[Kahuna]

@wintard

For the record, I welcome disagreements. It makes life more interesting...and I often get a chance to prove the other person wrong.

Now, in this case, my qualifier was "currently offered." The record for the competition is not a particularly good one. For more than two years, every smartphone to come down the pike was to be an "iPhone killer." None even made a bruise on Apple.

The one that should have had some impact was the Palm Pre, designed by ex-Apple engineers and copied from the first generation iPhone. After the initial flurry of sales from loyal Palmistas, sales have tapered off to a quiet 25-30,000 units a week. Not good enough for either Palm or Sprint to release sales figures.

As to what the future may bring, it is anyone's guess. I would only point out that Google's claim to fame is with its excellent search engine and Gmail (both of which are my favorites). Google does not have a track record creating software for outstanding cellphones.

I have no problem with Samsung. They make pretty good products, but not one of them is a show-stopping smartphone. I see Samsung as a company that makes high-quality parts and is one of Apple's vendors. However, Apple is not vulnerable because every one of the parts it uses can be multi-sourced. Should Samsung arbitrarily refuse to sell Apple parts, there would be dire legal consequences. But Apple plans ahead and recently contracted to buy $500,000,000 worth of NAND chips from one of its suppliers.

As for the others, I am waiting for them to show me what they've got.

[WinTard]

@ Kahuna,

All points well taken. I too appreciate a good and vigorous discussion, forcing all the participants to expand their common views, pushing the envelope. As for the Achille's heel weakness of Apple not making their own chips, I didn't mean some vendor would break a contract with Apple, moreso that Original Equipment Manufacturers (chip makers), would design their next mobile telephony chip(s) towards an open architecture such as Google Android's. Making all the devices interoperable. Thus pushing the envelope of the state-of-the-art away from what it is today...

~~~~~~~~~~~
When everyone thinks alike not much gets thought.
~ Johan Norberg

Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning.
~ Benjamin Franklin

We are approaching a new age of synthesis. Knowledge cannot be merely a degree or a skill... it demands a broader vision, capabilities in critical thinking and logical deduction without which we cannot have constructive progress.
~ Li Ka Shing

The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
~Joseph Joubert, 1754-1824, French Moralist and Essayist
:)

[Kahuna]

"would design their next mobile telephony chip(s) towards an open architecture such as Google Android's. Making all the devices interoperable. Thus pushing the envelope of the state-of-the-art away from what it is today."

You make an excellent and insightful point, and Apple is mindful of that possibility. So, in anticipation of exactly that happening, more than a year ago Apple bought a small CPU-design company to make chips for the iPhone and ipod:



According to recent unconfirmed information (Apple never confirms anything), there are two design teams at work at PA Semi: one to produce a chip for the iPhone...and the other for the chip that goes into the iTablet.



Apple doesn't bother to build a better mousetrap. Instead, it builds a better lock.

[WinTard]

Kahuna said:

Apple doesn't bother to build a better mousetrap. Instead, it builds a better lock.

You too make for an excellent and insightful discussion! Thank you.

I remember reading about Apple buying some semiconductor design firm. Based on the links you provided, they sure have serious credentials...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.A._Semi

P.A. Semi (originally "Palo Alto Semiconductor"1]) was a fabless semiconductor company founded in Santa Clara, California in 2003 by Daniel W. Dobberpuhl (B.S. EE 1967 University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign[2][3]) who was the lead designer for the DEC Alpha 21064 and StrongARM processors. The company employed a 150-person engineering team which includes people who have previously worked on processors like Itanium, Opteron and UltraSPARC. Apple Inc acquired P.A. Semi for $278 million in April 2008.[4]

It somehow makes me think of the likes of (back then) [Toronto's ATI Technologies, and Montreal's Matrox. Both designers of dedicated (kick ass) semiconductors, yet fabless...

All the best to Apple in their new venture! Time will tell what they come up with. I still think though, that open-standards are the way of the future. At least in Utopia!

~~~~~~~~~~
We can believe that we know where the world should go. But unless we're in touch with our customers, our model of the world can diverge from reality. There's no substitute for innovation, of course, but innovation is no substitute for being in touch, either.
~ Steve Ballmer, CEO Microsoft?

The best mind-altering drug is the truth.
~ Lily Tomlin

Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.
~ Bill Gates

Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.
~ Steve Jobs

[Kahuna]

"I still think though, that open-standards are the way of the future. At least in Utopia!"

A very dangerous prospect, leaving Apple with no competitive advantage. Crack open a Zune and most of the innards are identical to an iPod. Apple and Microsoft bought the same parts from the same suppliers.

With its own customized parts, Apple can lower its costs, improve performance and block competitors from building copycat products. Not a bad strategy and one spelled out in detail here.

[WinTard]

Kahuna said:

"I still think though, that open-standards are the way of the future. At least in Utopia!"

A very dangerous prospect, leaving Apple with no competitive advantage. Crack open a Zune and most of the innards are identical to an iPod. Apple and Microsoft bought the same parts from the same suppliers.

With its own customized parts, Apple can lower its costs, improve performance and block competitors from building copycat products. Not a bad strategy and one spelled out in detail here.

Good point, but without foundry, PA Semi will have to get their chips manufactured elsewhere. Thus all their IP is embedded, and known to whoever will actually um, manufacture or produce the semiconductor. Under contractual NDA terms, of course!

In case you didn't know, I'd like to bring to your attention that Apple, Microsoft, HP, Dell, Wii, and many other 'branded' electronic products are all manufactured under one and the same roof?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn

Foxconn (???) is the trade name of the Taiwan based firm Hon Hai Precision Industry Co. (Ltd.) (LSE: HHPD). Foxconn is the largest manufacturer of electronics and computer components worldwide, and mainly manufactures on contract to other companies. Among other things, Foxconn produces the Mac mini, the iPod and the iPhone for Apple Inc.; Intel-branded motherboards for Intel Corp.; various orders for American computer manufacturers Dell and Hewlett-Packard; the PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 for Sony; the Wii for Nintendo;the Xbox 360 for Microsoft, cell phones for Motorola, the Amazon Kindle, and Cisco equipment.2][3][4][5]

The company was founded in 1974 as a manufacturer of plastic products (notably connectors) by Terry Gou, who remains its CEO. It has been listed on the Taiwan Stock Exchange since 1991.

The company opened its first manufacturing plant in China in 1988, a factory in Shenzhen that is now the company's largest, with more than 270,000 employees.[3] Beginning in 1994, Foxconn purchased development centres in the United States and Japan. In 1997 and 1998, Foxconn established additional manufacturing plants in the UK and the US. As of 2007, the company and its subsidiaries owned plants in the Czech Republic, Hungary, Mexico, Brazil, India and Vietnam.[3]

It's all made in China, by the same manufacturer and assembly line... You can see there are no secrets, anywhere... Or for that matter different electronic components? Food for thought?

And actually Foxconn makes more money per year, than Apple... Perhaps explaining some of the USD $2.13 Trillion Dollar surplus (cash) of the Chinese Economy? Today? For more please see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=2.13trillionsurplus

Of course, Foxconn is but one Chinese manufacturer. There are the likes of Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Elite, Gigabyte, MSI, nVidia, SuperMicro, and most if not all other motherboard manufacturers, all competing for a piece of our dollars. That is a thriving industry, isn't it? Even Intel doesn't manufacture Intel motherboards. Neither does Apple. Foxconn does it for them. The Sun Microsystems we have at work are made by Acer, aka Gateway, eMachines...

Perhaps this puts a new perspective on the 'higher tolerance parts' mentioned elsewhere in these forums? And the ubiquitous 'Made In China' label found on so many things? Hopefully, in Utopia, Industrial Espionage is a non-issue. However in the real world, including North America, alas, it is reality...

~~~~~~~~~~
The best mind-altering drug is the truth.
~ Lily Tomlin

-----
>!http://www.sun.com/images/l0/l0v3sunblade-t6340ovrvw.jpg!
http://www.sun.com/servers/blades/t6340/specs.xml
Key Specifications
Two-socket, 6 or 8-core UltraSPARC T2 Plus processor
Up to 128 simultaneous execution threads
One floating-point processor per core and integrated, on-chip crypto accelerator
32 DIMM slots with maximum memory capacity of 256 GB

Running [Solaris of course!

PS: I'd venture to say Sun hardware and software is of higher quality (and price) than Apple... Yet still 'Made In China'... JMHO.

[rem736]

i say that we just ignore everything that David Coursey writes. everything he writes is designed to draw in an audience by inflaming them.

[Kahuna]

"It's all made in China, by the same manufacturer and assembly line... You can see there are no secrets, anywhere... Or for that matter different electronic components? Food for thought?"

The Chinese take secrecy very seriously. Recently, a Chinese worker managed to lose an iPhone prototype. His only recourse was to go to the roof of a tall building and take a dive from it.

Jumped? Pushed? Does it make a difference? It will make other workers more careful.

[WinTard]

I'm glad to be living in North America! The land of the free!

(Sorry for the OT)...

[backbuster]

It's all made in China, by the same manufacturer and assembly line... You can see there are no secrets, anywhere... Or for that matter different electronic components? Food for thought?



As is the case with many industries one manufacturer will produce a product for a number of companies. Companies will place an order with the manufacturer and specify the specs and the quality of the components used. For example Intel may order a mobo with cheaper components to keep the price down and Apple may (notice I said may) order their mobo with more expensive components to keep the quality up. When the production run is set up the components that the customer has ordered are installed, often on the same assembly line as other companies. To assume that two companies products are the same because they come out of the same factory or off the same assembly line is wrong they are likely to be very different in specs and quality.

[Kahuna]

"To assume that two companies products are the same because they come out of the same factory or off the same assembly line is wrong they are likely to be very different in specs and quality."

Correct. Almost all components are a commodity that anyone can buy to build a copycat product. The only way to prevent the manufacture of similar products is to customize a key component, make it proprietary, with enhanced functionality and make it less expensive than existing components.

That is why Apple bought PA Semi.

[leicaman]

To call the iPhone's success "hype" is naive in the extreme.

[WinTard]

leicaman said:

To call the iPhone's success "hype" is naive in the extreme.

Suit yourself. I think it is naive not to see through the hype and FUD that Apple generates...

~~~~~~~~~~~
Risk is what you make of it.
~ Kenneth Griffin

Your premium brand had better be delivering something special, or it's not going to get the business.
~ Warren Buffett

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
~ Warren Buffett

Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing.
~ Warren Buffett

[WinTard]

backbuster said:

> It's all made in China, by the same manufacturer and assembly line... You can see there are no secrets, anywhere... Or for that matter different electronic components? Food for thought?

>

Quote

As is the case with many industries one manufacturer will produce a product for a number of companies. Companies will place an order with the manufacturer and specify the specs and the quality of the components used. For example Intel may order a mobo with cheaper components to keep the price down and Apple may (notice I said may) order their mobo with more expensive components to keep the quality up. When the production run is set up the components that the customer has ordered are installed, often on the same assembly line as other companies. To assume that two companies products are the same because they come out of the same factory or off the same assembly line is wrong they are likely to be very different in specs and quality.

I agree with all you say in general. I don't agree with the assertion that Apple spec's higher quality parts than HP or Dell. I'd require some independent substantiation, proving that assertion...

It seems to me all manufacturers have some kind of warranty. It seems to me they all want enough quality not to have to do the job twice, and have to repair or recall things. Why? Because it is always cheaper to do the job right, once. Thus all the components quality must be of similar reliability and tolerance, to withstand typically one to three years of 'careless' use. Basically be tough enough to last.

My experience with Asus is outstanding, going back to at least 13 years of continuous and reliable service. I still own: Dell Latitude CP/I from 1998, Dell Inspiron 300m from 2004, and a Dell Latitude D830 from 2008. All running flawlessly. All running on original parts, (except for batteries). Zero problems.

That tells me that Dell uses quality enough electronic components to last easily 11 years of continuous duty. Perhaps not better than Apple, but certainly not below par either...

~~~~~~~~~~~~
The best warranty is the one never used...

[Kahuna]

"Suit yourself. I think it is naive not to see through the hype and FUD that Apple generates..."

Cheap shot and you are wrong.

No company can sell 40 MILLION units of a product based on a con job. There are people with first and second generation iPhones who are back buying the third. Have all the reviewers also fallen for the "hype"? Has the competition, desperately trying to copy the iPhone, also deceived itself?

There may be those who actively resent Apple's success. Apple doesn't care. Apple is laughing all the way to the bank, a place where it already has $31 BILLION of profits on deposit.

[Kahuna]

" I don't agree with the assertion that Apple spec's higher quality parts than HP or Dell. I'd require some independent substantiation, proving that assertion...It seems to me all manufacturers have some kind of warranty. It seems to me they all want enough quality not to have to do the job twice, and have to repair or recall things. Why? Because it is always cheaper to do the job right, once. Thus all the components quality must be of similar reliability and tolerance, to withstand typically one to three years of 'careless' use. Basically be tough enough to last."

Fair enough. Those may be your "feelings", the FACTS are otherwise:

How about customer satisfaction? "Apple was awarded 94 per cent in the 'Customer score' section, with Sony in second spot with 80 per cent and Novatech in third with 79 per cent."



And when things go wrong, which company scores highest in customer service?

" With a score of 65 percent or less considered poor, Dell ranked lowest in consumer satisfaction with 58 percent. HP and its associated brand Compaq also received poor rankings of 64 and 63 percent, respectively. Gateway squeaked by at 66 percent. Apple was the lone vendor with a good 80 percent satisfaction rating."

"Further corroborating this trend, more than 4,500 laptop owners who read Consumer Reports also held court regarding tech support. Apple claimed a gratifying reader score of 83 percent, with Dell at 60, and HP at 48."



And Apple ranks highest year after year after year. Worth remembering the next time you buy a computer.

[backbuster]

I used Apple only as an example only in my post (probably should have used Asus). I was trying to show that because two companies have their products made in the same factory it doesn't mean they are the same. We would have to have the manufacturing specs for all the components in the product to make that determination. Two companies product from the same factory may be very different on the other hand they may be exactly the same. As Wintard said we would have to have independent substantiation, to prove any assertions about the specs and quality. At one time I worked in a manufacturing facility that made products for a number of companies. Two companies would often order the exact same product the only difference would be the labeling and company colors, one of the companies would sell their product for substantially more asserting that it was of better quality and specs than the lower priced product that was exactly the same. We cannot determine the quality and specs of a product by its price or where it is manufactured

[WinTard]

Kahuna you seem pretty emotional about your obvious bias for Apple? Regardless of brand loyalty, be careful who or what you follow blindly... Keep your options open, for your own sake.

~~~~~~~~~~
Listen to all, plucking a feather from every passing goose, but follow no one absolutely.
{Chinese Proverb}

[WinTard]

I 100% agree with you Sir!

:)

~~~~~~~~~~~
The only certainty is uncertainty.
{Chinese Proverb}

Backups are worthless; Restores are priceless.
~ WSantiago, IT pro.

The only constant is change.
~ Confucius

Persist and it resists.
~ Lao Tzu

The words of truth are always paradoxical.
~ Lao Tzu

[Kahuna]

" because two companies have their products made in the same factory it doesn't mean they are the same. We would have to have the manufacturing specs for all the components in the product to make that determination."

Would you? The evidence may be circumstance but it is very real: Macs have the highest reliability rating of any computers. People will pay a premium for quality.

People with money are not stupid and there is a good reason why "Apple has 91% of high-end computer market."

"Apple must be doing something right to go from, in the US retail premium PC market, 66 percent revenue share in first quarter 2008 to 91 percent at the end of second quarter 2009." In the orst recession since WWII.