[1MacGeek]

wmurch3 said:

All of you saying Sprint hyped this phone up to be an iphone killer - Can you site any sources here? Having trouble finding it? Well that's cause there ain't > none. in fact, I believe it was quite the contrary.

And you would be quite wrong.

Google has quite an extensive archive going back to January, including press releases, where Palm makes no bones about saying they were going to dethrone the iPhone. And even if that isn't enough for you, Palm didn't lift a finger to stop anyone from saying this was the case. It's like the way they have stayed absolutely silent over the sales numbers. They may not have said anything since January about being an iPhone-killer, but they sure didn't break their backs trying to stop anyone else from saying it either.

Buzz is a bitch to control, and Palm did everything they could to get it and keep it going.

wmurch3 said:

I'd say it is entirely too soon for kneejerk articles like "Palm Pre Fizzles for Sprint" but that's not going to stop tech pundits from trying to stoke the fires
and rake in the hits. Let's all just let them play their games and get on with our lives. Exercise a little enlightenment.

I say the investors in Palm stock already have done this. The stock is already trending down, and I think we may see a big drop when the market opens tomorrow.

There are four big problem areas with the Pre, if the chatter on the internet is any indication :

1. Battery life - it isn't meeting people's expectations. Scouring through the archives of reportage, I can't find a single word Palm ever said about battery life, so they may have committed a fatal mistake by being silent on the issue. Yes, multitasking comes at a price and Palm may have erred in not setting people's expectation in a reasonable frame. Then again, had they done so people may have stayed away in droves in the first place.

2. Overheating - yes, burning through that many watts comes at a price, but again Palm didn't set any expectations ahead of time. Same thing applies here, though : had they done so, the Pre probably wouldn't have sold worth beans.

3. Software Stability - Palm has already cranked out a system update to deal with - SURPRISE ! - crashing issues. That should have been taken care of in the beta testing phase, but evidently it wasn't. Palm better get a handle on this ASAP, or they will kill whatever App store they may develop.

4. Physical Keyboard - It looks like Palm guessed wrong on this one. It looks like people prefer the landscape keyboard, not the portrait-style keyboard of the Pre. Now we know why Apple went with a touch-screen keyboard : people get whichever they want.

Four challenges in product to overcome, and one Palm cannot : price. If you think Palm can overcome four out of the five, then sell your house and buy Palm stock. If you do not think Palm is up to the challenge, then stay away. It's really just that simple. But you simply cannot say Palm was not comparing to, and trying to kill, the iPhone. The evidence simply doesn't back you up.

[1MacGeek]

>

dogrivergrad68 said:

BTW, if you think that a brand new entrant into a competitive market is going to pull in 1million units in a week, you're really
in Steve's Reality Distortion Field. Apple didn't even pull that off with their original iPhone

Yes, but Apple did with the iPhone 3G. That is the high-water mark everyone else must meet, or be perceived as a failure. And the evidence shows, quite clearly, Palm was gunning for the iPhone. They have failed miserably at that goal - there is no denying that reality, but it sure doesn't stop people from trying.

[rfceo]

@1MacGeek
"Yes, but Apple did with the iPhone 3G."
How is the 3G a "brand new entrant" the 3G is an upgrade to the iPhone. It has a following already established.
I think Sprint is waiting for stock to be replenished before they start marketing, there were numbers out back in the first quarter 2009 as to how much is planned to advertise the Pre. To date we have not seen the marketing campaign begin. I think they are doing a great job with very little marketing dollars being used so far. Saw a comment on a site this morning of a Sprint store with over 250 on their waiting list.
So it still has interest, without advertising, and you probably could ask, average Joe, people about the Pre and until the Ad campaign begins they will have no idea what you are talking about. If you recall the Sprint instinct ad campaign, which was large, they are planning a larger one for the Palm Pre.
Happy Fathers Day to all the Dads out there.

[Imasu49]

Very short sighted.
The pre is not the bet the farm product - WebOS is.
Also, after the iPhone, pretty much anyone who was willing to switch for a phone has already done so (it was that good). Everyone else is going to wait for the phone to come to them. That's where Palm has the advantage. Apple has to cater to the low cost crowd with the $99 iPhone because that's all that's left on AT&T to significantly increase their market share but the problem is those sort of people generally balk at paying any sort of data plan. With the Palm Pre or variants very likely to hit Verizon who desperately need a flagship phone as well as AT&T, that's when things will get interesting. By then the SDK will have had time to mature, the OS should have a bit more polish and the picture will definitely be much clearer.

[1MacGeek]

rfceo said:

How is the 3G a "brand new entrant" the 3G is an upgrade to the iPhone. It has a following already established.

sigh.

The iPhone 3G is established NOW but it wasn't the first weekend it was for sale. Hence, it was a new product at that time and a brand new entrant at that time. That is the product launch all others will be measured against, and using that as the measurement the Pre fell far short.

rfceo said:

I think Sprint is waiting for stock to be replenished before they start marketing,

And - again - you would be quite wrong. Palm doesn't have the balance sheet that allows a million Pres made at one time. Had you been paying attention to legitimate analysts following Palm, you would already know this. In the discussions I have seen, 100K is the very max.

rfceo said:

there were numbers out back in the first quarter 2009 as to how much is planned to advertise the Pre.
To date we have not seen the marketing campaign begin.

And you may never see it - Palm's balance sheet is so weak right now the choice is between making more Pres or advertising them.

rfceo said:

I think they are doing a great job with very little marketing dollars being used so far.
Saw a comment on a site this morning of a Sprint store with over 250 on their waiting list.

So what is your point? I can show you stores in my area where they are sitting untouched. If they were sold out worldwide and a one-half million person waiting list it would still fall short of the launch of the 3G. Now for the news that will break your little heart in a million pieces :

The rumbling on the street is the 3GS launch exceeded the 3G launch numbers. It is quite possible the iPhone 3GS is the most successful iPhone launch in Apple history.

And it looks like the iPhone 3GS may have outsold the Palm Pre - on the first weekend - in excess of 24 : 1. That would put the iPhone 3GS on a higher pace than the 19 : 1 which had been speculated before the launch. So, just to recap for the reality-challenged people in the audience :

Apple - above expectations

Pre - below expectations

rfceo said:

So it still has interest, without advertising, and you probably could ask, average Joe, people about the Pre
and until the Ad campaign begins they will have no idea what you are talking about.

Which proves Palm sucks at generating buzz and marketing. Try and find someone who hasn't heard of the iPhone. Within a week of release you couldn't find anyone who hadn't heard of an iPhone.

If you recall the Sprint instinct ad campaign, which was large, they are planning a larger one for the Palm Pre.

Wow. That's setting the bar pretty low. At least, for how badly the Instinct sold, that is. I would be hoping for better if I were to be at Palm.

[Blove23]

Its really funny how everyone loves the Iphone, but really doesn't understand what 3G really means. I could ask 100 people, but only 10 could give me an answer.
I relate the Iphone to the PS2. At one time everyone had a PS2, then the Xbox came out. There was a debate about which was better and people picked there sides, then the Xbox 360 came out and people jumped at that. Now Playstation is catching up too the Xbox360. There is always changing of the guard.
Majority of the people with a Iphone don't even have a Mac. It more of a status symbol than anything.
I have a Pre and the potential has not be released. I give Apple credit they have changed the game when it comes to the Ipod and computers, but a phone is a phone.

[jabberwolf]

This report is biased beyond belief.

The pre is way more capable, faster, more useful than the iphone.

I want to get one, but they are not making enough, fast enough for demand to keep up!!

They UNDERestimated demand for the pre... playing it safe.

[dogrivergrad68]

bq. "The iPhone 3G is established NOW but it wasn't the first weekend it was for sale. Hence, it was a new product at that time and a brand new entrant at that time."
bq.
hahahahaha! It was an upgrade of an existing product, not a new entrant. It had the same form factor, practially the same dimensions, same CPU, same amount of RAM, same flash storage amounts (minus the 4G model), same camera, same screen dimensions & resolution, same dock interface, same UI, could use the same OS version, etc. The original iPhone and the early adopters who bought it, introduced the public to the OS, familiarized them with the UI, and kickstarted a 3rd party accessory market. The 3G was a cheaper subsidized phone, available at launch in 23 countries, and could finally provide cell network data speeds that Europeans were used to. All of that helped Apple sell 6.89 million of them in Q4-08 compared to the original's 270,000 units in Q3-07.
Palm has nothing else like the Pre, so it can be considered a brand new entrant to the market. The iPhone 3G was not.

[rfceo]

1MacGeek wrote The iPhone 3G is established NOW but it wasn't the first weekend it was for sale. Hence, it was a new product at that time and a brand new entrant at that time.
There was an iPhone before the 3G. The 3G was an upgrade as the 3GS is an upgrade to the 3G.
1MacGeek wrote That is the product launch all others will be measured against, and using that as the measurement the Pre fell far short.
once again not a product with no prior model and I never compared the two launches But if you really want to go there, we look at the original never before heard of iPhone, it only sold 270,000 units in the 3rd quarter 2007 (less than 100,000 average per month) http://images.apple....pr/pdf/q307datasum.pdf
http://images.apple....pr/pdf/q307datasum.pdf][http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q307data_sum.pdf



1MacGeek wrote So what is your point? I can show you stores in my area where they are sitting untouched. If they were sold out worldwide and a one-half million person waiting list it would still fall short of the launch of the 3G. Now for the news that will break your little heart in a million pieces :The rumbling on the street is the 3GS launch exceeded the 3G launch numbers. It is quite possible the iPhone 3GS is the most successful iPhone launch in Apple history.
Where are these Sprint stores with mass quantities of Pres, there are some people who are waiting for them that would like to know?
It really does not bother me (or break my little heart to pieces (shows how immature you really are)) one way or the other about the iPhone selling 500000 3GS models, good for Apple. You were the only one comparing the launches between iPhone and Pre. You need to check your facts before you post, you say worldwide when referring to the Pre. Pre is currently US only. We will have to wait till the 25th when Palm is to release their numbers.
As I stated before "The iPhone and the Pre are both good products and it is a matter of personal preference for people.
AS I STATED I WILL NEVER HAVE AN AT&T PRODUCT.

[1MacGeek]

Blove23 said:

Its really funny how everyone loves the Iphone, but really doesn't understand what 3G really means.

And yet for it's initial roll-out, Apple outsold the Pre nearly 6 : 1. And if the initial reports from this weekend about the 3GS are correct (and I bet they will be every bit as inflated as Palm's numbers) that margin will be 24 : 1.

No matter how great the Palm may or may not be, it is still the Betamax of the smartphone market.

[1MacGeek]

jabberwolf said:

The pre is way more capable, faster, more useful than the iphone.

And according to analysts : crashes more, overheats, suffers from a dearth of apps, and the battery life just sucks compared to the iPhone. Oh, yeah - and it costs more. I am sorry the passion for the Pre blinds nearly everyone here, but Palm is dead.

Palm bet the company on the Pre and it just didn't happen.

jabberwolf said:

They UNDERestimated demand for the pre... playing it safe.

No. You can come up with all the fantasies you wish, but the reality is found in the balance sheet of Palm. They simply didn't have enough cash to compete at the same level as Apple.

The current equity of Palm is a - $84 million. NEGATIVE $84 million. Palm is already broke. They are dead. They are running a net operating margin of almost NEGATIVE 118%.

Anyone who buys a Pre is a fool. Palm will not be around long enough to honor whatever passes for a warranty. Since they have to account for the subscription price of monthly service (Oh, God - please tell me they were smart enough to copy Apple on this!) it means they will only book 1/24th of the revenue each month for the next two years. And even if we lose our minds and craft the fantasy that Pre sold 10 X more units than reality, it STILL wouldn't be enough to save the company.

I only wish people participating in this discussion could do simple math and read a balance sheet. Not that you would pay attention to reality, but you really would sound a lot less stupid when you make some of these outrageous claims that can't be backed up with reality.

[1MacGeek]

dogrivergrad68 said:

hahahahaha! It was an upgrade of an existing product, not a new entrant.
SNIP
Palm has nothing else like the Pre, so it can be considered a brand new entrant to the market. The iPhone 3G was not.

Oh, really. So you mean to tell everyone here that Palm doesn't have any other products which :

* surf the internet
* check e-mail
* has GPS
* has Wi-Fi
* plays music and video

all in the same device? Do you really want to run with that? Seriously?

Last chance to change your story ...

[1MacGeek]

rfceo said:

*once again not a product with no prior model and I never compared the two launches But if you really want to go there,
we look at the original never before heard of iPhone, it only sold 270,000 units in the 3rd quarter 2007 (less than 100,000 average per month)

Which is still a 6 :1 advantage over a nearly-bankrupt Palm.

rfceo said:

Where are these Sprint stores with mass quantities of Pres, there are some people who are waiting for them that would like to know?

In cities that don't have multi-million populations. I just came back from a major air show in the MidWest and Sprint had a booth set up. You could get a Pre there if you wanted one. They didn't sell a single one all weekend.

rfceo said:

*It really does not bother me (or break my little heart to pieces (shows how immature you really are)) one way or the other
about the iPhone selling 500000 3GS models, good for Apple.

Who said 500K? That wasn't me. The number being bandied about is 1.2 million. So that is the mark Palm needed to hit to have a prayer of taking on Apple, and they only fell 1.1 million units short.

rfceo said:

You were the only one comparing the launches between iPhone and Pre.

No, I was comparing the reality of the launches between iPhone and Pre. No matter how you want to attack the problem, Apple is selling a boatload more iPhones than Palm. For every iPhone, Apple robs Palm of a customer for two years. There are now 1.2 million fewer customers than before this weekend for Palm. Anyone with "ceo" in their name should understand the insanity of owning an increasing share of a decreasing market.

If the Pre is as different as the people here suggest (which is laughable, but let's run with it), then it is a market unto itself. And the numbers for the second week were much worse than the first week, no matter the cause. That is a decreasing market. Palm is - for all practical purposes - bankrupt. They needed all the cash from the Pre NOW, yet they can only get it 1/24th at a time. Even if Palm sold 1.2 million and Apple 100K it would still not save Palm from going out of business.

To repeat : Palm is at NEGATIVE $84 million in equity. Net income - NEGATIVE $640 million. Net operating margin - NEGATIVE 117%. Palm will not be around in two years. Buying a Pre is for emotional people who don't know how to read a balance sheet and see the reality and exactly how bad it is. Because even if Palm could overcome their financial doom, there are the big four flaws I mentioned earlier :

1. Landscape Keyboard
2. Overheating
3. Battery Life
4. Software Stability

These are all roadblocks to Palm selling the Pre in numbers that will save the company. There is precisely nothing Palm can do about 1, 2, and 3. Not one blessed thing. It is the nature of the beast, for better, or in this case worse. Palm already put out a patch for # 4, but it is like using a kleenex to mop up the ocean. There are simply too many other things wrong that even if they get # 4 perfect, it still won't save the company.

Yes, Apple won the "smart phone" wars. Yes, the Pre fizzled. Yes, it was a failure. No, it won't save the company. Yes, Palm is dead.

It's only a matter of time.

[achristie]

What overheating?? I have NONE!
What sotfware stability issues?? I have NONE!

Battery life. At least I can buy an extended life batter if I really wanted to. But this is not that big of an issue for me.
http://store.precent...y/8A37A5644.htm

Landscape keyboard. Yeah, I wish it had one. But that's WAY minor compared to what the Pre CAN do! And with the regular software updates, I'm sure it won't be long before the Pre has that option.

By the way, there are three other people in the office where I work that have Pres and theirs works as beautifly and elegantly as mine does.

Here's a pretty simple equasion for you... 1MacGeek = idiot.
If
you're going to be so adamant about what you write and you expect
people to believe you and want to have any credibility whatsoever, then
to throw stuff out that's SO obviously wrong! For everyone else, I'd hightly recomment not responding to this joker anymore becuase it's a lot like trying to debate with a 7 year old.

[swagg]

im going to stay away from this post, only because i dont care about sales and numbers comparing how many pres have been sold against the iphone, all of which is irrelivent to the fact that the pre is a better phone. and alls i want is a pre in my hand, and ill prolly nvr come back to this horrible website again.. because I know that it has the same exact capabilities as the iphone in EVERY WAY except a video camera of which i have an HD camcorder that is about the size of an iphone so im not concerned at all..

have fun keeping your negative outlook on something i can garuntee you have nvr even had your hands on... this guy is a joke, and PC world is still letting him write.. i hope they arent proud, or maybe this guy is under a contract.. either way, him playing in traffic would make more sence for him than writing on here...

[achristie]

swagg, you are wise to not waste your time with such idiotic lunacy!

I have the Pre and I can assure you that you will not be disappointed when you get one. It's an awesome device with an exciting future! It still amazes me every day that I use it. I love how they've packed so much power and flexibility into something so small and comfy that fits easily into your pocket.

The video camera is just a matter of time.

[swagg]

achristie said:

swagg, you are wise to not waste your time with such idiotic lunacy!

I have the Pre and I can assure you that you will not be disappointed when you get one. It's an awesome device with an exciting future! It still amazes me every day that I use it. I love how they've packed so much power and flexibility into something so small and comfy that fits easily into your pocket.

>
The video camera is just a matter of time.

[/quote]
>


[/quote]





Oh Snap! I forgot about the screenshot feature, it looks good!



Well, I am a Sprint Employee and so i have been doing a WHOLE lot of research, and I would already have it, but it is not available for Sprint Employees until 60 days after release date... I will have it then and im sure by then there will be some good updates and some good software to go with it..

[1MacGeek]

swagg said:

Well, I am a Sprint Employee and so i have been doing a WHOLE lot of research, and I would already have it,
but it is not available for Sprint Employees until 60 days after release date... I will have it then and im sure by
then there will be some good updates and some good software to go with it..

So what you are saying is that you have a financial interest in knocking Apple and promoting the Pre that you didn't disclose at the beginning of the conversation. Nice ethics. I have seen people fired in corporate America for less conflict-of-interest.

But the burning question in my mind is - HOW ?!?

The SDK for Web OS isn't going to be out - according to Palm's own admission - until August or September. Since you have done a WHOLE lot of research, perhaps you will share with us what alternate universe you will be visiting to fill your Pre with software in 60 days. It will take at least a couple of weeks for decent developers to get up to speed after the SDK release, and the Pre store will no doubt be choked with crap apps until that happens.

All of that is going to take time - time which Palm doesn't have. I take it your WHOLE lot of research didn't include reading Palm's balance sheet and seeing for yourself what a mess it is. If Palm liquidated TODAY they would still have to fork over $84 million they don't have just to break even. Unless someone with very deep pockets and very little brains gives Palm a half-billion dollar infusion, they are dead.

So how many developers do you think will flock to a dead company / dead platform? Surely your WHOLE lot of research will be able to give us some idea.

[swagg]

[quote name='1MacGeek']
>

swagg said:

> Well, I am a Sprint Employee and so i have been doing a WHOLE lot of research, and I would already have it,
> but it is not available for Sprint Employees until 60 days after release date... I will have it then and im sure by
> then there will be some good updates and some good software to go with it..

So what you are saying is that you have a financial interest in knocking Apple and promoting the Pre that you didn't disclose at the beginning of the conversation. Nice ethics. I have seen people fired in corporate America for less conflict-of-interest.

But the burning question in my mind is - HOW ?!?

The SDK for Web OS isn't going to be out - according to Palm's own admission - until August or September. Since you have done a WHOLE lot of research, perhaps you will share with us what alternate universe you will be visiting to fill your Pre with software in 60 days. It will take at least a couple of weeks for decent developers to get up to speed after the SDK release, and the Pre store will no doubt be choked with crap apps until that happens.

All of that is going to take time - time which Palm doesn't have. I take it your WHOLE lot of research didn't include reading Palm's balance sheet and seeing for yourself what a mess it is. If Palm liquidated TODAY they would still have to fork over $84 million they don't have just to break even. Unless someone with very deep pockets and very little brains gives Palm a half-billion dollar infusion, they are dead.

So how many developers do you think will flock to a dead company / dead platform? Surely your WHOLE lot of research will be able to give us some idea.

b4 i read your whole post, yeah i could prolly get in trouble if this information was for internal use, but it isnt, it is known that sprint employees wont be able to get the pre at the beginning, so mind your business with that.. and im not trying to promote anything other than my intrest in the Pre... and me working at sprint has nothingto do with my selection. i waited 6hours in line for the iphone when it fst came out, and was walking down the halls of our corporate building at Sprint the next day bragging about it.. though a couple months into it, realizing that my WinMo HTC did everything and more than the iphone, it just didnt have as good of a screen then returned it for a full refund.. they didnt want to give it to me at fst but after accusing them of selling faulty products, they were happy to refund me on the spot.

[swagg]

[quote name='1MacGeek']
> [quote name='swagg']
> Well, I am a Sprint Employee and so i have been doing a WHOLE lot of research, and I would already have it,
> but it is not available for Sprint Employees until 60 days after release date... I will have it then and im sure by
> then there will be some good updates and some good software to go with it..

So what you are saying is that you have a financial interest in knocking Apple and promoting the Pre that you didn't disclose at the beginning of the conversation. Nice ethics. I have seen people fired in corporate America for less conflict-of-interest.

But the burning question in my mind is - HOW ?!?

The SDK for Web OS isn't going to be out - according to Palm's own admission - until August or September. Since you have done a WHOLE lot of research, perhaps you will share with us what alternate universe you will be visiting to fill your Pre with software in 60 days. It will take at least a couple of weeks for decent developers to get up to speed after the SDK release, and the Pre store will no doubt be choked with crap apps until that happens.

All of that is going to take time - time which Palm doesn't have. I take it your WHOLE lot of research didn't include reading Palm's balance sheet and seeing for yourself what a mess it is. If Palm liquidated TODAY they would still have to fork over $84 million they don't have just to break even. Unless someone with very deep pockets and very little brains gives Palm a half-billion dollar infusion, they are dead.

So how many developers do you think will flock to a dead company / dead platform? Surely your WHOLE lot of research will be able to give us some idea.hey go to my profile and go read all my post, and after doing so, you will see that i could care less about productivity or numbers, or sales, or whatever..i prolly wont have the pre for 2 years b4 i get another phone, lol cause i get to upgrade every year ;), and i know palm will be around for at least that long, so im not worried about it at all... I know what the pre will do and what they will be able to do, because i have seen all the people that dogged and were not sure about the iphone coming out, because there will always be haters.. and if you really think that palm isnt going to be able to stay alive after this release and the release of newer phones coming out, then you are in need of some serious help... i just want the phone in my hand, and i can tell you, that when i do have it in my hands, you will see my review only once, and it will be the last time you hear from me on this horrible discussion board because ill have what i want, and you will still be here with your sync cord as a whip and itunes as your sheild trying to put a product down, just to get your rocks off. but in the end, i will be a happy palm user. and trust me, i wont dog you for switching to a pre, when or if you ever get your hands on one...