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Does Google Know Too Much About You?

#21 User is offline   number6 Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 06:21 AM

michaelejahn said:

so, evil dave, tell me how you really feel....

me, hey, i am a law abiding citizen. I pay my taxes. I really don't care if Google or anyone else knows a lot about me.

I can't imagine I am all that interesting.

If you've ever filed a tax return or driven a car than the chances are good that you're a criminal.
If these issues don't matter to you the government will love you because they do care.
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#22 User is online   etim Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 08:42 AM

I always get a kick out of worthless phrases containing words like "unreasonable" , "cruel and unusual", "inappropriate" etc. etc.
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#23 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 01:01 PM

Nope, individually we're not all that interesting.

But next time you buy a carton of ice cream, a couple of bags of chips, some cookies and a case of beer at the market, consider that your health insurance company would be keenly interested in those buying habits, and the information is for sale. Maybe your job pays for that? What happens when you get laid off and they set the rate of your COBRA at $900 a month? And how employable would you be thereafter when future employers see what the health insurance bill for you would be?

Certainly something to keep in mind when grandma sends you out to buy a pack of smokes.
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#24 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 01:06 PM

But don't be stampeded into a different search engine/email service/etc. just because you read one half-baked conspiracy theory about your current one.

After all, Google put out a privacy policy while AOL/Yahoo/Microsoft still wouldn't give out details about what THEY do with the information (every bit as 'sinister' and then some).

Maybe you don't like EVERYTHING Google does with statistics gathered about you, but should you switch to someone else that won't tell you anything about what they do?

I mean, if you don't like Google, you should LOATHE Amazon. Their 'recommendations just for you' are creepy to most people.
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#25 User is online   Hoku Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 01:16 PM

Google is just out to make money. I think they have worn out their "do no evil" motto to the point where it is meaningless. They are certainly not alone in regards to online privacy issues either. It is an Internet wide concern. Google's data retention policy of 18 months is about 15 months too long and completely unjustified.
Cloud computing raises more than just privacy issues. There are legal implications as well. Your personal data is subject to the laws of the country where the physical server is located. Posting a photo of your baby breastfeeding could conceivably result in breaking child obscenity laws is some countries. Remember last year, when Facebook banned photos of breastfeeding?
Unencrypted storage is simply asking for trouble. However, even encryption is no panacea. Consider the US Supreme Court ruling that Custom's officials have the right to examine encrypted data at US ports of entry.
US citizens that are unconcerned about invasion of privacy are simply abetting the US Government's continued erosion of personal liberties guaranteed under the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If you are not indignant, then you must be ignorant.
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#26 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 02:00 PM

Ahh, but as etim has already pointed out here, lots of weasel words in those clauses.

Is it 'unreasonable' for the store to check your basket when you check out? To scan every bar code to tally your purchases?

And the 'convenience' of keeping track of every item of your purchase is a service to you, the customer. After all, when you return something, it's all in the computer. Never mind they'll tell you to '^&#( off' if you don't have the paper receipt.

What you do on the internet, believe it or not, is considered PUBLIC.

They aren't rummaging through your belongings or tapping your phone. You shouted it for all to hear. "I wanna know how to fix a #@&* NVidia 1234 card driver" That search (and your clicks through the results) are used to tune future results. And of course the advertisers who pay to get their results placed on top NEED TO KNOW the results were not only seen, but clicked through, or the web search company doesn't get paid. So Joe Bob's bait and tackle and computer parts gets information about you. Of course, a 'Joe-Bob' probably isn't a big threat compared to an Intel/Microsoft/etc. that pays for a similar link, and has a whole section of the corporation dedicated to mining data to make potential customers.

If you don't want your search results trivially tracked with your identity on Google, then don't ever be logged into a google account when you do those searches. The same can be said for Yahoo and Microsoft/MSN/Bing/etc. accounts. All the same corporation behind it, no matter how many service names they obfuscate it with.

You can (and should) always fill out the applications that ask for addresses and contact info with someone else's contact info in the same zip code. Conveniently there are other privacy gutting services on the web that freely give out YOUR name, address, phone number, etc., as well as everyone else's. Different companies, like Verizon vs. Google don't share and compare IP logs among each other. Keep in mind that the feds DO compare such data, so you won't get any privacy from them by falsifying your registration data. Similarly, you can get an instant store discount card with someone else's phone number and address.

You can (and should) make COMPLETELY different email accounts for certain things. These email accounts are almost universally used for 'uniquely' identifying you. Don't bother to anonymize email addresses used for purchase accounts (they have your credit card). But forums? Blogs? Definitely. When you do a web search for (your name) and (your email account), there shouldn't be anything particularly noteworthy.

Not only is this a 'privacy' issue, but this is a career and education issue. The email you give to a college admission and/or potential employer should be CLEAN. When they do a web search on your name and email address (background information checks - AKA 'vetting'), they shouldn't get naked projectile-beer-vomiting pictures of you, and forum rants from 1994. Take a small amount of time and effort to clean up your online reputation. Ask web sites (don't bother with account holders on those sites who will have forgotten their login after a year or so) to remove unflattering content about you. Use PAPER mail and make sure someone has to sign for it, and you get a receipt. If they won't, have a lawyer draft the same letter (relatively cheap), and it will soon be gone. The lawyer's successful letter will give you a good template to use for future 'delete it' demands. If you're fortunate, you'll have a common enough name that there are too many hits from other people to 'bother with' finding other people's pictures of you and stories about you, so just a unique online alias will keep your privacy. If you're unfortunate enough to have a unique name, every little youthful indiscretion may come back to haunt you as your friends (and former friends) post whatever they have on you. If you become 'famous', well you're screwed. Nothing will clean up your online reputation.

The problem with 'privacy' on the web isn't that they're accessing things they're not supposed to. It's that data mining of publicly available (or for sale) 'anonymous' information and turning it into specific details about individuals has been a fine art, and getting more scientific by the day. Even the public U.S. census data has been 'cracked' and shown to yield up private individual information with the right kind of clever cross-referencing.

And the losses are persistent. Just because the 2010 census will be 'more secure' doesn't mean that the 2000 and even 1990 census data can't be used to crack later privacy schemes, nor does it mean that people who do this cracking will be so forthcoming as the academics who announce their findings. The new data can consistently be used to 'refresh' what was already unlocked. The old connections updated. The additional links established.

Oh, and apparently DMV details are as public as property records. Let's not forget them. Every time your new car gets past a certain age, you get flooded by extended warranty offers. Few manufacturers of consumer goods neglect to offer an 'extended' warranty when the current one expires. Few will neglect to resell that information to third parties, where they can get away with it. After all, if they can't scam the $50 off you to extend the warranty on the fridge, they can at least collect $5 from nine or ten others who can try again (and again, and again) to get you to fall for it. What company could ever afford to ignore a revenue stream like that?

No, none of us are individually 'interesting' to the data miners. We're just worth pennies each for adding us to mailing lists. But it's for those same pennies (maybe even fractions of pennies) that they'll violate your 'privacy' and make your every trackable habit and personal detail public for any curious person who DOES care to see.
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#27 User is offline   number6 Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 02:21 PM

I have taken nearly all of the good applicable measures you mention. Good advice.
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#28 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 03:42 PM

Thanks...

And a little little more ranting...

If you fear your online 'calendar data' will be compromised/abused, there's no need to ever post details. All you really need is a time and reminder.

'Dr. 3:00pm' is just as informative to you on the day of the appointment as 'Dr. Spazz, Gynecologist 3:00pm at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. to look at burning rash.'

No need for last names with birthdays.

No need for full names on virtually anything. Especially not your own email address. If they can't tell which particular 'dave' goes with 'evildave@' (and there are lots of 'evildave@' that aren't me, BTW), they're not someone I wanted to have the email address to begin with. It makes the phishing that much phishier when they don't have your last name to plug into the scam letter.

When INVASIVELY asked for my birthday, I give the wrong day. If it's a credit application or contract level of data, give the right birthday, since the purchase/credit/job/etc. will be rejected when compared to known birthday. If it's just part of a form that only wanted an email address, you probably won't even get the right year from me. Knowing I'm between 35 and 45 is plenty close enough for 'legitimate' market research. Knowing my exact date of birth isn't.

For instance, if all you have is 'John Brown', you don't have a unique individual. If you have John Brown, born January 12th, 1980, then you almost certainly have that name narrowed down to an individual. Protect your birthday like you would your social security number. Now that you're aware of this, you'll notice it.

Similarly, even with your first name, a zip code (often identifiable from the IP address) and a CORRECT birthday, it's probably all anyone needs to identify YOU individually, or within 2~3 people if you're in a very big city. Picking YOU out from 2~3 people, given other accurate details is a lot easier than picking out a 'Dave' when cross-referencing databases. Even first name + zip might be enough if you live in the middle of nowhere.

Any three or more points of data can narrow you down to an individual with a simple database query. If someone with a warrant is trying to track you down, you will fail to obfuscate your tracks online due simply to IP logs (assuming you do web browsing from home and/or mix your routine browsing (check email, etc.) with the same machine you do 'naughty' things), but what it WILL do is deter snoops who are amassing big for-sale databases for fractions of pennies per name. After all, if there's any sleuthing required, they simply 'fail' and go on to the next. They can't afford to put in the labor.

The problem with 'privacy' is that ever more of the 'sleuthing' is being done automatically. As computational power, storage and speed increases, cross-referencing merely a few hundred million known records about people to identify you from ever sparser points of data becomes possible. At the same time, the subtlety and ingenuity of queries hard-coded into the privacy-raping systems goes up exponentially. The small crumbs you leave behind, and even the habitual sequence with which you do things can eventually identify you more thoroughly than your fingerprints.

Does Google know too much about you? Probably. But so does everyone else.

You have to ask yourself what it is you want to keep private?

Most of you are probably plain vanilla, doing everything that everyone else is doing, all the time, the way everyone else does it. There probably aren't any individuals interested in anything that you do that have access to the data (or enough money to buy it) that you're worrying about. All most of your 'privacy' issues will end up influencing is what kind of pop-up ads and direct mailings and other forms of solicitation that you receive.

If you stay away from 'ilovealqaeda.com' and 'rapeinnocentbabies.com' type sites, you probably won't end up on any sort of 'watch list', not that pop-up ads won't force your browser to hit them just to cover other people's tracks.

This brings us full circle to the message to our most paranoid readers: How much more prominent and suspicious you seem by taking measures to protect your privacy among the teeming millions who are unaware of it. The very measures you take to hide your tracks can make your tracks all the more prominent and 'interesting'.
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#29 User is offline   number6 Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 04:27 PM

Good post, as usual, ~105699]
A site you might find useful is [FakeNameGenerator.com
. It does a lot of what you mentioned automatically.
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#30 User is offline   johnwalterman Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 09:09 PM

OK...is it just me..or is Google getting too big??? I liked it better when it was just Search, Froogle, and GMail.

All this extra crap is making me get sick of Google....I don't want to see Google everywhere I go....I don't want my phone to run the Google operating system, let alone my PC, and I sure as hell do not want some watered down browser like Chrome.

Computers are NOT just for internet, and it's a pretty lame idea to have an operating system that is just for internet...there are so many other things I do on the computer! And there are places where WiFi is VERY slow...so it would be quicker to write something on Word than wait for the internet to load Google Docs.
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#31 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 10:19 PM

You probably don't want APPLE to own that whole market, and DEFINITELY nobody wants MICRO$UCK to own it. I mean nobody with a shred of self respect.

If Google steps up and makes a decent, 'standard' Linux client platform that gets shipped out on a lot of machines, so much the better. Linux will win eventually anyway, and they're just getting in on it as it takes off. At least the client will be OPEN SOURCE and transparent. Not that the back-end would be.

It's not as if you couldn't install Firefox as your very first task with your new machine. Or any of the other thousands of Linux packages available. Maybe you like Mozilla's old browser better?

Actually, with an embedded system, it might well be the case that you can't. Hard to say what you'll be able to do (and not be able to do) at this stage when it's pure vapor.
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#32 User is offline   fjpoblam Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 05:53 AM

I've seen the suggestion "if you don't like GoOgle, just don't use it" many times before, including from GoOgle themselves. Problem with it is, GoOgle is built in to so many products. For example, GoOgle is built in as the irrevocable search engine for the Safari browser's search bar, and the default search engine for Mozilla browsers' search bars (Camino, Firefox) and for Opera. One must go to EXTREME effort not to use GoOgle. Get real.
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#33 User is offline   BGG001 Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 08:18 AM

I don't use Google. It's not exactly a hard task to change your default search provider for any single browser. I think I clicked my mouse 5 times to change it to something else using Opera...that was so EXTREME.
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#34 User is offline   BGG001 Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 08:35 AM

I don't use Google. It's not exactly a hard task to change your default search provider for any single browser. I think I clicked my mouse 5 times to change it to something else using Opera...that was so EXTREME.
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#35 User is offline   fjpoblam Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 08:41 AM

BGG001 - Yes, I didn't say it couldn't be done, on Opera and Mozilla browsers (though my grandma and mom-in-law haven't). But try it on Safari without downloading and installing unapproved plugins. All I'm saying is, it's bundled, as IE is on Windows.

And Mozilla got in trouble over their non-profit status for the level to which GoOgle is supporting their research...so how much is using Mozilla, using GoOgle?
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#36 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 11:58 AM

http://www.macosxhin...030514035516436

You know, for an OS that windoze fanbois claim is 'just for clueless twits', I find that there is just as much script editing as any Linux distro.

And there are no 'unapproved plugins' for the OS X any more than there are for Windoze. OK, Windoze is far more permissive for malware/virus writers, but I'll let you windoze folks keep that level of permissiveness.

Apparently something called 'saft' will do the script tinkering for you, if you're a pussy about editing 'things', and allergic to money.
http://haoli.dnsalia...Saft/index.html

Oh, and something that uses the 'Adblock Plus' (same as Firefox) database is available for free, too.
http://burgersoftwar...n/safariadblock
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#37 User is offline   fjpoblam Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 01:38 PM

Thanks for your valuable input, evildave. Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I'm not a windoze fanboy myself...And that has nothing to do with what I was saying. I have a MacOSX box (typing there now), and a couple Windoze boxes, a Ubundle box, and work during the day (have for 30 years) system programming an IBM mainframe, so, I'm not too much a "wuss" about doing a little machine-level language programming. In turn, try a little English-level programming, on your mind. It might help read my comments.

A main point is, use of GoOgle should be an opt-in experience, not something which internet users must make an effort from the beginning to avoid. With all due respect, I hope I have made it more clear to you.
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#38 User is offline   rizarsurf Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 03:55 PM

Your ISP knows more about you than Google.
Anytime you go to the internet, Google or not, your ISP tracks every website you go to, every video that you watch and every file that you download, even if Google has nothing to do with it.
Microsoft knows more about you than your ISP and Google.
Microsfot has access to all your web surfing history, tax returns, every program that you have installed on your computer, legit or not, every video that you've watched, and even every single file that sits on any and all of your hard drives, local and networked.
Microsoft and ISPs have been collecting this data for years and continue collecting it to this day, and I don't hear you complaining about them.
Intel has been selling chips that have unique identifiers for your processors for years.
ISPs want to implement deep packet inspection. That is much worse than anything Google can do.
Google knows what you do online only if you go to Google sites or you are signed in to Google and don't disable web history. You can disable it.
Google's Chrome OS will be open source and it will be easy to see if there are collection mechanisms, where Microsoft, you have no idea what and how much they're taking. Knowing them, they're collecting every single thing possible about you.
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#39 User is offline   Evildave Icon

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 06:29 PM

Well, I suppose you could say that about the Windows operating system: It should be optional.

Instead, manufacturers are locked in by pricing agreements. Either pay full retail for every windoze OS license and have your computer be $100 more expensive than your competition, in order to have the flexibility to give customers the option to have what they may or may not want, or ship ONLY windoze. Ever.

So Safari searches with Google by default? Would any self respecting Apple user would want to use something like MICROSOFT 'Bung'?

Possibly. But it's not impossible to change the search engine. Most likely Google and Apple have mutually beneficial agreements in place to have their search engine and gmail/calendar integration in Apple OS X.
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#40 User is offline   Kimcool Icon

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 05:09 AM

I see the subheading "Google's Censoring Me (in China)" but how in the heck is Google censoring what I do or say or produce on my computer (in China)? Misleading.
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