[WinTard]

anthonyx26 said:

>

Quote

MS' crappy upgrade policy for Vista Ultimate users says nothing of the effectiveness of their software vs say linux.

And what crappy upgrade policy for Vista Ultimate are we referring to?

[anthonyx26]

Uhhh...the one this article is based on. The one that does not offer Vista Ultimate users the same courtesy version discount as those who currently own Vista Home or Vista Business and are looking to upgrade to the corresponding Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional editions.

- anthonyx26

[WinTard]

This article is bashing NONSENSE BS. As usual from PCWorld...
I've been using Windows 7 Ultimate x64 since Jan 13 2009 starting with beta builds 7000 following all interim builds. This gives anyone the opportunity to try out Windows 7 Ultimate for 18 months for free, since the timer will expire on June 30th 2010...
I paid $205 for Vista Ultimate x64 two years ago. If I have to pay for Windows 7 Ultimate x64 for around $200, I'm perfectly willing to do it.
Rationale is I will upgrade both the hardware and software at the same time, going to a new i7 quad-core. So what will I use with that machine? Considering I will still use my existing gaming machine which is a Q6600 quad-core overclocked to 3+ GHz?
So regardless, I must purchase another copy of Windows 7 Ultimate for the new system. And am hoping for something in the order of $129 to upgrade the older quad-core system to Windows 7 Ultimate x64 as well. Once Microsoft announces any promotion concerning the 'Ultimate' version. Come on, it's not even released yet, yet everybody is bashing...
With derogatory mean spirited titles such as 'screwed'... What are the unsuspecting neophytes to think? The astute readers will see the insidious malicious intents in those biased authors, with a HUGE chip on their shoulders...
There we go again, being misled by malcontent authors...
Not you Anthonyx26. The silly author to this article.
PS: Will somebody fix this underlining problem at forums.pcworld.com? Anybody there?
h4. Why don't you scrap this PC World Community powered by Jive Software's Clearspace ® -1.10.1 (Version: {3}) ASAP....

[lutra]

But you can still upgrade to Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional inspite of your current version of Vista, so you can still get a low cost upgrade if you wish it. Besides, what does Ultimate have that Professional doesn't? BitLocker and multi-language support? Professional has everything that you really would want in Windows 7 and at $99.99 for the upgrade, it's a good deal. I personally wouldn't worry about getting the Ultimate Edition.

[anthonyx26]

Quote

But you can still upgrade to Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional inspite of your current version of Vista. so you can still get a low cost upgrade if you wish it"

I'm well aware of this available upgrade path, but it just feels like a snubbing of Ultimate customers by MS.

Quote

Besides, what does Ultimate have that Professional doesn't? BitLocker and multi-language support? Professional has everything that you really would want in Windows 7 and at $99.99 for the upgrade, it's a good deal. I personally wouldn't worry about getting the Ultimate Edition.

Yeah I hear you, and indeed when I first learned of no available discounted upgrade for Vista Ultimate to W7 Ultimate, this was my first thought. I just wonder if this will be a supported upgrade path (Vista Utimate to Win7 Professional). Will Win7 permit version/upgrades with edition/downgrades? And if so, it seems like MS may be shooting themselves in the foot (by losing out on potential extra revenue than had they just offered current Ultimate users a discount on the upgrade Win7 Ultimate), given many Ultimate users may opt to only upgrade to Win7 Professional, eschewing Win7 Ultimate.
* anthonyx26

ps - switched to plain text mode to see if it would clear the underlines, and it didnt make any difference. :-(

[WinTard]

Um, me too. It's not on the end-user (client) side. This underlining problem is on the server side @ PCWorld... Thanks to yet another atrocious bug in:

PC World Community powered by Jive Software's Clearspace ? -1.10.1 (Version: {3}) - Submit product feedback ? Jive Software

But I'm experimenting here, since this started with a poster underlining things ^1^, I did my own underline and wonder what will happen? Guess what it's fixed (until someone underlines something in their posts, which might affect all other subsequent posts by other members... Doh!)

~~~~~~~~~~
The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
~ Dorothy Parker
-----
^1^ Post # 97. Jul 1, 2009 1:20 PM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Are Some Vista Users Getting Screwed on Windows 7?

[rgreen4]

anthonyx26 -

You can always do a clean install, in fact most true professionals recommend that anyway as a way to make sure that your new OS does not have any left over inconsistencies from the old OS.

WinTard -

No one is more ready to ditch clearspace than the people at PCW who have to maintain the thing. Hopefully, in about 6 weeks we will have completed the transisiteion (based on the latest info from the staff).

[MicTig]

"[~155526] says: Thu Jun 25 17:25:25 PDT 2009

Perhaps you could provide a list of the software you are talking about..."



I stick to Windows because of gaming. My list: L4D, Garry's Mod, FlatOut Ultimate Carnage, Prototype, Rainbow Six Vegas 2, The Sims 3, AA3, COD WAW (which sucks BTW), Combat Arms, Dolphin GC and Wii Emulator, HAWX, various "PopCap" games, and many others. And I don't want to fuss with video drivers that are handicaped (retarted for my HD4870) and I don't want to fuss with Wine and have performance impacts. I'm sorry but Linux isn't the "Fix-All" solution for everyone =).

[anthonyx26]

> You can always do a clean install, in fact most true professionals recommend that anyway as a way to make sure that your new OS does not have any left over inconsistencies from the old OS.
[/quote]

Well, according to Ina Fried in the following article, as well as my own recollection on this area, there won't be any choice about doing a clean install (assuming I want to move from Vista/Ultimate to Win7/Professional). You'll have to do a clean install if you want to downgrade editions.

news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10274963-56.html?tag=rtcol;inTheNewsNow

I will grant you that doing a clean install may be an acceptable and even recommended option for most home PC users, but I'm a hardcore business PC user. My Vista PC works wonderfully right now, and its gots loads of customization throughout (nothing is installed nor auto-started that doesn't absolutely need to be). I really loathe the idea of having to start everything from scratch again. It will take several days, if not more than a week to fully reinstall and reconfigure all apps and data.


* anthonyx26

[smax013]

WinTard said:

PS: Will somebody fix this underlining problem at forums.pcworld.com? Anybody there?

All fixed. One of the previous posters has some underline coding in their post and for some dumb reason the forum software decided that meant EVERYTHING needed to be underlined from there on out.

Quote

h4. Why don't you scrap this PC World Community powered by Jive Software's Clearspace ® -1.10.1 (Version: {3}) ASAP....

In the works...takes time to get the new software tested and up and running.

[ShannonVanWagner]

MicTig, I really appreciate your detailed response.. Because unlike some posters - you spell out the problem in detail. I think that people who trash GNU/Linux without providing any specific details, are motivated by something other than making computers work better for people. Like the person who said one can take much time to get software working on Linux, well I'm here to tell ya - I have experienced the same type of software problems on many different OSes, i.e., Windows, Mac OSX, Solaris, yes and even Linux. To say as a blanket statement that one can only experience software configuration problems in Linux, is rather ignorant and totally baseless actually.

I fully agree that there are certain applications that don't work (yet) with GNU/Linux... and by providing a specific list, you are helping to solve these types of problems. GNU/Linux isn't for everyone, yes it's true.But if you're a person, who like me, has seen many iterations of users being sucked into the proprietary software model(and chewed up by it) - only to see their computers burst into a security mushroom cloud of a meltdown because of crapware and malware like the Vundo and Smitfraud root-kits spewing volumes of traffic across port 25 to mail servers in other countries... than I'm here to tell you... there's nothing better than the FREEDOM of GNU/Linux. And besides that, try losing your License key, or forgetting to "activate" for Linux...lol.. not gonna happen - because you don't have to use these types of restrictions.

GNU/Linux isn't for everyone, but it is for those who want to benefit from the contributions of humankind to computer science, and it is for those who want to get satisfaction from using computers again.

As for the software you outline, some work in WINE, like L4D for instance - see this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=far0jjAlg24 and others don't (yet) - but you can be sure of one thing... for every new user to GNU/Linux - the better things will get. Also, as for performance - I've seen some say that certain games actually perform better in WINE. And Linux may not be the "Fix-All", but supporting Computer Science, and not trashing it with greed, should definately get you closer.

Please also have a look at:
[http://digg.com/linuxunix/OpenLettertoGameMakersInvestigatetheGNULinuxniche]

Here's some more information for you to check out(like I said, some work, some not):
Garry's Mod - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji4KlTGeaAw]
FlatOut Ultimate Carnage - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=7964]
Prototype (not sure this is right) - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=14629&iTestingId=34575]
Rainbow Six Vegas 2 - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=7099]
The Sims 3 - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE8c_8fsN3U]
AA3 - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIRrHSyLuTI]
COD WAW - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=14475]
Combat Arms - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=7960]
Dolphin GC and Wii Emulator - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=8021]
HAWX - [http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=15906&iTestingId=38479]

Please also have a look at these GNU/Linux gaming resources (most have FREE games):
[http://www.lgdb.org/list_games]
[http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com]
[http://linux-gamers.net]
[http://icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php]
[http://happypenguin.org]
[http://www.linuxgames.com]
[http://tombuntu.com/index.php/2008/09/02/playdeb-the-gaming-repository-for-ubuntu]
[http://www.dedoimedo.com/computer_games.html]
World of Goo (awesome game) [http://2dboy.com/games.php]




And finally, see these links for more examples and videos:
[http://www.humans-enabled.com/2008/11/dell-inspiron-530n-nvidia-9400gt-ubuntu.html]
[http://www.youtube.com/thecoolguy4linux]

[anthonyx26]

> one can take much time to get software working on Linux, well I'm here to tell ya - I have experienced the same type of software problems on many different OSes, i.e., Windows, Mac OSX, Solaris, yes and even Linux.
[/quote]
So basically, you're admitting there is little technical benefit to migrating to Linux. Configuration problems I experience in Windows I will also experience in Linux.



> To say as a blanket statement that one can only experience software configuration problems in Linux, is rather ignorant and totally baseless actually.
[/quote]
As soon as you get beyond the basics in Linux, it gets far more complicated to attempt to replicate the functionality users already have in their Windows based apps.



> I fully agree that there are certain applications that don't work (yet) with GNU/Linux... and by providing a specific list, you are helping to solve these types of problems.
[/quote]
So users should adopt Linux in order to solve their own and other's application compatibility problems. That is, problem which they didn't have prior to using Linux.



> GNU/Linux isn't for everyone, yes it's true.But if you're a person, who like me, has seen many iterations of users being sucked into the proprietary software model(and chewed up by it)
[/quote]
What is proprietary software? Software that a user more than happily pays for and accomplishes a certain task for that user. If they're unhappy with it, they can complain to the maker and get it resolved through an update or a refund, no different than if a person walks into a store and buys a toaster (of course with hard goods it's more difficult to update the end product once it's out in the field).



> only to see their computers burst into a security mushroom cloud of a meltdown because of crapware and malware like the Vundo and Smitfraud root-kits spewing volumes of traffic across port 25 to mail servers in other countries
[/quote]
You don't think if suddenly a large mass of less-than savvy users adopted Linux PCs, they too would also suddenly become the target of crapware and malware? Open your eyes. Stop spreading your own ignorance.



> GNU/Linux isn't for everyone, but it is for those who want to benefit from the contributions of humankind to computer science, and it is for those who want to get satisfaction from using computers again.
[/quote]
What's so bad about benefitting not only from but also benefitting the very people who work tirelessly to put together proprietary software solutions? Buying their software, helps me address my needs/desires but also keeps the developers gainfully employed. Puts bread in the mouths of their children. I don't see Linux doing that to any large degree. To the contrary, it consumes a large amount of people's time when they're not working and earning money to feed their families. While that may be altruistic, it's not very respectful of their own family's needs.



* anthonyx26

[rgreen4]

Are we back on what works and what doesn't work in Linux? The heading says "Are Some Vista Users Getting Screwed on Windows 7?" and the article is about upgrade options to Windows 7 Ultimate for those running Windows Vista Ultimate.

[markww]

I have to sat Microsoft has messed everyone over. Folks Windows 7 is not Windows 7 but the way VISTA should have been in the first place. Ever since Redmond came out with windows, they have what 12 different copies of windows. Vista came out and was a bad as the ME version some years back. Vista doesn't work they knew at at Microsoft,and they fixed it by BLINDING people saying we have windows 7 yes right it is just the Vista Fix and the ultimate users got nothing but a coule of games way to go Microsoft you have lost our faith in you as a computer company and your going after everyone else again BAIT AND SWITCH is all it is
Mark

[rgreen4]

markww said:

I have to sat Microsoft has messed everyone over. Folks Windows 7 is not Windows 7 but the way VISTA should have been in the first place.

You can say that about all the versions of every OS. After all, looking back, Windows 3.1 is what 3.0 should have been, it took a few more years to get there. Windows 98 is what Windows 95 should have been, it just took three years to get there. Windows XP is what Windows 2000 should have been, it just took a few years to get there, and now of course your above statement, of course there are three years of additional development. Even OS/X when they release Snow Leopard, it's what Leopard should have been, but of course it took three additional years to get there.

markww said:

Vista came out and was a bad as the ME version some years back.

From that statement, it is obvious that you have never really used either OS for any length of time. Vista is far more capable, more secure and stable. I can truly say that on the three systems I have running Vista, one for over two years on it, that I have yet to have my first BSOD or crash. But then on my older XP systems, in the six years I have had them, I have also never had a BSOD or crash. Of course in recent years, they haven't had much opportunity as I have been using the Vista machines.

[WinTard]

What a cynic you are! LOL!

~~~~~~~~~~
The only deadly sin I know is cynicism.
~ Henry L. Stimson

A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future.
~ Sydney J. Harris

An idealist believes the short run doesn't count. A cynic believes the long run doesn't matter. A realist believes that what is done or left undone in the short run determines the long run.
~ Sydney J. Harris (American Journalist and Author, 1917-1986)

[TechieXP]

I to have Vista Ultimate, but I purchased the OEM version for 199.99...
I thought 399.99 was a ridiculous cost for the retail copy. I never seen Windows cost more than 299.99 on average.
219 surely isn't a discount as that is basically the cost of Vista Ultimate upgrade. I too think since Ultimate users paid so much more and didn't get everything MSFT promised we should get an upgrading discount offer. I think 49.99 should have simply been he pre-release price for all 3.
If I get Ultimate 7 I'll simply get a pirated copy...screw this. I already paid for 2 of each of the other 2. No way I am forking over premium to MSFT this time. Even tho 199.99 isn't as bad as the retail copy...I am siding with other Ultimate users who feel MSFT is shamming us.
I don't think anything should be free...but anything below $100 would have been fair for all the loses we suffered...
I think we all shouldn't buy the ultimate version at all...it only offers 2 features not found on the Professional version. That's how we show MSFT how we feel...with your wallets.

[TechieXP]

Please...I may not be happy with MSFT right now, but I'm not stupid. Linux doesn't even come close to being what Windows is. If it was and being free, it would have slaughtered Windows already.

[anthonyx26]

> I think we all shouldn't buy the ultimate version at all...it only offers 2 features not found on the Professional version. That's how we show MSFT how we feel...with your wallets.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, this is easier said than done. Windows 7 Ultimate's biggest un-advertised "feature", is its ability to support direct upgrades from a Vista Ultimate PC. Otherwise, if you're a current Vista Ultimate user and you want to downgrade editions to say, Win7 Professional (to take advantage of the current discount upgrade pricing), you will need to rebuild your PC from scratch, since the installer will not permit an in-place upgrade installation.
* anthonyx26

[WinTard]

I must state the best of breed practice is to perform a bare metal installation for ANY OS... Upgrades usually import all the inherent and existing troubles a user might have with their systems...

Please Google Results 1 - 10 of about 276,000 for bare metal install. (0.18 seconds)

Also, going from a 32-bit version to the (apparently twice as fast) 64-bit version, is better done from scratch.

Doing a pristine installation delivers the following advantages:
- You ensure that you have an integral verified backup of all your existing data.
- The applications can always be re-installed, usually with the latest upgrade versions, and possibly 64-bit native apps.
- You can also put away the backup (old) existing disk into a fire-proof safe, or offsite, for disaster prevention, in addition to being able to boot the old OS should you need to.
- You mitigate the risk of damaging anything, since you perform the install WITHOUT your existing (old) OS/Apps/Data drive connected.
- The cost of a brand-new HDD is reasonable nowadays, around $120 for 1.5TB of the fastest available ^1^ (cost/performance) 7200RPM, largest cache (32MB), fastest transfer rate (3G per second for SATA III)
- Usually, the first things to go in any computer system are moving parts, such as CD/DVD, fans, and HDD's. Getting a brand new (3~5 years warranty) HDD mitigates statistically the probability of your existing (old) HDD from impending failure due to attrition and old-age...
- It is the fastest and most cost-efficient way to perform a full verified backup, since the old-existing HDD is your BACKUP, and you simply copy it verbatim onto your new HDD. Saving time and money (since you don't have to procure any decent backup software) in the process.

This best-of-breed technique applies to all brands, systems, hardware or OS architectures...

~~~~~~~~~~
If all you have is a hammer, then everything must look like a nail.
~ Baruch's Observation
-----
^1^ Of course 15K RPM faster drives with different than SATA interfaces are available, but are definitely NOT cost effective, nor more reliable either...