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"Evil Steve" Drives Apple's Problems

#41 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 08:36 PM

JeffAHayes said:


Trust me, Smax, if Apple tried this, not only would they sell a lot of extra copies of OS X, they'd end up selling MORE MACS in the long run, too, as a lot of people who became more familiar with OS X on the PC suddenly decided they'd rather have it on a Mac (maybe they could do it in some way that made it still PREFERABLE to have it on a Mac?).




The problem is that history does not support that. Apple has done "clones" (i.e. license the Mac OS to run on computers made by others) and their Mac sales dropped dramatically...enough that many thought Apple was toast. Yes, they may have sold more overall copies of the Mac OS, but they ended up making WAY less money as they were in the business of selling computers, not OS licenses.
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#42 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 08:43 PM

JeffAHayes said:



As for it costing them more to SUPPORT IT, Microsoft charges for support beyond about 30 days or so. I see no reason Apple couldn't do the same, or simply say any OS X installed on non-Apple hardware comes with NO free support period... If you're paying $75/hour, or whatever it runs, well, that's not really hurting their bottom line now, is it?




It is more than just support after the sale, but also support/development prior to the sale. Microsoft spends considerable time and resources making sure that Windows will work with the wide variety of hardware that it might run on. Apple only currently needs to do that with computers they sell. If they started allowing the Mac OS on way more options, then it would dramatically change their development/support (as in make the Mac OS support that hardware) of the Mac OS.

And even if you say non-Apple hardware comes with no free support, it still costs them money to answer those calls to tell the person "I am sorry but you have to pay for support". And then there is the marketing "cost" (i.e. "bad press" when those people who bought the Mac OS to run on their custom desktop find out that they have to pay for Apple to support their product.

In the end, do you not think that if Apple really thought that they would make more money allowing the Mac OS to run on non-Apple hardware that they would do it? After all, Apple is still in the business of making money.
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#43 User is offline   JeffAHayes 

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:42 PM

This would be WAY different than the licensing business, which I agree was a MAJOR disaster for Apple, because they DID have competition from "clone makers" so the sales of "real Macs" were greatly diluted. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a sort of Apple version of Parallels for Windows.

And NO, I don't think Apple would necessarily do something just because it would mean more money for the company IF it also meant changing its tightly-controlled, almost Xenophobic sort of business view of the world that appears to stem from Steve Jobs (as WinTard said, they're sitting on $28 billion in cash right now... On the one hand, in the current economy, well, that's a very nice nest egg and hedge against the uncertainty; on the other hand, properly invested in new product launches and marketing that could easily become $42 or $56 billion!).

The more I think about it, the more I think that the Good Steve Jobs who brought so much innovation and creativity to the world by starting Apple AND by reviving it during the last few years is being replaced not necessarily by an "Evil Steve Jobs" but by a "Stagnant Steve Jobs," by a Steve Jobs who's just hit his OWN glass (silicon?) ceiling. I think he really LOVED IT when Apple was just BIG ENOUGH to be good enough to be "told ya so," but not so big that they had to please everyone. Now they're getting big enough they're going to start having to please everyone, just like Microsoft, and that's a very different ballgame. I just don't think Steve is up to the Job(s) (pun intended).

Jeff Hayes
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#44 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 12:28 AM

JeffAHayes said:


This would be WAY different than the licensing business, which I agree was a MAJOR disaster for Apple, because they DID have competition from "clone makers" so the sales of "real Macs" were greatly diluted. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a sort of Apple version of Parallels for Windows.



It is still the same issue. If a consumer can buy Windows computer and then run the Mac OS on it, whether natively or in a virtual machine, then why would they buy a Mac computer from Apple. The point is that the Mac OS is a major reason why many people by computers from Apple. If they can run the Mac OS on non-Apple computers, then there WILL be fewer people who buy computers from Apple. This is same basic mechanism as clones, even if it is not identically the same.

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And NO, I don't think Apple would necessarily do something just because it would mean more money for the company IF it also meant changing its tightly-controlled, almost Xenophobic sort of business view of the world that appears to stem from Steve Jobs (as WinTard said, they're sitting on $28 billion in cash right now... On the one hand, in the current economy, well, that's a very nice nest egg and hedge against the uncertainty; on the other hand, properly invested in new product launches and marketing that could easily become $42 or $56 billion!).



All smart companies have cash reserves for when times are bad. If Apple followed your advice and started letting the Mac OS run on non-Apple hardware, they would likely be thankful that they have such large cash reserves.

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The more I think about it, the more I think that the Good Steve Jobs who brought so much innovation and creativity to the world by starting Apple AND by reviving it during the last few years is being replaced not necessarily by an "Evil Steve Jobs" but by a "Stagnant Steve Jobs," by a Steve Jobs who's just hit his OWN glass (silicon?) ceiling. I think he really LOVED IT when Apple was just BIG ENOUGH to be good enough to be "told ya so," but not so big that they had to please everyone. Now they're getting big enough they're going to start having to please everyone, just like Microsoft, and that's a very different ballgame. I just don't think Steve is up to the Job(s) (pun intended).



I do not think Steve Jobs is perfect or has all the answers. Personally, I think he has been caught up in his own press and believes way too much that "he knows best". Apple has started doing stupid stuff. Most have it has been small and likely does not directly hurt themselves too much...but all the small stupid stuff may catch up to them. Some of Apple's "problems" are inevitable as they grow. It is just a fact of life that as a company has more and more users, it becomes tougher and tougher to please them all...especially if you are a control freak company like Apple and want to limit variety in your product line. At some point, Apple will have to make a choice between future growth and limited product lines that they tightly control. Beyond that, they have started to believe that they know what is best and eliminate stuff (matte screens, Firewire ports, removable batteries, etc) that reasonably large groups of loyal users like and then "blow off" those users' complaints. They have very recently shown signs of starting to realized they goofed on some stuff and started listening again (putting Firewire back on the 13" laptop and giving the option of a non-glossy screen on 15" laptops).

Any company is only as good as how much they listen to their users. The more they blow off user comments, the faster they find themselves eventually in trouble. Apple is by no means in "deep dudu" yet, but they need to get smarter about some things or they might find themselves there in a handful or so years.
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#45 User is offline   davesmall 

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 06:00 AM

Anyone care to bet on this horse race?
In lane 1 we have Sweaty Ballmer, and in lane 2 we have Steve Jobs.
Is there a company in America that wouldn't trade their current CEO for a healthy Steve Jobs in a heartbeat? If there is a company like that then the Board of Directors needs to be replaced.
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#46 Guest_dcornibe_*

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:30 AM

No, no, NO! If Apple charges $100 MORE than the already steep $130 price for full retail version of their OS, then the PC buyer is not coming out ahead. It's like buying the more expensive Apple computer. Why can't Apple just let the PEOPLE take their own risk when they buy/configure their own computers and software? Or is even the concept of freedom totally gone already in America? People should buy whatever they buy at their own risk. Now, if Apple's so concerned about quality (personally, I think they're more concerned with profit), they can do what companies like Avid have done (Avid is a longtime manufacturer of professional/broadcast video edit systems) - have a list of certified/tested hardware that works best with Mac OS X, maybe a second tier list of merely functional hardware, etc. But give the consumer more than ONE choice. And let the consumer build a Mac in a standard ATX tower, so that he/she can upgrade the hard drive (Western Digital and other brands are pretty darn good), upgrade the memory (last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with Crucial, Corsair, or Kingston memory), and even upgrade the processor (we all know Apple uses Intel, so why can't I upgrade my Core Duo to a quad core or, here's a thought, even use AMD chips which are less expensive but still rock solid in reliability) - in my tower-based consumer Mac? The answer is greed, plain and simple. Apple has made super profits from bamboozling people into thinking their hardware is oh so much better, when it's about the same - especially on the inside. Mayyybe the case is a bit better made, better mfg. techniques, etc., but under the hood it's the same electronics as any quality brand electronics in a PC. So Apple, your OS is very good, so let us all put them on regular PC's and take the risk. You can make your money with tech support if there are problems, but I suspect your OS is so good you'll likely be the tech equivalent of the Maytag repairman.
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#47 User is offline   nonseq 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:05 AM

I hate to say this but I think Coursey is spot on and I am an Apple fan. The more persuasive and erudite in here might call me a fanboy or fanboi which, of course, the the most powerful argument of all.

Jobs does alienate many. He seems to rule with an iron hand. As a result the products, for the most part, have been very well made and the interface terrific. Sure there have been some missteps and really bad decisions but all in all the Apple cachet has been earned.

I work in both the windows and apple worlds everyday. I wish that it were otherwise but our firm already was committed to windows long before I arrived.

I've worked with every version of Windows since 1.0 along with just about every other OS available.

I like technology that works. How quickly everyone forgets that Apple virtually invented the personal computer and the IBM PC was created in light of Apple's (Woz's) early vision.

Long ago the head of our PC service dept told me that if everyone had an Apple, he would be out of a job. That's a bit of an overstatement but contains a kernel of truth.

There have been some doggy Apple products and I've owned some of them. Remember the Apple III? The dark times of Job's exile brought us closer to the MS/PC model to the detriment of the company and the product line. The licensed boxes were a total disaster.

Apple does need to maintain tight controls but they don't need to be jerks about it. Since my real concern is technology that works, I would rather have Jobs and company be jerks than to see the blue screen of death at every turn.

Mark this Tech Inciter column as insightful. Thanks Dave.
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#48 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:52 AM

nonseq said:


Mark this Tech Inciter column as insightful. Thanks Dave.


Or would that be "Mark this Tech Inciter column as inciteful"

Sorry...just could not help myself.

(and yes, I know inciteful is not a real word, but could not help passing on the obvious pun)
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#49 User is offline   JeffAHayes 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

I do a lot of high-end multi-tasking on my PCs and I rarely see a Blue Screen of Death (and that's a really silly term, anyway, because it generally just means a reboot). I rarely saw it in XP, and I've rarely seen it in Vista -- especially since SP1 and beyond. It DOES happen occasionally, but very rarely -- usually a "memory exception error," and I just do a "safe boot" to make sure all the system's systems are reset to normal before doing a normal reboot and I generally don't have another problem for at least six months to a year.

Of course I keep antivirus and firewall running and updated, and I do regular system maintenance, but I did all that when I had a Mac, too. Those of you who say you don't need antivirus software on a Mac -- I refuse to pull punches here -- you're IDIOTS. Macs DO have viruses, just not as many, because since there are fewer users there are fewer crooks looking to exploit the platform... BUT those few that DO come around usually tend to be REALLY nasty and I NEVER ran a Mac online without antivirus and firewall... Even just exchanging floppies, prior to going online, I got the MS Word files with the MS Word virus on them (not a nasty virus, but an annoying one).

I'magonna GIT me OS X somehow -- either a cheap Mac, or figure out how to run it on "Big Bertha" here, just to see what all the fuss is about. Frankly, when I switched back to Windows after OS 9.1, I really didn't see that much (other than the few issues I have with not being able to type certain symbols on the keyboard). Of course OS X had been out 3 years by then, but I upgraded my Mac just BEFORE they came out with it and the processor wasn't OS X compatible, so I just never "got there."

Jeff Hayes
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#50 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:04 PM

JeffAHayes said:


Of course I keep antivirus and firewall running and updated, and I do regular system maintenance, but I did all that when I had a Mac, too. Those of you who say you don't need antivirus software on a Mac -- I refuse to pull punches here -- you're IDIOTS. Macs DO have viruses, just not as many, because since there are fewer users there are fewer crooks looking to exploit the platform... BUT those few that DO come around usually tend to be REALLY nasty and I NEVER ran a Mac online without antivirus and firewall... Even just exchanging floppies, prior to going online, I got the MS Word files with the MS Word virus on them (not a nasty virus, but an annoying one).



I agree with your sentiment...I currently run anti-virus and firewalls on my Macs (and thus, get snickered at by many in the Mac community) just like I run anti-virus and firewalls on my Windows computers.

While you are correct that there are Mac viruses out there, the only known viruses in the "wild" for the Mac are for OS 9 or earlier. To my knowledge, there have been no known viruses in the "wild" for OS X. There are "proof of concept" examples. And there has been no known instances of someone using Mac OS X getting infected with a "wild" virus and suffering any harm as far as I know.

This does not mean that Macs are invulnerable or that someday they might have serious virus issues, but it has not happened yet with Mac OS X. And that is why the vast majority of Mac OS X users do not use anti-virus and snicker at the likes of me who do.
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#51 User is offline   JeffAHayes 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:48 PM

I wasn't aware there hadn't yet been ANY actual viruses in the OS X environment, Smax... That's quite an accomplishment that either Apple has built a VERY "bulletproof" OS or there just hasn't been much interest (which I don't believe, so Apple must have REALLY hit OS X out of the ballpark). All the same, I'm STILL with you, and nothing lasts forever. Sooner or later, YOU'LL get the last laugh at your snickering friends.

When I get another Mac, I'll be getting antivirus and firewall with it, too. Based on what you just said, though, I might go with the least expensive option, however.

Jeff Hayes
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#52 User is offline   smax013 

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:09 PM

JeffAHayes said:


I wasn't aware there hadn't yet been ANY actual viruses in the OS X environment, Smax... That's quite an accomplishment that either Apple has built a VERY "bulletproof" OS or there just hasn't been much interest (which I don't believe, so Apple must have REALLY hit OS X out of the ballpark).


Personally, I believe it is a bit of both...how much of each is entirely up to debate.
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#53 User is offline   bssapp 

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:02 AM

Yeah, I'm sure the Execs at apple are taking money baths and just swimming in it like scrooge mcduck...not spending it. Think before you write.
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#54 User is offline   bssapp 

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:22 AM

Apple's entire vertical integration, ability to keep viruses out, and compatability are all based on certain software running on certain hardware. this strict control allows apple products to work very tightly in their environment, even the apple expanded hardware world of today. That's why when someone makes a hackintosh many of the drivers don't work. But MS asks the impossible by trying to run any hardware under the sun in impossible configurations and gives a bloated, system hogging answer. But you think that Apple should repeat the same mistakes as MS and try to please everyone all the time. Someone said something about that I think. Also, getting a MAC virus is a possibliity but so is the earth getting hit by a big rock and killing us all (and if you think the chances are slim, look it up 1:3000 in 2038) take a chance. Even if you do get this mystical magical mac virus it's not like little mites are chewing on the chips in there. Back up your stuff on seperated, external storage (like everyone should because every computer eventually fails). But the chances of you geting a MAC virus on the current OS...you should worry about ants building a colony in there first...it's more likely...so run out and buy a can of bug spray and douse your computer...just in case.
Message was edited by: smax013 - no personal attacks please.

-little to close to home, huh? sorry.
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#55 User is offline   artzy65 

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 11:00 AM

"I'magonna GIT me OS X somehow -- "
A cowpoke oughta git hisself one 'o them thar secondhand apple doohickeys right quick, y'all...

I'm running Leopard 10.5.8 on my 4-year old G4 Powerbook 1.6GHz, and run Panther on G3 iMac/iBook and G3 B/W tower 400MHz (those can also run Tiger with xpostfacto4) and i run Tiger on my 2002 Quicksilver tower G4 800MHz ($249.00CDN btw)

Any flavour of OS X is way better than pre-os x... no system crashes, for one thing... and if any given app freezes or crashes the system itself is unaffected

Yeehaw!





Message was edited by: artzy65
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#56 User is offline   RubenMTZ93 

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:29 PM

I was going to write a comment on here, but it turned into something larger than this article. Bottome line? Apple Nicer image Lower prices = Perfect company to take down Microsoft. Apple as of now = Uncertain future, even with their multi-million iPod line. Me? I'm a Microsoft user all the way, although I'm not saying I wouldn't revert to Mac should the stated requirements come true. As of now? No, thank you, but I prefer $200-$400 perfectly competent Microsoft netbook over a $1000-$1500 MacBook any day, even with all the bugs. After all, that's what anti-viruses are for right? As for Macs, with relatively little protection due to its reputation of being an impenetrable OS, all it takes is one virus to bypass every Mac; Because really, how many of you Mac users have god anti-viruses installed? No need right? Beware, Mac viruses will come. And then I'd like to see all the Windows users saying "Haha there went your one advantage over us." And by all means, hold your breath, it'll be sooner than you think.
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#57 User is offline   JeffAHayes 

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:18 PM

Artzy, someone I know here in town just sent out an email a couple months back to me and a bunch of other folks on his list wanting to sell a fully loaded G4 with monitor and all kinds of software for like $600, but at the time I wasn't interested. My guess is it's gone by now.

But jist ta make you happy, ah might jist have ta hop up on mah donkey an' mosey on ovah there an' sea if'n he still has that li'l ole 'puter... An' if'n ya messes wid my fun'n vernacular agin', ah'll do ya like "The Clint" did those gunslingers what shot at his donkey in that clip you inserted. ]:)

"The Jeff"
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