[Boomshadow]

In order for you to prove me wrong, you have to make sense.

Fine. Warhammer doesn't run on Ubuntu/Wine. That was not an application mentioned in the initial discussion.

You still completely made up the $100 figure, and your explanation for it is missing several steps. Apparently, you're basing the figure on spending 10 hours trying to get Warhammer to run under Ubuntu/Wine. Considering that 9.04 COMES WITH WINE PRECONFIGURED, even though you apparently went through the manual process to install it in the first place for World of Warcraft, I now must conclude that you have no grasp of either documentation or time itself.

Getting back to the original point: Vista Ultimate users have the choice of paying a much higher price for 7 Ultimate than other Vista users do for the corresponding Windows 7 release, or upgrading to Ubuntu or some other flavor of GNU/Linux for free. That's been my point all along. Sure, there may be some Windows games that don't run under Ubuntu, but games were not specified as part of the original discussion, and were only brought up when it was helpfully pointed out by two independent posters here that office apps run just fine under Ubuntu/Wine.

For really good games, you also could just wait a year for it to come out for OS X. ;)

Seriously, though, my whole point is that Windows 7 Ultimate is reasonably easy, but unreasonably expensive. Ubuntu is free, and not unreasonably difficult if you're willing to actually think. If compatibility with games is an issue, then yes, that does force your hand. That's your problem. Good luck with that.

[Boomshadow]

The Linux users' point here was that Linux is an alternate choice to paying the exorbitant amount for Windows 7 Ultimate to upgrade from Windows Vista Ultimate. If we haven't made that clear (by the way, we're talking independently here; I don't know the other Linux advocate), I apologize, but that's no reason to yell in red caps. We ARE on topic; we're just saying things you don't seem to agree with, but posting things you agree with is not the point of this forum. Keep an open mind and be professional. While you're at it, that odd photo in your .sig isn't exactly on topic either.

[Boomshadow]

Where you spend money, I spend time. Good luck with your solution; I find my time well spent, especially since that's pretty much my only choice.

[rgreen4]

I don't know what "odd" photo you refer to since the signature is a combinating of several photos as well as two images. The signature is left to the discretion of the member, as log as it does not violate community standards as to content and language.
At to being on topic, the original article which is what the topic is about, was discussing the fact that those with Vista Ultimate were not being given a significant pre-order discount for the Windows 7 upgrade. It had nothing to do about alternative operating systems.
For that matter, those using Vista Ultimate are after features not offered in any other version of Vista or any other operating system. They decided early on that the features were worth some extra purchase price, either for the OS full install package, or an upgrade to a manufactured machine.
The moderators will allow a certain amount of off topic excursions, but having a significant amount of problems perviously in other threads, the decision has been made to maintain control. If you wish to discuss the relative merits of any Linux distro to any other OS, by all means feel free to open your own thread. Hijacking an existing thread to discuss at length an off topic item will not be permitted.
The moderators have also learned from the past that it is sometimes necessary to not only put the message in all caps, but in red to gain attention. It did get your attention. You now know the rules. If you wish to discuss the pricing aspects of the Windows 7 Upgrade pre-order options, feel free to continue here. If you desire to continue the other discussion, you can do it [here|c-2002] just by clicking on the blue button and start the discussion.

[Boomshadow]

Message was voluntarily edited by: Boomshadow

[WinTard]

I disagree, and feel rgreen4 is a great asset to this community, with in-depth knowledge and experience. I for one enjoy his contributions; low-activity members with 20 or so posts below the belt, are in no position to dictate to moderators with 6789+ posts.


Also, let's not bring Linux into this thread. For the greater good of those interested in on-topic discussion threads.

Thank you.
Edited by: smax013 on Jun 27, 2009

[ShannonVanWagner]

Question: Are Some Vista Users Getting Screwed on Windows 7?
Answer: YES! YES! YES!
Actually MANY vista users are getting screwed because they're having to pay a premium price for an upgrade to their Operating System when they could get a comparable (and in many instances even better) operating system (with upgrades) for absolutely FREE!
Here's an example:
You can download Ubuntu Linux from ubuntu.com and have FREE upgrades every six months forever! With Ubuntu Linux, you can also install thousands of titles of FREE software, of all different types imaginable, in a few clicks of your mouse.
So there it is. Are you listening Microsoft? People just aren't going to stand for being continuously SCREWED like this! People will move on to an alternative!
rgreen - Mr. Naval Aviator Signature guy.. If you served, then Right On. Thank You for your service! Me, I was a Paratrooper in the 82d Abn. But I have to ask, since when is this comments section restricted to talking about Windows only? Is PCWORLD a Microsoft website? I thought comments sections were meant to give people a way to share thoughts and help each other with the problem at hand. The problem at hand in this case(in my opinion and other's too) is that a dominating company is abusing its position by not giving people what they deserve. Many people think Vista was a shoddy product, and so people need to have a choice for a better product or better service. I'm simply offering an alternative. The alternative is FREEDOM through GNU/Linux.
FREE YOURSELF, Use GNU/LINUX! | linux.com | getgnulinux.org | ubuntuguide.org | whylinuxisbetter.net | openoffice.org | humans-enabled.com
Shannon VanWagner

[Boomshadow]

Ahhh-- so in your mind quantity trumps quality.
Also, my opinion is all I'm expressing here; I don't know what you feel my "station" is, but I suspect I will disagree with whatever you answer. While we're at it, I've been on PCWorld's community longer than you have, regardless of post volume, yet I don't try to pull some imaginary rank or seniority on you. I was challenging rgreen4's response on its merits, and I stand by that challenge regardless of pretty much anything. Being a member moderator does not confer limitless power without responsibility.

Again, my opinion is that since the upgrade to Windows 7 Ultimate is the most expensive OS upgrade at the consumer level, and since for many, whether they realize it or not, there are less expensive alternatives (even free ones), Windows Vista Ultimate upgraders ARE getting screwed. I assert my inalienable right to that opinion as I choose to express it regardless of challenge or threat of reprisal. There's moderation and there's strangling a thread to death. To use a non-computer-related example, if GM decided to release the Chevy Colorado/GM Canyon line of trucks with an unpopular 5-cylinder engine, and then charge a rate completely out of touch with the fair market choices offered by other manufacturers to pick a different engine, I would feel GM customers are getting screwed as well. Nothing here has convinced me that the options in the consumer OS market are any different.

Feel free to disagree, but I will decide what my "station" is. Thanks anyway.
Message was edited by: Boomshadow

[WinTard]

Let's agree to disagree, especially regarding quality... Note that statistically speaking, there is a linear correlation between sparse and numerous samplings and quality. ;)

~~~~~~~~~
Goodness is the only investment that never fails.
~ Henry David Thoreau

[Boomshadow]

Considering that 47 percent of statistics are made up, I'll agree to disagree. ;)

[WinTard]

Hey, I like your tagline! And your statistics... And your witty humor!

I always welcome an intellectual discussion, and appreciate your finesse.

Cheers! And my respects Sir!

~~~~~~~~~
The words of truth are always paradoxical.
~ Lao Tzu

[rgreen4]

I served and proudly so. There is also a discussion in the General Talk area called Sea Stories, War Stories and Lies which you may find interesting. It is a little quiet as of late, but maybe time to resurect with some stories I have received of late.

The siggy was generated for my by a good friend on these forums and sent to me as a Christmas gift. It has several meaningful images in it, not the least of which is an aircraft I flew and an aircraft carrier I was actually on (unless flying) when the photo was taken.

But, enough of that. The original question was about the lack of heavy discount for the users of Vista Ultimate who want to upgrade to Windows 7 Ultimate. What I find interesting is that there are at least two members, one of whom has posted in this thread, who have not take a position that I have seen.

Whether or not Vista is a shoddy product has been debated on these pages for over two years ad nauseum, and yet, I have few change their minds, and those few (again regular members) have become supporters of the product after acquiring a machine with it pre-installed and using it for a while. But even that is not on topic here.

You and many others seem to think that within any topic any discussion is permitted, no matter how unrelated it is. This is simply not the case. While it is certainly common for may discussions in a topic to go off topic for a while, most tend to come back on. But after a while, if is it apparent that it is not, then it tends to look more like hijacking of the thread has taken place. It is the role of the moderator to return the thread to the original topic. There has been a great deal of trouble on some threads in the past, and we saw a computer related discussion degenerate after some 700+ posts over two months and 56 or so pages, discussing the relative merits of 4 wheel drive versus All Wheel drive versus two wheel drive.

If instead of clicking on the topic on the opening page, you clicked on the News Discussion thread description on the left hand side of the main page you would see this: (Because the image is a thumnail, it is not readable until you click on it to enlarge and sharpen it).



However, even that did not slow down some, so any discussion that is so far off topic as to have lost it's original meaning will now be locked. The topic I referred to previously is locked and has been for some time. While you can still browse and read a thread that has been locked, you cannot post anything to it.

Comment sections are intended to give people a way to share thoughts and help each other with problems at hand. However, not in the news discussion area. If you have a problem with components, you are welcome to start a new question in that area. If you have a question about networking, start a discussion in that area. If you want to just talk about anything, you can start a discussion the the General Talk area (non-technical only). Actually one of the funniest is in that area and started by WinTard, just click on the General Talk area and it's at the top of the second page. Then we have our "Talk about anything discussion" which is now at 1,614 replies spread over 108 pages.

If you want to discuss the relative merits of Linux vs Windows, start a new discussion either in Windows or Linux areas. If you want to talk about the relative merits of OS/X vs Windows, open a new discussion in either the Mac or Windows areas. It is unfair to a member who when signing on, and going to the main page sees a news discussion topic titled "Are Some Vista Users Getting Screwed on Windows 7?" and clicks on it to give his viewpoint on that topic only to have it open to a discussion about installing and using Linux.

Now - back on topic everyone.

In my opinion since the "normal" upgrade price of Ultimate will be $20 more than Professional and the full retail price of Ultimate will be $20 more than Professional, then it would have only been fair to offer a pre-order discounted package for Ultimate for $20 more than the discounted price of Professional which would be $119.99. Here is the pricing announcement.

[smax013]

Boomshadow said:

Further, there is nothing wrong with pointing out alternative operating systems by way of saying that yes, some Vista users ARE getting screwed on Windows 7. It is not your job to tell us otherwise. Perhaps it is my job to have made that assertion clearer, but I've already accepted responsibility for that. Mea culpa.


Additionally, you are applying the rules in a way that supports your stance on the topic, which, if allowed, is an indictment of the entire PCWorld Member Moderation system.

From the Annoucement at the top of the News Discussion forum:

{quote}
Reminder to please stay on topic... by ksaar at Apr 21, 2009 4:29 PM
Hello Everyone!

Just a gentle reminder to please stay on topic in each Discussion thread. If you would like to go off topic, you are most welcome to start a thread in General Talk, or even Private Message users. Members would really like everyone to stay on topic as much as possible, so please let's all respect the policy and enjoy the Discussions. Thank you so much for being a part of our PC World Community! This is a great place to share information and make friends.
{quote}

The point is that there is a stated (by PCWorld staff) "rule" that News Discussion thread should stay on topic. As "staying on topic" can be a highly subjective thing, it is generally allowed for some slight wandering from the topic. But, we have had a number of threads that have gotten way off topic and that is usually started by Windows vs Mac vs Linux back and forths. They usually start out rather innocent, but tend to devolved into long off topic discussions on why you should choose this OS over this other OS when that has ZERO to do with the topic at hand.

I will admit that I have not yet read through the whole thread, so I am not fully up to speed yet. Having said that, I will note that it is one thing to offer up that Windows Vista users who feel they are getting screwed should look at Linux once or so in a thread, but if you continue to argue that point back and forth with some one advocating for Windows then you are potentially starting to take the thread off topic.

And please note that if you have an issue with something a Moderator has done, then the appropriate course is to send a PM to [~2004] (PCWorld staff) or another Moderator or at least create a new thread in the PCWorld Website forum...but you should not argue it in the thread itself. By default, arguing about moderation within a thread is also taking the thread off topic (a rather interesting irony in this case).

[Boomshadow]

"In my opinion since the
"normal" upgrade price of Ultimate will be $20 more than Professional
and the full retail price of Ultimate will be $20 more than
Professional, then it would have only been fair to offer a pre-order
discounted package for Ultimate for $20 more than the discounted price
of Professional which would be $119.99. Here is the pricing announcement.
"

This has merit. However, I still think the Windows team shot itself in the foot with six different versions for each bit level; that's the real root of this entire problem. I maintain that there should just be an end-user version exactly like Ultimate (simply titled "Windows 7") at a price far more commensurate with...well, other things on the market that shall henceforth remain nameless in an all-Windows thread (get used to that phrasing, PCWorld! You're going to see it a whole lot from now on). At the enterprise level, IT/IS shops can then do as they've always done and configure mass installations based on necessity and security. The only other version should be a Server version as an upgrade to Server 2008, priced and administrated as needed.

The high price of this product and profusion of boxes helps precisely no one. I'd be willing to bet that if Microsoft put out just two boxes for each bit level and slashed prices, the profits generated by the sheer volume of the much-needed (by Microsoft) exodus from previous Windows releases would make stockholders very, very happy. Perhaps my earlier MSRPs of $49 and $149 are a little low, depending on a properly plotted demand curve, but I bet not by much.

Plus, just imagine the press! "MS Prices Windows 7 To Sell"; "Microsoft Woos Upgraders"; you name it. Sure, there will also be people who question whether the new package is priced low because it's worth less, but nobody should ever base a business decision on that kind of thinking. That just gives us higher Consumer Price Indices and less value.

[ngompa13]

I am absolutely furious about this! I spent a lot of money getting a laptop with Windows Vista Ultimate on it last year, and I find out that I wasted all of it because the Ultimate Extras weren't coming, the OS was freaking slow and some of the hardware included on the system wasn't even supported by the OS until much later!

And I picked it over a laptop that was $300 cheaper with a larger screen that only had Vista Home Premium. I feel like Microsoft tried to rip my heart out for being a Windows user. Over the last year, I have been closely watching the Linux world because I believe on this cycle of OS upgrades, I'm heading for Linux because I simply cannot stand Windows Vista anymore. It is driving me up the wall.

A couple weeks ago, I finally got around to trying out the RC of Windows 7 and I was impressed. I wondered if Microsoft was punishing me for spending so much money on a laptop including Vista Ultimate by torturing me with the Windows that Vista should have been. I liked the new hybrid Start menu dock, the interface is more uniform across the board, and the special 3D effects make my inner geek cry with joy. Add to it that after installing all the software I normally use, I find that system performance is substantially better than Windows Vista. I'm actually seeing performance levels comparable to when I used Windows 2000 on a Pentium 4 in the public libraries (which was really fast, even if it was annoying having to use Win2k when Windows XP was already out).

When I saw that Microsoft was thinking about offering free upgrades to us poor schlubs that got computers with Vista, I was overjoyed. Then I saw that it had the time frame of purchases from July of this year to January of next year. I thought, "Ok, I didn't see any mention about Vista Ultimate, only the other editions, so maybe Microsoft will give it to us for free even if we bought it last year." Now the Windows 7 Pricing was announced, and I see that Windows Vista Home Premium and Professional users are rewarded with upgrades at discounted prices, but the Ultimate edition is at full upgrade price of US$220!!!

NOW I'M REALLY UPSET! I SPENT MOST OF MY HARD-EARNED AND SAVED MONEY TO BUY THAT LAPTOP WITH WINDOWS VISTA AND NOW I'M TOTALLY SCREWED! AND I'M HEADING TO COLLEGE IN THE FALL!

I can't work in these conditions for a whole school year or two, I'll die of stress dealing with crap on my laptop! And software vendors are beginning to drop XP support because XP is NINE YEARS OLD!!!! The last OS that stuck around as long as XP did was Windows 98SE, and that was quickly killed off when XP Service Pack 2 was introduced. And I have a feeling I will need Windows on my laptop too.... Although, if I have to, I will probably wind up using Linux. I don't really want to on the laptop since power management is so poor on that laptop as is, and I imagine it would be worse given that it is a Sony laptop.

Please, if anyone from Microsoft reads these comments, PLEASE take pity on us Windows Vista Ultimate users and give us a free upgrade!!!!

[OshkoshJohn]

Your "new" laptop may not have met the minimum requirements for MS Vista Ultimate. This not the fault of Vista.

I do not work for Microsoft, but I have been using PCs since the 8088.

You did not mention the specs of your laptop, so my opinion is just a guess. To run Vista at all, you need two gigabytes of RAM. A dual-core CPU is also advisable. And so forth, etc., etc.

[lutra]

Agreed, most laptops that came out last year didn't even meet the minimum requirements to run Vista, and it probably wouldn't have helped if you had bought the laptop with Home Premium. You would have wound up with the same problem, and probably the same problem with Windows 7 too, which has just as strict system requirements. I am sorry you spent money on a laptop that doesn't work to your expectations, but OshkoshJohn is right, it's the fault of the laptop manufacturer, not Microsoft. This is where Microsoft has a disadvantage using third party companies to sell computers and laptops with their operating system.

Next time I would suggest doing more homework so you won't be had. There are a lot of tech sites like this where you can go to get information about what products are worth buying and which ones are not. Hell, this lesson extends to any large purchase that you make in the future. And I know it's too late now, but next time consider taking back the product you're unhappy with and demand a refund.

In the mean while, though, I imagine you cannot afford a new laptop. There are a lot of alternatives you can choose from like dual booting your laptop with Ubuntu. I've had a lot of fun with that operating system, though it does take quite a bit of tweaking to get everything you need working. However, there are plenty of websites dedicated to helping you get your system up and running as well as some nice communities to post questions on forums and such. At least you'll have a functioning laptop when you go to college. I wish you luck ngompa13.

[ngompa13]

Thanks I guess.

For those who are wondering what specs my laptop was, here it is:

Intel Core 2 Duo 1.73GHz
2GB RAM
160GB HDD
DVD burner
media reader (4-in-1 I think)
15.4" LCD display

[Boomshadow]

Ahhh, but the official listed requirement for Vista was only 1GB of RAM and a single-core processor. Unfortunately, I have such a laptop--a Compaq Presario V6000 with an AMD Sempron 1.6GHz processor and (originally configured with 1 GB of RAM), and it couldn't even handle Vista Home Basic. It ran like a champ on XP until I bumped up to 2 GB of RAM, and then it ran even better. However, it seemed to do better still on 7. Your mileage may vary.

I maintain that Vista is a non-starter, and that anyone upgrading to Windows 7 deserves a deep discount if they had to put up with Vista.

[WinTard]

Boomshadow said:

I maintain that Vista is a non-starter, and that anyone upgrading to Windows 7 deserves a deep discount if they had to put up with Vista.

And I maintain that what could have been, what should have been, what may have been, is a moot point.

What is available today is:

Anyone can obtain Windows 7 for a very reasonable price. $50 or so... Regardless of which OS version you used prior to that...

Is all this brouhaha worth $50?

~~~~~~~~~~~
Today, don't let yesterday spoil tomorrow.
~ Jonathan Cainer

You can't have a better tomorrow if you are thinking about yesterday all the time.
~ Charles F. Kettering

I will not allow yesterday's success to lull me into today's complacency, for this is the great foundation of failure.
~ Og Mandino

Only the mediocre are always at their best.
~ Jean Giraudoux

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.
~ Robert H. Goddard