[artzy65]

"I'm just a bit annoyed by the trollers who have nothing to contribute, except causing trouble."

Keep in mind that they want to get you annoyed...

[Evildave]

I'd have to say the topic has gone where it was destined to from the beginning.

Just how much productive discussion can you have with a title containing 'It's on'?

May as well have named it "Apple vs. Windoze: Flame On'

Even this discussion about civility is off-topic.

*
ON TOPIC!*
*

Microsoft starts up another dumb new commercial campaign, as usual. I mean, if someone offered me $1000 cash to buy a PC, of course I'd go buy a PC. It's just at the end of the commercial I'd say "Now I gotta install Linux...." Last I checked, Micro$oft wasn't buying free PCs for everyone. Actually, since she got to keep the change, I'd buy an EEE PC with Linux on it already, then use the extra cash to upgrade and buy accessories for the Mac that I would have purchased in the first place with my own money.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=EIS6G-HvnkU

My new favorite thing about that commercial is the girl doesn't even walk into the Mac store. There's a bald guy with a striped shirt and jacket, carrying something walking past as she walks towards the door, and he's STILL THERE as she walks away. That's a real serious shopper there. Walk towards the door, turn around, walk away.

Apple responds in kind with more of their cute commercials with the inept, high strung, loser PC character and laid back, casual Mac character.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

I guess Micro$oft has discovered that just dismissing the growing threat that Apple computers pose to their world dominance is not an effective strategy anymore.

They even tried to be like the Mac ads last year, but I guess that didn't work for them.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xsN5hh2G7l8

Their previously monopolistic market share is dwindling away before their eyes. If their anti-piracy efforts ever drive people off the 'Free' pirated Windoze platform, Linux will gain about 1/3 of Micro$oft's previously held market share at the same time. Maybe even nearly 100% in China and India. Not that American businesses do any business with China and India... oh wait, almost everything we do is outsourced there.
http://www.linuxjour...om/article/5784

More damnable, lying statistics....
http://marketshare.h...t.aspx?qprid=9#
http://www.w3schools...browsers_os.asp

[WinTard]

Touche both of you! This is an interesting place, and fun too! Thanks to members like you... :D

[Evildave]

More about the "Real People" offered money not to buy Macs...

http://laurendelong.com
http://laurendelong.nowcasting.com/
http://www.google.com/search?q=LaurenDeLongMicrosoftAd

Who'd have guessed it was just another actress reading her lines? OK, I did. Who would've believed for even an instant she was real? She does a good job. I bet she was paid a lot more than $1000 for the role. Maybe Apple should hire her for Part II, when she discovers she got what she paid for, but at least she's not out any of her own cash.

[smax013]

artzy65 said:

People get a little testy here alright. Re 'on topic'... when was the last time anyone here (including me) said anything at all re apple vs windows ads?

All kind of depends on how loosely or strictly you want to define "on topic". Having a general discussion of the merits of Mac vs Windows is still on topic in the sense that the point of the ads are to highlight supposed merits of the Mac over Windows or Windows over the Mac.

The real point is that getting into name calling, personal attack exchanges is NOT on topic and is also against the Community Standards.

Thus, going off topic is generally OK as long as it is not too far off topic (in which case, you should start a new thread in the appropriate forum for that topic).

[smax013]

rgreen4 said:

Actually we can. If you want to talk about something else, it's very simple to start your own discussion rather than hijack a news discussion. That's what the General Talk area is for. We keep inviting everyone on some of these discussions that have been diverted into other areas to open a discussion there. You can start a topic on any discussion and there is even one labeled "Talk about anything Discussion" so you don't even have to start a new one as on that one there is nothing that is "off" topic.

A couple of additions/corrections to what [~22087] offered just so that it is clear.

General Talk is NOT for technical questions or highly technical discussions. For those, use one of the other forums. This thread gives guidelines for the discussions in General Talk: thread

The other thing that is off limits is off-topic political discussions. This applies to ALL PCWorld forums. If it political in nature and is relevant to technology or to a PCWorld news story, then it is OK. All other political discussions are not OK.

Otherwise, what [~22087] said is true...General Talk is for any far reaching discussions you want to have.

Quote

It's really a matter of common courtesy. If a member sees a topic with a discussion labeled one way and log on to find something else, it's just not right. The problem is the same characters do this to topic after topic and wind up arguing about the same drivel.

As to "off topic", going off topic is generally OK. Straying from the central topic of the article can be fine unless it strays too far. I will agree that it is generally polite to not "hijack" someone's thread, especially in the more "technical question" threads, so any off topic discussion should return to topic as soon as possible.

What is not OK is going off topic in to "flame wars" filled with personal attacks, etc. It is OK to disagree and have polite discussion over those disagreements, but keep it civil without personal attacks, etc.

[BGG001]

smax013 said:

What is not OK is going off topic in to "flame wars" filled with personal attacks, etc. It is OK to disagree and have polite discussion over those disagreements, but keep it civil without personal attacks, etc.

I don't recall me handing out any personal attacks and if I did, I do apologize (not saying you're blaming me for this). I can tend to get worked up in a conversation some times, and it can result in a slip-up of somesort; I'm only human just like every one else here.

As for political debates...Charles Manson 2012...jk, I can completely understand that rule, but that would literally have to be drug out of thin air in a discussion for most PCWorld articles.

[rgreen4]

Maybe. But the topic in this discussion is the Apple vs Mac in the ad war. Introducing any version of Linux in the discussion is irrelevant and off topic. Discussing the manufacturing techniques is off topic and related. Simply reviewing the discussion from the original news article and then the various posting demonstrates just how far off topic it has gone.

[Evildave]

I wonder how many pages of posts we can spend posting off-topic posts about how off-topic the topic is?

[Grr8008]

I believe that both ads have their merits but are largely irrelevant. Ad1: Microsoft price point. They are right but they miss one big issue that the mac ads keep bringing up that is true. Sure you can get a powerful PC for less money but there is the problem of some inconsistent hardware and drivers. Windows problem. However Microsoft could counter this with an ad about how people are always saying that they are the monopoly but they give the User the choice of what hardware the User wants to use. Ad2:Apple on the other hand talks about the superiority of the Mac OS. This is not totally true. They are missing the point of the Microsoft Ads and are avoiding the jab. If they let others use their OS on hardware that is not theirs then the price point would go down. However more problems might occur. They could counter Microsoft by saying that they may cost more and be more exclusive with their OS but do to the exclusivity they have less problems.

[Evildave]

RGreen, I totally posted a completely on-topic post... and all you want to discuss is how 'off-topic' you think mentioning Linux in it was? How off-topic is that?

And Linux is not irrelevant. The market is bigger than just Mac versus Windoze, and it's changing rapidly.

Some silly Novell Mac/PC/Linux ads
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cldeHjFig_c
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7eTguZ5OzJ4
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=3-329Czokjk

South Park Mac/PC/Linux ads
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0-22EpQOm8c

Of course, running Linux on the Mac is redundant. All that POSIX based code just runs on a Mac with a recompile. Just like it would run on a different distro of Linux with a recompile.

[rgreen4]

In relation to the discussion of Microsoft and Mac it is irreleveant, and apparently the market share shows the users agree. When the topic is about Microsoft and Apple anything else is off topic, but then that should be no suprise to you as you do it all the time.

[Evildave]

... but personal recriminations aren't off-topic?

[miniappleman]

Mac is in fact enjoying a larger growth rate than MS and most of that is in fact due to their Switcher Campaign over the last few years. People (lots of PC users) purchase iPods and iPhones, enjoy the experience of that product and become interested in knowing more about Apple products. Usually leading to the purchase of a Mac computer. All that can be said, is that the campaign has been successful in increasing the numbers of Mac computers sold.



Costs of computers - especially those used in office or education settings - must absolutely include the "after-market cost" in the Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). I've helped in a school environment where over the years the switch has been from 80% PC's and 20% Mac to about 98% Mac with a handful of PC's for software specific work. The time spent administering the PC's in dollar amounts was staggering. It may have been cheap to put the PC on the desk originally, but the cost to maintain afterward was a killer. It's not a large school with a large tech budget, so this drained it quickly.



Gradually as the PC's were replaced with Mac's we got to a point where we were 80% Mac and 20% PC. The few PC's were costing us 4-times the admin cost of all the Macs. It was economics that lead to the near 100% Mac deployment. Our admin costs on the Macs currently is almost non-existent. The tech budget now is able to be used for non-computer tech equipment needed in the school. Something that was impossible to do in the "PC era".



In a local university, the Mac was chosen to replace their PC's as it gave them twice the number of computers for a single purchase. For their art and design needs and using Mac computers - the labs were full of Macs. When PC software was needed - the very same lab was used simply by restarting the Macs under Windows through the Boot Camp software. Previously they had needed to maintain multiple labs with multiple types of hardware. Still the one "gotcha" is a larger expense in maintaining the Windows images on the Macs versus the OS X images.



I've owned, used, and maintained Apple and Mac computers since 1979 - and PC's since 1982. I use the PC/Windows machine whenever I have no other choice for the software involved. I use the Macs because they simply work and the aggrevation level is probably 1/10th that of Windows.



With regard to the Apple "I'm a Mac" ads, et al - they mirror the experience I've had of both types of systems over all these years. I see them and can always say "sure, I remember that happening to me". If nothing else, they portray experiences with the equipment.



In the MS cheapest laptop ads - to purchase the Windows laptop because of less RAM in the Mac will cost you in the end. The cost of adding like amounts of RAM to the Mac will be far less expensive in the long run. Problem is for personal equipment, people never place a value on their own time.

[WinTard]

I beg to differ about University; In sciences, math, technical stuff corridors, it's all PC. In journalism, law, graphics, arts, and other non-technical stuff, it's all Apple... Weird eh?

[smax013]

WinTard said:

I beg to differ about University; In sciences, math, technical stuff corridors, it's all PC. In journalism, law, graphics, arts, and other non-technical stuff, it's all Apple... Weird eh?

I have found that it is more tied to what computer manufacturer the University can get a better deal from. When I was in college, Apple has fantasitic deals for Macs. As such, my engineering school (one of the top engineering schools in the US) was almost 100% Mac labs for general use (some of the more "specific task" labs were DOS [dating myself a bit there] or Unix [Linux did not exist back then]). Fast forward about 10 years and the opposite was true. Their computer labs were largely Dell's running Windows at that point. I have not been in one of their computer labs in about 10 years, so I don't know what the mix is at this point.

[BGG001]

miniappleman said:

In the MS cheapest laptop ads - to purchase the Windows laptop because of less RAM in the Mac will cost you in the end. The cost of adding like amounts of RAM to the Mac will be far less expensive in the long run. Problem is for personal equipment, people never place a value on their own time.

I'm not too sure about that, if you buy RAM from Apple (which, I'm assuming someone buying the computer from Apple will do) they charge an arm and a leg, one model I specifically remember 2GB (or maybe it was 4) RAM being a $1000 upgrade. You can't tell me that you'll spend that much on a PC after you buy it just to "maintain it" because I've had PCs since 1995 and none of them have truly been "maintained," the only two times I can think of was buying RAM and buying a graphic card, and this was 2004/2005ish (regarding viruses, there's free scanners, AVG and Avast to name two, so I don't count virus protection as a cost either).

[rgreen4]

One of the reasons you are forced to buy the ram upgrades from Apple is they they are sealing the bottoms of more and more of their devices. Unlike most PC laptops with the bottom hatches for HD and memory access, you now have to take those devices to the Apple store or send them in and pay their price to replace/upgrade the HD and memory. Talk about RIPOFF!
Before the Mac Fanboys jump on this, not all Apple laptops have sealed bottoms - yet.

[artzy65]

"I'm not too sure about that, if you buy RAM from Apple (which, I'm assuming someone buying the computer from Apple will do) they charge an arm and a leg, "

I can say as a longtime mac user that their ram prices were more like both arms, both legs... and a bend-over with out so much as the courtesy of a reach-around. Also external mac hard drives were highway robbery... it seems pc ram and hard drives were pennies as compared to macs, at least in the bad old days.

[smax013]

rgreen4 said:

One of the reasons you are forced to buy the ram upgrades from Apple is they they are sealing the bottoms of more and more of their devices. Unlike most PC laptops with the bottom hatches for HD and memory access, you now have to take those devices to the Apple store or send them in and pay their price to replace/upgrade the HD and memory. Talk about RIPOFF!

Before the Mac Fanboys jump on this, not all Apple laptops have sealed bottoms - yet.

Actually, all Macs have "user upgradeable" memory (i.e. you can do it without voiding the warranty) with the exception of the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini. This includes both the MacBook and MacBook Pro laptops...and has since they were first introduced. Both have access to the memory through the bottom of the computer. For an iMac, there is a little cover over the memory slots on the bottom of the screen/computer. The Mac Pro is no different than a Windows tower...take the case side off and you can get to the memory (you might have to move some stuff out of the way). The exceptions are the MacBook Air and the Mac Mini. The MacBook Air cannot be upgraded at all...the RAM is soldered to the motherboard...you get what you get and if you want more RAM, then don't buy a MacBook Air. For the Mini, you can upgrade it...if you don't mind voiding the warranty.

Hard drives are a slightly different manner. The old version of the MacBook Pro did not have a user upgradeable hard drive...the new one does. The MacBook has always had a user upgradeable hard drive...both the old and new versions. The Mac Pro is again like a Windows tower. The iMac is the one that I am not quite sure about. Older G5 iMacs seems to "user upgradeable"...Apple provides instructions on how to do it...but the newer Intel iMacs seem to not be considered "user upgradeable". The Mac Mini is not user upgradeable and I am darn sure neither is the MacBook Air.