't look pretty...

We all like what we like...there is nothing wrong with using plastic. If Aluminum was the best option then as was said by others...why isn't it used for helmets? Gloves? Clothes? Jock Straps? Shoulder Pads? Knee Pads? Condoms? And God forbid you walk out in the rain...you might get struck by lightning---lol sarcasm

[TechieXP]

and before i get ragged...i am aware Carbon Fiber isn't plastic...it can be used in many ways. The most common is cutting them into strands. When it comes to bikes...strands are used to wrap around plastic tubes..to give them strength and rigidly. But unless metal frames...they flex and feel as if teh bike is made out of rubber-bands...and God forbid at the beginning of the race a biker wipes out...if you crash...the frame could snap....good thing its ur sponsor paying for it. Being more expensive isn't always better...it just means when it breaks it cost more to fix. Ot it can't be fixed...which means you'd have to replace..which is more expensive then fixing. With a Mac...if you manage to dent it or crack it...replacing it is way more expesive if you can't do it yourself...and if Apple's name is stamped on it...Doing-It-Yourself...isn't an option.

[TechieXP]

Remember Saturn uses plastic doors. Comes in handy in parking lots where people like to dent you with their are or carts. uch easier to fix then sheet metal. In fact you can just take a wet plunger and pull it out...with sheet metal it will likely leave a crease. Plastic...bad on the ecosystem...easier on the wallet.

[TechieXP]

I concur...great technology...with only one problem...cost. But was a better option over DVD-R/RW..especially when it comes to rewriting data. You basely could get a lifetime of usage from one disk...and it had its own protective covering...no need to buy extra CD sleeves.

[TechieXP]

Yep you can still purchase any component of Office as a stand-alone application. ot sure why you would want to...unless you only needs one of them. But if you need 2 then you may as well get the lowest cost suite as you will get the most used ones. Not a bad deal. Budles are always less then purchasing separately.

I don't think we are defending Microsoft. There are those of us who like using their software. And it a MAJORITY vs the other 2 MINORITY options. I agree that the majority isn't always the best...but one minority was here first yet it didn't stay that way long...and the other option is barely heavy enough to even move the scale.

Free can't be the best option in all cases...I know you want to leave business out...but look at it this way. What people use at work...thwy will use at home...what people use at school they will use at home...what people use at a friends house is what they will use at home. None of those has found Linux to be an invited guess. If Linux being free was the ultimate solution...then it seems businesses who are always looking to pinch pennies would spend millions to break down their billion dollar infrastructure to make sure it is free forever. But why aren't they? When something is free there is always a string attached. Free means it usually isn't as good as what you buy...meaning there is something wrong with it. If you were in a bar and you were looking to get that date for the nite...wouldn't you be a bit suspect if someone offered it too you for free? What about if someone was giving you the keys to a brand new house or car...?

Unlike Windows and OSX...Linux drawback outweight its benefits. Yes it has gotten so much better...but when you already have better whay change? Windows and OSX basically have the OS market tied up. Unless someone comes up with something that is better those 2 will remain mainstream for at least another decade or more. In 40 years MSFT only lost 11% market share...and gained back 4% of that from Mac users who install Windows.

I am willing to bet once businesses adopt Linux, and OEM's push out enough systems with a favorable distro that mimics Windows in usability, then Linux will certainly becoe the OS of choice. However with companies like Oracle and Google...trying to eliminate the desktop all together and have us just using appliiances and having an internet that is fast enough to have full size applications being used through a browser...Windows, OSX and Linux will certainly become history. A Windows PC will be nothing more then a better way to play games...since Linux and OSX are bad at it.

An OS has to be good at everything they are designed to do. Windows does work and play. Pc's aren't just for work..for some like me that is also their home entertainment system. Why spend extra money on a DVD player, and other audio equipment that can cost as much as $10K...when I have have it all in one single box that I can network in every single room for 1/2. Try that with OSX..or Linux without spending extra for stuff I don't want.

Windows surely has its issues...but what what it offers...I have no complaints. And the majority of us don't have any complaints either. Windows isn't perfect...but is is better then the ones that claim to be...

The shittiest OS as you say...mangae to set a standard or 90% of the world...while the most perfect OS are mostly only found here in the USA.
Apple with teh Mac has a less than 3% pentration beyond the fenses of the USA. Linux has done a bit better in poor countries where people can't afford computers and someone decided we all should have one. Linux is a bebefit for people who are broke. And for businesses who use it behid the seens. I have yet to walk into an office and see anyone using Linux as a desktop OS...it is aways on a server or being used as a firewall or someother application...like I do here at our office. I use it to run our phone system. But its crappy...lots of dropped calls...bad connections...but I am workin on it. However it isn't a Linux problem...its the cheesy free software that is suppose to work with it.

[Evildave]

I wonder where you folks keep coming up with that 'Less than 3%' figure?

http://marketshare.h...t.aspx?qprid=9#

Macs are approaching 10% (probably next month) markey share. 100,000,000 users.

Linux has over 1% now, (over 10,000,000 users).

I had to go back as far as the graph would go (October, 2004) and still found over 3% market share.

Whereas Microsoft's vaunted '96%' in that same period fell to less than 88%, and that decline has been steadily accelerating.

No wonder PC luzers keep running cruddy old Windoze. They're stuck in the stone age.

[asiafish]

TechieXP said:

Carbon Fiber a more expensive plastic. I use to train to be a cyclist while in Florida, and I use to be aazed how these rich guys would show off by going out an buying expensive carbon fiber bikes, yet couldn't even keep up with me riding a heavier aluminum fraed one.

And that relates to aluminum framed Macs how? Apple does the aluminum cases because at a given weight they are stronger than a conventional metal frame with plastic cover. Equally important, for a given strength level, they are thinner. Thin and light, two design priorities in Apple laptops.

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Comparison - My Aluminum Cannondale CAD8 with Shimano 105 costed me about $1300. The exact same bike with carbon fiber frame is just under $3000.
Now yes it is a better bike...but not with a cheesy slow rider on it. No matter how great or expensive teh machine is...is is only as good as the person using it. Which means for most to use a Mac at the extra cost and gaining very little benefit to only install Windows later seems like a $2000 mistake.

I don't know any Mac users who use Windows as the primary OS on their Mac. Most Mac users don't install Windows at all, and those that do, either use Parallels for a single application or Boot Camp to play games.

Also, its not that they install Windows because they would rather have a PC, they install Windows because they want BOTH A MAC AND A PC. The only difference, with Boot Camp and/or Parallels they can have a Mac and a PC IN ONE CASE, at half the size and weight of carrying one of each. Two computer for the price of one!

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I understand what you said...and yes machined aluminum is a bit more expensive? Hmmm...All machining does is smooth out the ruff surface. If you were building a wood flooring...you could sand it by hand which would take all day...or use a machine like a electric sander and get done in hours. All machining does is give it a polished look. And depending on how much or the setting of the machine...you can have that shiny chrome look...or the grain ttpe look you see on the Macs. So you think that is worth paying $1500 for the case? Be my guess.

No, machining takes a single block, which is much stronger than an assembly of parts, and allows it to be shaped precisely, including all mounting points. Fewer parts, increased strength, decreased size and decreased weight. Its nothing at all to do with sanding.

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I am not at all saying the fancy finish is nice because it certainly is. But where I live, if someone decides to break in my house...I rather my laptop be unseen amongst all my other black furniture...vs the shiny silver laptop sticking out like a sore thumb.

So you deliberately buy ugly computers in the hope that a potential thief will overlook them? Do you buy tiny TVs and plastic jewelry too?

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It like cars that have the wood grain finishes inside. Of course a Jaquar would be considered emaculate...and at about $80,000 is surely a nice touch to the look and feel. And that is fine for a car that will rarely leave the garage. A laptop...is going to be portable. And no matter how careful you are...you or someone else is going to drop it. Plastic...if it breaks I have options. I can go on EBAY and get the full housing for almost any make and model. Can you do so for Macs...I am sure...however the PC laptop is a bit more forgiving when it comes to taking it apart.

A laptop is very portable you say, so it should be as small, thin, light and strong as possible. Apple does a very good job here, as does Lenovo. Panasonic's Toughbook business models (as opposed to the full-mil-spec ones) are even better in that regard, starting in the 3 lb range and still quite strong. I came very close to buying one instead of the ThinkPad T400.
Asiafish as high values in taste. I do as well when it comes to some things. However I avoid fads. I like iPhone, but I chose the Blackberry Storm instead...and when Blackberries first came out I said I'd never buy one...but the Storm to good to pass up..especially at buy one get one free on the best network in the USA. Sprint too uses EVDO, which is better than GSM...but Verizon at the very least is way better than ATT. Again another expensive company that doesn't provide a benefit over its nearest competitors...perfect relationship for Apple I guess. I do agree with Asia as far as the quality and design of Macs and as he and I have said when it comes to highend computers, Apple is right there in the same price range. And that is a perfect range for businessmen who either own their own business or has a business who provides the computer for them. Dell certainly isn't bad and they have huge business lineup...and most businesses I know use Dell.

Dell is fine in certain things, crap in others. My business uses a 3-year-old Dell server that has been excellent and should remain so for years to come. Of course, it wasn't cheap. The Dells that most businesses use are the business models, which are built MUCH better than the consumer models. They have to be, or businesses will stop buying them.
What a laptop looks like doesn't matter to me...it whats under the hood. And as I look at my new quadcore ASUS that costed me just over $2500 with some extras, I have no regrets on my purchase. I don't care that it is heavy...i don't care that the battery is only going to last 3 hours unplugged...I don't care if it doesn't look as pretty as a Mac. When it comes to work...those types of products don't look pretty...

I agree, looks don't matter much. My new ThinkPad was just as expensive as a MacBook, and it extremely dull-looking, like every other ThinkPad since 1993. I bought it for the excellent keyboard, switchable graphics, small size, light weight and astounding battery life, not for good looks, which it clearly lacks. It actually looks downright ugly and imbalanced with the massive 9 cell battery hanging off the back.

A 9 lb laptop with 3 hour battery life, however, is simply not very portable. Try using that thing as a student, an hour in one class, two hours in another, an hour outside on the quad, then two more hours of class. A 13" MacBook with its 5 hour battery life would be a good fit here, while a 9 hour T400 is even better. Also, those smaller 12 to 14" models won't take up all of your desk space so you can actually have a book out, maybe a soda or cup of coffee, or a microphone.
We all like what we like...there is nothing wrong with using plastic. If Aluminum was the best option then as was said by others...why isn't it used for helmets? Gloves? Clothes? Jock Straps? Shoulder Pads? Knee Pads? Condoms? And God forbid you walk out in the rain...you might get struck by lightning---lol sarcasm

There is nothing wrong with plastic and aluminum is not the best for every machine. My MacBookPro has a few scratches already. Lenovo's high carbon content plastic is very strong and is backed by a magnesium rollcage. This is no-doubt as strong as the MacBook Pro, perhaps even stronger. It is also thicker. I like the hardware of my ThinkPad T400 better than the hardware of my MacBook Pro. Of course, the MacBook Pro is still the main work computer because OS X is a better tool for my typical court day. If the production Windows 7 suspends and resumes as quickly and reliably, I'll probably switch to the ThinkPad as my primary computer as instant, reliable sleep and wake is THE KILLER APP for a laptop in my work day.

Oh, aluminum is non-conductive.

[asiafish]

TechieXP said:

Remember Saturn uses plastic doors. Comes in handy in parking lots where people like to dent you with their are or carts. uch easier to fix then sheet metal. In fact you can just take a wet plunger and pull it out...with sheet metal it will likely leave a crease. Plastic...bad on the ecosystem...easier on the wallet.

Saturn is one of the divisions that GM is closing, and those plastic panels went out with the old L series. Current Saturns are just like every other car with metal body panels, and when the brand folds, will have dismal resale value.

[asiafish]

TechieXP said:

I concur...great technology...with only one problem...cost. But was a better option over DVD-R/RW..especially when it comes to rewriting data. You basely could get a lifetime of usage from one disk...and it had its own protective covering...no need to buy extra CD sleeves.

My 1999 Power Mac G4 had DVD-RAM, but I never used it. CDR and external hard drives (firewire, of course) satisfy most of my storage needs, at a lower price.

[WinTard]

Firewire is a market flop. Virtually no acceptance, or ubiquity. Not necessarily technically. But in terms of interoperability. Even Macs use USB. And forget the next version of Firewire, or USB numbers. They will both match performance as required. As for connecting external drives or high-speed devices, eSATA is the way to go. You don't want to supply power to the external high-performance device anyways. Especially not from a battery powered laptop.

As far as DVD RAM, I've got a universal drive on my 64-bit AMD gaming server. HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4163B A102 011217047F516G5615. Burns/reads/writes +/- everything, including CD's. Not expensive at all. Big deal.

[artzy65]

Whoa, back that wagon train up, pardner... how did you come up with 100,000,000 mac users?
I've tried finding the numbers, to no avail.

[WinTard]

@Evildave

You mean there is only 1B PC users? In a world with 6B humans? Hmmm...

Good point artzy65 !

[Evildave]

Yeah, I remember looking at Saturns (used to have an SC1 that got 36MPG). I was disappointed that GM had utterly crushed the brand. No plastic body panels. Nothing different than any other GM product. Just thoroughly ruined. Basically that decision to do away with everything that made Saturns unique destroyed the brand. Actually long series of decisions. Make an inexpensive economy car 'more powerful' (poor mileage), then do away with its unique selling point (dent-resistant panels). Not that GM has any lack of experience destroying brands. Invest to make something new and different, turn it into just another of the same. Big surprise that what was initially a run-away success became a failure.

Actually, Honda has been following the same model. Go from reasonably inexpensive Civics that easily get 50MPG to newer 'premium' civics that get 26MPG, and sell $24,000 hybrids to get 'good mileage'.

But let's look at a solid brick of metal versus a plastic eggshell chassis full of holes wrapped around your typical notebook computer. Sure, aluminum scratches, but short of getting it wedged in some kind of machinery, that aluminum ingot they milled the chassis and display from probably isn't going to deform or crack.

And though aluminum doesn't conduct electricity well, it is marvelous at conducting heat. The whole chassis is one big heat sink.

[coastie65]

WinTard said:

Firewire is a market flop. Virtually no acceptance, or ubiquity. Not necessarily technically. But in terms of interoperability.

I think you may be right. This thing has a firewire port, that I tend to forget about, until I see it mentioned.

[TechieXP]

we must be of the same minds because I looked it up too.I even went to wikipedia and they didn't say no such thing. I even Google'd...nothing.

From what I remember, Creative offer a DVD-RAM drive, but I'm not saying they are the first. The first one I do remember having I gave to my nephew. It used SCSI as the connector...but is slow as H @ 2x. Which I think that was one reason DVD's to off because they were cheaper and easy to burn...and you could get 100's of blank disks vs the 20 DVD-RAM that would cost $40 vs DVD where you can get 100 for about 30.

I'm not sure if the Mac was first to use it...but if one of the first was a scsi type...then Macs could be one of the first. But I'd like a confirmation.

[rasmasyean]

Mac's last longer because on average, people don't know what to do with them because after they buy it, there's like no games and applications for them worth using and it becomes a sporadic convenient internet kiosk. And they are so expensive that the people who DO use them baby them. Not to mention that PC's are issued a lot. And we all know how people treat work equipment. Heck, I admit I'm no angle. I was pissed off when they took my footrest away and replaced it with one of those mini-boxes in fashion a few years ago. But those sucked so I got a better footrest back after a little while.