[TBolt]

The responses to this thread have been steadily streaming into my Gmail inbox for some time now. I just want to commend ke4nhw for being one of the few to post a sensible response based on a mature sort of empathy rather than a long-winded rant steaming with an egocentric sense of self-importance.

Some of you guys need to get over yourselves.

[GetReal]

This and posts to other Windows articles I read here seem to indicate a common line of thought >>> If Vista runs on your hardware then you bought everything correctly, if not then you clearly bought or have a substandard computer and thus were stupid. And this without regard to peoples finances or knowledge, just stupidity, probably because they didn't make the effort to educate themselves first....
Well thats one way to look at the situation but it certainly does not cover all circumstances, so re-think >>> develope a comprehensive understanding before assigning blame, AKA, educate yourself!



In early 2008 when I decided I need new computers, I bought two new HP midrange at about $774 each, delivered, advertised as vista ready and having Vista home premium OS. Lucky me that I was able to downgrade them to Xp because I could not get Vista to install on either, even with HP tech support. Finally sold both systems and then built one (ASUS P5NE mobo, 2Gb dual channel memory, dual core 3.2 ghz cpu, Diamond 128 Gb graphics, etc. >>> on 3rd attempt got Vista Business finally to install---lots of problems followed, or more accurate - problems followed lots of times. Finally blew that OS away and installed Win-7 RC >>> had one momentary glitch during install but since it is now running smooth with every effort I make. So, Vista HAD/HAS problems that do not relate only to user stupidity!!!!!!



Apologize to all for going off topic, but that was the trend for all recent posts so I follow....

Anyway, feel like I already paid for some MS mistakes.

[vallor]

Yes yes, any criticism of MS products, based on years of experience, is automatically "self-important", and we are admonished to "get over ourselves."

But alas, it's not just "ourselves" that have suffered through over a decade of ths crap...nor do we hold our own experience or value-of-time at the low value that the complaining gentleman apparently holds his.

And if you don't see the slant that the article was written with -- that folks should naturally use MS, no matter what -- then I suggest a broadening of experience, so that you do recognize a snow-job when you see one. (This snow-job was much smaller that some others, to be sure...but it is still there, and I hope the author responds to the charge.)

But as for people whining about their gmail inbox: For a good time, dial 1-800-wahh .

Meanwhile, the rest of us are standing up and saying our piece, because half the problem -- in fact, maybe much more than half -- are people who settle for the spoon-fed journalism, and don't question the assumptions of such articles.

Insert here, my much more general rant regarding the sad state of the 4th Estate in the U.S... but I'll go put that on my own blog, as it starts to drift from the topic of this article & its issues.

Peace!

[TechieXP]

I didn't say you made it up...i asked whay system did you have?

A laptop or desktop above $1500 would be consider highend fromany brand...oops well excpet one..Apple. However when Vista was released...laptops that cames with Ultimate still exceeded $2000 unless yiu request Vista Ultimate buying direct. Sure I know now you can find Vista Ultimate laptops for around $1500. But again there are few...I have yet to see one on a retail floor. I didn't say there were none...

I've not seen one at Best Buy or Circuit City or similar outfit. However Fry's and Microcenter had a couple each...however these laptops were very expensive...above $1799

I questioned what you said based on the fact you said u were running Ultimate and having problems. The only ppl I knew that had Ultimate issues is if they ran it on crappy hardware. That is why I asked what hardware were u unning it on. So if ur using highend hardware...the only thing left if to guess what ur doing that is giving u problems.

Also theer was a commenter who stated he was an IT Pro w/MCSE and A+ Certs yet he was having problems. I am not saying that should matter, but he would know better as to how to fix them...however...to me it is also proof that a piece of paper means nothing in the real world. i too work in IT and I am not certified at all...and I am able to fix problems that newbies with certs can't fix even simple problems.

Example...we had an issue with Lotus Notes where mail was being kicked back. After 3 hours of trying a certfied MCSE tech didn't find the problem. I found teh problem in 15 mins. The drive was full and thus Window couldn't add mail to teh box bec it couldn't increase the mailbox size.

Sopme problems have nothing to do with how book smart you are...when it comes to Windows or any software most issues are common sense..and for the problems that aren't call MSFT, your pc brand or whatever it takes. Software isn't perfect bec tehperson who made it isn't either. I think some ppl have to high of expectations.

[gudgolf]

I have heard many instances of your experience, I did not really understand if your bought the HP as "vista ready" and Home premium was installed, what wouldn't install? "I bought two new HP midrange at about $774 each, delivered, advertised as vista ready and having Vista home premium OS." I know there are many peculiaraties, eg. I installed the first Vista OS on an older ASUS mb with a P4, 3ghz processor, running an older ATI 9500. Installed like a champ. Still was running until May. The second install, a month later, was on a near identical PC , went well. Then I upgraded the graphics card to and ATI 1600. Crashed an burned. Tried 3 different accelerators and they simply would not run vista, between ASUS and lots of other help we decided there had to be a conflict between the MB and the Graphics card. It never worked. Installed it on a MSI board and it worked like a champ. I have 2 off the shelf HP laptops, an older DV1000 and a much newer Dual Core, both came with XP. I added a gig of memory to the DV1000 and installed Vista, Worked like a cham, the same with the dual core. I wish everything had an explanation or a solution. Thats not always the case when we deal with PC's. Vista did create some very unfortunate situations. Especially with drivers. But, we should expect some of this.

[TBolt]

That's a good idea, Vallor / blogger / journalist (cough) -- take it to your own blog.

[TechieXP]

Now that is one problem I can agree with. However that isn't a Vista issue..that is simply a MSFT issue since Windows 95. Microsoft Fax simply works poorly especially on system that have integrated fax modems or WinModems.

But it is a proble can can be fixed.

Here is what I found. When Windows discovers you have a modems, it uses a generic initialization string to fax functions. Those strings will work with any modems...per se. However they fail in my experience bec teh service that controls the modems initialization always hangs. If you send a fx it will send, but the receive will fail. Also some applications when they try to use Windows builtin fax...fails as well.

For the fax to work properly especially with integrated modems...you need o install the actually software for the modem so that Windows has the proper initilization strings. WinModems ane those modems that use Conexant chips don't do well when companys simply buy the chips and mount them to their boards.

Here is a test I perform...pls try. Open the Device manager and go to the properties of the modem and go to the Diagnostic tab andd query them modem. Then send a fax and immediate afterwards query...see how many times u need to query befoe the error that the port is bing used disappears. I have found that Windows will keep teh port open long after the modems has disconnected from the call. That is a commom problem and happens ore often with bad drivers and initialization strings.

[ngompa13]

My laptop did come with Vista Ultimate. It was a Sony VAIO VGN-FZ220U.

[gudgolf]

Sooner or later posts kind run together, I am not the one that had an issue with Vista, any version, I run 4 copies, 1 ultimate and 3 home premium. I love Vista, I hate its failure. I want the latest and greatest within reason of everything. I don't like scrapping $670 worth of Vista to run Windows 7. I do so just because its there. I have pre-ordered it already. I am running Windows 7RC on 2 as we speak, I beta test for 4 products, including windows starting with XP. I have looked at these things in the eye since their was no such thing as a hard drive. I love this crap. Now that I am retired (12 years), I have only 4 pc's, all mine. You makes some good points but sometimes you make assumptions that winds me up but I appreciate your posts.

[vallor]

Glad to see that "tbolt" received the tweak on the nose that he must assuredly deserved. :)

...especially when we regard who has been contributing to the discussion...and who is simply whining and sniping.

Behold, O MS shills: Take notice of these techniques used by the great and wonderful "tbolt" -- whine about email arriving in your gmail, and whine about people seeming (to him) "self-important" -- but above all, don't rock the boat(!).

You have your marching orders: whine, complain, distract -- anything to deflect criticism of MS and its products. Anything but to question the assumptions that they "have to be in charge" because -- well, heck, it's Microsoft! They always do exactly what is right for the consumer!

...uh, right?

The Emperor certainly does have clothes! If you can't see them...why there's something wrong with you, and it is up to the shills to argue against the possibility that this software is crap!

Blame the user! That'll show 'em!



(Bah!)

[rgreen4]

In early 2008 you bought two HP machines and could not get Vista to install? In 2008, Vista would have been pre-installed before they left the factory.

You came close on the second machine when you apparently built it from scratch, until you got to the graphics card. Since it was a Diamond brand, it was most likely ATI, but you did not say which chip. I replaced an Nvidia 7300LE card that came in my HP Media Center. This machine was shipped with XP MCE in late October, 2006 and qualified for the free Vista upgrade that was installed in May, 2008. It has always run fine, I did replace the "weak" graphics card this year as it only had 128MB of memory and was a 7000 series card. The replacement was an 8600GS with 256MB of memory. But it ran fine for two years, but did not have the DVI output I needed for the new monitor.

There is another member with an Asus board, an older ATI based board, and the said Vista was not support by the BIOS on the board. The P5NE has had 5 BIOS upgrades released in the last year, and half mentions CPU stability. The C2D that runs at 3.2GHz is the E8500 or better, and requires BIOS 1105 or better (release only a year ago). (E8500 is 3.16 GHz and the E8600 is 3.33) no higher CPU is supported. Source - Asus P5NE qualified CPU vendor list.

[TechieXP]

Says the facts.

Fact if you introduce any hardware or software that does not natively work in a certain environment it means you will spend money iether on the software to make it work, or pay someone to make it work. When you could have simply bought what works in the first place. Yes OSX can be made to work in a SFT based Enterprise. But it will cost you more money...not only does the hardware cost more...you then have to develop or buy other software to make it work. You mention LAMP to make other OS's like Linux or even OSX work with SQL. Ok if you yourself can't use it that means u have to pay someone who can impliement if for you. Companies don't have the time, man-power or money to easte on experieenting. That stuff is for your house. They need what they can pull out teh bix and use right away with people they are already paying.

It has been proven in many companys..that even tho Linux is free...the initial cost to implement Linux to be exactly like there Windows environment would be more costly than just sticking with Windows. Also a IT Tech that is very version in MSFT Windows and highednd usage of Linux also comes in at a higher price. And average MCSE Certified tech can walk in making $60k at least...find one that is also a Linux Guru...that a $100k employee...however how many people can a company afford thayt make 100k...beyond the executives? For 1 single Linux guru you can employee 1.5 MCSE certified techs...

For thr cost of Apple hardware, you can implement several systems for the same price. You have to think of the whole situation when making changes. If Linux being free was the way to go and it didn't require so many loops to get things to work...don't u think most companys would choose this option over Windows. The cost if not lower. maybe for a small company. For a Fortune 500 who has built their company solely on the MSFT platform...it simply doesn't work. Can can say what you want..the fact many companys are choosing Windows proves it.

Example...the company I work for we do the cabling and inside wiring for these same companies. Domino chose MSDT bec every other option including implement Linux was simply to costly....which included teh need for unique software developement where MSFT leads...period. Linux is only about 10 years old...they simply don't have thr experience MSFT has...and Apple has never been consider a business software...

Of MSFT provided the sae quality on a consumer level as it does in business they would be the best option period.

[TBolt]

Vallor,

Your viewpoint is so skewed -- that's why it would be nice if you would go complain about your perceived agendas on your own blog. Go make something up about 9/11 while you're at it. lol.

Whining about my Gmail inbox? Is that how you perceived my post? Wrong.

I agreed with another post that reminded others to see reality from a bigger POV beyond their own and then laid a hook into the water to see if I could catch anything. Then, you come swimming along -- a big, fat catfish. At least TechXP was smart enough to not get hooked into a cheap flame war.

Swim along little fishy. I'm sure there are 5 readers waiting to see what drivel you dump into your own pond...errr...blog. :)

[gudgolf]

I am aware of this but have not experience it. The modems I have in my desktops are both same, oldddd Creative Modem Buster's housed in a pci slot. I can't begin to tell you how old they are but old enough to experience XP. I tried your test and my modem connected immediately after the modem was queried. Tried the same on the HP laptop with integrated modem and it also broke dial tone immediately. So, just another reason we enjoy this. I really have enjoyed the MS fax and scan enhancement since Xp. I use it regularly.

[vallor]

[~179412] :


Sir, your post is so chock full of misstatements and (dare I say it?) FUD, I have no idea how to begin. But since it is so bass-ackwards, I will start at the end.


You wrote: "Linux is only about 10 years old...they simply don't have thr experience MSFT has..."
Sir, the Manchester Computing Center distribution of Linux consisted of two 3.5 inch 1.4 Megabyte floppies -- a "root" floppy, and a "boot" floppy. I could argue that this was the first "real" distribution of Linux...in 1992. (Not to mention that the API, as well as plenty of the original concepts in Linux are from Unix itself...which is maybe another 25 years or so of development. Unix is old.)

Secondly, when we started our business in 1994, we evaluate every OS we could think of (commercial and otherwise), and settled on Linux because of our experiences at the local community college, supporting their network (with Win 3.11 & Netware 3.3 everywhere). What we discovered is that Linux had been ahead of the curve for every feature that we wanted, including that year's SVR4 release, which was "Unixware" from Novell. MS wouldn't have even been a contender w/out Netware to back up its networking at the time...but there were things we needed our systems to do, which could not be done on MS systems w/out huge amounts of work (if ever).


For an instance, Sir: back in those days, IP-based web sites were the way to go -- and to add an IP address to a MS machine, you needed to reboot. This provisioning model was anathema to our environment, where -- WITH LINUX, not MS -- we were able to add & remove IP aliases at will. The power of doing it this way (as well as scripting in general) was non-obvious to Microsoft, until they realized they were losing market share to a better provisioning model, one in which it was much easier to automate these tasks. (and didn't have to reboot the web servers every time we added an IP address! ugh!)


(It was even cheaper that going with Sun boxes...and we were considered hooligans by some sysadmins for not "doing the right thing" and running Sun servers. Knock on wood: their business models had trouble competing with us, since we didn't have to buy such hardware -- at a premiuml.)



And so on, and so forth, through the years. So when you say "It has been proven in many companys..that even tho Linux is free...the initial cost to implement Linux to be exactly like there Windows environment would be more costly than just sticking with Windows", I have to wonder: can you name any companies for which this has been the case? I'm not saying they aren't out there, but your hand-waving would seem, in my experience, to not have a preponderance of evidence to back up. As the old Usenet saw goes, when folks start waving around claims like that: Okay, so name three? I'll bet you can't.


Same with the idea that a "Linux Guru" ( :) ) would necessarily cost more than a "Microsoft Guru". Really? You through numbers around, but I don't see why one should cost any more than another...and again, your conclusion that using Linux would have a more expensive TCO doesn't seem to be echoed by anyone who has put together large-scale, multi-server operations.


And if you're talking that bottom line, you need to get serious: don't you think companies like Google would use MS OS's, if it meant a lower TCO? Of course they would.


Where does that leave us? SQL. Oracle just bought mysql, the "M" in LAMP. Why do you suppose a huge competitor to MS in the relational database market would do such a thing?


So your attempt at (F)ear, (U)ncertainty,and (D)oubt is commendable from a protect-MS-at-all-costs-from-criticism point of view...but would appear to be quite reality-challenged.


Furthermore (from the $$ perspective again), it does the reader an injustice to maintain such a position, considering the shrinking economy that we are faced with. This means leveraging older hardware past its expected lifetime...because friend, a lot of companies don't have the payola to buy the latest whiz-bang machine, just so they have the "priviledge" of running Windows Vista 7 on the thing. I'm not sure if this is the reason for LAMP's appeal in that space, but unlike what you say, LAMP is continuing to make inroads on the server market...cutting into your beloved MS's market share.


And now I'm going to throw the money on the floor for a second and just ask you: give the history of MS since (say) 1992 really one of "playing fair" in the market? And indeed, don't you think it's funny that they continue to leverage their monopoly position (as it has been adjudicated), even when their huge marketing blitz (of all those 17 years I mentioned) is starting to show flaws in its armor?


Because that's exactly what we are doing, right here & right now: cutting the CRAP and telling it like it is, going around the media controls with which MS has for so long strangled that market space..."Main Stream Media" is crumbling, and citizen journalism is bursting forth as the media of choice by a populace who are thoroughly pissed-off at those bozos.


Do you see?


-vallor
Message was edited by: vallor

Changed a "that" to "with which".

[GetReal]

Thanks rgreen4 for the reminder+tip. When I installed Vista to the P5NE last year I went through a Bios upgrade, then apparantly it slipped my mind as I never contemplated this process when preparing to install Win-7. Probably should get the latest now before I forget again. Anyway, that Bios update might have been more useful when installing Vista than Win-7, and the Vista effort begin near one year ago so don't know if or what Bios versions might have been released since. One problem with the P5NE was graphics, I had an ATI installed initially ( I think the model or bios was 7.4???) and Vista kept trying to install 64-bit default drivers for what was a 32-bit system, so, bought the Diamond 98(?) Stealth & install completed. Yes Diamond is made by ATI but think the card drivers are different.


The two HP's did arrive with Vista on the HD, also I ordered at the same time the Vista with real backup DVD's. Anyway, I had to install the OS when the computers arrived, though I did not do anything except plug-in & turn on, the process then started without me. Because of the problems, HP gave me a "free" downgrade, though I would have been better off just returning the units for refund (didn't think of that at the time either & HP sure did not offer).

[WinTard]

@ TBolt:

When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.
~ Wayne Dyer, American motivational Speaker and Author of self-help best selling books. b.1940

[Evildave]

Quote

Numbers do not lie...

But they can be 'creatively misinterpreted' to mean anything you like.

Lick poop! A trillion flies can't be wrong!

[WinTard]

Touche, and vice-versa. I'm not the one constantly quoting market share and other crap like that. I simply use what I believe is the best for my needs:
Windows, Linux, and the rest in that order.

But the difference between 49% vs 51% can be viewed with less credibility in contrast to 1% to 89%...

And I repeat that Windows can do absolutely ANYTHING that any other OS can, except perhaps for real-time. That even Unix (and any derivative) can't touch either. Because the kernel is sooo bloated!

For that you need:
QNX
RTLinux
VxWorks
Windows CE

QNX is posix compliant too. Fully orthogonal (you can run anything anywhere through RPC, the Network is the Computer, for real, not just some marketing based terminology as per Sun Microsystems).

Please allow me to reiterate, QNX is my favorite OS.

>Evildave wrote:
>But they can be 'creatively misinterpreted' to mean anything you like.
>
>Lick poop! A trillion flies can't be wrong!

PS: Are you saying all Linux users are also licking poo?

~~~~~~~~~~
"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best--" and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
~ A.A. Milne, from The House at Pooh Corner

I was going to change my shirt, but I changed my mind instead.
~ Winnie the Pooh

[Evildave]

Nope. Just saying that if a 'majority' thinks something is 'better', it does not necessarily make it so.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

1% = 10,000,000 users. Even for TV 10,000,000 users is a hit.

So Microsoft has a majority? There are more flies than people, too. They must be better than people?