[GetReal]

@ rgreen4:
A bit more historical correction (and expansion). Your post covered the sanitized version of history, largely correct-not always, and skips relivant datum >>> in MS favor.




Some additional facts I have obtained by digging through my library over the past hours:

1) The successor to the copyright IBMBIO was produced by "Phoenix" allegedly by installing a programmer in controlled isolation-under independent observation to forestall allegations of copyright infringement-to write a Bios compatible for the IBM PC clone market = success = this broke IBM's monopoly on the PC market.

2) I did not mean to imply the IBM & Compaq had set copyright standards, though as you say, IBM did on parts of the software. What I meant was that they had set standards in the mind of the public. IBM was extremely well know in the computer field when they introduced the PC, to many they were the only one known though there were actually others, like "Digital Equipment Corp." as I was working on their systems. Compaq became second in the public mind when through licensing, they became the first maker of non-IBM computer "clones." The public initially had this knowledge and used it in buying decisions, hence, defacto standard. (your call of the IBM ISA connector standard was introduced by IBM. The other major maker of computers prior and to & soon after the PC, that used a bus configuration, Cromemco, used a different pin arrangement).

3) MSDOS had been acquired from "Seattle Computer Company" and is documented to be a clone of CP/M and in fact, at least through version 2, still had exact lines of code written by Kildell (the author). Microsoft had to refund $800,000 to IBM as settlement, when IBM later discovered this situation and realized they were open to copyright lawsuits.

4) The IBM-PC: while not assured, was as close to that status as could be imagined, with its IBM name attached. A few years prior to the PC, "Popular Electronics" had written an article about the "Altair" 8080 computer kit. This kit had been sold out as fast as it could be manufactured and was in the mind of every tech person I talked to around that time. This is where Gates got his start by selling his copy of Basic. Subsequently, RadioShack, Atari and dozens of others had built computers for the public. Interest was intense. (CP/M was not limited to the Z-80 processor. Initially it was designed for the 8080 and later was introduced & sold by IBM for the PC, running well on computers up through the 80386 processor and even on some better-designed or compatible 80486 systems and with optional cards, on the Apple 2c and Apple 2-GS).

5) Parts of the DOJ case against Microsoft was settled, other parts (including monopoly) were dropped when Clinton appointed a new head of the department. The DOJ case of monopoly was adjucated by Judge Sporkin and implement through the "Tunney" act to standardize prosecution under the "Clayton Act-Anticompetitive," the "Robinson-Patman Act-Price Discrimination" and the 1914 "FTC Act-Unfair Methods of Competition" of existing law. These last three acts were originally enacted to combat Standard Oil's monopoly.





Keep part 5 in mind for the following:





6) Microsoft's OEM Business Manual, introduced in court, had a statement for manager and sales people: "Your mission is to get Microsoft system software on every personal computer." In DOS days, "Vobis Corp." was the major manufacturer of computers in Europe. Vobis was selling 100% of their computer with DRDos. Microsoft offered Vobis MSDos at $9 per copy under the "Per Processor" license, where Vobis would have to pay regardless of what software was provided. At the time Vobis was getting DRDos for $13 per copy. Vobis wanted initially only to buy Windows-3. Microsoft responded that they had to include MSDos or pay a fee of $35 for Windows. If Vobis went exclusively with MSDos then Windows-3.1 would be included "at NO cost." Similar offerings were made to the manufacturers in Australia, etc.

7) Companies that were similarly "nuked" by Microsoft and was part of the DOJ case included Lotis, Boreland International and Netware.

I could go on with a much longer post but I think this one makes the point. Apology's to all for going of topic so far. My main point in the previous post was that with less "agressive" marketing by Microsoft, users today would likely have many more options for OS & general software than the current "big-3" of Windows, OSX and Linux >>> which probably would be a good thing and might have resolved the current wide dissatisfaction with many Windows users.

Others that posted in response to mine provided interesting reading and made good points but also had some factual unknowns. Thanks Y'all.

[WinTard]

GetReal said:

... which probably would be a good thing and might have resolved the current wide dissatisfaction with many Windows users.

Except that statement isn't factual at all. It is your perception only. I have been and am totally satisfied with Microsoft products. As apparently is another 89% of the market out there...

The dissatisfaction comes from malcontents making noise... Alas this is a fact of life. Life is full of complainers.

Those quotes are NOT directed at you GetReal, but toward us all.

~~~~~~~~~~
Ten persons who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent.
~ Napoleon Bonaparte, 1769-1821, French General and Politician

The best job goes to the person who can get it done without passing the buck or coming back with excuses.
~ Napoleon Hill, 1883-1970, American Speaker/Motivational Writer/Author of "Think and Grow Rich"

Put all excuses aside and remember this: YOU are capable.
~ Zig Ziglar

He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.
~ Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American Scientist/Publisher/Diplomat

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin:
He that is good for complaining is seldom good for anything else ...
~ WinTard

An idealist believes the short run doesn't count. A cynic believes the long run doesn't matter. A realist believes that what is done or left undone in the short run determines the long run.
~ Sydney J. Harris

What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
~ Oscar Wilde, 1854-1900, Irish Dramatist/Novelist/Poet

The only deadly sin I know is cynicism.
~ Henry L. Stimson

A cynic can chill and dishearten with a single word.
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson (American Poet, Lecturer and Essayist, 1803-1882)

A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future.
~ Sydney J. Harris

There is nothing so pitiful as a young cynic because he/she has gone from knowing nothing to believing nothing.
~ Maya Angelou, American Poet and Author (1928 - now)

The cynic, a parasite of civilization, lives by denying it, for the very reason that he is convinced that it will not fail.
~ Jose Ortega y Gasset (Spanish philosopher and humanist, 1883-1955)

A parasite cannot live alone.
{African (Ovambo) Proverb}

Misery loves company.
~ John Ray (English naturalist and botanist, 1627-1705)

Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it.
~ Russell Baker (American Journalist and Columnist, b.1925)

Is not disease the rule of existence? There is not a lily pad floating on the river but has been riddled by insects. Almost every shrub and tree has its gall, oftentimes esteemed its chief ornament and hardly to be distinguished from the fruit. If misery loves company, misery has company enough. Now, at midsummer, find me a perfect leaf or fruit.
~ Henry David Thoreau (American Essayist, Poet and Philosopher, 1817-1862)

A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
~ Albert Einstein

[rgreen4]

Couple of points - Phoenix develeoped an alternative to the True Blue BIOS, not a successor. There was a previous problem with trying to reverse engineer one since it would still be developed from the True Blue one. That is why the Phoenix people did what they did. That made the "clones" legal and opened the world to MS-DOS based computers.

Some consider Compaq a clone, but many do not. First, they used the identical IBMIO.SYS and IBMDOS.SYS files on their floppies (I still have a few), and the BASICA that was shipped with the Compaq was 99% compatible with the IBM edition. On a real IBM PC, if you booted it without a disc in the drive, it would boot to BASIC which was not only an programming language but a rudimentary OS. The first part of BASCA on the IBM was on the motherboard in a chip. If that chip went bad, you could not use BASIC or BASICA on the machine. We had one. Rather than pay $800 (in 1983) for a new MB (out of warranty), we simply loaded the Compaq version of BASICA and went on.

Second - While the first case against Microsoft was settled in 1994 under the Clinton Administration, the second was tried by the DOJ under Clinton in 1998. However, neither has any real impact on today's marketing, nor had anything to do with who may or may not have been President. For those willing to spend their time reading though this history, here is the Wikipedia link. Please note neither case has anything to do with the basic OS, just the extensions and applets that are part of it.

[GetReal]

@ Wintard:
Ah, one person speeks out. Well, I am a person also, in the same numerical catagory as you, i.e., single digit, and I am dissatisfied. From reading posts here there are a significant number of people the same. Not that this keeps me or others from using MS software >>> its all about user available choices.




malcontents making noise...







Appreciate your reservation toward me, but, it must be a mental gymnastic to be able to stuff unpleasant thoughts into such a conceptial wastebasket then continue blithly on your way, ignoring parts of reality. Wintard I have read many of your previous posts and most were to the point, but this one can only be described as FUD, a manipulation of English and with a clear object of stiring already muddy water. For shame - don't do that!







@rgreen4: my most recent post was taken from books & magazines printed at the time or soon after these events occured. I don't know where Wikipedia got some of its info but it does not consistantly agree with mine, so I will continue to believe what I have & comment on them as being the most correct (part of the reason for this attitude is that I lived during these times and the parts I remember agree with the books).



Anyway, what I mistakely thought would have been clear to readers >>> my posts were about user choice, the info about MS was background intended to explain my ideas of how we got to this mess and NOT an explicit attack against Microsoft, Bill Gates or probably even Windows. Nor did I intend anything inappropriate about then President Clinton, simply that when he went into office that as all presidents do, he appointed a new head of the DOJ and that appointee decided, for whatever reason, not to persue all aspects of the case against Microsoft.

[Boomshadow]

Even more points here:

1) Neither MS nor GeoWorks crafted the first Graphical User Interface; that came from Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) way back in 1975. Apple licensed it for research, which led to their LISA (1982) and the very first Macintosh, in 1984. Microsoft licensed Apple's interpretation of Macintosh's GUI as the basis for what became Windows, which debuted in 1985, though the first recognizable version, Windows 3.0, which drew the Apple "look and feel" lawsuit (thrown out because of the license memorandum signed by Steve Jobs himself!) and debuted in 1990.

2) Microsoft products are not open. They are broadly compatible. For products to be open, the developers must share source code with the public under a public license. Microsoft has famously resisted that based on their business model.

3) While this is strictly opinion, I would not characterize the criticism of Windows Vista as coming from "a few malcontents" (unless we're describing several million people as "a few"). The Windows team took a direction with the APIs and the interface that a whole lot of people didn't like. In my opinion, while the kernel was fine--and indeed is only slightly changed for Windows 7, according to most analysts, the change-for-the-sake-of-change approach to the interface and the fat APIs have inspired frustration among a much more significant portion of end users than previous upgrades. To those who pooh-pooh any criticism, I say this: just because you had no problems does not mean there were no problems.

4) You get out of ANY operating environment what you put into it. Windows 7 seems to install easily to a broad range of systems and handles a lot of peripherals; the only trouble I've had with it is getting my HP LaserJet 1012 printer to work with it, same as with Vista. With...operating systems outside the scope of a Windows discussion (grin)...I have had the same ease of installation for my apps and peripherals--except that my printer also works with no real effort! Again, I recognize that just because I haven't had trouble doesn't mean there is no trouble, but I've had a remarkably easy time with my hardware and apps across three totally different operating systems.

None of them was Vista.

[rgreen4]

The Laserjet 1012 is an older Host Based laser printer (it does not use the HP PCL language) which means all the print generation occurs in the host computer. It was one of the last to get Vista drivers (Sept, 2008 for the 1010, 1012 and 1015). The advantage of purchasing a PCL based printer, is that you can use printer drivers for other PCL printers or even HP's Universal Printer Driver which was available on the release of Vista (UPD dated Dec. 6, 2006 for Vista). This driver would run any PCL based Laserjet from the 1984 Laserjet II to the latest Color Laserjet.

All of the low 1xxx numbered Laserjets are Host Based, but some of the newer 15xx series use PCL5e. The advantage of PCL, is that you can install a printer as an older Laserprinter for legacy software that will not support the newer printer. Also when the Laserjet 4 dies, and IT comes walking in with a P2015, it just plugs up and runs (did have to change out the parallel printer cable for a USB cable, but didn't have to go through any install of drivers, the W2K based desktop just printed to it as if it were a Laserjet 4 (just a little faster). Didn't have all the feedback on paper supply and toner status, but it printed just great.

[Boomshadow]

Well, for whatever reason, here's what actually happens when I try to install the 1012 into a Vista or Windows 7 PC:

1) If I use the driver disc included or the installer downloaded from the site, Vista and 7 both recognize that it's an honest-to-gosh HP LaserJet 1012, but inevitably group it in "Other Devices" instead of "Printers," and have no earthly idea what to do with it.

2) If I just plug it in...well,cut and paste from above.

I mean, I realize that HP is just a company started up in a garage in southern California, but still... ;)

[rgreen4]

Are you installing your drivers before plugging in the printer?

If you are and are still having problems, please open a discussion in the printer area and let some of our members who do not frequent this area assist.

[Boomshadow]

I did install the drivers first (though as I pointed out above, I tried it both ways, uninstalling the drivers and then plugging the printer in first after installing the drivers first failed. I'll write the question up for the help areas as well, though I was just pointing my particular issue out as an example of the fact that Vista and Windows 7 are by no means perfect with legacy hardware that XP handles perfectly. All of this is by way of saying that upgrades are supposed to be improvements. ;)

[WinTard]

Funny, I've NEVER had problems with Windows 7 yet. Whereas XP did. In the case of a ultra-portable Asus W5F for a friend going for two weeks to Tahiti. She asked me to fix her laptop, as it wouldn't connect to Wi-Fi... The switch controlling the wireless didn't work... So I attempt to reinstall (fix) XP-SP3 onto that laptop. It hangs during the hardware discovery phase, probably on the wi-fi controller. Anyways, since I couldn't fix it, I attempted Windows 7 and 18 minutes later, problem fixed. All installed. All data intact. XP was renamed old.windows folder. Everything else is there...

I probably could have done a pristine install of XP but would have to backup her data first.

Now she says the laptop is TWICE as fast as XP. On the same hardware! (Those are subjective statements, obviously). However, I didn't have to go look for a single driver for this Asus W5F, with built-in camera, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and all the bells and whistles. I didn't even have the recovery and driver cd's for XP. But Windows 7 did the job. In eighteen minutes!

And I am progressively loading Windows 7 onto all my friend's systems, with ZERO issues! Oh I'm using build 7264, both x86 and x64 depending on the hardware.

You must be cursed. ;)

[rgreen4]

In all fairness to Boomshadow, he is not having a problem with Win7 RC on the machine. He is having a problem getting the HP drivers for his printer (Laserjet 1012) to install under Win7 RC. Unfortunately for Boomshadow, this is not a PCL printer where the print layout is done in the printer, but a host based printer where the layout is done on the host computer.

[TechieXP]

I looked up the printer. I haven't been following teh thread closely, so please excuse if I repeated something that has been said.

I saw there were Vista drivers. Since the packag is extractable...just try installing it manually. While in Windows open the device manager and then plug the device in and see if it appears. Should show as an unknown device. Go to the properties of the unknown device and then to the Driver Tab on the device's property box. Choose the button for update driver and then browse to the folder of the extract files. Just pick the root folder of the extracted file and Windows 7 like Vista will search every folder until it finds what it needs. If the drivers are found it should install. However just remember installing this way, you are only installing the printer drivers...not any associated HP software that is usually on the disk.

Looking at the printer...it appears to be USB? USB printers are always suggested to be installed first and then plug in the printer after a reboot. If you did it this way, and you come to the desktop and the found new hardware wizard pops up....use it to browse to the extracted files.

The problem I found to when trying to remove the drivers, you need to clean the registry of the keys that you don't need. CCleaner is free you can set it to clean the registry only. That will remove any unneed file associations. Then try installing the driver using the standard setup process.

If you got the printer to work in Vista, should work the same. OS weird its giving you headaches. It should work equally the same.

And one last thing you can try. I think I read somewhere you saying the installer would freeze? If not you can still do this anyways. Before you run the installer, right click on it and go to properties and choose campatibility and choose Windows Vista. JUst in case the installer is locked to using a 6.0 version of the kernel vs 6.1.

I will hope and guess one of those 3 things creates success for you.

[TechieXP]

Also here is a last resort move.
This is a trick that was suggest by MSFT when people tried to install Window 2000 drivers for hardware to use in Windows XP.
The installer was designed to look for the Windows version name. So you have trick the installer.

It requires making a small change in the registry. It won't break anything
Browse to the following location:

You lauch the registry using the regedit command...Start>Run...type 'regedit' (no quotes) and hit Enter.
Browse to this location in the registry:

HKEYLOCALMACHINE/SOFTWARE/MIcrosoft/Windows NT/CurrentVersion

On the line that sames Product Name it says Windows 7 Ultimate
Edit the key so it says Windows Vista ™ Ultimate



The screenshot shows how the line looks in Vista.
If you go this route, don't forget to change the registry key back.

[Boomshadow]

The installer doesn't freeze; it acts as though it has done its job. As to the other ideas, I'll give them a try. As I stated before, since this is a USB printer, I did try installing the software first. Only when that failed did I try uninstalling and then plugging the printer in first.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[WinTard]

Thanks for that tip, I didn't know that...

I must state I ran into the first problem with Windows 7 last weekend, when another friend had a Dell Inspiron i700m. For some reasons, Windows 7 didn't detect the Intel graphics chip driver in that model and limited the display to 1024x768, when it should have been 1280. Well researching the issue on the Internet, this discontinued graphics chipset from Intel doesn't have a Vista driver associated with it available from Dell. But Intel provides it... Alas, the Intel installer won't work on Windows 7, so I shall use your technique to overcome this obstacle. This is for the record, the first instance of something Windows 7 coudn't handle (for me)... I won't see that friend until next weekend, so we'll see then...

Cheers!

[TechieXP]

Hope it works for you.

Installers are tricky and I hate using them to install drivers.
When it comes to drivers here is something you need to remember...every MFR makes a driver for their hardware. However other outfites also buy the chips and make there own hardware too. Back in tho old days for example, ATI's software installer would fail to work if it found a card even having the sae chips being made by another MFR. This has changed. ATI's installer will run...the drivers in the package are identical bec it is the same chipsets. However the other software could be MFR specific. However that is not true of ATI Cataylyst softwae which is the same no matter who makes the card. However each compnay may have other distinct feautures on there card that may be left out unless you use thier software.

MSFT driver work better bec they simply write the basic driver to support teh device...not the extras. Video cards and older soundcards tend to cause ore probles then any device other than printers. Again it i bec these device always have unique features beyond the original basic function. That is wny ALl-In-One pronters are a hassle. Bec it is a printer combined with a fax and scanner. Scanners use to use Twain drivers...not anymore they work differently now. The fax doesn't even use a driver it si simply taken care of by the electronics in the printer...but you must install that bloated software. if you don't you only use of the fax or scanner if by manually using the buttons. That's fun...right?

The Windows installer is desugned to be OS specific to prevent you from installing the wrong software.
Windows NT especially unlike 9x has way more builds and could cause more confusion. Even tho 5.0 and 5.1 are technically the same OS...some programs and hardware were specifically designed to function based on the OS build. However if you can extract the package to get to the drivers Vista in many cases can also use XP drivers...not for soundcards and video cards. But I have using XP drivers in Vista for these devices: cell phones, network cards and modems. Windows 2000/XP uses WDM. The drivers are written exactly the same. Windows Vista and Windows 7 both use WDDM 1.0 which is just an update to what XP used. I am not saying they all should work...just saying soe can. All you hav to do is extract the driver and let Vista or 7 eread the inf's and see...if it can use them it will install.

The regitry trick is simply a last resort. It can be used in cases where extracting the installer package is not an option. Since teh installer looks at the OS version, you simply have to fool it into think it is in the correct OS. Soe installers in Windows 2000 and XP were even more technical. Soe actually were designed to look at the full build number. Like for example..some software require SP2 to be install for XP. All version of AP whether Home, Pro or even media center we all based on the original Windows XP 5.1.2600...however each build had another set of numbers..and each Service Pack changed the number behind the build. Its in the same location in the registry info I gave before

Its says BuildLab which is the ull build name...in some cases I have forced siftwares that required you to be at a certain SP level by changing that line to match a version of Windows that had a higher SP level. Other tricks I have done?

IIS in Windows XP is identical to what is in Windows Server. However using the registry MSFT set teh http and ftp to host one site in the client, while the server has unlimited. I simply copied a few keys over and gained the same benefits.

Reember the Server product is built fro the client to insure 100% compatibility.

MSFT also has a tool that combines all version of WIndows that are in the same family to a single CD.

[MacwillcrushMicrosoft]

I have owned computers since 1986 (DOS). In the past 23 years I have owned more than 50 windows machines. Last year I bought my first Mac. All my windows machines in my office are now on Death Row.
Goodbye forever Mr. Gates

[nonseq]

MacwillcrushMicrosoft, on 29 October 2009 - 10:35 PM, said:

I have owned computers since 1986 (DOS). In the past 23 years I have owned more than 50 windows machines. Last year I bought my first Mac. All my windows machines in my office are now on Death Row.
Goodbye forever Mr. Gates

I bought my first mac in 1984, in February. Folks here would say that I am an Apple fanboi. I've also sold and caused to be installed several thousand networked DOS/Windows machines from Big Blue to our own private label. I love my OSX and my Macs but in reality Mac isn't gonna crush MS in this century or the next.

I strongly believe that OSX is a superior operating system because of Darwin's roots. Apple's "vision" is second to none and I believe that the fit and finish of Apple products is superior to other brands. But windows is here to stay and it looks like Win 7 is going to finally deliver what MS has been promising.

It's time for us to move beyond the flames of the Mac vs Windows wars. They profit no one. Welcome to the forum. I think there are a lot of exciting things before us in the months and years to come and we should put this silly little schoolyard taunting behind us.

[7never]

I bought dos,windows 95,98,98se,millennium,2000,professional,XP professional,windows XP media center edition,vista home and vista ultimate. Vista Ultimate upgrade at a major retailer was $244.79 for me. I tried the free version of 7 until i read it would die spring 2010. After talking many friends and fellow windows users into the newest version, I am off the hampster wheel. After being forgotten and misjudged by Microsoft I now tell all - Stick with Vista until it does not work any more for you. As for me, my Windows Vista runs just fine with explorer 8 on my 64 bit intel i7 920. Sorry, Microsoft, you had a chance to help your most loyale customers (windows ultimate users) and you really blew it! Too bad Microsoft decided to just let us dangle in the wind.

[WinTard]

nonseq, on 29 October 2009 - 06:13 PM, said:

MacwillcrushMicrosoft, on 29 October 2009 - 10:35 PM, said:

I have owned computers since 1986 (DOS). In the past 23 years I have owned more than 50 windows machines. Last year I bought my first Mac. All my windows machines in my office are now on Death Row.
Goodbye forever Mr. Gates

I bought my first mac in 1984, in February. Folks here would say that I am an Apple fanboi. I've also sold and caused to be installed several thousand networked DOS/Windows machines from Big Blue to our own private label. I love my OSX and my Macs but in reality Mac isn't gonna crush MS in this century or the next.

I strongly believe that OSX is a superior operating system because of Darwin's roots. Apple's "vision" is second to none and I believe that the fit and finish of Apple products is superior to other brands. But windows is here to stay and it looks like Win 7 is going to finally deliver what MS has been promising.

It's time for us to move beyond the flames of the Mac vs Windows wars. They profit no one. Welcome to the forum. I think there are a lot of exciting things before us in the months and years to come and we should put this silly little schoolyard taunting behind us.

Wise words my friend! I disagree with OSX being superior because of Darwin's roots. I think both OSes have merits. But I gave you a thumbs up because you deserve it.

Be well!

~~~~~~~~~~
Lost time is never found again.
~ Benjamin Franklin