[smax013]

Evildave said:

And to complain about learning CLI comands, one may as well complain about all the sounds and symbols needed to express and comprehend thoughts in natural human language.

and

Quote

$ find screenshots/ -type d ( ! -regex "..svn.*" )
| sed "s@(screenshots/)(.*)@"12" "../deploy/images/2.swf"@"
| xargs --max-args=2 ./makeslides.sh

And your typical computer user would respond, but what are you asking me to read Greek when I only know English? (pun-like thing intended)

The key is that is what CLI commands and structure are to most...another language to learn.

[mediaservant]

You're welcome...

I always do static IP's when I can for customers needing to do file sharing. SOMETIMES, if it seems like the right thing to do, I'll let them go with using machine names. But, for users who are clueless, I do static IP's since it's more reliable. DHCP in some pieces of kit will try to keep the machines at the same address by MAC, but it isn't guaranteed...

Here at work we are all static IP and using IP addresses seems to work (work better and/or work: period) for file sharing - and might be the only way for FS btwn linux and windows.

Anecdote:

We have a fancy pants minolta color copier here in the store. It has a static IP on the network. I hadn't taken much time to get any windows boxes set up on it that weren't originally set up for it, and it is a pain to connect a windows box to it, for some reason.

On my linux box, I wanted to set up a USB printer. I went to "add printer" or whatever it is, and not only did it detect the USB printer, it found (in a matter of seconds) every printer in the building, including the minolta and printers attached by USB to OTHER computers, told me the IP's, and was asking to get drivers for them. It automatically got a driver for the minolta, and I was making a test page on it in minutes. No hunting drivers, no hunting for anything, just click and go. On linux. I was floored. How far it's come from my first install of RH5.2 back in 97 -98.....
-----
Thanks mediaservant. I found a snippet of info today searching the web
that may be the key: assign static IP addresses to each of the boxes on
my network instead of letting the DHCP server dole them out. I'll try
that.

Anyway, this illustrates the point several others have made: that
searching to find a solution to a linux "roadblock" can be a
frustrating and time-consuming exercise. Its no wonder many give up in
disgust. Networking with ubuntu should just "work". Like it does so
automatically in (gasp!) Vista.

[WinTard]

Well I couldn't do without the CLI anyway. Under Windows or Linux/Unix. For simple stuff as parsing environment variables. And especially when there isn't an icon to right-click.

{code}
C:>set | find /i "java"
JAVAHOME=C:Program FilesJavajdk1.5.018
Path=C:Program FilesJavajdk1.5.0_18BIN;C:PROGRAM FILESWINDOWS RESOURCE KIT
STOOLS;C:WINDOWSSYSTEM32;C:WINDOWS;C:WINDOWSSYSTEM32WBEM;C:WINDOWSCMD;
C:WINDOWSCMD16;C:PROGRAM FILESPUTTY;C:PROGRAM FILESTORTOISESVNBIN;C:Pro
gram FilesPanda SecurityPanda Antivirus 2008;C:WINDOWSsystem32WindowsPower
Shellv1.0;C:Program FilesIDM Computer SolutionsUltraEdit

C:>
{code}

{code}
$ stty erase ^?
$ . ./setenv.sh
$ uname -a
HP-UX hp-int B.11.31 U ia64 1197241086 unlimited-user license
$ java -version
java version "1.5.0.11"
Java™ 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.5.0.11-07nov200710_59)
Java HotSpot™ Server VM (build 1.5.0.11 jinteg:11.07.07-16:23 IA64, mixed mode)
$ set | grep -i java
JAVA_HOME=/opt/java1.5
PATH=/opt/java1.5/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/usr/contrib/bin:/usr/contrib/Q4/bin:/opt/perl/bin:/opt/ipf/bin:/opt/nettladm/bin:/opt/fcms/bin:/opt/wbem/bin:/opt/wbem/sbin:/opt/sas/bin:/opt/graphics/common/bin:/opt/atok/bin:/usr/bin/X11:/usr/contrib/bin/X11:/opt/secmgmt/bastille/bin:/opt/resmon/bin:/opt/drd/bin:/opt/dsau/bin:/opt/dsau/sbin:/opt/firefox:/opt/gnome/bin:/opt/perf/bin:/usr/contrib/kwdb/bin:/opt/mozilla:/opt/perl32/bin:/opt/perl64/bin:/opt/prm/bin:/opt/sfm/bin:/opt/swm/bin:/opt/secmgmt/spc/bin:/opt/ssh/bin:/opt/swa/bin:/opt/hpsmh/bin:/opt/thunderbird:/opt/wlm/bin:/opt/gwlm/bin:.
$
{code}

{code}
[[appserv@VMRHBS ~]$ uname -a
Linux VMRHBS 2.6.18-53.el5 #1 SMP Wed Oct 10 16:34:19 EDT 2007 x8664 x8664 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[appserv@VMRHBS ~]$ set | grep -i java
JAVAHOME=/usr/java/jdk1.5.018
PATH=/usr/java/jdk1.5.0_18/bin:/usr/kerberos/bin:/usr/local/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/home/appserv/bin:/sbin:
[appserv@VMRHBS ~]$ which java
/usr/java/jdk1.5.0_18/bin/java
[appserv@VMRHBS ~]$ java -version
java version "1.5.0_18"
Java™ 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.5.0_18-b02)
Java HotSpot™ 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.5.0_18-b02, mixed mode)
[appserv@VMRHBS ~]$
{code}

[GetReal]

Wow! Much impressed by the CLI & coding examples scattered here. Just knew someone else could also do it. Wow again!
Some can. Some can't. Some won't. Some don't care. Most not interested. Just a learned skill---for the techie & IT groups.
Little relevance to appreciation or long-term use of any OS by 99% of computer users.








Started with images, then the world needed thousands of years to develop writing---computers have mostly destroyed that within a few decades!

Probably for the best.

I like my GUI (and automatic transmissions).


















* A programmer here (who does use CLI-as last resort).

[Evildave]

rasmasyean said:

Don't let your head explode. Most of those universities have well-funded research projects in computer science, robotics, and such that necessitates them to use Linux for computational purposes. They don't use it because they need to "convert mp3s".

Judging from the fact that a high school geek can learn Linux on their own to an extent where they can nearly master it...
while expensive post-college professional certification programs exist for various "parts" of Windows to fit specific jobs...
it doesn't look like devoting all your time to Linux classifies you with Einstein. But if it makes you feel that way when you use Linux, I guess it explains a lot. Rofl!

You're right, Linux is WAY easier than windoze to master. The
fundamentals don't change every couple of years when Micro$uck suddenly
decides to make their OS a little more like UNIX/Linux in some small
way (like FINALLY adding UAC - and they BOTCHED that horribly).

With open source drivers, and open source software, well, nothing ever 'has to' change. With a built-in security model that's ultra-resistant to infection (not to mention all kinds of non-binary compatibility which makes writing universal worms/viruses/etc. all but impossible), you don't have to 'learn' how to manage half a dozen pieces of 'protection' software.

With free open source software, you don't have to learn to manage licenses or EVER worry about a company getting bought out or otherwise dropping support for the things you use.

With free software, you don't have to managa a BUDGET for software, and can spend the money in more productive ways.

If you need to, you can just grab the whole kernel, driver source, etc. and run your robot in its own version of the OS that never changes, which you can strip down or beed up as you need to. After all, if it already works, there's no reason to 'upgrade' (AKA arbitrarily change) things. If you don't like the newfangled ways to do things, you can just keep using the
old ways that work, and not waste ANY of your time re-learning things you previously
mastered so easily.

[bbvammy]

Linux is too hard, I am going to use Windows ( Point and Click )

Manual Transmission is too hard, I am going to buy automatic which is $1000 more and each repair cost $2000 ( I do know how to drive transmission )

Sport or exercise is too hard, I am going to drive a car ( so, I can get fat )

This topic is too hard, I am going to stop and take the easy way out ]:)

[Evildave]

Yes, but it's such a SIMPLE language, and all of the other languages build on the POSIX standard (i.e. dashes for parameters, forward slashes in paths, backslashes for escaping characters - as opposed to Windoze/DOS with forward slashes for parameters, backslashes in paths, caret '^' for escaping characters). Both use the same redirection ( | to pipe output to another process, > to send output to a file, >> to append output to a file, and < to take input from a file).

So, once you understand that, you can start using the CLI and writing simple batches/scripts.

It's not like memorizing the correct case for der/die/das in German for all nouns, or rules for spelling with ie/ei in English.

In any human language, there are tens of thousands of words and rules for using those words, and concepts behind those words. In computer language, there are dozens of core things to master, and around a hundred or more accessories which you can become familiar with, and look up when you need to. It's not embarassing to need to stop with a computer and RTFM, like it is with talking to human.

Very simple, predictable, straight-forward syntax.

Here's a small rosetta stone for 'learning' how to use the command line.

|(Everything except Windoze)|Windoze CMD/DOS|Meaning|
|ls -l|dir|List files/folders|
|find|dir /s /b|Recursively list files/folders|
|cd|cd|Change directory|
|pushd/popd|pushd/popd|Save, change directory/restore|
|var=value|set var=value|Set a variable to some value|
|$var|%var%|Evaluate a variable|
|$1, $2, $..., $|%1, %2, %|Get individual script arguments, or repeat all arguments|
|rm, rmdir, rm -rf|del, rmdir, rmdir /s /q|Remove file, folder, or recursively remove folder|
|mkdir|mkdir|Make a folder|

[eMJay]

rasmasyean said:

Yeah. you're talking about basic peripherals and support for basic functions.
Try getting the lastest programmable multimedia keyboards / mice and webcams and even many printers to work as intended.
Logitech is obscure? And Creative too?
And what if I wanted to buy a touch screen like PC or a portable Tablet? Is there a build that supports equivalent features? No, I have to go through some weird hacks and hope it works right? Or buy those little tiny POS Nokia-type things?


If I wanted to use a computer like I was back in the 90's I would have kept my awesome Windows 95 machine. But I guess I threw that away. Oh well. Garbage. And even then the Windows 95 machine had more support than what Linux has now.

And you consider yourself a "power user" I bet. Power in doing what? File management? Configuration management? Freeware research? Whatever, dude.

You're making me laugh. I just said that Linux is a resource. There's no such thing as a tool that does every job for everyone. The difference between us lies in the fact that you're comfortable with your one tool, while I prefer to diversify and reap the benefits. There are lots of people with a similar disposition out there to mine. It's an asset, not a curse. Just accept it and move on.

You seem to be stereotyping Linux users... and you have this habit of trying to put words into people's mouths and then ranting about it as if they said it themselves. Just because I use Linux doesn't mean that I'm one of those who speaks CLI commands in their sleep and routinely scribbles C on toilet paper as they're taking a dump. I use Linux the same way many Windows users use Windows. I don't know how you define a 'power user'. I define a 'power user' as someone who knows how to maximize the use of their computer by gaining knowledge about it and/or it's software...in other words, a person who makes the best use of their computing tools by opening their mind and learning a few things beyond the scope of the average user.

As for your hardware rant - If you want to buy the very latest niche gear, go buy it. Just don't complain about Linux not having drivers for it...they didn't manufacture the product. Why would you even expect to get immediate driver support for the latest hardware from Linux if the manufacturer isn't even providing it for Linux? Windows gets it's widespread hardware support by virtue of its default OEM installation status on PCs. The market situation doesn't give OEMs a choice in the matter. Even now with all its billions, MS doesn't have the resources that the open source community has to produce native driver support for all the hardware out there. Imagine what using Windows would be like if it only had a 10% market share - it's hardware support wouldn't come close to what it is today, and you would probably be ranting against it on a machine running something else. Most people don't buy or need fancy peripherals that you do. I don't know what you mean by 'using a computer like I was back in the 90's'. Just about everyone is still using a mouse and keyboard, just as we did back in '95. Heck, Windows still has the start button even now. Keep your touch screen monitor and I'll keep my 42inch LCD display.

Back then, i don't recall being able to do things like transfer files from my Cruzer Micro pen drive and music from a drive in a PC in another room directly to my mobile after simply plugging in a bluetooth dongle into my Ubuntu desktop machine while simultaneously watching Event Horizon on DVD in full 5.1 surround sound coming out of my CREATIVE sound card as I was just doing up to a little while ago. Trust me, nobody was doing that back in the 90's.

[rgreen4]

bbvammy said:

Linux is too hard, I am going to use Windows ( Point and Click )

Manual Transmission is too hard, I am going to buy automatic which is $1000 more and each repair cost $2000 ( I do know how to drive transmission )

I don't know what you are doing to your poor vehicle to spend $2,000 on Automatic Transmission repairs, but it's been 30 since I had to have a juice tranny repaired, and that was on a car I bought new. Regular maintenance on your car or computer can avoid a lot of costs.

[WinTard]

That's a great post Evildave.

Under Windows, I must confess that I also use cygwin and bash... Normalizing a little bit with the other platforms.

Another outstanding command processor shell is TakeCommand (TC) from http://www.jpsoft.com/ well worth a look. I've been using this since the days of CP/M with its roots in Rick Conn's ZCPR (Zilog Command Processor Replacement). Yes, prior to DOS. And in DOS, it became 4DOS, now public domain in source! An so is CP/M also in source... Oh well, sorry for the off topic...

And for those interested in poweful scripting and command line interactions in Windows, please see: http://www.jpsoft.co...s.htm#tutorials

For the curious types only, of course! ;)

~~~~~~~~~~
One day, you will have an urge to go explore a place or idea that is usually uncomfortable for you. Your curiosity will become stronger than your fear of the unknown, and this is a very positive development. It will encourage you to keep discovering, and keep exploring.
~ Mark Lerner

Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit.
~ E. E. Cummings (1894 - 1962)

Seize the moment of excited curiosity on any subject to solve your doubts; for if you let it pass, the desire may never return, and you may remain in ignorance.
~ William Wirt

The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
~ Dorothy Parker

Life must be lived and curiosity kept alive. One must never, for whatever reason, turn his back on life.
~ Eleanor Roosevelt, 1884-1962, American Humanitarian and Former First Lady of the United States

Curiosity is one of the permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous mind.
~ Samuel Johnson, 1709-1784, English Author and Critic

[smax013]

Evildave said:

Yes, but it's such a SIMPLE language, and all of the other languages build on the POSIX standard (i.e. dashes for parameters, forward slashes in paths, backslashes for escaping characters - as opposed to Windoze/DOS with forward slashes for parameters, backslashes in paths, caret '^' for escaping characters). Both use the same redirection ( | to pipe output to another process, > to send output to a file, >> to append output to a file, and < to take input from a file).


So, once you understand that, you can start using the CLI and writing simple batches/scripts.


It's not like memorizing the correct case for der/die/das in German for all nouns, or rules for spelling with ie/ei in English.


In any human language, there are tens of thousands of words and rules for using those words, and concepts behind those words. In computer language, there are dozens of core things to master, and around a hundred or more accessories which you can become familiar with, and look up when you need to. It's not embarassing to need to stop with a computer and RTFM, like it is with talking to human.


Very simple, predictable, straight-forward syntax.


Here's a small rosetta stone for 'learning' how to use the command line.


|(Everything except Windoze)|Windoze CMD/DOS|Meaning|
|ls -l|dir|List files/folders|
|find|dir /s /b|Recursively list files/folders|
|cd|cd|Change directory|
|pushd/popd|pushd/popd|Save, change directory/restore|
|var=value|set var=value|Set a variable to some value|
|$var|%var%|Evaluate a variable|
|$1, $2, $..., $|%1, %2, %|Get individual script arguments, or repeat all arguments|
|rm, rmdir, rm -rf|del, rmdir, rmdir /s /q|Remove file, folder, or recursively remove folder|
|mkdir|mkdir|Make a folder|

There you go again assuming things about me...

I understand DOS/COMMAND commands rather well. Like you, I find it rather easy to use and understand.

I have also used Unix CLI. And I will on occasion use the Terminal in the Mac OS.

And when I get around to trying out Linux, I will likely use the CLI there.

But, that is not my point. My point was that you and I are not likely "typical users". What you and I might consider "easy" to understand will generally look like alien to a typical user. For example, if you tried to get my mother to use ANY command line stuff, she would freak out. Getting her to learn simple basic stuff in a GUI is a MAJOR feat. Now, I will admit that she is at the other end of the extreme. But, the point is that your average computer user generally will not find CLI easy to use...and most won't want to use it.

As to your comment about memorizing stuff about languages, I would beg to differ. Learning all the switchs for various commands in a CLI is a lot like learning various tenses of verbs or rules for spelling with ie/ei in English. Just learning to type dir or sudo, etc is rather easy...figuring out and understanding how all those switches work with those commands is much more complicated. And while for some, it might all be easy, for others, you might be better off asking them to hike to the top of Mt. Everest as they likely will consider that easier.

So, my point was that you seem to assume that everyone is just like you and will find CLI very easy and the best way to go. Sorry, but that is just not the case. The vast majority want to have nothing to do with CLIs and for many of them, even if they did, it would be MUCH harder for them to figure out that it was for you.

[rgreen4]

smax013 said:

As to your comment about memorizing stuff about languages, I would beg to differ. Learning all the switchs for various commands in a CLI is a lot like learning various tenses of verbs or rules for spelling with ie/ei in English. Just learning to type dir or sudo, etc is rather easy...figuring out and understanding how all those switches work with those commands is much more complicated. And while for some, it might all be easy, for others, you might be better off asking them to hike to the top of Mt. Everest as they likely will consider that easier.

So, my point was that you seem to assume that everyone is just like you and will find CLI very easy and the best way to go. Sorry, but that is just not the case. The vast majority want to have nothing to do with CLIs and for many of them, even if they did, it would be MUCH harder for them to figure out that it was for you.

Which is why PC-DOS came with manuals in which the sytax and switches were explained and documented. Once Windows became very popular, these manuals were no longer necessary.

[smax013]

rgreen4 said:

Which is why PC-DOS came with manuals in which the sytax and switches were explained and documented. Once Windows became very popular, these manuals were no longer necessary.

To my knowledge, Windows used to come with manuals. I believe the reason that Microsoft no longer provides manuals has more to do with cost (and that advent of the web and online manuals and online/on screen help)...it cost them a boatload of money to print, ship, and supply manuals. And this is true of ANY software. I have boxes of old manuals for various applications and OSs. Now, you are lucky if you get much more than a disc sleeve with your install disc.

[Evildave]

It's hard not to draw conclusions that you have a hard time with a CLI, the way you endlessly whine about it.

"Typical Users" save all their files to the desktop and ask for a hard drive upgrade when there is no room left to add more icons to the desktop.

You know how often I've tried to convey the concept to files and FOLDERS to people? Used diagrams. Shown them patiently step-by-step, how to do it, only to have to explain it to them again... and then again.

Click, drag and drop a file to copy it. They don't know how to do it a month later.

A culture that tries to make it so nobody has to learn anything produces people who never learn anything.

They don't know the difference between what's on a server, and what's on their own computer.

They don't understand that a web site being temporarily down isn't their own computer being 'broken'. Show them the difference, they'll be on the phone bugging you a week later with the same problem, and a good chance it's the same problem on the same web site.

If you complain that Linux is 'so hard' because you have to 'learn things', just keep using the OS that was made for YOU.

It's not an 'elitist' attitude. I just don't mind learning a thing or two to make life easy.

Oh, and you do not need to know every permutation of every command line flag of every program. There are a handful of commands and concepts that you need all the time, and the rest you can look up when you get around to needing them.

[smax013]

Evildave said:

It's hard not to draw conclusions that you have a hard time with a CLI, the way you endlessly whine about it.

I don't whine about it...I point out that it is not as easy to most people as you make it out. It is easy FOR YOU, which is great. If it were easy for most people, then Windows would have never come into being and we would still be using DOS or some "future" version of DOS (whether that would have ended up being Unix, Linux, or some other CLI).

I could survive fine with a CLI...but I don't need to. For most of my tasks that I do, I can do it much faster in a GUI than CLI. But, my tasks are not too repetative where a script or convient command line command would speed things up.

And that does not even get into that you seem to believe anyone who dares to disagree with your view of things as being a whiner and as being dumb or lazy.

Quote

"Typical Users" save all their files to the desktop and ask for a hard drive upgrade when there is no room left to add more icons to the desktop.


You know how often I've tried to convey the concept to files and FOLDERS to people? Used diagrams. Shown them patiently step-by-step, how to do it, only to have to explain it to them again... and then again.


Click, drag and drop a file to copy it. They don't know how to do it a month later.


A culture that tries to make it so nobody has to learn anything produces people who never learn anything.

That might be true, but someone who is not willing to be patient and only teaches what they consider important and in ways that they think students should learn will never really teach anything either.

In otherwords, whether or not someone learns something is a function of the person learning and the person teaching. You have to be willing to accept that different people learn in different ways and that some people have real difficulty with certain things.

And the reality is that there are a LOT of people out there that struggle with basic computer principles. It is not necessarily because they are dumb or lazy or unwilling/unable to learn...it could be because their strengths just don't include computer related stuff.

Quote

They don't know the difference between what's on a server, and what's on their own computer.


They don't understand that a web site being temporarily down isn't their own computer being 'broken'. Show them the difference, they'll be on the phone bugging you a week later with the same problem, and a good chance it's the same problem on the same web site.

And the point is that these are the people who have chosen not to adopt Linux and get chased away due to the Linux enthusiasts complaining about how much of pain it is to hold their hands. The point is that if you want to gain in market share, you will have to deal with such people.

Quote

If you complain that Linux is 'so hard' because you have to 'learn things', just keep using the OS that was made for YOU.

Jumping to conclusions again. I am not complaining about Linux. Linux does not bother me one bit. The only reason that I don't use it that I am perfectly fine with what I do use. Both Windows and the Mac OS suit me needs just fine.

I point out why people don't want to "come out and play"...if you "smack" them, then they won't want to play with you.

Instead of just saying "oh, Linux is easy" and pushing them off on their merry (or not so merry way), you have to be prepared to actually help them...even if it means holding their hands for long periods of time.

Quote

It's not an 'elitist' attitude. I just don't mind learning a thing or two to make life easy.

It is an elitist attitude because you are assuming that others don't want to learn, when it might other things that prevent them from finding things as easy as you.

Oh, and you do not need to know every permutation of every command line flag of every program. There are a handful of commands and concepts that you need all the time, and the rest you can look up when you get around to needing them.

Yes, but some people struggle to understand what those books or man commands might mean and thus, struggle to understand how to implement that command that they just looked up.

And then some people don't want to speed time looking something up when they already know how to do the same thing in a GUI without having to look anything up.

[rasmasyean]

I for one, don't think that your standpoint is an ‘elitist' attitude.
I rather think is sort of a ‘peon' attitude.
What you are missing from your concept is that most people care about the bottom line, money. Their time is worth money and a hard drive is worth crap. If they don't make the sale you can take your computers and shove it. There is a balance of course as you can't have most people storing all their vacation videos on their HD and expect to be babied, but you have to understand that those who generate the income, should be given some slack. They have no time to learn the ins and outs of computers other than the way to use it to make the sale. You can be an auto-mechanic and rave about how to properly use a wrench, but no one gives a crap. Just fix the car because your customer needs it to get to work, etc. As for learning "out-of-job", most people rather take their kids to the park or watch TV by themselves. The ambitious ones learn to make the sale better and smooze people.
Most of your posts indicate this peon mentality. You think that people should be like you and do what you do because you can't accept the fact that diversity is the way most things are done. And you think that your job is the most important there is in the world because of your narrow vision about the real environment. Just do your job and let other people do theirs. It would be great if the whole world are computer geniuses but that's not how it is. Most people are computer idiots which explains why you have a job anyway. I'm not saying that cost of equipment is completely irrelevant and cost of learning always too much, but you need to realize that there is a balance and that not everyone is like you. You need to see where that balance is. Perhaps it will come in time when you gain more wisdom or something, but you clearly are not there.

[TechieXP]

You guys having me thinking back a bit. I met a young man in Aussie through WinMX...and we had these same battles with Linux and Windows. He even turnned me on to using Apache...instead of IIS in Windows 2000 Server. I had never set up a server using a text file. After reading some of teh rules and with his help in unstanding the structure...I was able to set up a server that hosted 2 domains. But the sampels of what you need i already in the file. All you have to do is copy and paste and change the needed info. But even after doing it several times, I'd still forget how to do all the command manually. I found a GUI made for Apache and it made short work of it. Same for using MySQL. It can also be configured using commands...but unless you that stucff every single day, you're not going to remember them. And you have to keep a cheat sheet handy.

@evildave: With Windows its just point an click. Apple had a vision of getting us away form that text based stuff. And they certainly have improved it and so has MSFT. We don't like doing things that way. Its hard. And yes he is right...there are many things you can do in Linux that would never require using commands. So what happen whn it does.

Windows ones are more simpler in many cases. But you don't need to learn them. People learn better with pictures. Did you learn that growing up? A picture is worth a thousand words. There are millions of people who can barely read...but have learned to use a pc based on what they see and what few words they do know. What about old people who can barely see? I find it funny when people say they gave a linux box to an older person. I doubt they could use Linux beyond what they can see. They certainly aren't going ot remember that stuff. What about younger kids? Parents won't know how to implement much of that stuff. Nothing beats pionting and clicking.

Look at phones, look at gps...everything is about touch. thay all have something in common..you are pointing...even if it is with ur fingers and you are clicking by touch as well. We aren't going back to teh days of lighting fires using dry grass and rocks. We like striking matches...or flicking lighters. Linus is to much like Windows 9x...a shell being loaded on an archaic CLI. Windows has been there and that way doesn't work anymore. That si why Windows is dll hell and registry hell...because there are millions of ways do accomplish a task...but point and clicking has proved to be teh best one.

[TechieXP]

I think he was talking about the CLI. The reason GUI is so infamous is because it is the standard of today and CLI is like the day of teh dinosaur.

When we think of CLI, we think of the technical way of doing what a GUI does in your behalf. The CLI is okay for most o get simple info. Like in Windows is is easier now to ask someone to open a DOS window and type IPCONFIG to get the IP Address vs telling them how to find teh sme info using the GUI because it takes 2 or 3 steps...for something that could be done in 1 back in the old days.

What about older peopl using a PC. Sure they can easily be taught Linux because they aren't going to ever need anything fancy and once you show them how to do what they need, they will simply do it that way each time. But what happens when they decide they want to buy something on their own...you know how they can be. Then what? At leats with Windows or OSX, people can go nd get something they want off the shelf...some people couldn't even Google themsleves out of a paper bag...no less finding info about Linux. As it is claimed that since Linus isn't mainstream then it isn't as known as OSX or Windows. I beg to differ...the info about Linux is everywhere...it just no one cares for whatever reason.

Anyway many of those Linux commands are also found in Windows. However even as straighforward as it is, no one is going to be using that unless they have a technical need for it. Until Linux is everything point and click like OSX or Windows...it sin't going ot be commonplace. That doesn't make it bad...it simply just doesn't make it for everyone.

Based on what you said...learning Spanish would be easier than learing English because it has less rules on how to say things. But yet that isn't the case...an computer language as wih spoken language, the rules change based on how or what the word is being used for. And yes computer code has cheat sheets in case you forget...what happens in real life if you forget?

Also I too agree about the issues in every Windows release how MSFT chanages things when we get use to having things a certain way. But in many cases this is what people ask for. So they are not just changing because they feel like it. UAC wasn't bostched..it was what they asked for. They wanted something that warned them about everything the PC was doing. MSFT gave them that and they bitched. MSFT changed it against ad people found something wrong with it. MSFT can never win because when you give people what they want...they don't actually want it. Sounds like a typical human issue.

With your expertise...I am sure you all could use CLI to write a letter to your boss...but teh rest of us need a GUI as in Word...That is why GUI is so beneficial...it makes computing easy...thus the saying we don't want ttoo go back to the stone age of computers. Phones are great devices now....why? Because someone learned how to take CLI...and make it work with GUI so that the end user gets to enjoy the hard work that already went into the background. You ever heard teh saying..once a person reaches a cerytain point in life they dont want to go backwards.

Like a women who dates a guy with his own car...once that happens she ain't going to date you taking a bus. Once you date a man with his own place...you're not dating a man whom house he lives in isn't his...and once you are use to being rich and using a credit card as if ur pulling money off a tree...ur aren't going back to teh days of being broke.

Linux no matter ho great you find it to be...looks like a geeks toy to teh rest of us. I too see how linux could be better than Windows in many ways...So they should make a version that works just like Windows and make it popular and sell it or whatever...

Linux is free...the only explanation for why a free OS isn't doing better than a commercial one is because maybe the freebie isn't as good. If it was wouldn't we all be free. Think about industries both legal and illegal that would beneit greatly if it was free. Link imagine what teh world would be like if you didn't hve to pay for $ex. lol

[TechieXP]

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[Evildave]

With LINUX it's just point and click. For 's sake, how many times do we have to drive it into your thick heads???

It's sort of annoying, really, how people who obviously haven't used Linux at all (or in a VERY long time) are whining about how you MUST use that command line. Most major Linux distros boot straight to the GUI. No
contact with your scary CLI required.

You never have to touch the CLI. But if you need it, it is there, and works very, very well, thank you. There was never a '16 bit' Linux command shell. It was always the same 32 bit memory model as the rest of the OS, with a live network/internet connection, and full multi-tasking. DOS was always a half-baked toy, and Micro$uck never did much good with it, except finally abandon it.

The thing is, there are DOZENS of command line shells for Linux, just as their are dozens of GUIs, and web-front-ends, etc.

What good is a GUI on a web or dabase server whose only job is to accept socket connections? Just wast a a hundred megabytes (and more) on libraries and drivers and graphics and other goodies eating space and CPU time that could have managed more connections. All for a user that's never, ever there (most people remote-administer servers on a server farm somewhere). And then it's just a blade in a rack (possibly a virtual machine sharing time/space in a blade with no video adapter). You generally want a web or ssh (command-line) front-end for that, unless it's a server put up just for you, at home, on your own home network, and most ISPs will pull the plug on you if you try to run a server that gets a lot of hits off the web. By the time you build a server class machine and its UPS, and pay for your personal internet connection, and of course pay your Micro$uck tax, you could have run a series of ever more powerful dedicated virtual linux servers over time for the rest of your natural days.

Of course, to DEAL WITH a Linux server, you need to be sort of familiar with all that CLI stuff, and configuration files. It ain't hard, once you get used to doing it. DAILY exposure to it (in the form of USING Linux) gets you used to that marvelously. Or pay thousands to Micro$oft for a server license, and/or pay LOTS extra every month to run a Micro$oft dedicated server that wastes half of its resources just to boot, but just in case, you can log in with virtual KVM software and see a sluggish GUI. Oh, and install lots of 'security' bandaids because any Windoze server is going to get taken over by spammers and botnets in no time.

I'd personally rather use an SSH client to establish a command line session. VIM works as an editor. I can get the logs. I can configure the settings, I can start/stop/etc. things. Everything works just fine. Above all, I only need to spend minutes writing a CLI interface, versus the mess you go through making a 'friendly' GUI one... for who? Who needs it? Not me. Push comes to shove, I can modify the source code and rebuild the server software ON the server machine and have it up and running again.