[Evildave]

Nearly impossible. At the very least there'll be sh. That's why
everyone assumes you have it. X is an extension, not the scripting.

Yes, I did indeed use DOS and made/used .bat files, makefile,
and various other things. BASH makes all of that look pretty
primitive.

I used the Atari ST before that, and I used Mark
Williams C, which came with a unix-like shell. I used to be really
proficient with micro emacs. Now I can barely remember how it ran. I
use vim, instead. I used the 8-bit Atari before that, and an Ohio
Scientific Challenger 1P before that.

Anyway, being a
programmer type, I like writing programs. If I can spend ten minutes
writing a script to save an hour of repetitive work, I'll do it.
Actually, I'll spend over an hour writing a script to do that hour's
work. It's more FUN that way, and I know I'll never have to do that
hour of work.

Programming is the best puzzle game ever. Every other puzzle game is
just repetitive tedium, and a tiny subset of programming. Give me a puzzle, and I'll write a program to solve it, and that puzzle won't be interesting anymore. Programming grows and grows, and you always
want more.

DOS? I can make a CMD batch of any BASH script (and frequently have to), but not without 'cheating' and grabbing GNU tools to make it work. DOS versus BASH is like the difference between a moped and car. They'll both get you there. You'll just be a lot less dirty and mud spattered in the car, and that DOS powered moped inexplicably gets only eight miles per gallon.

After all, who could live without grep, sed and wget?

[rasmasyean]

You think that text is so great? How about memorizing all those commands? If you have an infallible memory, that is great for you. Most people (including programmers) have more limits...as well as other things to think about rather than drill manuals into their heads.
So instead, people at Microsoft thought of this. No doubt that they are programmers too! So you get a window that displays selectable options that are listed in plain sight sometimes using the whole screen (rather than one line at the bottom). Instead of typing # / > ! and the likes, you just have to click something. Not sure what it does? Mouse over it and it gives you a description without having to type "man -<command>" or whatever. I prolly got that command wrong because I don't memorize crap like that because I don't have to. Not to mention that unless you are like a Savant, you will forget most of the commands if you don't use it for like a month.
Don't forget that although Ubuntu or whaterver your fave is has advanced a few things and the interface, Linux is still mostly the same as it was 2 decades ago. Windows has added tons and tons of features and evolved via billions of $$$ of investment. You think you can remember the "commands" for that? You are my hero then!

[mediaservant]

I really don't think that this forum is an appropriate place to teach someone how to network linux and windows and so on, but I've had a very good experience so far with ubuntu 8.10 and my windows boxes at work. I've even set up the linux box to be a smb server for the windows boxes to back up onto. Using the "connect to server" tool is the best way to access windows file shares FROM linux. Going the other way, connecting to the linux share when smb is installed is as simple as accessing any other windows share - start run 192.168.1.100 or whatever it happens to be for you. Bottom line, linux is a great networking tool imo. And I am only scratching the surface.


-----
Add one more: I have
installed the last 3 ubuntu releases, and would love to use it. But
each time, I try and get it to network nicely with windows shares, but
with no luck.

[Evildave]

Actually, XEROX PARC worked out and invented all that GUI stuff while Micro$oft was still trying to sell (all text) BASIC interpreters.
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD "

20 GOTO 10
Then when XEROX management came and declared "We make photocopiers", and shut the whole thing down, people from Apple were given a tour of everything they had done, and then they stole it and made the Mac, then Micro$oft copied Apple. Then Apple sued Micro$oft. Then Micro$oft admitted in court. "We didn't steal the GUI from Apple, we stole it from Xerox!" Still thieves but not of the particular crime they were being sued over.A GUI without a command line is like a kitchen full of food processors and blenders and microwaves and all kinds of automated whatnot, but without a single good, sharp knife. (That's a mangled quote from someone else, but I can't remember who, and also can't find it.)
And the Mac comes with a command shell, too. And like Linux, you don't have to ever use it, if you don't want to. But it is a 'real' shell with 'real' command line tools behind it, rather than the Windoze 'CMD' crap.

And to complain about learning CLI comands, one may as well complain about all the sounds and symbols needed to express and comprehend thoughts in natural human language.

Want to encode all the '.wav' files in your home/music folder into mp3 files?

$ find ~/music -name *.wav -exec lame {} ;

What? Don't have 'lame'? Ubuntu will tell you how to get it.

$ sudo apt get install lame

What would be easier? Solving a simple puzzle, or sitting in a 'friendly' GUI tool and repetitively opening wav files and exporting mp3 files all night?

That's what it basically amounts to. Click, scroll and click, save-as, and type a file name and repeat 1011 times, or entertaining yourself figuring out how to let the computer do that gruntwork and find some other way to entertain yourself while it's busy.

Oops! You wanted to set a higher bit rate?

Well, start all over tomorrow night with the GUI, or modify your command line invocation and go watch another TV show, or read some web pages, or whatever.

$ find ~/music -name *.wav -exec lame -b 256 {} ;

Even if YOUR GUI tool has a way to automatically do lists of things (i.e. an MP3 player with a masstagger), you'll have to figure out how, and that would be at least as much work as making a script to do it. More, because you have to relearn it for every different app that supports that kind of so-called 'advanced' feature.

For instance, if you have ImageMagick, the same technique mass-converts image formats.

$ find screenshots/ -type d ( ! -regex "..svn.*" )
| sed "s@(screenshots/)(.*)@"12" "../deploy/images/2.swf"@"
| xargs --max-args=2 ./makeslides.sh

This one's a little more complicaed. In this particular case, I wanted to make atomic slide shows using the Flex SDK. So I wrote a script to call a script to make source code and invoke a compiler to make the screen shots.

There were THOUSANDS of images in about a hundred groups. And they were all prone to change, and additional things could be added in the future.

Most people would just sit and use, say Flash, and drag all the images to a timeline, and export a swf. Over and over again.

Me, I write a couple hundred lines of script, make sure it does what I want, and take a nap.

Believe me, the scripting puzzle is WAY more fun than the endless (and stupid) drudgery.

People definitely suffer for their ignorance.

Now then, to address all the hard things to memorize:

man find

man xargs

man convert

man sed

Admittedly regular expressions are a whole world of discovery - you'll need to read some web sites.

All you really have to remember is 'man' (and/or a --help parameter for many tools, too), and know that if you search the web for BASH and (whatever common scripting task), you will get many excellent examples (and some junk). Basically, once you've used these things on a daily basis for a little while, you remember everything, or at least where to look it up.

At least there's an and-game for command line learning. Fun scripting puzzles.

Use ONLY a GUI, and you condemn yourself to endless, repetitive and above all unrewarding toil.

[rvbvolney]

Thanks mediaservant. I found a snippet of info today searching the web that may be the key: assign static IP addresses to each of the boxes on my network instead of letting the DHCP server dole them out. I'll try that.

Anyway, this illustrates the point several others have made: that searching to find a solution to a linux "roadblock" can be a frustrating and time-consuming exercise. Its no wonder many give up in disgust. Networking with ubuntu should just "work". Like it does so automatically in (gasp!) Vista.

[rasmasyean]

Are you nutz? You have to look at what you wrote from a different perspective. If you show this post to most people, they would be like what the hell? And wouldn't read past your first paragraph. Just because you do this as a profession/hobby, it doesn't mean that everyone else should be like you just to use a computer.
Think of it this way. Try to read a biological science paper. I'm sure biologists (who may even be a lot smarter than you) will not have a clue what they heck you just wrote. But he can understand every word and concept on that bio paper with one pass. And what is HE doing? Trying to cure cancer while you're converting mp3s! ;)

[Evildave]

And let's not forget what a good job rsync does for backups!

After the first backup, it's pretty quick, since it only copies differences.

#!/bin/bash
echo
echo Backup script!
echo
aflags='--exclude=".*" --cvs-exclude --archive --progress -l'
archive='/media/Backup/Archives'
mflags=$aflags
mflags+=' --delete --delete-excluded'
mirror='/media/Backup/Mirror'
read -s -n1 -p "Continue with backup?" keypress
if test $keypress = "y" || test $keypress = "Y" ; then
echo 'Backup work tree'
pushd /home/dave
# Too big for one zip file. Poo.
# find -H work -type f | sed -n -e '//./!p' | sed s/(.*)/"1"/ | xargs zip -u $mirror/work.zip
rsync $mflags /work/work $mirror
echo
echo 'Backup Documents'
#find -H Documents -type f | sed -n -e '//./!p' | sed s/(.*)/"1"/ | xargs zip -u $mirror/docs.zip
rsync $mflags /work/My Documents $mirror
echo
echo 'Backup Home Tree'
#zip -y -r -u $mirror/dave.zip *
rsync $mflags /home/dave $mirror
echo
echo 'Archive Work Tree'
rsync $aflags /work/work $archive

popd
fi
echo

The nice thing about scripting is, you can just copy them to a file, modify it (and make sure it's executable), and you have thoroughly automated and customized solutions just for you.

You could do the same thing with CMD and ROBOCOPY in windoze.

Not hard at all. Can you make a list of things to do? Yes? You can script.

If this stuff is too hard for you, well, I guess maybe you must've missed something in second grade.

People talkin' trash about the command line and the scripting that it makes easy sound kinda dumb.

Maybe they're intimidated by a simple inanimate object.

[rasmasyean]

And you just fell into the trap of being an example of why people don't like Linux.

[rgreen4]

Amen. And it's the same reason they prefer to drive an automatic rather than a manual transmision car. Why should they go through all that then the software (or transmission) will do it for them?

[Evildave]

Because a new car with a manual transmission will be at least $1000 cheaper, and not need transmission service every year, and a used car with a manual transmission will not have an automatic transmission on the verge of failure because the previous owner never did service it.

Manual transmission cars usually get better gas mileage, too.

Finally, it's absolutely no bother to shift a manual transmission. Like riding a bicycle (why should someone pedal when they could have an internal combustion engine farting poison into the air?), or even using a command line, it's intimidating to learn up front, but once you know how, you don't have to even think about it.

So, thanks for providing another way to illustrate the point. Once you've gone CLI, a GUI won't dooey.

To be fair, I do use the desktop environment with the multiple 3D desktops and whatnot. I'm just more prone to type 'make' (or 'ant' or 'make rundebug' or whatever) on a shell than to fish around in menus for a 'build it' button.

And gdb works OK, too.

[rasmasyean]

It's intimidating to learn up front...and also takes more concentration just to get from point A to point B and also takes some of your attention away from the road.
People aren't race-car drivers. Some are just uncoordinated folks who have to drive their kids to soccer practice. Not to mention that if you're a righty like most people, you now have to train your left hand to handle steering by itself.
Obviously, the market speaks for itself. Spotting Linux in the wild is a near impossibility unless you're hanging around a top-notch engineering university building. Spotting Windows is practically a default unless it happens to be a Mac on occasion. Both rose to dominance during different periods because of what??? The GUI. While Linux is still struggling to gain even a place in the English language.

[Evildave]

As I have mentioned at least three times in this topic, you no more have to use the CLI in Linux than you do on a Mac or Windoze PC.

Actually, Linux has the best GUI of any of them. Or should I say, collection of MANY GUIs. Any kind of GUI you like, you can have it. Or none.

The software for Linux that use GUIs is excellent, too, and much more likely to have a command line interface (i.e. you can launch into openoffice and tell it what to load from the command line). The MAIN OpenOffice, VirtualBox, GIMP, etc. trunks are Linux. The builds with the fewest problems will generally be Linux.

So some of you have setup problems with it? Bring it up in the support forum for the distribution you had problems with. Any and all driver issues are addressed there. Google it. You'll usually find the answer without ever asking.
And driving with a manual transmission is not in any way distracting. You don't take your eyes off the road to look at the shifter or the clutch. Your arm knows where the gears are. Your foot knows where the clutch is. People are just intimidated by it, and people who have manual transmission cars don't want to have noobs strip 10,000 miles off their clutch in one go to teach them.

[eMJay]

You make it sound as if Linux is hard to use - it's not. There's nothing difficult about point and click. The CLI? That's copy and paste and isn't needed for anything unless you happen to have a hardware issue. I have no hardware issues so the CLI gets as much use as it does in Windows. People are using this 'Linux has an unfamiliar interface' argument as if it's supposed to mean something. The fact is that everytime we buy new cell phones or other electronic gadgets, we're faced with learning a new interface. I haven't seen a Linux GUI that's harder to use than some of the latest smartphones. Anyone who uses electronics has to learn new interfaces all the time.



It doesn't matter if desktop Linux doesn't gain a large amount of global market share. In fact, I see that as a good thing. Having too much market share invites malware and viruses to the platform because malware goes whereever the bulk of the users go. I like things just the way they are -> a virus and malware-free Linux platform.



The bottom line is that the people who use it simply have more options available to them, while everyone else has to settle for whatever MS and Apple dreams up, good or bad, right down to the price tag and the bloat. I mainly use Windows to run specific programs, and Linux for everyday use. Many may not like Linux, but for those who do like it and use it, it gives them advantages that most don't have.

[Evildave]

Like riding a bike. Nothing to it!

Not my fault we're the 'Mensa' 1% of the computer world.

Here's a little picture I spotted today that helps explain the tech support (Type B) angle.

!http://forums.pcworld.com/legacyimages/
1!

http://roflrazzi.com...r2d2-what-click

[rasmasyean]

If you Linux lovers are so "good" with computers and information technology. Why does the fact that viruses are out there scare you? LOL
Sounds more to me that you're just running out of valid argument points.
And what are you talking about? Apple may have some limitations based on their philosophy, but Windows doesn't dream anything up. It's overwhelming majority of 3rd party vendors dream up things for Windows as their primary market consideration. So it DOES count if you don't have market share. No one will support you.

[eMJay]

rasmasyean said:

If you Linux lovers are so "good" with computers and information technology. Why does the fact that viruses are out there scare you? LOL
Sounds more to me that you're just running out of valid argument points.

And what are you talking about? Apple may have some limitations based on their philosophy, but Windows doesn't dream anything up. It's overwhelming majority of 3rd party vendors dream up things for Windows as their primary market consideration. So it DOES count if you don't have market share. No one will support you.

I'm not 'scared' of viruses or malware; my Windows machines haven't gotten infected in years (FF put an end to the drive-by installations I was occasionally subjected to while using IE). Antivirus and spyware scans have been reduced to a ritual rather than a necessity. Let me make something clear - I'm not just using Linux to avoid malware. I simply prefer it for a host of reasons. The immunity from windows malware is just one of the perks.

My point? I'm simply pointing out that you're wasting your time trying to create FUD. You can spend all the time in the world posting here and there and it won't change the simple fact the some people will continue to find Linux useful while others won't. Linux isn't going to disappear due to some people with time on their hands spreading FUD about it, because, as the old saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Linux is a resource. You can choose to use it, or you can choose not to. I know how to use it to benefit me and so do most of my friends. You clearly don't. That's not my problem.

No one will support Linux? I wouldn't call companies like Intel, NVIDIA and Google 'no one'. You do know that these mega companies invest in various way in the Linux platform?

[rasmasyean]

We're not talking about server support of Linux blade systems. We're talking about home computing and desktop usage.
No one who runs a Linux server "quits linux". That would be dumb if it meets the requirements.
Go to the store to buy some peripherals and see how many people "support linux" for your everyday computer use.

[eMJay]

Peripherals? All my peripherals work in Linux without the need for drivers from the manufacturers. In fact, the proprietary drivers were installed automatically by Ubuntu so it wouldn't have even mattered if a set came with the product.

It's on the Windows side of things that I get the occasional problems. A few peripherals don't work properly even with the Windows drivers installed, particularly after I installed SP3 in XP - but they work just fine in Linux. For instance, I have a Linksys PCI card that gave me random BSODs after I installed it on one of my XP machines earlier this year. Linksys did not update the driver after SP3 was released. Yet, it ran flawlessly in Ubuntu 8.10. Once I stick to brand name products, I don't have any issues with drivers in Linux. It's when you start buying obscure products made in obscure places in Asia that you run into support issues. Sure, it would be nice if more manufacturers made an effort to develop their own Linux drivers. But that hasn't stopped Linux from supporting their devices anyway.

I don't know why you brought up Linux server usage. I never mentioned it. I'm talking strictly desktop here.

[rasmasyean]

Yeah. you're talking about basic peripherals and support for basic functions.
Try getting the lastest programmable multimedia keyboards / mice and webcams and even many printers to work as intended.
Logitech is obscure? And Creative too?
And what if I wanted to buy a touch screen like PC or a portable Tablet? Is there a build that supports equivalent features? No, I have to go through some weird hacks and hope it works right? Or buy those little tiny POS Nokia-type things?

If I wanted to use a computer like I was back in the 90's I would have kept my awesome Windows 95 machine. But I guess I threw that away. Oh well. Garbage. And even then the Windows 95 machine had more support than what Linux has now.
And you consider yourself a "power user" I bet. Power in doing what? File management? Configuration management? Freeware research? Whatever, dude.

[rasmasyean]

Don't let your head explode. Most of those universities have well-funded research projects in computer science, robotics, and such that necessitates them to use Linux for computational purposes. They don't use it because they need to "convert mp3s".
Judging from the fact that a high school geek can learn Linux on their own to an extent where they can nearly master it...
while expensive post-college professional certification programs exist for various "parts" of Windows to fit specific jobs...
it doesn't look like devoting all your time to Linux classifies you with Einstein. But if it makes you feel that way when you use Linux, I guess it explains a lot. Rofl!