[rasmasyean]

You might have a "piece of paper counts for crap" attitude because you don't have one, but Bill Gates is not "the norm". You can drop out from HS and become a millionaire too but that's a special circumstance and is rare. What the certification shows employers is that you have gone trough "proper" established training regimes guided by professional educators. In a schooling program you do get more theory than practice, yes. And not much beats hands on experience true. But that's the whole point. When you combine a background of that theory, it gives you a deeper understanding of broad principles behind your future work, and in most circumstances that makes a difference for most normal people. A person with a theoretical understanding of what he is doing can make sense of his experience quicker and on a deeper level. If jobs are really straight forward and only require memorizing ABC's then robots can do it.
Foregoing standardized education and training and starting your own little revolution is a different story. If you want to play your own game by you own ideas, you enter a different realm and make your own rules. If not, then don't talk jack about people who have invested in training to play by the rules made by people who have been there and done it.

[TechieXP]

I wasn't saying having the certification was bad. And I certainly wasn't bashing those who have it. There are advantages in bith.
But here is an example of how hands on is better than theory. I went to the classes for the MCSE I missed passing teh test because when you take the test there are no shortcuts and that is where I went wrong. On the testing you can't take the shrotcuts that you actually end up doing in the real world. I didn't attend ALL the classes, I attended what I needed based on what I didn't know. I did what was needed, just not the way it was required. I could have easily retaken the test, but simply chose not too. I had already paid money and didn't want to pay again. But I am not blaming anyone for that. I expect one with the certification on paper to make more than me.

However the paper just means you applied your learning in class and you did what it too to get eth certfication. But it doesn't mean you know what you are doing and here is an example. I worked a job through Teksystem down in Tampa. The tech I was working with was and is a certfied MCSE. There was a problem with Exchange. He wrestled with Exchange for iver an hour and didn't solve the problem. The problem was Exchange kept kicking email back to the sender. He gave up...and was about to make a call too MSFT about it. I had worked with Exchange 2000...but had limited experience with Exchange 5.5. I check 3 things and they didn't provide the solution....we also didn't find the error code on MSFT's website...which also was weird. The problem? Unlike today's Exchange...the previous versions create a virtual drive letter that is invisible. The problem was the physical hard drive was full. Exchange could no longer write to increase the mail file so it kicked it back. However the error message was very misleading and actually gave inacurate details. I simply check all possible scenarios...I check drive space last bec in 15 mintues I exhaust my ideas that weer software related in addition to things he already tried.

How is it I as a non-certified user found the problem within 30 mins and he is experience wthrough class and didn't find it after more than an hour? Maybe I go lucky.

I agree with what you said...but experience hands on is still better than what is on paper. The classroom can only imitate some common problems...but it doesn't prepare you for surprises. However this problem was basic and should ahve easily been found by him...that's how I see it. I am not discounting anyone who has certs. And I wasn't belittling those that have them. They earned them...just saying...almost anyone who has been in class you will assume they know what they are doing. I am saying it isn't always the case.

Issue 2...again with Exchange. I watch a MCSE tech improperly make an MX reacord for SMTP mail in Exchange. I knew the proper way and a shortcut way. He was doing a shortcut he somehow formulated himself. What he did was similar to a way I learned, but it didn't come out the same. He frikkin scolded me in front of 2 other techs telling me I know what I am doing I am the certified tech here...you're not. So I stepped back...and watched it basically blow up in his face. I was aked to fix...he simply missed 2 things....I tried to catch him at mistake 1...mistake 1 cause mistake 2...I fixed mistake 1 and problem was solved.

Here is an even more simple problem. We had a server that went down. So we used a Ubuntu Live CD to move the data from one drive to another. We were off site and we forgot to bring a Windows 2003 Server disk. But we did have an R2 disk. The system wouldn't boot after moving the data...and he couldn't figure out why. He did check the box in Linux to make sure the partition was active and bootable. But it still didn't boot. I tried to tell him what was wrong and he didn't listen...I told him...the DOS fitboot command on the r2 disk is the same one on the original no R2 edition of 2003. He was like no it isn't. He went and recopied the data...So I got physical when it didn't work. I literally pushed hi out of the way...popped in the disk...booted teh cd and went into the command prompt...and I ran the fixboot command...restarted an bam...came up with no problem. Gain all account were BASIC issue taught in MCSE 101 as I like to say and he got it wrong. Yet he is certfied...how can you forget simply routines like these? But have no trouble perfroming much harder tasks?

I remembered from teaching myself...MSFT created a DOS based tool that will combine family's of an OS the same disk. I have used the tool to create a DVD that has all versions of Windows NT built on kernel 5.x. THis would include Windows XP all versions...Windows 2000 all versions and Windows Server 2003 all versions. The tool checks every file for version numbers. Mnay files are teh same and are placed in one i386 folder...the rest are place in other folders that have VS scrtips that tell the install where certain files can be found. You can also find these on torrents...but i built my own.

Anyway...in theory Evolution is taught as a fact, that has yet to be proven...so its as you said...just on paper. Creationist to go on faith that there is a God who has a brain a created everything as we know it. Whose right? I likely to believe the later simply bec accidents never create order and never have. It is obvious many things just can't happen by accident.

In theory it is assumed bec a person completed a class they know what they are doing..when history has proven it isn't always the case. I am not saying you're wrong bec you're not as I agree 100% with you.

There are lots of ppl right now who are millionaires who didn't complete school or someone did their work for the so they could pass...most are in Sports and Entertainment. Liten to how Kobe expresses himself...listen to how Jordan expresses himself...now compare that to Shaq and many others...when they speak. You can tell who went to school...and who was just at school. :-))

But your point is well taken. but I wasn't making the certification insignificant for whose who stayed up tireedless hours to pass the test properly to get them.

[htyoung]

Dude, if you really were that close to getting MSCE, you would be foolish to not go ahead and take the test again. That's like turning down free money. If you don't want it, take the test for me, and I'll take it. I agree though, those shortcuts are a killer. Like having to open control panel and open the services panel, versus just start type in services.msc . Or in a more wierd example, I applied through a temp agency years ago where they tested your computer aptitude with a computerized test. The one question I got wrong. It asked me to show how to copy a file to a new folder. I right clicked and dragged the file to the new folder to select copy here, and was immediately marked wrong. They wanted you to open two explorer windows next to each other open both folders and drag the file to the other folder. And this wasn't for any kind of a training or support related job, so it's not like I needed to know the simple way so I could tell clients how to do it the simple way. That was funny.

On the whole Kobe vs Shaq vs Jordan argument, good point. Education level doesn't equal speaking skill. Kobe is probably the more eloquent speaker of the three and he only has a HS education. Shaq did only a couple years of college and his voice is almost mushmouth. Jordan did a couple years of college and he's almost as good a speaker as Kobe.

But you could argue that Shane Battier, who went to Duke (a very good academic school) for 4 years, speaks better than even Kobe. But again, you can't count the education. Shane is half white and grew up in a different environment than the others, who either grew up in mostly black philly or the south.

[TechieXP]

Well I had some options. Keiser was offering a 3 year program in 18 months. But back then they were not offering doing the program at home and I had to work as I had a wife that couldn't work and I had 2 kids. At that time I was working at Citibank which was 10hrs 4 days per week. And I also had a small business at home. I just didn't have teh time to attend class.

They offered me an opportunity to take the A and the MCSE by just paying for it. A was a breeze, but I failed the MCSE even though I knew the stuff...I just didn't know how to do it MSFT's way. It cost me $1500 to just take the test. Since I had just taken it I had to allow time before going back to take it again. I think it was a least a year.

I made a sucess of my at home business doing System builds and web design. I sold my PC business first to a local guy after my wife got really sick. Later I sold the hosting business to Brighthouse Networks. They were contracting with Time Warner to provide Cable/Internet in Bradenton Florida. I lived on the border of Sarasota/Bradenton.

I did find the the tests online and I also purchased some study material from a local who has already taken the test. He also identofied what things had changed. I honestly never had the time to go back. I also stopped studying..but I learned a plenty. JUst learning on my own...I can do anything a certfied tech can do...my downside is I don't have the MCSE....but I do have the hands on...more than 25 years worth. So I still get paid good money, just not as much as I could have.

I do a lot of private webwork where I do a lot of background work on sites. I make pretty good extra money. I regret I didn't go back, but due to the fact of my wifes health at the time and not having any family in Flordia...I didn't have other options. Even now many schools offer getting the MCSE at home...but there is still classroom time you must complete. At this point being 40, school is just not an option for me now. I still don't have the time. I am however not with the original ball and chain either. But that was all way back in 96...20 years have pasted...can't cry over spilled milk. I made decisions I had to make...not ones I wanted to make.

[htyoung]

Well, with that much experience, yeah, MCSE isn't as important. Good to hear the A+ was easier. I'm 30 and I wasted most of my 20s doing unskilled labor before deciding to go back to school and get a degree and switch careers. I was in college in the late 90s so basically as a work study I did some of everything since back then, most of the actual permanent IT people didn't have IT degrees. They were just the guys that happened to know computers when the college started pushing to network. Basically the college is only like 55 years old, so literally, most of the original people were there, and as a branch of the University of Virginia, the bigs started talking and we had to go from the current outfit to a most beauracratically correct one. I was there for that. Wasn't uncommon for me as a student to come back from class and be asked to do ntconfig.pol lockdowns for new prototype systems.

I'm lucky enough now tho to actually get to learn Cisco. It came up as one of my networking classes and we actually got the whole $300 cisco CCNA training and virtual lab package. So whenever school ends I'll have to learn some more about that, then hopefully I can get the at home, at your pace, version of the MCSE training for around 3k. And I already have my A materials from earlier classes. I'm going for the triple threat (A, MCSE, CCNA), because I only have about 5 years of experience, and only 1 yr in the last 8. The good thing about that one year, is it was remote/hands off support, which means I can do hands on support, or I can talk someone who doesn't know how to program their VCR through removing a virus.

I say, if you really want that MCSE though, look into video professor online. I know in my area, it's done through the biggest local college and they give you the classes as videos and online tests on an Ipod touch. You go through on your own Pace and then you're supposed to be able to pass the exam. Around here, with the recession and unemployment, the local unemployment/social services type places are big on giving away vouchers for the exams, and one program actually covers that video professor program for free. There are a lot of things given away for free that you wouldn't think about. I was surprised to go to the unemployment office to sign up for the video professor thing to see two other IT guys there. One was a Network admin. I didn't get approved though because I applied last fall, when the economy was going bad and the government was cutting off funding waiting to see who the next president would be. I think the idea was that they were scared McCain would cut their grants to help balance the budget, and they were hoping Obama would pull money out of thin air to try to solve the problem by throwing money at it.

[waldojim]

for those still on topic, two stories worth a quick look through

news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10198869-16.html



[http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10301028-16.html]


I love this statement:


"leaves Microsoft squeezed by high-quality, high-volume strategies being
used by Apple and by open-source vendors like Red Hat. It's not a
battle he's going to win through soundbites. He's been trying that for
years, and the market is waiting for Microsoft to learn to compete
again, to build real value and to sell it."

[DepletedUranium]

"For example, to get DVD playback on Ubuntu, you have to type a certain command after downloading software. Once done, however, DVDs will play back automatically forever and ever." That is not true I have used Ubuntu for 2-3 years and I have not had to do that at all and I mean at all and yes I have played dvds on Ubuntu. Did you actually R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H not sit in a coffee shop and say "HEY! I should wright a article about why people quit linux and intern piss that entire culture off!" Did you? Really? Be honest we are people too.