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Do I Need a 1080p HDTV?

#1 User is offline   PCWorld Icon

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 07:30 AM

Post your comments for Do I Need a 1080p HDTV? here
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#2 User is online   ToyotaTundra Icon

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 07:57 AM

If your TV is 32 inches or smaller, it's not really going to matter if it's 1080P or not. And even then, you probably won't be able to tell the difference. I don't believe any of the broadcast stations are broadcasting any programs in 1080P anyway.
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#3 User is offline   RickB4120 Icon

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:36 AM

Common Tundra think about what you just said here..."I don't believe any of the broadcast stations are broadcasting any programs in 1080P anyway"...90% of all broadcasting by any major venue is putting out the 1080P signal waves. Thats why your able to SEE and RECEIVE 1080P reception! Some are just better than others! Just a note here...DISH Network has the WORST of the HD signal ratings in the majors and is also one of the MOST expensive.
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#4 User is offline   WinTard Icon

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 04:53 AM

h4. Short answer is: YES!
Actually, there is HD, and then there is FULL-HD.

HD was a marketing term used before (now) and like in the case of audio amplifiers measured power in Watts, unscrupulous sellers came up with ridiculous ratings such as 1000 Watts, when in fact the actual Continuous RMS (Root Mean Square) at a certain frequency bandwidth (20Hz ~ 20,000Hz) at a certain level of distortion (0.01%) was in effect in the mere miliwatt, if at all possible (due to the ridicously high intermodulation and harmonic distortions)... Thus the FTC came up with legislation requiring some sanity and honesty in terms of specifications for audio Hi-Fi amplifiers...

Now that True HD is here, there is only ONE resolution that is: 1920 pixels horizontal by 1080 pixels vertical.

The 1080i or 1080p designations are irrelevant as all sources of pictures are recorded, and broadcasted in ONE format, which is 1080i (which means interlaced).

While using scanning technologies, such as provided by the CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) requiring electro-magnetic deflection of an electron beam(s) hitting a phosphorescent technique to produce a 'moving' image, the interlaced means sweeping the beam across the entire surface of the display. In effect, the picture a viewer sees is composed of only one spot (pixel) swept and turned on/off appropriately across the screen producing an entire image.

Nowadays, using digital technologies for display screens, there is no need to sweep an electron beam at all, simply address each pixel individually turning them on/off appropriately in the matrix (horizontal) x (vertical). Thus the 1080p designation which means progressive.

Progressive isn't any better than interlaced visually, just simpler and cheaper to implement. In effect you get LESS technology in between you and the ultimate Picture Quality (PQ). But less means more, since there are NO artifacts introduced while 'progressively' displaying one picture frame at a time.

That said, off the air HD broadcasts are of the 1080i flavor, thus a 1080p TV set must recombine in the digital time domain a full picture and display it 60 times per second from an original alternating (odd/even) frame half picture sent 30 times per second...

Due to bandwidth limitations, IPTV (NetFlix and the like), HD cable and HD satellite usually use the lower resolution (720) and call it HD.

Bottom line is it ISN'T Full-HD.

Regardless, some of the better broadcasters out there especially those not for profit, such as PBS transmit off the air, in Full-HD at 1080i (interlaced).

If your HD TV set is for real, meaning Full-HD (1080i/p) and not a subset of HD, such as 720, or some intermediate native resolution (1366 horizontal x whatever vertical), that means you will be able to enjoy the state-of-the-art in terms of HD.

If there were no charlatans out there, there would be no need for Full-HD.

Any transcoding is BAD as it introduces artifacts (distortions) in the PQ. Thus the best available HD PQ would be Full-HD @ 1920 horiz x 1080 vert...

Coming back to the short answer: Yes you need a Full-HD 1920x1080 native resolution display to avoid any PQ degradation. (p) or (i) is irrelevant to resolution. Diagonal size of the screen is also irrelevant to resolution and PQ.

The rest is crap! And a lie! You are being ripped-off, if your screen isn't native 1920x1080 resolution. Even a 16" laptop can be Full-HD, take for instance a Dell Studio XPS 16 @ 1920x1080 (non-interlaced = p).

Note that a 1920x1080i broadcast signal can be viewed on a lesser (720) screen, and still look better than your regular non-HD TV. But you are not getting the full picture in its full glory.

For DVD's Blu-Ray players deliver 1080p at the signal level, meaning your HDTV won't have to recombine odd/even alternating frames. That's it. That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less. But it won't look any better. That depends on your HDTV other qualities, such as dynamic contrast ratio, black level, luminance level, chrominance spectrum gamut, and a slew of other factors... Upconverted DVD @ 480 are a joke as far as PQ is concerned.

(!) Remember:
h4. Any Form Of Transcoding or Up/Down-Converting is BAD !
~~~~~~~~~~
The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.
{Chinese Proverb}
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#5 User is offline   WinTard Icon

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 05:13 AM

Hey welcome RickB4120 to our wonderful PCWorld Community!

The reason Dish-HD has the worst PQ of HD satellite is their use of a bastardized 'Turbo-FEC' MPEG4 encoding proprietary (non-standard) variant, designed to cram more channels, into less-bandwidth, to maximize profits. Same bandwidth limitations apply to others IPTV, such as NetFlix. Low PQ in HD is the result... Just look at youtubeHD. What a joke!

That said, it's better than regular TV, or regular youtube.... Thanks for that. :D

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Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
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#6 User is offline   RickB4120 Icon

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 07:58 AM

Very nicely put indeed Wintard!...and I do like your screenname! B-)
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#7 User is online   jayaraj Icon

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 07:51 AM

If the screen size is 32" or smaller 720p is all you need and 1080p is a waste of money in most cases.
I have a few wedding videos that are on 720p that takes just half the file size of 1080p. I looked at both and I couldn't tell the difference
I should also say that 720p is fabulous compared to 480i because they are like Elephant Vs Ant in terms of picture quality. 720p is a lot clearer, sharper and nicer.
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#8 User is offline   jimj Icon

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 10:15 AM

The answer is a question of TV size and viewing distance. With a 6 foot viewing distance, the maximum resolution of the human eye basically matches the pixel size of a 32", 720p TV. 720P is about all the eye can see at that viewing distance. So for normal viewing distances, 720P for 32" or less TV's, and 1080 for larger TV's is a good guide. If your viewing distance is shorter (say 4') then 1080 becomes more valuable on a 32" set, but likely not on a 26" or smaller set.
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:57 AM

RickB4120 said:

Common Tundra think about what you just said here..."I don't believe any of the broadcast stations are broadcasting any programs in 1080P anyway"...90% of all broadcasting by any major venue is putting out the 1080P signal waves. Thats why your able to SEE and RECEIVE 1080P reception! Some are just better than others! Just a note here...DISH Network has the WORST of the HD signal ratings in the majors and is also one of the MOST expensive.


It more than just the broadcast signal...it is also a function of what the shows were taped in. The reality is that NONE of the major networks currently broadcast 1080p content to my knowledge. The only 1080p content is some pay-per-view movies that some satellite companies broadcast in and BluRay (or HD-DVD if you have one) player play in and maybe some downloaded video content.
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#10 User is offline   smax013 Icon

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:20 PM

WinTard said:

h4. Short answer is: YES!
Actually, there is HD, and then there is FULL-HD.

HD was a marketing term used before (now) and like in the case of audio amplifiers measured power in Watts, unscrupulous sellers came up with ridiculous ratings such as 1000 Watts, when in fact the actual Continuous RMS (Root Mean Square) at a certain frequency bandwidth (20Hz ~ 20,000Hz) at a certain level of distortion (0.01%) was in effect in the mere miliwatt, if at all possible (due to the ridicously high intermodulation and harmonic distortions)... Thus the FTC came up with legislation requiring some sanity and honesty in terms of specifications for audio Hi-Fi amplifiers...

Now that True HD is here, there is only ONE resolution that is: 1920 pixels horizontal by 1080 pixels vertical.


Nope. 720p is "true" HD. It is just not as high a resolution HD as 1080i or 1080p.

Since you like to quote Wikipedia so much (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definitiontelevision#High-definitiondisplay_resolutions):

"High Definition usually refers to 720 or more lines of video format resolution displayed in a horizontal fashion from top to bottom."

Quote

The 1080i or 1080p designations are irrelevant as all sources of pictures are recorded, and broadcasted in ONE format, which is 1080i (which means interlaced).

While using scanning technologies, such as provided by the CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) requiring electro-magnetic deflection of an electron beam(s) hitting a phosphorescent technique to produce a 'moving' image, the interlaced means sweeping the beam across the entire surface of the display. In effect, the picture a viewer sees is composed of only one spot (pixel) swept and turned on/off appropriately across the screen producing an entire image.

Nowadays, using digital technologies for display screens, there is no need to sweep an electron beam at all, simply address each pixel individually turning them on/off appropriately in the matrix (horizontal) x (vertical). Thus the 1080p designation which means progressive.

Progressive isn't any better than interlaced visually, just simpler and cheaper to implement. In effect you get LESS technology in between you and the ultimate Picture Quality (PQ). But less means more, since there are NO artifacts introduced while 'progressively' displaying one picture frame at a time.


Oh, yes, progressive is better visually than interlaced. A 1080p picture has twice the data as a 1080i picture. A single frame of 1080p contains the full content of the frame. A single frame of 1080i will contain half the content and needs the second frame to complete the "full" picture. All this is done in the same amount of time. As a result, your mind/eyes must "interpolate" the missing content for 1080i. The result is that you will "see" artifacts and blurring even though it is technically not there.

The point is that what your mind sees is more than just the resolution. In the end, a true progressive scan picture is always better than an interlaced picture.

Quote

That said, off the air HD broadcasts are of the 1080i flavor, thus a 1080p TV set must recombine in the digital time domain a full picture and display it 60 times per second from an original alternating (odd/even) frame half picture sent 30 times per second...

Due to bandwidth limitations, IPTV (NetFlix and the like), HD cable and HD satellite usually use the lower resolution (720) and call it HD.

Bottom line is it ISN'T Full-HD.

Regardless, some of the better broadcasters out there especially those not for profit, such as PBS transmit off the air, in Full-HD at 1080i (interlaced).

If your HD TV set is for real, meaning Full-HD (1080i/p) and not a subset of HD, such as 720, or some intermediate native resolution (1366 horizontal x whatever vertical), that means you will be able to enjoy the state-of-the-art in terms of HD.

If there were no charlatans out there, there would be no need for Full-HD.

Any transcoding is BAD as it introduces artifacts (distortions) in the PQ. Thus the best available HD PQ would be Full-HD @ 1920 horiz x 1080 vert...

Coming back to the short answer: Yes you need a Full-HD 1920x1080 native resolution display to avoid any PQ degradation. (p) or (i) is irrelevant to resolution. Diagonal size of the screen is also irrelevant to resolution and PQ.

The rest is crap! And a lie! You are being ripped-off, if your screen isn't native 1920x1080 resolution. Even a 16" laptop can be Full-HD, take for instance a Dell Studio XPS 16 @ 1920x1080 (non-interlaced = p).


Nope. You will NEVER notice the difference between a 1080p and 720p picture on a 16" screen at typical TV sitting distances. And that is precisely why most smaller HDTVs (i.e. less than 30") do NOT come in 1080p. If you are sitting about 6 feet from the TV, then you will NEVER notice the benefit of a 1080p program on a 30" HDTV...and if someone sold you that TV rather than the cheaper 720p HDTV, then they are ripping you off.

Whether or not you gain the full benefit of a particular HD resolution/format is a function of screen size and distance you sit from the TV:

Posted Image

Graphic from the following page: http://www.carltonba...oads/resolutionchart.png, which is references in this article: http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/8807;ylt=AlnUbSA7XVuPm3FvADmw74xqMZA5
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Posted 30 June 2009 - 01:14 PM

Another point for 720p is gaming.

720p gives you 60 FRAMES (not fields) per second. 1080p doesn't.

So, for liquid smooth animation, you'll usually want to set up a game console (or PC hooked up to an HDTV) to play in 720p mode (or even 480p - some games there's no visible difference).
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#12 User is offline   hombreacustico3000 Icon

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:12 PM

if your tv is 42 inches and you watch more movies on a 1080p upscaler av receiver then you should have full hd capability to get a better picture.

View PostToyotaTundra, on 24 June 2009 - 07:57 AM, said:

If your TV is 32 inches or smaller, it's not really going to matter if it's 1080P or not. And even then, you probably won't be able to tell the difference. I don't believe any of the broadcast stations are broadcasting any programs in 1080P anyway.

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#13 User is offline   mjd420nova Icon

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:24 PM

Wintard: I'm surprised that you understand the audio basics. Very few even know what the terms mean, let alone know how to interpret them. Thumbs up for you.
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#14 User is offline   WinTard Icon

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:47 PM

View Postmjd420nova, on 05 October 2009 - 10:24 PM, said:

Wintard: I'm surprised that you understand the audio basics. Very few even know what the terms mean, let alone know how to interpret them. Thumbs up for you.


And ditto to you my friend mjd420nova. Posted Image Thank you my friend!
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