[TechieXP]

Well I live in Chicago, where front wheel drive is better when it snows. I didn't know which Benz you had. When I think of Benz I think of the 5 and 7 series which is the ones I see more often. And I know they are costly...
And the 318i? It was in excellent shape...it just the guy I guess didn't fix a few things before trading it. Her in the city where potholes line streets like beehives...those fancy cars don't do as well. They also don't do well gainst the salt in winter...which is why many keep their nice cars garaged until good weather comes back.
AS far the other stuff...one mans garbage is another mans treasure. And my car rides pretty darn smooth....I don't have those fancy rims that you seed rug dealers use....it just simple plain aluminum alloy rims. They ride very smooth...I don't even feel ruff pavement. Maybe its my brand of tire that helps. Who knows. Its works for me.
Anyway...back on topic :-)

[asiafish]

TechieXP said:

Well I live in Chicago, where front wheel drive is better when it snows. I didn't know which Benz you had. When I think of Benz I think of the 5 and 7 series which is the ones I see more often. And I know they are costly...

More proof you know nothing about what you are talking about. Mercedes doesn't make the 5 and 7 series, those are BMWs.

Quote

And the 318i? It was in excellent shape...it just the guy I guess didn't fix a few things before trading it. Her in the city where potholes line streets like beehives...those fancy cars don't do as well. They also don't do well gainst the salt in winter...which is why many keep their nice cars garaged until good weather comes back.

That was in 70s and early 80s. I grew up in Montreal and anything other than a Saab or a Subaru would rust away in two years, while those took three. That has changed.

Quote

AS far the other stuff...one mans garbage is another mans treasure. And my car rides pretty darn smooth....I don't have those fancy rims that you seed rug dealers use....it just simple plain aluminum alloy rims. They ride very smooth...I don't even feel ruff pavement. Maybe its my brand of tire that helps. Who knows. Its works for me.

Its an absolute rule, the lower the profile, the stiffer the ride.

[rgreen4]

This thread has been moved. If you would like to respond, please reply to the original post or to this one to keep the heading correct.

[TechieXP]

I wasn't paying attention too what I was typing...I always get frantic when I respond to you. It was a mistake made out of rusing to answer you. Ot not a common mistake...but it doesn't mean I can't make it....relax. I accept I goofed while typing...sorry...my mistake. Good catch though...next time I will reread what I type.

[coastie65]

Ok, the question was which is the better car FWD or RWD. Given the choices, it would have to be FWD for snow. The best choice would be either all wheel drive or 4WD, but that wasn't given. I would say that the overall topic was ill thought out to begin with as all choices weren't included. coastie

[Flashorn]

Sorry to disagree, coastie!



But, the better drive for Winter , is in fact RWD. If you live in a City with

6 months of snow a year, (I think you are close,right?) , you would

appreciate the Control you have with a rear drive. Don't try to take a

snowy corner in winter with a front drive too fast or even a on a wet road,

you'll end up in ditch somewhere. Don't trust them.

Those damn things just keep on going straight. We tried

a front driver Once (a Toyota Celica) and changed it the following summer.

Have been driving rear drives since. Too costly to repair and to maintain.



FLASHORN.

[coastie65]

Hey Flash, :D We actually got a good snowstorm this year. The first since 2000. At that time, I had an '82 Buick Regal with RWD and my mother had an '88 Olds Cutlass Supreme with FWD. That Olds went through the snow a lot better than the Buick. It went where I knew the Buick would have gotten stuck. It's the people who don't know how to handle the FWD that get into trouble. I saw one in a Rotary, the front end was tracking nicely around that thing, but the back end had swung way out. That was due to poor driving. Personally, I prefer shift on the fly 4WD. Think my next will be a Jeep Grand Cherokee. We don't even get six months of winter, let alone snow down here. :D We DO have snow removal equipment when the need arises though, including a stockpile of salt and chemicals.

[Flashorn]

coastie !



You're going to need driving lessons LOL !! We don't have a car

except for the Shelby. A Ford Explorer is what we use year round

with tires to match the season. I rarely have to use the four by in

Winter. I am constantly seeing people swirving and stopping in

the middle of the intersctions. All those little boxes with grocery

cart wheels attatched to the frame makes me stay away as far as

possible from them in Winter. There not that much better in Summer

either. But , to some extent , I agree that , what's behind the steering

wheel is very scary sometimes.



FLASHORN.

[rgreen4]

When I moved to Lynchburg, Va in Dec, '80, I learned a lot of good lessons in driving on ice and snow, and the most effective mode on average was the front wheel drive. Now, you had to be cautious, but if you kept your head about you and let the front wheels pull you it worked out. Going up too stong a grade could work against you as the weight shift onto the rear of the vehicle lessens the traction on the front.

However, a 4WD or AWD offsets this by splitting the torque. Many think that a 4WD increases the torque, but that is a falsehood. What it does is split the torque between front and rear and hence actually increases the traction. I have a 3/4 ton pickup and down here many ask why. I have actually used the 4WD on the interstate during heavy rains. In a heavy rain and hence a good deal of water on the pavement, the front wheels have a tendency to hydro when pushed. Applying some torque in the rotation of those tires lessens this tendency and improves control and stability.

When I had to make my trip into the upper midwest this past January, I chose to drive my truck rather than the FWD mini-van for the extra control and traction I would have. In the snow, I needed it.

[coastie65]

Down here, you get a bit of rain and it is Demolition Derby, not that they drive much better on dry pavement.. As far as i know, the smallest thing we have around here that I've seen are those Mini Coopers. Not near enough car for me. I forgot you had that Shelby. My sister and Brother in Law each have a Grand Cherokee. The sister that is married has a Toyota Four Runner. My Brother in Law also has a Vet, and Jeep Rubicon. They have a 1983 Datsun 280Z with T Top on stands in the garage. They take it down and for a spin from time to time. That was the last year for the 280Z, then it was changed to the Nissan 300Z.

[TechieXP]

How you figure? Unless you are drivng a BMW where teh weight is 50/50 that would not be true. The weight of teh car is up front...RWD would have problems trying to push the car out the snow...that is wny pulling is better. Front wheel drive sucks in mud bacause as teh wheels spin they bury themselves in mud...that isn't true of snow unless it is really deepof course AWD or 4WD is certainly better...but if RWD was better then all cars would be that way...however the majority are FWD The only cars that are typically RWD are sprts cards..bec most are usually 2 seaters and the weight is again a bit evenly distributed...And they usually have bigger wheels on thw back helping give more grip.

Imagine if all semi's were RWD..it would probably take them even longer to get up to speed. The trailer probably puts to much weight on the rear wheels...so thus the front pull the truck up to speed. The rear wheels are better for braking as they cause more drag and slow teh vehicle a lil quicker...However if your rear wheels spin out of control it is harder to control a skid. At leats with front wheel drive the wheels will pull the car in another direction..providing you don't lock the brakes.

[coastie65]

Yup, plenty of hills in Lynchburg. Not the place I want to be in Winter. Richmond is bad enough when it snows. Henrico County has a good road Dept. though and they do a really good job. As I said, my next one may be a Jeep Grand Cherokke as I like those things. Maybe not with a big V8 Hemi like my sister has though.

[coastie65]

To my knowledge, Semi's are RWD. You have a "smaller" single axle tractor and a "larger" tandem axle tractor. The tandem axle tractor is what you find on the long distance OTR rigs. You have a transmission that has a low range and a high range. Once you shift through the low range you push a button on the stick and the shift through the high range. With the weight of the trailor on the fifth wheel over the axles, you have plenty to give you the traction you need ( this is not to say you can't get stuck, you can ). That having been said, I do believe there are Automatic transmissions in those things now. In the past, the best car in snow was the VW Beetle as the engine was in the rear over the drive wheels. As far as the trucks go, my Dad was in the trucking business for over thirty years ( Atlas Van Lines ). coastie

[smax013]

In general, FWD is better for slippery conditions because the power goes through the front wheels which is where the majority of the weight is. This allows better traction in general (unless you are talking pure ice, in which it really does not matter much...FWD, RWD, 4WD or AWD).

In terms of control, it is more a matter of preference and the experience of the driver. If the driver knows how to deal with RWD, then it can be pretty good...although it is harder to control due to lesser traction. The problem is that controling RWD on a slippery turn (i.e. if you start to lose control), it is a little counter-intuitive what you should do. If you know what to do and have enough experience to over come your natural reaction, then RWD can be OK.

FWD is better for control just because you can go more with your natural instincts (unless you have been trained to be used to RWD, then your natural instincts, which are really now "unnatural", will be reversed). Thus, this is why more people like and use FWD in snowy/slippery areas.

Obviously, 4WD and AWD are the best, but they present their own set of pitfalls. The biggest is that a LOT of people believe that they are invincible in their 4WD or AWD vehicle. They drive in them like nothing can happen. They don't slow down in slippery conditions, etc. But, what they neglect to understand is that if you hit a slippery section and try to stop, 4WD and AWD don't mean squat...because ALL cars/trucks are four wheel brake...but that does not matter if you wheels have no traction. 4WD and AWD strictly provide a little better traction in some situations which means you might have a little more control and generally can accelerate faster (which is usually NOT a good thing).

Here in Michigan, there is always the "retraining" period when the first snow hits. It takes usually a month or so for people to "remember" how to drive in slippery conditions. You ALWAYS see people driving way too fast in that first snow. You tend to see less of that come late December to early January.

[smax013]

rgreen4 said:

However, a 4WD or AWD offsets this by splitting the torque. Many think that a 4WD increases the torque, but that is a falsehood. What it does is split the torque between front and rear and hence actually increases the traction. I have a 3/4 ton pickup and down here many ask why. I have actually used the 4WD on the interstate during heavy rains. In a heavy rain and hence a good deal of water on the pavement, the front wheels have a tendency to hydro when pushed. Applying some torque in the rotation of those tires lessens this tendency and improves control and stability.

A true 4WD system will evenly divide the power/torque to all wheels equally. If you get a wheel that slips, then it still gets 1/4 of the power. Thus, if you have 3 wheels slipping, then the 4 wheel will only be getting 1/4 of the power. In addition, a true 4WD system will "lock" the two front wheels together having them spin at the same speed. This is why you should not drive a true 4WD system on dry (aka non-slippery) pavement...as you try to turn, physics wants you outer front wheel to spin slower than your inner front wheel (it is traveling a greater distance around the turn than your inner front wheel), but because the front axle is locked, it cannot. Thus, you get the "hopping" effect and you can damage the drive system.

Now, there are "full time" 4WD systems that will have slip differential systems that will allow slip between the outer and inner wheels. If you have a "part time" 4WD system, then you should NOT be driving in 4WD mode unless you KNOW it is slippery. Thus, if your truck was had "part time" system, then drive with it engaged in the rain could have been a less than optimal choice. Yes, it might have helped when the water was enough to cause some potential hydroplaning issues, but you could also have been stressing or damaging the drive system when you were NOT slipping and had full traction. And this is why a lot of vehicles these days have "auto-sensing/shifting" 4WD systems.

An AWD system can distribute power/torque to the wheel(s) that are not slipping. Thus, with the most advanced AWD systems, you can have three wheels that slip and ALL the power can go to the forth wheel. There are a lot of systems that are labelled as 4WD that are actually technically an AWD system.

[rgreen4]

You are partly correct. Most 4WD drive systems have what is called an "open" differential on both the front and rear axles. An open diff only applies power to one wheel, thus a "4WD" vehicle is in reality a 2WD in that the left front and right rear wheel get power. The open diff is what allows the two wheels to rotate at different rates when turning a corner. While it is common to get a "closed" or locking differential on the rear axle, it is not common on the front axle. Most locking differential are also called "limited slip" differential, the most known brand is that provided on GM vehicles is Posi-Traction ™. Most people do not want them on passenger vehicles because they make noise when they are working or turning a corner.

The reason you are advised not to drive a 4WD vehicle on dry pavement (and this only really applies to speeds above 25 MPH) is the center section which is in the transfer case had no differential if it is a part-time system. A full time system does have a differential in the transfer case. I had a 1989 Jeep Cherokee with a dual system. In the lever was all the way forward, you were in 2 High. If you pulled the lever back into the first postition it was in 4 High FT (full time), the next detent was 4 High PT, then neutral and finally, 4 Low. Four Low is an underdrive gear usually about 2.73 to one, sort of like Granny Low. Taking into account the first gear ratio, the differential ratio and then the 4Lo ratio, I have seen some vehicles with an accumulated 69:1 total gear reduction. It's amazing what you can pull with that.

If you want a real locking differential, you can get one from ARB (actually the initials of the founder Tony Brown) an Australian 4WD accessory manufacturer. These differentials replace the normal ones and are actuated by air pressure to lock the two wheels on an axle together. Needless to say that when the diffs are locked, you are physically unable to turn the vehicle. You can get one for the front axle, the rear axle, or both for most serious 4WD off road vehicles. Many times in articles they are just called "air lockers". The air pressure is provided by a small air compressor mounted on the vehicle, and a switch on the dash controls a solenoid to control the air flow to the lockers.

Up until the mid '90's, most 4WD systems had locking hubs and a lever on the floor to engage the transfer case. Then the non-locking (full time) hubs became common, but the axle stub many time had a vacuum solenoid to lock the front axles shafts. My '90 Dodge was like that as well as all subsequent 4WD trucks. Then the dash mounted switch for the transfer case became more common. All of mine have had the "short stick" however.

My current Dodge 2500 is my sixth 4WD vehicle and in addition to the part time 4WD transfer case has a limited slip differential in the rear. However, since the mid '80's, I have had several "vehicles" with real mechanical locking differentials, in the form of compact tractors. On them you step on the lever to lock the rear diff and it stays locked until you take the pressure off. When you forget and try to turn it, it reminds you in a hurry by not turning.

[rgreen4]

You are right. Almost all of the delivery trucks and all of the highway tractors for the tractor/trailer rigs (semis) are RWD. They are easy to spot because of the huge differential. The only brand of straight trucks (cab and chassis for addition of a delivery box) that is front wheel drive is in fact FWD ™. They actually have real good traction as long as they have weight in the trailer as 50% of the weight of the trailer is concentrated on the 5th wheel. Some actually have two differential tied together for the tandem axle arrangement. Most however only have power to the front axle on the tandem set. When weather gets too bad, they hole up at a truck stop.

[SnyperTodd]

I don't doubt that you're right about some trucks having only the front drive axle powered, but I've never seen nor driven one like that. Every truck I've driven has had a "power divider" to power the rear drive axle in addition to the front. My current International even has a double locker, which means I can pneumatically lock the drives not only front to rear, but also side to side. Then, power is delivered to all 8 drive tires no matter what. Still, I have been stuck in situations where all 8 tires just spin and the truck doesn't move... Pulling a 55-ton rock crusher through a wet field is not a good idea, even if the boss says it has to be done.

[mjd420nova]

Wow, a real difficult decision. I grew up in Minnesota and in a time when RWD was all there was. I learned to drive a stick too and the city even plowed and shaved a lake and encouraged drivers to go out on the ice to learn what you can and can't do on ice and how to handle your car under those conditions. My first encounter with a FWD car in the snow, I didn't even get out of the parking lot before I found the ditch. I've come a long ways since then and have found that I really love the AWD Subaru machines. We don't get much snow here in California and I don't venture into the mountains in the winter until the roads are clear and no chains are required. I hate chains. My main encounter with a real snow storm (actually a blizzard) was in late September '75 in Salt Lake. While traveling from Minnesota back to California, we encontered blowing snow in Wyoming on I-80. When we got to Salt LAke the guard rails were littered with wrecks. They didn't have the freeway complete yet and you exited the highway and made a left unto the Salt Lake highway. I tried to put chains on and really got frustrated by a steel plate in the gas station driveway. I took of acoss the flats without chains and made it safely. It was a rear wheel drive compact. As for the rusting factor, Cargill, who supplies the road salt has now engineered it so it doesn't create the problems as before. You're more likely to encounter rusting from living on the coast than from road salt.

[smax013]

mjd420nova said:

As for the rusting factor, Cargill, who supplies the road salt has now engineered it so it doesn't create the problems as before. You're more likely to encounter rusting from living on the coast than from road salt.

To my knowledge, it is not because road salt has been "re-engineered"...road salt is road salt...to my kwowledge, it all has a negative charges Cl which creates the problems.

The change is in the rust protection that is done to cars these days. It is much better than what used to be...what used to be was basically nothing...rust protection was pretty much non-existant a couple decades ago.